The Healer Double Standard

Healer DPS isn't actually getting nerfed, it's being increased a lot. Ast is getting 10% increase in potency per minute, even after getting pruned sch is getting a 13% increase, and whm is getting a whopping 25% potency per minute increase. There are fewer buttons sure, but you will do more damage with the new buttons.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

Healer DPS isn't actually getting nerfed, it's being increased a lot. Ast is getting 10% increase in potency per minute, even after getting pruned sch is getting a 13% increase, and whm is getting a whopping 25% potency per minute increase. There are fewer buttons sure, but you will do more damage with the new buttons.

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First off, I'd love to see how you're getting these values.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

even after getting pruned sch is getting a 13% increase,

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After losing so many damage sources (Energy Drain, Shadow Flare, Miasma 2, Bane) I highly doubt this. Especially in the AoE department.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

Healer DPS isn't actually getting nerfed, it's being increased a lot. Ast is getting 10% increase in potency per minute, even after getting pruned sch is getting a 13% increase, and whm is getting a whopping 25% potency per minute increase. There are fewer buttons sure, but you will do more damage with the new buttons.

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We are not talking about dps numbers, we are talking about fun and tools, they could change broil,glare and malefic to have 2000 potency and the problem would still be there

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

We are not talking about dps numbers, we are talking about fun and tools, they could change broil,glare and malefic to have 2000 potency and the problem would still be there

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I agree 100% I just keep seeing people acting like healer DPS is getting removed when actually it's being improved number wise.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

I agree 100% I just keep seeing people acting like healer DPS is getting removed when actually it's being improved number wise.

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Of course the flat numbers are being improved in some way, because can you imagine how bad it would be if they didn't give us our new Broil 3/Malefic 4/Stone 5*cough*I mean Glare?

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Originally Posted by Josco

This is a great point.

Some DPS are so focused on getting an extra GCD they get hit by AoEs or fail to manage their aggro. The solution seems to be take away their distracting DPS skills so they can focus on mechanics.

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I'd be completely on board with that as well If anything just to read the salt that would come with it. at this point Not a single healer complaint for 5.0 has been one solidly consolidated thread but Ten separate and equally incoherent threads. not a single one has been intelligently examined, or thought out with reasonable solutions and responses its all been passionate, illogical, and not a single well thought out or reasonable response as where and how to fix it just straight up fix it or we boycott. well theres not much longer before it happens so get to boycotting or learn to adapt because it doesnt look like it's going to change.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I'd be completely on board with that as well If anything just to read the salt that would come with it. at this point Not a single healer complaint for 5.0 has been one solidly consolidated thread but Ten separate and equally incoherent threads. not a single one has been intelligently examined, or thought out with reasonable solutions and responses its all been passionate, illogical, and not a single well thought out or reasonable response as where and how to fix it just straight up fix it or we boycott. well theres not much longer before it happens so get to boycotting or learn to adapt because it doesnt look like it's going to change.

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I've read a few good points, some I agree with, some I don't necessarily agree with that are contingent on the developers.

But it's mostly a dumpster fire, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

First off, I'd love to see how you're getting these values. After losing so many damage sources (Energy Drain, Shadow Flare, Miasma 2, Bane) I highly doubt this. Especially in the AoE department.

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All values below are per minute.

ASTRO
Stormblood:
Uses two combust 2 for a total of 1000 potency, twenty two malefic 3 for 4840 potency, and one earthly star for 720 potency, which gives a total of 6560 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two combust 3 for 1000 potency, twenty two malefic 4 for 5500 potency, and one earthly star for 720 potency, which gives a total potency of 7220 potency per minute.

SCHOLAR
Stormblood:
Uses two bio 2 for 700 potency, three miasma for 760 potency, three energy drain for 450 potency, one shadowflare for 250 potency, and nineteen broil 2 for 4370 potency, for a total of 6530 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two biolysis for 1200 potency, and twenty two broil 3 for 6160 potency for a total of 7360 potency per minute.

WHITE MAGE
Stormblood:
Uses four aero 2 for 1200 potency, three aero 3 for 910 potency, seventeen stone 4 for 4250 potency, and one assize for 400 potency, for a total of 6760 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two dia for 1440 potency, twenty two glare for 6600 potency, and one assize for 400 potency for a total of 8440 potency per minute.

Healer dps is less engaging arguably, but its definitely still worth doing.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Of course the flat numbers are being improved in some way, because can you imagine how bad it would be if they didn't give us our new Broil 3/Malefic 4/Stone 5*cough*I mean Glare?

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For whm and sch, the dps increase is due to the dot changes allowing you to cast significantly more nuke spells than previously.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

For whm and sch, the dps increase is due to the dot changes allowing you to cast significantly more nuke spells than previously.

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Th-that doesn't change what I said... There was no way on Eorzea SE wasn't going to be adding new tiers of our Spam Attacks, unless they did something interesting with our attacks, and what we've seen shows that is...Unlikely.

