5.0 Job change wishlist

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You're wrong. You know it, I know it, anyome with common sense knows it. I don't even feel the need to point out why, it's clear enough from your post you don't understand anything about WHM.

It's sad you've kind of forced me to respond to you as if you were a troll even though I don't believe you are one. The problem is you're so misinformed about how this game plays to the casual observer it seems... trolley.

Also please show me a hardcore raider that spams Medica II/Regen. Link a log or a video please. I'll wait.

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Spare me the insults.

Go play a command mission as a DPS, and then compare it to a MSQ run as a DPS. Healers complaining about not getting lilies? How about not overhealing like everyone is standing in a lava floor.

Command mission:
Healer casts stone II until someone takes damage, then casts Lucid Dreaming, Largesse, and then casts Cure II on the player with damage, then resumes casting Stone and Aero. If more than one player takes damage, they immediately cast Medica II. Like, even I think this is stupid, because they reach for Medica II not when the party is at 50%, but at almost-full. They never cast Regen, Medica or Cure III.

In fact, the command mission healer casts Medica II when not even being level 50, and does so only when two players have been damaged greatly.
https://i.imgur.com/fPAyU9L.png

Otherwise they only cast Cure II to top up the tank.
https://i.imgur.com/kgb4UCm.png


MSQ, pretty much every time: WHM or AST casts Medica II/Aspected Helios immediately after the cutscene stops, and keeps casting it. No Lucid Dreaming, No Largesse, just casting it for whatever reason. Like I don't know who is giving these people advice, but there are far more players doing things as inefficient as possible. Same with all CT raids. Just because it's a faceroll content, doesn't mean you spam HoT's.

https://i.imgur.com/8P6d7Ad.png

https://i.imgur.com/eE5dz5s.png

Which I will reiterate. The gauges are there to tell you how SE thinks players should be doing the job. If you want to play it inefficiently, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. They are not limit break bars. But please don't pretend that Yoshi-P hasn't made it clear on no less than a dozen separate occasions that they intended for healers to use Cure and Cure II (or Benefic and Benefic II.) The gauges and the command mission point directly towards using Cure II to heal. The command mission healer has essentially unlimited MP so they do not need Lucid Dreaming for anything but an Enmity dump. The command mission healer only DPS's when nobody is bleeding.

And don't be surprised if whatever they change to WHM and AST next pushes harder against the raider healer meta.

https://i.imgur.com/MvK4MHB.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5la_...youtu.be&t=280

https://i.imgur.com/vTwCRE1.png
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

This method is for the beginners.

“overheal”, “needlessly” ?
Maybe because it’s the better way to heal teammate over time, don’t you think ?
And sorry, but with Cure I & II, you can overheal too (+ embrace overheal). And you are losing a lot of time to do so whereas you have hot + embrace to recover life of the tank/player with “raider meta”, and are free to do what you want during this time.

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The lily system doesn't want you to overheal. The game is casual oriented, if they actually punished overhealing by ripping aggro away from the tank, the raider meta would disintigrate.

If I go into MSQ as a healer for the tomes, the only time I even use Medica II is to pull the mobs towards the center during the first Livia phase. MSQ does so little damage now that everyone has to be standing in every bad to need it. Like you don't even need it when the entire party stands in bad during the first encounter with Gaius in the Praetorium, and you don't need it with Nero either.

Yet, when the tank hasn't even pulled and the co-healer will pull out Medica II or Diurnal Aspected Helios, on trash, on bosses, even when waiting for Cid to blow open a hole in the wall. There is no logic to any of this.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Let's just roll with the thought that SE created WHM strictly with a "heal only" mindset. They'd have to be pretty incompetent to not realize that the very same ogcds they gave WHM since SB has enabled them to do the very opposite of this identity and heal as little as possible.

Not to mention this is straight up shafting over half of all the other WHMs who actually want to contribute to their group and DPS, as the lily system doesn't benefit them at all.
Perhaps it's true. Perhaps they do want WHM to be a pure healer. But the way to do that isn't to just ignore the other half of the playerbase that would prefer to do otherwise. No other healer or tank is forced into a way to play like this, WHM shouldn't be either.

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If they wanted the healer to be a pure healer and have no DPS capability at all, they would have removed the DPS capabilities. They haven't. If they wanted to put a hole in the current meta without torpedoing it, all they have to do is make HoT's rip enmity away from the tank whenever they're stacked or clipped. Hence regen OR medica II, not AND. The game never calls for two stacks of HoT's. Ever. Scholars don't have have them, and can't spam them.

you are pointing out the command missions. please note your Squad has NO MP bar, if you've played WHM, you can gauge where the MP would be per cast. even with Lucid, if you were playing as the NPC Squadron Clerics, you'd be out of MP way too fast.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Snip

If they wanted the healer to be a pure healer and have no DPS capability at all, they would have removed the DPS capabilities.

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And if they would have done that, leveling a healer would be impossible. This is why since at least Everquest, healers have had some sort of decent damage capability.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Command mission:
MSQ, pretty much every time

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Moro asked you to show them a hardcore raider healer who spams Medica II/Regens...

Command missions and MSQ are not where you find hardcore raid healers.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

the command mission point directly towards using Cure II to heal.

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Command mission healers are Conjurers...........................they don't even have lillies and you do realize Conjurer's only have 4 healing spells right? Cure, Cure II, Medica, and Medica II. So of course they will use Cure II to direct heal? They don't have Regen, Tetra, Assize, Asylum, Bene, or Plenary.

If you are just going to reply to people with your usual tangents that have nothing to do with what they asked you then why bother to reply at all? Like I've said many many times before you always do this when confronted with something you can't argue.

