Are the DPS checks for Nidhogg EX excessive?

had a dps and healer dc at the start of last phase - still won.

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

At first i am not even sure if this is a satire or not -.-

Serious though, your group failed dps check probably was a result of failing mechanics, or using CDs at wrong time. The fight might fucked up a lot of BLM/SMN if they can't time their enochian or trance, so i guess it could only be the same for other job. Also without people failing mechanics too hard, as healers you can add a lot of dps during the dps check phase too (adds and nails i assume).

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SMN is always the easiest job when it comes down to handling mechanics while also sustaining damage. The nature of Aetherflow makes this even more true, since you can use it, but not 'use' it. ;)
You can always decide (depending on time left until the boss goes away and AF cooldown) to refresh attunment in the last second, to save up all AF-stacks for up to 45s into AF-Cooldown or just use DWT if you can't do first or second one.
I think no other class can "carry over" more dps from one phase into another, if he wants to... enough dps on adds? I can save my stacks, while AF Comes back from CD and I have 6 stacks now on opener for his man-form. Not enough dps on adds? I use my stacks and carry over only the DWT (with refresh on last second it is just perfect timing). Still not enough dps on adds? I'm gonna use DWT, too.

Three different options (1. least damage adds, highest damage boss, 2. high damage adds, high damage boss, 3. highest damage adds, least damage boss), all with AF kept on cooldown and no loss regarding the ammount of Cooldown-Usage.
What other class can do this? ;)

No just no. If anything nidd ex is too easy

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

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Nothing against SMN, what i meant is that for new players there which doesn't have that much experience with the fight, the "random" jumps or phase change can messed up their rotation/aetherflow/trail if they don't pay attention :D totally agree that SMN is awesome though :P

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Go check your DPS with SSS.

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SSS is something that is suspect in my eyes. I know how low the DPS can be and still get a kill. I know what I do with my crappy geared MCH in that fight. Based on this, I know what I could do with my similar crappy geared SMN in this fight, after getting a little bit comfortable. It would be more than enough, not even close to the bare minimum. But I did fail at the dummy with 1% left (one try).

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

SSS is something that is suspect in my eyes. I know how low the DPS can be and still get a kill. I know what I do with my crappy geared MCH in that fight. Based on this, I know what I could do with my similar crappy geared SMN in this fight, after getting a little bit comfortable. It would be more than enough, not even close to the bare minimum. But I did fail at the dummy with 1% left (one try).

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In the real fight theres other ppl that might exceed the minimum, + healer and tank dps, which then becomes enough

Nidhogg is easiest HW primal so far. Minimum lvl to enter is enough, i think its something like 225.

The interesting thing is: Only those who beat it saying "its easier than other..."
Reminds me of good old Coil days where server first groups said "mechanics are so boring easy blabla..."

The Problem we have is static programming, just switch some jobs from your savage static and you will struggle A LOT more than usual. there are things like "worst case" and not only smooth runs... we dont need nerfs, we dont need to make it harder, we need something that take credit from individual strengths. Most games doing that with character customization and skill trees - the player who lacks in staying alive can spend points to defence or life points (as example) - Square Enix forces player into a DPS check frame and giving little to no possibilities with gear (even materia is a joke!)

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

I've helped as a healer in groups where just 1 DPS got a little bit above the 1k mark and the other 3 were between 900 and 1k at the moment of the kill.

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You sure you were in EX? I'm going to call BS on this one. You need a raidwide 7500 to clear the adds in time and there's no way you are doing that with four DPS circling 4k total unless your healers and tank are seriously epicly carrying you.

As an aside, I did a quick search on a handful of the folks who were saying that it's way too easy and as expected, they are all circling the 240 end of the gear spectrum with pentamelds\etc. This is much less forgiving for someone at the intended ilvl, which is also why Thordan and Seph seemed so hard - you didn't have 20+ ilvl + pentamelds on the content when it launched. I think it's harder for those who are just catching up and\or don't have a static raid team. It does feel like it's a harsher check for those right on the 220 mark and as time goes on and those people get more geared, they will clear. Mechanics-wise it's actually more forgiving that fights like Titan, so for those folks who are behind it's just going to be a matter of getting gear.

I did not save this one. But you can go to logs and take a look into kills with more than 11 mins duration. There are some very similar kills.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You need a raidwide 7500 to clear the adds in time.

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Its more about having cooldowns ready for adds. The add phases are burst phases. The raidwide overall DPS tells you nothing about meetign a DPS check like this add phase, hands of pain and many other in between checks in this game.

No one will do constant flat damage. The classes and the fights are not designed this way.

Not excessive at all -- if you think the adds are bad, you're really going to struggle with fang and claw!

That being said though, I know my DPS is not the best and I'm actively looking for ways to improve too.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Not excessive at all -- if you think the adds are bad, you're really going to struggle with fang and claw!

That being said though, I know my DPS is not the best and I'm actively looking for ways to improve too.

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Actually Fang and Claw are more dependent on doing mechanics, not raw DPS numbers. As long as reds are eating damage and blues aren't, you're getting to towers. the biggest problems I have seen there is healers refusing to stoneskin the blue stack point player and players mixing up their tether colors.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

If you are failing the DPS check in that fight then the group you are running with needs to get better at their classes.

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This 100%. I join clear parties to see if I can help carry people for a clear but there are still so many doing 400-600 DPS @i225+.

Tried SSS yet?

People really need to use the tools available to them instead of wasting other people's time. Like sure there are mechanics that interrupt your rotation but really?!?! 1/3 1/4 of the damage that should be going out for the minimum ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

This 100%. I join clear parties to see if I can help carry people for a clear but there are still so many doing 400-600 DPS @i225+.