Yoshida really doesn't understand there are ways around being a DPS Healer besides cutting Dps down and making Pure Healers out of them. As long as there is only World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 there is no reason to think outside the Box on what A healer is. An Example you lay down a Cone and it heals the group it's feature is Sound and just as long as the group is in the Cone... what is the Healer doing to the Mob besides sitting there and watching it be attack this is how he thinks. Another Developer what if I put a Damage effect on that Cone So it's hurting the Mob while it's Healing the Group. He wanted White Mages with Holy that Dps the mob but then he made another spell that heals the group why because he doesn't want a Double effect but he wants pure-Healers??? so why not double effect Holy make it so you Dps the Mob while healing your group. I know some Spells can't do this but Some can. which in his mind should be I made a pure Healer + in the players Mind I can Dps without worrying about my group since I'm also healing them. It gives the healers the ability to be Pure-Healers while Dps since that is what they should be and it's better then the idea of taking all Dps spells away from healers. (Since the idea is you should be Healing).

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

All values below are per minute.

ASTRO
Stormblood:
Uses two combust 2 for a total of 1000 potency, twenty two malefic 3 for 4840 potency, and one earthly star for 720 potency, which gives a total of 6560 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two combust 3 for 1000 potency, twenty two malefic 4 for 5500 potency, and one earthly star for 720 potency, which gives a total potency of 7220 potency per minute.

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You're missing multiple Lord of Crowns dumps and a Sleeve Draw. Not to mention Lightspeed and Switfcast.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

All values below are per minute.

SCHOLAR
Stormblood:
Uses two bio 2 for 700 potency, three miasma for 760 potency, three energy drain for 450 potency, one shadowflare for 250 potency, and nineteen broil 2 for 4370 potency, for a total of 6530 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two biolysis for 1200 potency, and twenty two broil 3 for 6160 potency for a total of 7360 potency per minute.
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You're missing the fact that SCH Weaves 3 energy drains as part of opener, uses Aetherflow, Weaves 3 more, Dissipates, and weaves 3 more. 900 potency you're missing without accounting for Miasma II instant weaved with Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

All values below are per minute.

WHITE MAGE
Stormblood:
Uses four aero 2 for 1200 potency, three aero 3 for 910 potency, seventeen stone 4 for 4250 potency, and one assize for 400 potency, for a total of 6760 potency per minute.
Shadowbringers:
Uses two dia for 1440 potency, twenty two glare for 6600 potency, and one assize for 400 potency for a total of 8440 potency per minute.
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Again, you're missing adding PoM into this rotation which bumps up the Stone count and total potency, as well as swift cast > stone.

In other words, your analysis is missing a TON of skillful play. Skillful play that separates veterans from more casual players. Skillful play that will largely be gone come ShadowBringers.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Again, you're missing adding PoM into this rotation which bumps up the Stone count and total potency, as well as swift cast > stone.

In other words, your analysis is missing a TON of skillful play. Skillful play that separates veterans from more casual players. Skillful play that will largely be gone come ShadowBringers.

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Is the gap between casual and veteran for you really hitting one buff and spamming stone?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Again, you're missing adding PoM into this rotation which bumps up the Stone count and total potency, as well as swift cast > stone.

In other words, your analysis is missing a TON of skillful play. Skillful play that separates veterans from more casual players. Skillful play that will largely be gone come ShadowBringers.

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Was PoM removed? Doesn't really matter that I left it or swiftcast out, you are still gaining DPS this expansion. Even if you included those there is no way you are making up almost 2000 potency.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Is the gap between casual and veteran for you really hitting one buff and spamming stone?

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Sadly from what I've seen while tanking and healing, yeah it is.

There are people who refuse to use AoE despite there being 8+ mobs grouped up. People who for some reason refuse to use Diversion at the start of the fight. Ninja's who have no idea how Shadewalker and Smokescreen work.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

Was PoM removed? Doesn't really matter that I left it or swiftcast out, you are still gaining DPS this expansion. Even if you included those there is no way you are making up almost 2000 potency.

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Your SCH write-up had a gap of ~800 and everything I suggested would more than make that up. Just an extra Aetherflow and 3 Energy Drains alone would surpass it and that's not even touching AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Sadly from what I've seen while tanking and healing, yeah it is.

There are people who refuse to use AoE despite there being 8+ mobs grouped up. People who for some reason refuse to use Diversion at the start of the fight. Ninja's who have no idea how Shadewalker and Smokescreen work.



Your SCH write-up had a gap of ~800 and everything I suggested would more than make that up. Just an extra Aetherflow and 3 Energy Drains alone would surpass it and that's not even touching AoE damage.