Tangents, tangents, and more tangents of irrelevant stuff. Command mission CNJ's have nothing to do with raid healing or even end game healing for that matter for extremely obvious reasons. MSQ is level 50 where you don't even have anything to use Lillies on until level 52. None of this is end game healing.

What does level 50 MSQ healing and conjurer command mission healing have to do with level 60+ healing???

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Which I will reiterate. The gauges are there to tell you how SE thinks players should be doing the job. If you want to play it inefficiently, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. They are not limit break bars. But please don't pretend that Yoshi-P hasn't made it clear

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What SE or Yoshida think has nothing to do with this topic.

Just because the devs design something one way or another doesn't mean the community has to smile and accept anything they do. If people want to ask for changes to lillies then they can do that.

Trying to argue about what someone else said they want to see changed about lillies just because YOU personally think they are okay is useless in the context of this thread.

This thread is asking for changes people want to see for 5.0. These posters don't care what you think about it or how the devs designed it. They are listing changes they personally want to see for whatever reason they want it.

Just so you know they could change lillies easily where the less optimized play style of using a lot of Cure I/II AND the more optimized play style of using regens effectively to make room for more DPS can both benefit from Lillies. So what is your problem with this? You'll still be able to play your less optimized style.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And don't be surprised if whatever they change to WHM and AST next pushes harder against the raider healer meta.

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You don't even understand the raid healer meta, so...I don't understand like.... what is this anyway? Trying to threaten raiders or something with your opinions just because some WHM's want lillies changed for the better? /shrug

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it.

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You are definitely wrong. You have no experience in savage or ultimate raids on healer so what makes you think you know anything about raid healer meta?

Can the WHM people stop moaning in every single thread? Seriously... There's a bunch of threads to discuss about WHM, like this one http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...he-Lily-II-now
Please go there and stop messing around other threads that has nothing to do with WHM like this one.
Thank you very much.

Again, if they're trying to push for healers to use their manual heals more, they're doing an awful job at it.
There's just not enough incentive to use these heals when your OGCD heals handles everything.
I'd also like to say that even though SE seems hell bent on making healers out to be pure healers, they constantly give them DPS quality of life. Just look at the Maelfic III and lightspeed changes for AST. Does that look like changes that punish DPSing?

Also, I can't believe you're using the very shaky, very subpart NPC AI fighting style to observe how you should heal. That's a first for me...

As someone that mains drg I want my ring of thorns back

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong.

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So~ When are you going to post a video of Swallow's Compass / Hell's Lid / Fractual Continuum (Hard) so you can show us how you play WHM properly? :) I'd love to review that thoroughly like I did in the past with a previous video.

In all seriousness, the Lily system needs rework because the habits it teaches you effectively tells you to ignore optimizing 95% of the rest of your kit. If we're supposed to only use Tetra / Assize / Asylum when we have three lilies, we'll probably only end up using them one time each during the course of a raid encounter.

The CD reduction on lillies mean nothing if you aren't firing the CDs on cooldown but we have trouble generating Lillies because we can only get them from using single target heal spells. How counter intuitive is that?

I can't believe that your grand argument relies on command missions as a lynchpin.

I can't even.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it. The proof is in the pudding.

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http://33.media.tumblr.com/aebeb686a...h43ko1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There are two ways to play WHM. You can use Cure and Cure II as your main heal, exactly like Yoshi-P plays it. You then have 20% more use off Assize and never run out of MP and rarely even need to use Lucid Dreaming. This is the "fishing for a proc" method of using Cure with free Cure II's. It's the same on AST, as Benefic does the same with Benefic II.

Or

You can play the Raider meta WHM which is to overheal by casting regen and medica II needlessly so that you can maximize DPS. Same with AST, cast the HoT's and then just DPS.

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Wrong.

There have never been two ways to play White Mage. It functions precisely the same as every healer; you maximize the number of oGCD and Regen ticks you can exploit to avoid casting heals as much as possible. The fact you cite "raider meta" only to subsequently claim they overheal demonstrates your profound lack of understanding. Good raid healers have little overhealing because they allow HoT to tick people up. Cure II spam, meanwhile, is an absolute waste of your MP which can be better spent on Stone IV or Aero II/III. Fishing for free Cures is even worse due to you using your least efficient heal. The odds are staggeringly low you will ever actually benefit from that, especially when White Mage has far superior options at its disposal. For example sake...

Cure I: 10,441
Regen: 3600-3800 range per tick

Even at the lowest estimation, that Regen will tick for 25,200 at the cost of only 240 more MP. Unless the tank needs immediate HP, Regen is VASTLY better than Cure I and even Cure II. Granted, the latter at least has more value.

Regardless, what the hell qualifications do you have to speak on "Raider meta?" You aren't a raider, do not even try to optimize, spent the better part of pre-Stormblood being laughed off the forums following your insistence White Mage heals in a manner it simply doesn't and yet you have the audacity to critique people who have not only theorycrafted healers but have Ultimate clears under their belts? At least you have White Mage leveled this time.

Hmm, I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage? Miss Kisai who has never dabbled in anything harder than a dungeon or Entropy's White Mage who used Cure I once in their clear of Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Can the WHM people stop moaning in every single thread? Seriously... There's a bunch of threads to discuss about WHM, like this one http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...he-Lily-II-now
Please go there and stop messing around other threads that has nothing to do with WHM like this one.
Thank you very much.

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We're not complaining in every thread. This is a thread asking for what we wanted, I mentioned the lily system. If debates like this happen just over the mere mention of lilies though, I guess that tells you what we think of it.

I want all jobs to get a medicate skill.