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People that don't aoe really baffle me, because aoe rotations are simler and easier than single target. I've gone through whole dungeons with blms not using fire 2 or never seeing the ninja drop a single doton or katon etc. Really makes me scratch my head. And sometimes they're also the impatient players. Said ninja that wasn't aoeing the whole dungeon goes and pulls the last boss of arboretum hard because I stopped for two seconds to type a question.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You're missing multiple Lord of Crowns dumps and a Sleeve Draw. Not to mention Lightspeed and Switfcast.



You're missing the fact that SCH Weaves 3 energy drains as part of opener, uses Aetherflow, Weaves 3 more, Dissipates, and weaves 3 more. 900 potency you're missing without accounting for Miasma II instant weaved with Energy Drain.



Again, you're missing adding PoM into this rotation which bumps up the Stone count and total potency, as well as swift cast > stone.

In other words, your analysis is missing a TON of skillful play. Skillful play that separates veterans from more casual players. Skillful play that will largely be gone come ShadowBringers.

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You are correct, I left out the additional aetherflows during the opener if you use all 9 stacks on energy drain(sounds unrealistic, but whatever) sb sch will do 70 more potency than shb sch. Shb sch still has a much higher potency per minute outside of opener situations however. Due to its low overall potency, using Miasma 2 even once during the openerwould result in shb sch having a higher potency opener. If you use two lord of crowns per minute(again sounds unrealistic) shb ast still does 60 more potency than sb ast.

I didn't factor in lightspeed, Pom, and swift, however due to the higher base potencies of shb skills factoring in these will result in a wider gap rather than a more narrow one as you are implying.

In shb healers base potency per minute will be roughly equivalent to peak potency per minute of sb healers.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

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How in the Twelve do you need to save EVERYTHING to keep people alive? There’s no surprise trash mobs, no surprise boss attacks. Literally everything is scripted. Raids, dungeons, everything. You KNOW what is coming. The only time it’s a surprise is if you’re new, and even then you do not need your entire mp pool and every single CD to keep anyone alive. Even with non maxed gear lol.

I love how healing works in this game. I hated being a heal bot in WoW, which is why I’ve played healer in XIV for so long. The incoming damage could be upped so we arent dpsing 90% of the time, but I do not want to take away our dps completely. I do not want to be a heal bot. Let us keep what separates the good from the bad, and not all “Lol I spAmmY spAm hEalY buTtoNs aNd mAke GreEn bArs Go uP.” And no matter what they do, we are always going to have negative experiences in dungeons. It is the downside of playing an online game with real people.

Literally the ONLY healers who get stressed in casual content are those who aren’t very good. Healing is so powerful right now, it requires very little effort lol. All we want is the way we deal damage to be more interesting than a button spam. I do not understand why heal only healers get so mad when we ask for an improvement for our desired play style. It LITERALLY does not change your play style. We get more enjoyment out of how we like to play, and you get to keep the way you like to play. Why is having options so bad?

Oh and it’s the public forum for giving feedback. We are more than welcome to voice our discontent. Got a problem, no one is forcing you to read our posts.

The changes to mana and piety are almost certainly there to make it so that healing in FFXIV more resembles other MMOs. In FFXIV healers have some limited heal resources (Essential Dignity has a cooldown, aetherflow has 3 stacks per minute, ect), but for the most part you can constantly heal. Like I tested it on scholar and you can toss out AOE heals non-stop 33 times and your expensive heal 22 times, which is... a bonkers amount of healing before running out of MP and having to slightly slow down healing, even ignoring oGCDs and the fairy.

Healing in most MMOs is an on the fly resource management game, and while it may not be to everyone's taste, the 'mainstream' healer demographic is a very important one FFXIV doesn't cater to at all, and that is a pretty big problem. "Do I regen this DPS who took incidental damage, do an efficient burst heal, toss out a mana chugging AOE heal?" is an interesting questions in those games because going too light might result in their death, going too hard means you run out of mana faster and may be left without healing when you need it. That... can't happen in FFXIV, so the only real skillful play is knowing when you need to heal at all, knowing when you can stand still as a white mage, and knowing how to weave energy drain if you are a scholar. Not... a lot going on, which is why healers going from other MMOs don't often heal in FFXIV. Ironically, because healers are so insane at healing to the point you can always toss your biggest GCD heals whenever you want, they actually are less interesting than when they have mana problems. So I can fully see why there is a double standard and why healers won't be able to meld piety to make their mana efficiency better: Because healers being very mana efficient actually makes healers LESS fun to play.

Course there are other considerations: other games have healer 'downtime' where they can catch their bearings and monitor the team, and while FFXIV has plenty of downtime too usually you spent that DPSing, so hopefully healer DPS abilities won't cost mana. Likewise, while potency adjustments were necessary, as well as nerfs to scholar, it is sub-par an enjoyable part of the scholar kit of oGCD offensive weaving is going away. Those are some weird changes and will leave a hole in the game if healing doesn't get a lot more active, and more active healing means more folks wiping in roulette content, and roulette content being a more serious barrier to progression is bad with how long it takes now to get to endgame.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Course there are other considerations: other games have healer 'downtime' where they can catch their bearings and monitor the team, and while FFXIV has plenty of downtime too usually you spent that DPSing, so hopefully healer DPS abilities won't cost mana.