Cos everybody knows this girl writing huge essays of nonsense is clearly off her meds.

for monk gives us a ranged attack like all the other melee dps just do something with stances we still spend pretty much all of our time in fists of fire

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

However the first strategy is what SE has indicated is the correct strategy, and thus they've devised the gauges to reflect that

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Okay let's get back on topic with the saintlike generosity of assuming you're correct.

WHM: In 5.0 I'd like them to make this be a Job that's not destined by design to utterly suck for people who press all of their buttons instead of half of them.

I really need to revisit that 5.0 spreadsheet I was making to share. Sadly life got in the way. but maybe I'll post what I have so people can see what could be, XD

I'd like more branching jobs, like SCH/SMN. I think it's a wasted opportunity for them not to pursue this, as it's easier than creating a brand new job.

Pugilist>Tank Monk
Archer>Priest(Rosa FF4)
Lancer>Tank Dragoon, with a equippable dragon on the off hand.
Marauder>Berserker(DPS)

Stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Command mission healers are Conjurers...........................they don't even have lillies and you do realize Conjurer's only have 4 healing spells right? Cure, Cure II, Medica, and Medica II. So of course they will use Cure II to direct heal? They don't have Regen, Tetra, Assize, Asylum, Bene, or Plenary.

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Please actually play a command mission before trying to explain how they work, because clearly you don't. The healers in the command missions have Medica II at ALL levels. They don't use it until the party has taken damage, which is the thing I've being saying and have not suggested they should be casting anything else. Rather the command missions illustrate how the developers think players should be healing as another example of why the WHM's gauge is also tuned to act on Cure and Confession stacks are from Party-Healing Medica/Medica II/Cure III and not from DPS and don't have any bearing on DPS, because you only get the Lily and Confession stacks from not overhealing. If you're playing the game by overhealing using HoT's , especially on easy content, then you of course aren't going to be able to make use of these gauges and don't benefit them because you're overhealing.

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Originally Posted by Miste

If you are just going to reply to people with your usual tangents that have nothing to do with what they asked you then why bother to reply at all? Like I've said many many times before you always do this when confronted with something you can't argue.

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Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Tangents, tangents, and more tangents of irrelevant stuff. Command mission CNJ's have nothing to do with raid healing or even end game healing for that matter for extremely obvious reasons. MSQ is level 50 where you don't even have anything to use Lillies on until level 52. None of this is end game healing.

What does level 50 MSQ healing and conjurer command mission healing have to do with level 60+ healing???

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Because that is how SE and Yoshi-P has designed the healing. You don't throw away half your toolkit when you turn level 50. Look at the kind of comments people keep snarking out. "Oh the lily system is useless, because nobody uses cure" , and when I say I do, you're like "then you suck" rather than "oh well how do you get past X, when I have to spam so many HoT's and oCD's to get past it?"

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Originally Posted by Miste

What SE or Yoshida think has nothing to do with this topic.

Just because the devs design something one way or another doesn't mean the community has to smile and accept anything they do. If people want to ask for changes to lillies then they can do that.

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The way SE and Yoshi-P sees it has everything to do with the topic see it says "Job change wishlist" not "changes I don't want SE to make, please don't read". The person who first posted about lilies in this thread, also posts nothing but "the lilies suck" in every post they make, so they want the job to change to appease a small portion of players who aren't playing the job correctly in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Trying to argue about what someone else said they want to see changed about lillies just because YOU personally think they are okay is useless in the context of this thread.

This thread is asking for changes people want to see for 5.0. These posters don't care what you think about it or how the devs designed it. They are listing changes they personally want to see for whatever reason they want it.

Just so you know they could change lillies easily where the less optimized play style of using a lot of Cure I/II AND the more optimized play style of using regens effectively to make room for more DPS can both benefit from Lillies. So what is your problem with this? You'll still be able to play your less optimized style.



You don't even understand the raid healer meta

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Oh, I know what the raid healer meta is, is the meta bad players learn from raiders and then try to use on every piece of content because it gives them the max deeps. s/ , you know on content that isn't bloody contest. The same players complain about having nothing to do because they are making it so they have nothing to do. The same players complain about content when it's not even 3 days old because they already sucked the fun out of it with a parser.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There have never been two ways to play White Mage. It functions precisely the same as every healer; you maximize the number of oGCD and Regen ticks you can exploit to avoid casting heals as much as possible. The fact you cite "raider meta" only to subsequently claim they overheal demonstrates your profound lack of understanding. Good raid healers have little overhealing because they allow HoT to tick people up. Cure II spam, meanwhile, is an absolute waste of your MP which can be better spent on Stone IV or Aero II/III. Fishing for free Cures is even worse due to you using your least efficient heal. The odds are staggeringly low you will ever actually benefit from that, especially when White Mage has far superior options at its disposal. For example sake...

Cure I: 10,441
Regen: 3600-3800 range per tick

Even at the lowest estimation, that Regen will tick for 25,200 at the cost of only 240 more MP. Unless the tank needs immediate HP, Regen is VASTLY better than Cure I and even Cure II. Granted, the latter at least has more value.

Regardless, what the hell qualifications do you have to speak on "Raider meta?" You aren't a raider, do not even try to optimize, spent the better part of pre-Stormblood being laughed off the forums following your insistence White Mage heals in a manner it simply doesn't and yet you have the audacity to critique people who have not only theorycrafted healers but have Ultimate clears under their belts? At least you have White Mage leveled this time.

Hmm, I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage? Miss Kisai who has never dabbled in anything harder than a dungeon or Entropy's White Mage who used Cure I once in their clear of Ultimate.

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Hmm I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage, Yoshi-P and the dev team who plays this way I've pointed out, or 4% of the player base who who raids with parsers then complains about healers being boring and complains that content is boring.

Why on earth would the developers ever listen to the raiders who aren't playing the content correctly in the first place, and use parser tools as a crutch? There is no way in hell that the developers can or even should listen to the people using the parsers, because what the parser users are asking for is for content to be nothing but DPS checks that you can just stand still to maximize dps with because your ego will be bruised if you don't get some high marks on a third party site using a parser that only guesses how HoT's and DoT's work to begin with. The parser also guesses how long combat is, thus very trivial things will have large differences.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So~ When are you going to post a video of Swallow's Compass / Hell's Lid / Fractual Continuum (Hard) so you can show us how you play WHM properly? :) I'd love to review that thoroughly like I did in the past with a previous video.

In all seriousness, the Lily system needs rework because the habits it teaches you effectively tells you to ignore optimizing 95% of the rest of your kit. If we're supposed to only use Tetra / Assize / Asylum when we have three lilies, we'll probably only end up using them one time each during the course of a raid encounter.

The CD reduction on lillies mean nothing if you aren't firing the CDs on cooldown but we have trouble generating Lillies because we can only get them from using single target heal spells. How counter intuitive is that?

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Why should I post a video here? So I can take the insults from you guys again and have my channel videos downvoted out of spite because none of you can be bothered to watch it for more than 7 seconds. No thanks. All that experience showed me is that maybe three people care about legitimately offering advice and everyone else is just a jerk who wants to lay in a burn.

I get through all the content I want to play on WHM if I'm collecting tomes or raid rewards.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

We're not complaining in every thread. This is a thread asking for what we wanted, I mentioned the lily system. If debates like this happen just over the mere mention of lilies though, I guess that tells you what we think of it.

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Which is, players who don't play the game like SE/Yoshi-P want you to, and instead play it like a green DPS, complain about it like it's a limit break gauge and they're somehow missing out on something. If you don't want to play it the way SE wants you to, you're not being forced to. But please don't pretend like the Lily gauge doesn't work, because it does. Wow look shorter CD's on the level 52-60 (the HW skills) Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton. Of which the lilies aren't stopping you from casting them to begin with.

What the supposedly "best" raiders do, has a detriment the rest of the player base when they're told to do things, that only are ever true when you're undergeared for the content, and is only about optimizing for speed to beat the enrage timer so you have better parses than the other players who use the same parser.

I'd really like to hear what the Japanese raider meta is because Yoshi-P and the developers obviously pay attention to them and not us, and they have larger clear rates.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

Okay let's get back on topic with the saintlike generosity of assuming you're correct.

WHM: In 5.0 I'd like them to make this be a Job that's not destined by design to utterly suck for people who press all of their buttons instead of half of them.

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Oh you know it's not going to end until we have a 50 page thread again. If anyone reading this decides "oh I need to lay in my sick burn" just don't. I'm not telling you you're playing the job wrong, I'm telling you SE is telling you are playing the job wrong and have not done anything to help or hinder your meta, so please leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

*ding*ding* we have a winner. That is how SE believes players are playing it, and thus that is how it's designed. If you want to adhere to some alternative meta, go right ahead, the lilies neither help nor hinder you.

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The very first thing you learn when studying game design in university - the designer is not always right (in fact a lot of the time, they are horribly wrong). Lilies are a terrible design for many, many reasons.

Anyways, some more things I have thought of that I would like.

1. An actual DoT DPS class like Necromancer.
2. More dungeons you can AoE pull. I love dungeons that you have a choice of either speedrunning (the funnest) or taking it easy. Not a fan of being forced to take it slow.
3. Extreme Dungeons.
4. This goes hand in hand with improved character creation - being able to swap animations. I would like the Hyur animations on my Roe and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

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There's a lot of irony in this statement coming from you - because you are guilty of doing the exact same things when people challenge your world view on how WHM healing should function.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Why should I post a video here? So I can take the insults from you guys again and have my channel videos downvoted out of spite because none of you can be bothered to watch it for more than 7 seconds. No thanks. All that experience showed me is that maybe three people care about legitimately offering advice and everyone else is just a jerk who wants to lay in a burn.

I get through all the content I want to play on WHM if I'm collecting tomes or raid rewards.

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Don't you think that's indicative of something? Even if the OF only represents a small percentage of players, a rather large percentage of these posters disagree with your opinion on several levels. Don't you know that's telling of your own opinion in the matter? Perhaps you shouldn't feel your opinion is law and everyone else who disagrees with you is a troll or looking to fight as all that does it make you look worse.

Take that from someone who legitimately watched your entire 55+ minute Antitower and gave a thorough opinion on everything I thought you both right and wrong.

And yes, I did watch all 55+ minutes of it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion.

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Well when you say stupid stuff like

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong.

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as a flat out statement, expect to be corrected. You can play however you like, but running around talking about how the Lily system is perfectly fine when a good majority of WHMs agree that it's just eating up screen space with how useless it is, and then going on to say anyone who doesn't agree is a bad WHM....expect people to challenge your opinion.

Also you keep mentioning it, but just because SE made it this way doesn't mean it's the way it should be.

Yoshi and his teams aren't gods, and frankly, they can do some pretty stupid things at times. The lily system is one of those stupid moments that even they seem to want to move away from seeing as Divine Bension is not even tied to it anymore. This is definitely one of those cases where the devs dropped the ball and, even if their intentions were to get people more into the "pure healer" identity, need to backpedal with this design. It's flawed and doesn't work in parallel with how most healers actually play the game.

wait I've got It I want an end to white mage lily arguments!

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There's nothing wrong with the lilies. Use the skills with the lower recast when they are ready to fire if you need it. To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills. With the WHM, the lilies and confession stacks only generate when you aren't overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong. That's the point. Thus the reward for doing the job correctly is having other related skills be usable more frequently. Don't ever expect this to change. It is not a limit break gauge.