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Too late. At the very least the AoEs cost MP.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Just because you're bad enough that you need every last drop of MP to do the bare minimum of keeping people alive doesn't mean the rest of us have to suffer. If they increase incoming damage like people are suspecting, you'll need to learn how to heal anyway too.

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If you would like a more prime example the tank barely had 360 item level. We are running expert dungeons. The tank pulled mobs all the way to the boss did not use a single cool down. But it's okay go ahead and call me names tell me I'm a bad healer.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

How in the Twelve do you need to save EVERYTHING to keep people alive? There’s no surprise trash mobs, no surprise boss attacks. Literally everything is scripted. Raids, dungeons, everything. You KNOW what is coming. The only time it’s a surprise is if you’re new, and even then you do not need your entire mp pool and every single CD to keep anyone alive. Even with non maxed gear lol.

I love how healing works in this game. I hated being a heal bot in WoW, which is why I’ve played healer in XIV for so long. The incoming damage could be upped so we arent dpsing 90% of the time, but I do not want to take away our dps completely. I do not want to be a heal bot. Let us keep what separates the good from the bad, and not all “Lol I spAmmY spAm hEalY buTtoNs aNd mAke GreEn bArs Go uP.” And no matter what they do, we are always going to have negative experiences in dungeons. It is the downside of playing an online game with real people.

Literally the ONLY healers who get stressed in casual content are those who aren’t very good. Healing is so powerful right now, it requires very little effort lol. All we want is the way we deal damage to be more interesting than a button spam. I do not understand why heal only healers get so mad when we ask for an improvement for our desired play style. It LITERALLY does not change your play style. We get more enjoyment out of how we like to play, and you get to keep the way you like to play. Why is having options so bad?

Oh and it’s the public forum for giving feedback. We are more than welcome to voice our discontent. Got a problem, no one is forcing you to read our posts.

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Oh you're right I must KNOW an undergeared tank is not going to use cooldowns. I must also KNOW that a DPS is going to accidentally pull another group of mobs that isn't going to be picked up right away because the tank isn't paying attention. You're right it must all be my fault. I'm so glad the forums has people like you to tell the rest of us how horrible we are and how wonderful you are. Thank you for your wonderful insight.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I love how healing works in this game. I hated being a heal bot in WoW, which is why I’ve played healer in XIV for so long. The incoming damage could be upped so we arent dpsing 90% of the time, but I do not want to take away our dps completely. I do not want to be a heal bot. Let us keep what separates the good from the bad, and not all “Lol I spAmmY spAm hEalY buTtoNs aNd mAke GreEn bArs Go uP.” And no matter what they do, we are always going to have negative experiences in dungeons. It is the downside of playing an online game with real people.

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And most importantly in WoW if you wanted to level, you had a dedicated DPS spec to do that. We don't have those here in FFXIV. One dot and one filler spell from level 2 to lvl 80 is going to get really old REALLY fast.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Oh you're right I must KNOW an undergeared tank is not going to use cooldowns. I must also KNOW that a DPS is going to accidentally pull another group of mobs that isn't going to be picked up right away because the tank isn't paying attention. You're right it must all be my fault. I'm so glad the forums has people like you to tell the rest of us how horrible we are and how wonderful you are. Thank you for your wonderful insight.

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No need to be so condescending. I've run enough dungeons to know that the above has definitely happened more times than I'd like to count. Generally just like you laid out. Undergeared tanks not using CD's (AV, Vault, Bardam's anyone?), DPS pulling because they're impatient.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And most importantly in WoW if you wanted to level, you had a dedicated DPS spec to do that. We don't have those here in FFXIV. One dot and one filler spell from level 2 to lvl 80 is going to get really old REALLY fast.



No need to be so condescending. I've run enough dungeons to know that the above has definitely happened more times than I'd like to count. Generally just like you laid out. Undergeared tanks not using CD's (AV, Vault, Bardam's anyone?), DPS pulling because they're impatient.

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I don't find that condescending at all I find that an adequate response to a user in the Forum telling me I am a bad player for the way I play. I see a lot of these hateful people in the forums that don't actually contribute in a positive manner but rather become argumentative and call other players bad because we do not conform to the way they think the game should play and not the way the game is designed. That is the reason for these recent changes. The devs are tired of the tanks and the healers fighting in dungeons all of us have seen it at one point in time. It has to stop it's a total team effort. And the comment to me about being a bad player for conserving MP just proves what type of people are Community have in it and unfortunately there are a lot of negative people who just want to spread hate I want to spread positivity and joy in the game. But go ahead and call me condescending if you must. But I will not sit back and listen to other players say that those of us who conserve MP are bad players as there are a lot of us that do it.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

If you would like a more prime example the tank barely had 360 item level. We are running expert dungeons. The tank pulled mobs all the way to the boss did not use a single cool down. But it's okay go ahead and call me names tell me I'm a bad healer.