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Okay. I've freaking had it with you. You've managed to derail yet another perfectly good thread by jumping in and shoving in your opinions on how other people should play the game, when you assume how things work from things you've never done (and likely have zero interest in doing so).

What's worse, you're talking about how my class works to justify your views on how your class is supposed to work. Bard gauges tell us how long our songs will last, and to plan accordingly based on our crit procs. For Wanderer's Minuet especially, it -does- tell us how strong our Pitch Perfect is going to be if we decide to use it. It -is- a mini-limit break for us. To pretend it isn't for the sake of twisting your argument is absolutely insulting.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The worst healers in this game, are the ones that do not understand that it's ok to stop casting. Pre-pull regen/medica ii/aspected benefic/aspected helios is a direct result of players being told to do the raider meta without knowing why. Spamming regen, medica ii/aspected benefic/aspected helios is a direct result of raider meta being incorrectly applied.

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it. The proof is in the pudding.

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Yeah, you're wrong.

Raiders have even more reason to be ticked at people who prepull regen. Why? Because it means the healer is generating unnecessary amounts of emnity and overhealing like hell when there aren't even any unavoidable party-wide AoEs going out. It means the tank has to spend extra GCDs building more emnity before they can safely switch to DPS stance. And it also means the healer is wasting an incredible amount of MP for no benefit at all.

I'm a Bard. I would freaking know, it's my job to use my skills to alleviate the burdens of everyone in my party, whether it be damage reduction, debuff removal, healing potency increase, or resource management, all while juggling my DPS. O8S runs especially will fail or succeed based on how the two healers manage their MP, how the tanks manage their cooldowns against the frequent tankbusters, and how I respond to their demands. Before you say 'oh they'll just keep the regens up 24/7 to maximize their DPS', no, it does not work that way at all. The high-end raids do enough damage that there are very few situations where regens alone will heal the party back up in time before next big AoE comes out.

You don't even raid. Why do you keep speaking matter-of-factly on things that you have zero experience in? What is your end goal here? You did this when you recorded yourself in Antitower a year ago (and you even admitted yourself then that it was your first time playing that dungeon period, with the exact same arguments you're presenting in this thread RIGHT NOW), and I and many others gave you advice to help improve then. And said advice wasn't even anything remotely close to raider optimization advice.

So, I will repeat what I told you a year ago: Why do you insert yourself so passionately into arguments regarding matters in which even you yourself admit that you have little experience in? At least back then, you admitted your lack of experience. Now, almost one year later, you behave largely the same as before, the main difference being you pretend that you have actual experience and victimize yourself afterwards, which is far worse.

But you keep inserting yourself into arguments, derailing thread after thread and even continuing the same exact arguments across multiple threads by bringing up things that would be unrelated until you decide it becomes relevant (like the way you took a shot at raiders out of nowhere in this thread when talking about the lily system, because of course you had to), presenting yourself as an expert on these matters, when you are anything but that. Do you have any sense of self-awareness?

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Now to actually answer the original intent of the thread...

Having played every job to at least 60+, my main issue with the lily system is the following: It doesn't have any basis in lore compared to the other job gauges. Consider how the AST job gauge heavily emphasizes their card setup, or the SCH fairy gauge shows how much power has been built up in their fairy to be used. Or, better yet, WHM's eternal rival in the lore - BLM, incorporating their usage of Fire, Ice, and Lightning aether. The lilies are quite tacked on and thematically out of place in comparison, like the developers ran out of ideas and that it only exists for obligatory purposes. Maybe WHM doesn't need it, but the fact of the matter is, in its current incarnation, it could be removed entirely and many WHMs wouldn't even notice the difference.

How could the developers improve it? I would rather it be taken out and replaced with something that actually represents a WHM's usage of -their- three elements - Wind, Water, and Earth. Though actually achieving this would be harder than it sounds, as it seems around 75% of a WHM's toolkit is currently considered to be wind-aspected.

As for Bards themselves... Bards as they are now are in a rather 'perfect' state. We only have three real weaknesses, all of which are minor problems compared to what every other job has to wrestle with design-wise.

1) Our lack of a knockback prevention skill (which MCH also lacks). Perhaps this is something that should never be addressed for obvious reasons - we don't really *need* it unless the party as a whole has failed a mechanic somehow (O5S and the lack of boxes for the Bard/MCH to use to defend themselves against the knockback wind in particular).
2) Army's Paeon being used as filler compared to the other two songs. I imagine this will be addressed come next expansion - perhaps for the return of a Flaming Arrow-type skill to be used when we reach max stacks during Army's Paeon.
3) No way to force Refulgent Arrow during our openers, being purely at the mercy of the RNG. This is probably something that will be addressed come next expansion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Please actually play a command mission before trying to explain how they work, because clearly you don't. The healers in the command missions have Medica II at ALL levels. Rather the command missions illustrate how the developers think players should be healing

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Please actually read my post.

You think I haven't done command missions? I'd like to know where you got that idea from? Just because I raid you assume I don't do other content? You made an incorrect assumption.

I do every single piece of content in this game except for Ultimate...and well Lord of Verminion, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who did do that anyway.

Where did I say that the command mission healers don't have access to Medica II below level 50?

Point it out in my post.

Where did I say it?

I can wait......oh....it's not there.... Want to know why? Because I've done command missions and I know they can use it pre-50, but that fact had nothing to do with my point. Fancy that...

But, you know I assumed you would do this. You can't find any flaw in what I countered you with so you go off on things I never said or have nothing to do with anything like what level the CNJ in command missions can use Medica II. Can you explain what relevance that has?