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So we healers should have our job screwed because some tanks are unbearable bad at doing their job? You know that you can talk with them right? Tell them "Please use your cooldowns" and vote kick if they blame you. What youre saying is like saying that tank jobs should only have one aggro aoe attack because some dps dont know that diversion exist, just make the game less appealing for players who have already invested in their job because some other players are terribe at theirs, In which world that is even remotely fair?

And lets not talk about the fact of changing three jobs because some very specific scenarios which are not the ordinary.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

So we healers should have our job screwed because some tanks are unbearable bad at doing their job? You know that you can talk with them right? Tell them "Please use your cooldowns" and vote kick if they blame you. What youre saying is like saying that tank jobs should only have one aggro aoe attack because some dps dont know that diversion exist, just make the game less appealing for players who have already invested in their job because some other players are terribe at theirs, In which world that is even remotely fair?

And lets not talk about the fact of changing three jobs because some very specific scenarios which are not the ordinary.

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Look the reason for these changes is because they were so much hatred in Dungeons and so much fighting in dungeons between tanks and Healers. I used an example of something negative that happened in a dungeon. At no point did I say that healer should be screwed over nor do I believe that having healers primarily heal is screwing over a Healer as after all the name itself tells us what the duty is and that is healer. Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. I never said that healers should be screwed over and personally I don't believe they're being screwed over I wish people would wait until the new content comes out and actually try it before complaining about all of the changes.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Look the reason for these changes is because they were so much hatred in Dungeons and so much fighting in dungeons between tanks and Healers.

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Source please. Do you have an inside to the SE development team you'd like to share? I think we'd like some answers from them. /s

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Source please. Do you have an inside to the SE development team you'd like to share? I think we'd like some answers from them. /s

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I'm just curious do you find it enjoyable to go around and troll people? Earlier in this thread and also in other threads you have quoted me out of context. It seems that you want to argue about nothing and everything. I'm curious what I have done to deserve such attention from you? Like for example earlier in this thread telling me I'm condescending for defending my position against another player who you also had a problem with in this same thread. Are you in these forms to contribute in a positive manner because in my humble opinion it doesn't appear that you are. If you are just here to argue and try to create drama and problems then please in the future leave me out of your drama sessions. Thank You

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Look the reason for these changes is because they were so much hatred in Dungeons and so much fighting in dungeons between tanks and Healers. I used an example of something negative that happened in a dungeon. At no point did I say that healer should be screwed over nor do I believe that having healers primarily heal is screwing over a Healer as after all the name itself tells us what the duty is and that is healer. Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. I never said that healers should be screwed over and personally I don't believe they're being screwed over I wish people would wait until the new content comes out and actually try it before complaining about all of the changes.

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And none of these changes will alter the status quo unless the outgoing damage greatly increases. If the devs did make said changes in the hopes of settling down the community's expectations. They will be in for a very rude awakening. It has never been about lack of DPS abilities but the fact healers have nothing else to do except DPS. And they spend more time doing that than healing due to the aforementioned low damage output. You don't balance around a random fool since said fool isn't going to magically get better. This is the equivalent of saying dungeons should gate pulls to one pack at a time because some people refuse to use their AoE abilities.

While I may be highly critical of the dev team's design decisions. I don't believe they're this... shall we say, blind?

Maybe Because I'm not a healer but like... All you had was just two dots and one spamable attack. Sch had like 4 I think? I don't really see the big deal, all you lost was one extra dot.
You still going to be spamming one skill.
Sch had energy drain but like that's not much.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And none of these changes will alter the status quo unless the outgoing damage greatly increases. If the devs did make said changes in the hopes of settling down the community's expectations. They will be in for a very rude awakening. It has never been about lack of DPS abilities but the fact healers have nothing else to do except DPS. And they spend more time doing that than healing due to the aforementioned low damage output. You don't balance around a random fool since said fool isn't going to magically get better. This is the equivalent of saying dungeons should gate pulls to one pack at a time because some people refuse to use their AoE abilities.

While I may be highly critical of the dev team's design decisions. I don't believe they're this... shall we say, blind?

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You're making a lot of assumptions however we don't know truly what's going to happen until the game comes out for those of us that pre-purchased on June 28th. If a healer is literally standing around with nothing to do then absolutely yes by all means that healer should do some DPS but once again as you've done in some of my previous threads you only read one of my comments but haven't looked at the entirety of what was said. And I believe you are absolutely incorrect. I believe it will change hatred between healers and tanks. Right now from my own is personal experiences what I have seen while playing all three classes is that there is a big fight when tanks drop stance. There is also a big fight if a tank doesn't see a Healer pushing a button a cast every single global cooldown. I personally believe that that will change the fighting will be less in those two instances.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

These changes aren't going to stop people from DPSing. Unless there are other drastic changes that we don't know about yet (seems unlikely at this point) DPS is still going to be the default downtime activity and what what we spend most of our time doing. It'll just be really freaking boring now with only one main button.