I'd like you to show me a video of a command mission CNJ using Assize, Regen, Asylum, Bene, Plenary, or Tetra. What level they use Medica II at has nothing to do with my point. My point was that a CONJURER doesn't have access to any of these spells/abilities that I listed since they are all WHM ones.

So, no, command missions are definitely not illustrating how a WHM should heal...since it is a CNJ and not even a WHM. This is really obvious.

A CNJ is not a WHM and using a CNJ healing kit to say that WHM should heal like that is beyond ridiculous. A CNJ only has half the spells and abilities that a WHM has.

Not to mention your whole argument started about lillies and CNJ doesn't even have lillies. So seriously what were you expecting here?

You just can't admit when you are wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

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Are you sure you aren't projecting? This sounds like you are talking about yourself as well.

You don't usually throw insults, but you sure know how to work the passive aggressive.

Also before you volunteer to throw me in there too, I am totally fine with admitting I am passive aggressive sometimes.....to people who do it to me first and I have a great memory. I am of the belief that you don't dish out passive aggressiveness if you are afraid of getting some back at you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because that is how SE and Yoshi-P has designed the healing. You don't throw away half your toolkit when you turn level 50. Look at the kind of comments people keep snarking out. "Oh the lily system is useless, because nobody uses cure" , and when I say I do, you're like "then you suck" rather than "oh well how do you get past X, when I have to spam so many HoT's and oCD's to get past it?"

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Never said you throw it away, simply there are better ways to play healers in which you do your best to optimize in a way to avoid overhealing and also avoid using GCD heals. The top healers AVOID overhealing which is why you showed already you don't understand it since you claim raid healer meta is to "overheal needlessly"

I don't condone anyone telling someone else that they suck, but it is a fact that you are playing a less optimized way if you rely on Cure I/II instead of the other tools you have. It's just a fact about how the game is designed. That's it. Obviously there are bad ways to convey this.

If you don't want to optimize? That's fine. Since you don't do savage/ultimate where it is expected.

I really hope you are not accusing ME of saying you suck, because if you look at my post I did not say that anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The person who first posted about lilies in this thread, also posts nothing but "the lilies suck" in every post they make, so they want the job to change to appease a small portion of players who aren't playing the job correctly in the first place.

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Exiled just really wants things for WHM and, yeah, she is maybe a bit too enthusiastic with how much she posts it, but she can post in here with her job change wishes if she wants. So too bad? Just because you complain that she wants to change lillies do you really think she'll stop for you? She can post what she wants. /shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Oh, I know what the raid healer meta is, is the meta bad players learn from raiders and then try to use on every piece of content because it gives them the max deeps. s/ , you know on content that isn't bloody contest. The same players complain about having nothing to do because they are making it so they have nothing to do. The same players complain about content when it's not even 3 days old because they already sucked the fun out of it with a parser.

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Your bias is showing....


Also you should REALLY read what Saito said and think on it. He posted a very thorough post before I could finish this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

it's ok to stop casting

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You’re wrong and have no idea what you’re talking about

Quote:

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Originally Posted by weedlord

You’re wrong and have no idea what you’re talking about

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To play devil's advocate here, it's not exactly wrong, as long as you have an actual plan (like expecting a tankbuster and reacting to the damage immediately, before the tank risks death by getting auto'd a split second later). Although that would probably be better solved by finding a time to precast so that the heal hits between those two attacks, even if using an oGCD is safer.

If you're just standing there like a moron, then yes, it is essentially wrong and don't be surprised if the other party members call you out on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong.

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I'm not a WHM player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the context of all the conversations here...

Shouldn't you use the lilies the moment you hit 3? There's no bonus that I recall to having lilies (correct me if I am wrong) so holding onto them is literally wasting their potential unless you somehow have nothing to use it on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Okay. I've freaking had it with you.

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Stopped reading there. Why throw your argument away by opening with an insult?

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

Now please. if you don't want more discussion about lilies and WHM, then stop bringing it up. Some of you just really want me to be wrong, even when I'm objectively right about the lilies and how SE wants you to play WHM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The very first thing you learn when studying game design in university - the designer is not always right (in fact a lot of the time, they are horribly wrong). Lilies are a terrible design for many, many reasons.

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But not the reason people are citing. You may also have heard of the term "Emergent gameplay". "The Meta" is not emergent gameplay it's berating users for not adhering to the fastest strategy so that they get better parses for fflogs. Remove the parser from the picture and people would discover that yes, the game is balanced, no healers do not need to maximize DPS, and yes the content is fun.

The same killjoy raiders complaining about lilies are the same ones who think the content is boring. Stop and smell the roses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I'm not a WHM player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the context of all the conversations here...

Shouldn't you use the lilies the moment you hit 3? There's no bonus that I recall to having lilies (correct me if I am wrong) so holding onto them is literally wasting their potential unless you somehow have nothing to use it on.

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As I said, it's not a limit break bar. If you are waiting for 3 lilies by casting cure before using the 4 skills that are affected, then you're just wasting those skills. There are 4 oCD's, you can burn all of them one after the other, and all the lilies do is shorten the recast timer. If for some reason you need all 4 oCD's at the same time, then that will be the only time you are even impacted by the lilies, because the recast times will be longer.