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I rarely play healer or tank. But it was obvious to me that a lot of the fun would be lost of dps'ing it's becoming so very simple for those roles. Now how could Yoshi and the rest of the developer's not realize they are sucking the fun out of things?

Their is nothing worse than taking away stuff people had for so long and dumbing it down and making it boring. It's like a punishment.

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Originally Posted by Kieren-Dohla

I rarely play healer or tank. But it was obvious to me that a lot of the fun would be lost of dps'ing it's becoming so very simple for those roles. Now how could Yoshi and the rest of the developer's not realize they are sucking the fun out of things?

Their is nothing worse than taking away stuff people had for so long and dumbing it down and making it boring. It's like a punishment.

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It does feel like a punishment to me... WHMs wanted to be brought up to the level of AST or so, either through direct damage or utility. And they probably should have knocked SCH down a smidge to AST's level. Basically balancing it that way and then adding interesting new things to each job to make them unique and engaging while building on that. Instead we got this. Power to the people who like what they did, but I personally don't. It's got me pretty apprehensive about the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

You're making a lot of assumptions however we don't know truly what's going to happen until the game comes out for those of us that pre-purchased on June 28th. If a healer is literally standing around with nothing to do then absolutely yes by all means that healer should do some DPS but once again as you've done in some of my previous threads you only read one of my comments but haven't looked at the entirety of what was said. And I believe you are absolutely incorrect. I believe it will change hatred between healers and tanks. Right now from my own is personal experiences what I have seen while playing all three classes is that there is a big fight when tanks drop stance. There is also a big fight if a tank doesn't see a Healer pushing a button a cast every single global cooldown. I personally believe that that will change the fighting will be less in those two instances.

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But arent you also making assumptions? You are assuming the balances are going to work on the players favor, that is assumption since you dont know, yet you defend your position as fiercely as everyone else, for example your believes are also assumptions, i mean that is the meaning of a believe, to accept somenthing without proof.

So if you can and are vocal about being positive so can others. Either way i rather not talk about whatever you "believe" or your assumptions i rather talk about facts, for example they are not going to readjust content from lvl1-70 that seems like a huge chunk of content, how will that affect new healers? If healing is going to be more "challenging", will that not make new or less apt healers drop the job faster, since now it will be completely their fault if a party (or tank) dies ? While being superficialy more user friendly if the content will demand unlimited or ultima weapon levels of healing (or around that level) from the healers in Dungeons, instances, normal primals, etc... then would not that detract from your believe, making the rift between tank and healers (and possibly dps) even bigger? Even more so with the changes to tanks since they have even more defensive options.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Oh you're right I must KNOW an undergeared tank is not going to use cooldowns. I must also KNOW that a DPS is going to accidentally pull another group of mobs that isn't going to be picked up right away because the tank isn't paying attention. You're right it must all be my fault. I'm so glad the forums has people like you to tell the rest of us how horrible we are and how wonderful you are. Thank you for your wonderful insight.

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Even with what you are saying, I dont understand how you need to save everything. I’ve had plenty of bad runs, yet never had to change how I played to keep people from dying. Im not trying to put you down or brag, I honestly do not understand based on my personal experience and what I’ve seen with my friends/fc.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

I don't find that condescending at all I find that an adequate response to a user in the Forum telling me I am a bad player for the way I play. I see a lot of these hateful people in the forums that don't actually contribute in a positive manner but rather become argumentative and call other players bad because we do not conform to the way they think the game should play and not the way the game is designed. That is the reason for these recent changes. The devs are tired of the tanks and the healers fighting in dungeons all of us have seen it at one point in time. It has to stop it's a total team effort. And the comment to me about being a bad player for conserving MP just proves what type of people are Community have in it and unfortunately there are a lot of negative people who just want to spread hate I want to spread positivity and joy in the game. But go ahead and call me condescending if you must. But I will not sit back and listen to other players say that those of us who conserve MP are bad players as there are a lot of us that do it.

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The way content is designed does not show AT ALL that you should sit there and do nothing and contribute nothing but healing. If it did, we would have gotten a boost to damage taken a long time ago and heals wouldn’t be so portent. And not contributing has been seen as bad play as a result. And please don’t speak for the devs as to WHY they’re changing what they are unless you provide receipts. It’s not good to spread false information and state it as fact.