Assize has a 60s recast, 3 lilies = 48sec (SOL I), + X (SOL II)
Asylum has a 90s recast, 3 lilies = 72sec (SOL I) + X (SOL II)
Tetra has a 60s recast, 3 lilies = 48sec (SOL I)
Divine Benison has a 30s recast, = 24sec (SOL I)

Like as an example, if you're using cure/cure II, a lot, then Assize and Asylum will pretty much always be up due to SOL II, regardless if you have zero or 3 lilies. All the lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies by doing what you normally do, then you'll just have to settle for the normal recast times of the 4 skills the lilies remove recast time from. The actual way the game appears to do this is by subtracting 5 seconds for SOL II, or 4/10/20% upon the lily being generated for SOL I. The recast time isn't suddenly added back to the other actions if you use the lilies. If they are already available to use, then the lilies do nothing, because using any of the 4 skills resets the lily counter and the recast times.

https://youtu.be/JQSyPv45FrY

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it. I could be wrong, because as I said, Assize is up pretty much all the time for me and, I don't pay attention to the lilies, so I just use it if it's available. So people shouldn't get themselves twisted in a knot over the lilies. None of the gauges on any of the jobs do anything but tell you what activates the procs. They are not limit break bars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Stopped reading there. Why throw your argument away by opening with an insult?

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

Now please. if you don't want more discussion about lilies and WHM, then stop bringing it up. Some of you just really want me to be wrong, even when I'm objectively right about the lilies and how SE wants you to play WHM.





But not the reason people are citing. You may also have heard of the term "Emergent gameplay". "The Meta" is not emergent gameplay it's berating users for not adhering to the fastest strategy so that they get better parses for fflogs. Remove the parser from the picture and people would discover that yes, the game is balanced, no healers do not need to maximize DPS, and yes the content is fun.

The same killjoy raiders complaining about lilies are the same ones who think the content is boring. Stop and smell the roses.

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So you're not even going to read the argument, you're just going to ignore and deflect, and put words into other people's mouths and project? I didn't even talk about parses, but you felt the need to bring it up. I wonder why. I don't have anything against non-raiders (I pug almost everything without a second thought, as I'm of the belief that running everything with a static group of people closes off your perception to the true state of the game and its community, and playing with different people is the best way to learn how to adapt to every possible situation quickly), but I do have issues with people that are being completely disingenuous about it. Know that I only felt compelled to join in largely because you decided to talk about how Bard gauges worked in a completely wrong way, to support a misguided view on how WHM lilies worked.

I started playing at the start of HW, and I was too scared to raid until A9-12S was released, when I decided I wanted to improve myself as a Bard and help everyone I ran across in turn. Even the thought of doing Sephirot EX, two patches after it was released, scared me halfway to death, but I decided I really wanted the bird - and I wanted to EARN it. So you won't see me going around belittling non-raiders, unless they are speaking as you are right now. What you're doing right now is basically the equivalent of a toxic party member blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings, with no regard for the group effort. If you took 'you don't even raid' as a personal insult rather than an observation leading into questioning your personal stake in this argument, then that's on you.

Why should anyone even respect your arguments then? You're clearly not here to engage in a discussion in good faith if you're going to open with "Stopped reading there", you're here for the exact reason that I suspected upon entering this thread - to push your agenda on everyone else with no thought of self awareness.

Maybe if you'd actually read my post, you'd see that my problem with the lily system isn't even for raid reasons, it's purely from a game design standpoint, lore-wise and in terms of responsiveness. It's a fact that the WHM lily system is a very unresponsive system compared to every other job gauge out there, and as a student of design myself, it really irks me. (It is also quite the teaching lesson, as well.)

Now that we've established that, perhaps it's time to let this argument die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now please. if you don't want more discussion about lilies and WHM, then stop bringing it up. Some of you just really want me to be wrong, even when I'm objectively right about the lilies and how SE wants you to play WHM..

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This thread was of people posting what they wanted to see changed on jobs, not a “debate people’s wishes” thread. If you see it come up so much, then go to one of the other threads where they are ACTUALLY discussing it, instead of derailing the topic of the OP. Go to the healer forums, there’s at least three you can jump into. This is also not a parse debate thread. Wanna argue about that, go to one of the many threads specifically about parsers. You have many options. Stop derailing a thread that has nothing to do with what you are complaining about.

For RDM.

1: Condensing some of the spell combos to reduce bloat like they did in pvp.
2: More OGCDs like fleche and contre sixte to make me feel like a turret

For SMN.

1: Something to make the dps loss less punishing if you die.
2: More spells that interact with your summons, or maybe abilities that temporarily summon something to perform an attack.

For AST.

1: More dps utility so i don't die of boredom in dungeons. Maybe an OGCD ability.
2: Do something with the cards. I hate fishing for a good pair. It feels good when you keep getting them, but it's ughh when you keep getting boles and arrows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Stopped reading there.

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Stopped reading there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I'm not a WHM player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the context of all the conversations here...

Shouldn't you use the lilies the moment you hit 3? There's no bonus that I recall to having lilies (correct me if I am wrong) so holding onto them is literally wasting their potential unless you somehow have nothing to use it on.

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For some reason, I was under the impression that each lily also increased potency of heals and shortened cast times on GCD skills. I don't know where I got this impression though, and switching to WHM myself to look at the tooltips, it seems that was never the case. Which means holding onto all 3 of them is even worse. Huh.

melee and tanks: give us the dot back, we really need it as a rotation filter, currently all rotations are too inflexible when you have to move away from boss for a few GCD or close to a boss jump away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

For some reason, I was under the impression that each lily also increased potency of heals and shortened cast times on GCD skills. I don't know where I got this impression though, and switching to WHM myself to look at the tooltips, it seems that was never the case. Which means holding onto all 3 of them is even worse. Huh.

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Yeah, so I wasn't going crazy. I imagine if they *did* affect the skills like that they'd both be more useful and have a more meaningful choice while using them.

Actually, in all honesty, if the lilies actually did something beyond affect the cooldown of skills when they were used, would people have a better opinion of them? I don't know what WHM would find the most useful, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Shouldn't you use the lilies the moment you hit 3? There's no bonus that I recall to having lilies (correct me if I am wrong) so holding onto them is literally wasting their potential unless you somehow have nothing to use it on.

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I see you have fully grasped the scale of fallacy with which we're contending. Even from the point of view that was being argued, that statement is absurdly wrong. I thought maybe it was just a troll post, and the hits kept coming. Command mission healers are the best players. Yoshi-P is infallible, even at factual reality's expense. Using a parser makes you a bad player and a bad person. All the tamest replies are ignored while blanket-insulting everybody who disagrees (which seems to be everyone who's posted), then shrieking like a wounded deer when people respond in kind. Classic, toxic threadjacking, either intentionally trolling or too warped by a persecution complex to concede any point. The fact that they wouldn't even back down from the singularly ridiculous thing you've quoted makes it clear that there's no point taking a word of this seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Actually, in all honesty, if the lilies actually did something beyond affect the cooldown of skills when they were used, would people have a better opinion of them? I don't know what WHM would find the most useful, though.

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It depends what that "something" is, I suppose. If they had an effect to increase your damage output in some way then that would help to offset the loss of damage you sustain by using Cure and Cure II. Ultimately I think the range of possibilities is severely limited by the way Lilies are generated presently. It just does not make much sense with the way the Job functions in a live game setting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I see you have fully grasped the scale of fallacy with which we're contending. Even from the point of view that was being argued, that statement is absurdly wrong. I thought maybe it was just a troll post, and the hits kept coming. Command mission healers are the best players. Yoshi-P is infallible, even at factual reality's expense. Using a parser makes you a bad player and a bad person. All the tamest replies are ignored while blanket-insulting everybody who disagrees (which seems to be everyone who's posted), then shrieking like a wounded deer when people respond in kind. Classic, toxic threadjacking, either intentionally trolling or too warped by a persecution complex to concede any point. The fact that they wouldn't even back down from the singularly ridiculous thing you've quoted makes it clear that there's no point taking a word of this seriously.

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Marry me?

/10char

I'm still laughing at the "Yoshi-P's idea of how the job should be played is the correct one and everyone else is wrong" logic considering it's been proven incorrect multiple times. 2.0 Warrior, for example which he said was "fine" to death until they realized no wait, it's actually not fine and needed some help. Or how players found a better way to play Ninja then the dev team back when it came out and they had to nerf its damage as a result because it was too strong.

The dev team is not infallible and yes, players do more often find the most efficient way to play a Job.

On topic, I'd like them to give Samurai (and Black Mage) more raw power, so that they're far above any raid utility-providing DPS in personal damage. Make it so it's not as efficient as a full meta party, but they at least can hit the contribution of some of the lesser raid buffs in pure damage. Stacking is not really an issue because you get shafted on LB gauge as a result.

Barring that, give them raid utility. Maybe give Samurai the opposite of Red Mage's Embolden, where they buff magic users in the party and give themselves a physical buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it. I could be wrong, because as I said, Assize is up pretty much all the time for me and, I don't pay attention to the lilies, so I just use it if it's available. So people shouldn't get themselves twisted in a knot over the lilies. None of the gauges on any of the jobs do anything but tell you what activates the procs. They are not limit break bars.

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I'm going to say this again for devil's advocate purposes.

Bard Wanderer Minuet gauge is composed of two aspects, the song timer and the arrow stacks. How many stacks you have equates to the strength of Pitch Perfect when used, and once used, you have to charge it up again.

Summoner gauge transforms based on usage of Aetherflow skills, leading into being able to use Dreadwyrm Trance, which further leads into summoning Bahamut-egi itself. In some cases, Dreadwyrm Trance and Bahamut-egi might as well be a caster limit break in terms of overall strength when properly utilized.

For a non-DPS example, let's take Scholar's fairy meter. Their meter increases based on usage of Energy Drain (the only offensive Aetherflow skill that SCH has) and Excogitation (a preventive buffer heal that activates when the target's HP drops below 50%). It's used to execute Fey Union, one of, if not -the- strongest heal over time skill in the entire game, and Fey Union drains the fairy meter.

I'm sure several other jobs that I have little experience with have gauges that behave similarly. If these are not the definition of something that behaves like a limit break bar, then I don't know what your standards for one are. Lilies are very boring in comparison (-especially- compared to the fairy meter, which is somehow even more simplistic than lilies in design but more intuitive in practical use), and that's where most of the grievances lie.

Stop using my (and other peoples', for that matter) class to justify your arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

For a non-DPS example, let's take Scholar's fairy meter. Their meter increases based on usage of Energy Drain (the only offensive Aetherflow skill that SCH has) and Excogitation (a preventive buffer heal that activates when the target's HP drops below 50%). It's used to execute Fey Union, one of, if not -the- strongest heal over time skill in the entire game, and Fey Union drains the fairy meter.

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Small note, Fey Gauge goes up for anything that uses Aetherflow stacks. Also, we have Bane for offensive Aetherflow, but only for groups, obviously.

I haven't really read everything, I just know that someone is apparently trolling in regards to the WHM Lily Gauge. I can't say much about the system since I main SCH. And although I personally don't have an issue with the system, I can see how some player dislike it; hey the Fairy Gauge isn't stellar either, but it is better, lol. Why not rework it into a system that mimics the BLM system, kinda. Like maybe a Water Gauge, cause god knows they need more water moves, maybe like a Flood Gauge. The gauge could still increase with heals, so you still feel rewarded for healing, but the gauge could work towards more rewarding moves, and maybe their level 80 move could be the actual Flood spell. I dunno, the gauge is thematically identical to most of them, but just a reduced cool down feels weak.