I’m not hateful, and I never called YOU specifically bad. I asked you questions, because I didn’t understand something you said. The other part has been true, whether you like it or not. Those who get anxious during runs like that aren’t as good or experienced as others. I’ve witnessed it time and time again with myself and others. You freak out and panic more when you’re not as experienced or as good. I don’t crack or freak out when I get an under geared tank or whatever because of the fact I’ve had so many of those groups, it’s literally muscle memory and you know how to get damage out even with a squish of a tank and not go completely oom. “Conserving mp” is really unneeded and the way you said it came off as that’s an excuse so you don’t have to throw out damage. Hence the confusion.

I contributed my two ¢ on the actual topic at hand. Healers don’t have to just heal to be a healer. We can throw damage as well, and a decent healer does their primary role before doing dps. People keep making it sound like the vast majority of healers only throw damage and don’t heal like they’re supposed to. I really doubt that is the case, and I think most people can agree that people who don’t keep people alive as a healer are terrible. And I really do not see the harm in letting people have the heal/dps play style. And I really don’t understand why it’s such a bad thing to Give healers a more engaging dps rotation other than 2111111112111111112. Nothing too crazy, just something more than what we are getting in ShB.

Cool on you if you think sitting there and only healing is fun(that’s how you come off with the “you fill the healer role in dungeons therefore that’s what you should do” comments), but there’s people like myself who don’t want that. We want to contribute more than just healing, and we should be able to have the choice in play style rather than conforming to one. Like I’ve said in the post you quoted me in, we could stand to heal more rather than dpsing 80-90% of the time, but they shouldn’t take it away completely. There’s a reason I enjoy healing in XIV more than I did in like WoW. I love contributing more than spamming nothing but heals and shields in fear that if I stop, they die.

And I really don’t see this hatred between heals and tanks. I don’t believe it’s as big as a problem as you’re saying, to the point we have to give up our play styles to get people to chill out. Our experiences are just night and day apparently. Dumbing down jobs and taking away the way people like to play shouldn’t be the answer.

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Originally Posted by reyre

But arent you also making assumptions? You are assuming the balances are going to work on the players favor, that is assumption since you dont know, yet you defend your position as fiercely as everyone else, for example your believes are also assumptions, i mean that is the meaning of a believe, to accept somenthing without proof.

So if you can and are vocal about being positive so can others. Either way i rather not talk about whatever you "believe" or your assumptions i rather talk about facts, for example they are not going to readjust content from lvl1-70 that seems like a huge chunk of content, how will that affect new healers? If healing is going to be more "challenging", will that not make new or less apt healers drop the job faster, since now it will be completely their fault if a party (or tank) dies ? While being superficialy more user friendly if the content will demand unlimited or ultima weapon levels of healing (or around that level) from the healers in Dungeons, instances, normal primals, etc... then would not that detract from your believe, making the rift between tank and healers (and possibly dps) even bigger? Even more so with the changes to tanks since they have even more defensive options.

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I'm not assuming anything I'm going to wait till the game comes out and see how it plays out. And I will continue to say what I have been saying I wish people would stop all the complaining until they've actually tried a new content and then if they don't like it complain away. And you are right I am assuming that is why the devs are doing it. I am assuming it's because in the last couple of months according to Square Enix they have had a record number of harassment complaints in dungeons specifically between tanks and healers so many that the gamemaster's cannot keep up with the complaints. Mysource the Square Enix directly. I did not record the conversation. I didn't have a tape recorder with me at the time sorry. And you speak of proof I've seen no proof in any of your threads just a lot of talk so isn't that kind of hypocritical?

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Maybe Because I'm not a healer but like... All you had was just two dots and one spamable attack. Sch had like 4 I think? I don't really see the big deal, all you lost was one extra dot.
You still going to be spamming one skill.
Sch had energy drain but like that's not much.

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AST didn't lose any dots. WHM lost one dot. SCH lost too much.

AST is mad because cards are being dumbed down to the point where it feels like their identity is being taken away. (If you actually paid attention in the AST quest line, it talks about what the cards reference and why they do what they do, someone made a great post about it somewhere in the dumpster fire that is healer forums over the past week. I will not be going to find it.)

WHM is mad because we got 1 dot taken away so we now have the boring AST rotation but without anything else for us to do. And we still don't have any raid utility at all. And all of our over the top healing (of which we got more) isn't needed and still won't be needed.

SCH is mad because they lost too much (way more than one dot), and while they got a new shiny fairy, it does not fix losing too much.


To whoever it was trying to talk about how we're gaining 10% potency...
And of course healers have bigger potency spells so it's probable that at least AST and WHM will do more dmg than we currently do, but the HP for all the mobs will also go up quite a bit if Shadowbringers is like previous expansions. My undergeared WHM couldn't really kill anything in HW launch (even though I could kill 50s in ARR areas ok). My well geared WHM took much too long to kill things in Fringes and Peaks (even though I had no problems with 60s in the HW areas). I expect this to be much the same in Shadowbringers, and I for one would have loved to be able to keep any extra damage spells to be able to help kill things faster. (And that's why I'll be going DPS this expansion.)

100% agree OP.

At this point, I honestly dont' believe SE has an idea how to properly do anything but DPS roles. That is why tanks are officially blue DPS now...

What I would do is, scrap the whole concept of the healer role and replace it with the support role. The support role could be anything from a melee, to physical ranged or caster and would be a DPS/heal hybrid. DNC would perfectly fit that role already (with a few tweaks).

This has two big pros:
1. You can give the support role a full DPS rotation,which either buffs the group or debuffs enemies and give them 2-3 heals.
2. You can make tanks have an identity besides "blue DPS"!
Make them be responsible for their own survivability, f.e. by giving them active mitigation they have to keep track of while tanking and give them the tools to keep themselves alive.
The group dmgreduce CD also already fits into that concept.

This is what they could do:
SCH
Debuffs enemies.
Gives out heals/small shields through the fairy (on a CD).

AST
The SCH/WHM hybrid.
Rework the card system to either hand out buffs or debuff enemies (diurnal/nocturnal).
Make each card unique again!
Draws could be achieved by completing their DPS rotation.

WHM
Buffs the group with white magic.

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Originally Posted by Atlantasia

WHMs wanted to be brought up to the level of AST or so, either through direct damage or utility. And they probably should have knocked SCH down a smidge to AST's level. Basically balancing it that way and then adding interesting new things to each job to make them unique and engaging while building on that. Instead we got this. Power to the people who like what they did, but I personally don't. It's got me pretty apprehensive about the whole thing.

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Yeah. Most people just wanted WHM brought up to AST/SCH levels (and maybe bring SCH down slightly.) Turn lilies into a party buff mechanic and you're set. Literally no one asked for... this... whatever the hell mess we just got.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

If you would like a more prime example the tank barely had 360 item level. We are running expert dungeons. The tank pulled mobs all the way to the boss did not use a single cool down. But it's okay go ahead and call me names tell me I'm a bad healer.

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If a single bad tank means you're too scared to utilize your kit, then yeah. You're pretty bad. The rest of the crap you're spewing in this thread isn't much better. Claiming tanks and healers have some sort of animosity between each other? Please, I get along splendidly with my tanks. Even if a wipe should happen, we just shrug and say "Ok, let's split that up into two pulls next time." If you're finding tanks and healers are at each other's throats constantly, I'm inclined to believe the problem is you. And claiming that SE has personally told you that there's some record number of harassment reports between tanks and healers that you've oh so conveniently neglected to have any proof of? This is playground "My dad works at Nintendo" bullcrap.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

I'm not assuming anything I'm going to wait till the game comes out and see how it plays out. And I will continue to say what I have been saying I wish people would stop all the complaining until they've actually tried a new content and then if they don't like it complain away. And you are right I am assuming that is why the devs are doing it. I am assuming it's because in the last couple of months according to Square Enix they have had a record number of harassment complaints in dungeons specifically between tanks and healers so many that the gamemaster's cannot keep up with the complaints. Mysource the Square Enix directly. I did not record the conversation. I didn't have a tape recorder with me at the time sorry. And you speak of proof I've seen no proof in any of your threads just a lot of talk so isn't that kind of hypocritical?

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Are you not reading? or you just ignored what i wrote, because i clearly stated that i do not care about your believes, did i not?No i did not speak of proof in your arguments i simply said that the meaning of the word believe is: to accept somenthing without proof. How is it hypocritical of me when i claimed nothining, unlike you.So no it is not hypocrisy just because you have a false sense of virtue dont assume everyone is the same and im starting to wonder if you can actually read or know the meaning of the words you are trying to use.

I dont care if you were harrased, that is none of my concern, i asked very especific questions that you ignored entierly.

You contradict yourself in the same parragraph " I'm not assuming anything..." followed by " And you are right I am assuming." See what i mean? Either you dont read properly or you read what you want creating a rift because if you cant understand what others are saying you will understand what you want, further proving that you are indeed lacking. Besides you were saying somenthing asinine about proof (which i reiterate i said nothing about other than the meaning of the word) yet you dont have proof of your own harrasment because and i quote " I didn't have a tape recorder with me " so wait you are calling me a hypocrite because i provide no proof, but you have no proof of nothing as well?
Im sorry but you dont read,you assume things instead of asking, ignore very especific questions asked at you, perverse the message someone is writting because of said lack of reading skills, the fact that you dont know what an assumption means or what it entails or that you have no idea what the words you are using means.
I asked very clearly some of my concerns and made it clear that i did not wish to discuss your "believes", yet you ignored all of that and the questions i had in regard of the future of healing and turn them into an imaginary attack to you. You do realize that you could have just answered or asked if things where not clear in my questions, instead you played the martyr and the offended card. Pitifull, not worth the time.