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400 DPS? That person might actually be AFK and only auto-attacking. I can't imagine any rotation at all, even old 2.0 ones, that would result in only 400 DPS at an ilvl of 220. Are you sure you weren't looking at the healers?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

400 DPS? That person might actually be AFK and only auto-attacking. I can't imagine any rotation at all, even old 2.0 ones, that would result in only 400 DPS at an ilvl of 220. Are you sure you weren't looking at the healers?

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Well if your not using buffs really and not keeping dots up I can see that being possible.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

No. People are just garbage.

Also, when's the last time an EX primal was nerfed? Ramuh's Titan-egi's tanking?

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That's the opposite; that's the players' abilities getting nerfed, not the primal. Also not that it mattered by that point but the lustrate change killed another strat there too.

DPS checks for Nid EX are perfectly fine.

The DPS on NA servers on the other hand seem to be getting worse and worse though. In half the parties some healers and tanks that are only around Ilvl225 are outdmging DPS by 1-2 hundred now days in fights. This should never happen. People just need to learn the rotation or they need to simple fail all the content. Doing rotations is not hard.

But people need to learn if you are ILVL 220 + and are only getting to 66% on the Nid EX practice dummy... you probably really really suck at your job and should fix it.

One simple fix would be to require people to do the dummy, can't kill it can't que up for the fight. Would stop the people who are clueless on their jobs from wasting 7 others ppls time in party finder and would make actually joining a learning party for a newer person not a utter waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-their-weight.

Both this one, and the linked above being on the front page of GD at the same time... I can't.... It's just... LOL!

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I stand by Parse Box watchers more so than Mediocre players as being that OP's problem

The only thing that needs to be nerfed on Nidhogg are the drop rates on the Lanner Whistle and Nidhogg's Scale.

He drops a whistle? ive done Nidhogg enough times to have all weapons except for 2 (bought about 6) and never seen that damn whistle drop. Scales maybe 4 lol

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

DPS checks for Nid EX are perfectly fine.

The DPS on NA servers on the other hand seem to be getting worse and worse though. In half the parties some healers and tanks that are only around Ilvl225 are outdmging DPS by 1-2 hundred now days in fights. This should never happen. People just need to learn the rotation or they need to simple fail all the content. Doing rotations is not hard.
But people need to learn if you are ILVL 220 + and are only getting to 66% on the Nid EX practice dummy... you probably really really suck at your job and should fix it.

One simple fix would be to require people to do the dummy, can't kill it can't que up for the fight. Would stop the people who are clueless on their jobs from wasting 7 others ppls time in party finder and would make actually joining a learning party for a newer person not a utter waste of time.

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I disagree with that last statement, what about those who say fail at 1% for example, your idea would lock them out too, remember SSS does not take into consideration class benefits from either buffs or whatever else, plus mechanics, it truly is not the best way to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Just saying. Also I don't mean this for Nidhogg alone, I mean it for anything, using SSS for an example is not the best way to go about it as it's not accurate.

"Excessive"? Are you kidding me? The only reasons why you wouldn't be able to pass them are if people died or the dps are really REALLY bad.

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

I disagree with that last statement, what about those who say fail at 1% for example, your idea would lock them out too, remember SSS does not take into consideration class benefits from either buffs or whatever else, plus mechanics, it truly is not the best way to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Just saying. Also I don't mean this for Nidhogg alone, I mean it for anything, using SSS for an example is not the best way to go about it as it's not accurate.

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SSS doesn't take food and potions into account for the sake of doing it-but this only means they aren't required to be used to get an accurate reading, using those buffs still helps you on the dummy. If you're not clearing a dummy at 1% then you still shouldn't be able to do the fight as a DPS, as 1% can easily be made up by using a potion, or getting a slightly better piece of gear.

Or hell just melding on a determination IV, so many things you can do to make up for 1% that it's not even worth bringing up.

The day these trials are balanced by the devs to allow a team of bottom of the barrel to get through it with 500 dps in 230 gear and 3+ deaths, may be the day I actually stop playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

the biggest problems I have seen there is healers refusing to stoneskin the blue stack point player

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And why should we? They're not going to die unless they're low on health. If you believe the fang doesn't get healed when a blue tethered person receives no damage from a hit, or the hp the fang recovers is proportional to the damage taken, then you are incorrect. I crit adlo's the eye of the tyrant target because I thought that too... they took 0 damage, they still had galvanize even, but the fang still recovered a set % of hp. It's healed whenever a blue tethered person takes a hit, not when they take damage.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

SSS doesn't take food and potions into account for the sake of doing it-but this only means they aren't required to be used to get an accurate reading, using those buffs still helps you on the dummy. If you're not clearing a dummy at 1% then you still shouldn't be able to do the fight as a DPS, as 1% can easily be made up by using a potion, or getting a slightly better piece of gear.

Or hell just melding on a determination IV, so many things you can do to make up for 1% that it's not even worth bringing up.

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I've seen a few all the same that came close that could still make it up but couldn't at the time, I just don't feel locking them out of the trail because they couldn't clear it no matter what no matter how close they got is the proper way to handle it, they may not clear the dummy but once they get into a party and practice it things may change.

TBF that sounds more like when they get to a party with other player who has much higher ilvl or with very good tank/healer who dps a lot they might get a clear because the other players can somehow provide the missing dps. Ofc not saying they didnt work for it, but if you put all ppl who are at ilvl 220 and barely manage SSS, they might be able to clear the fight, but damn that gonna be hard and take a lot of tears and sweat and repair cost :D Good thing is being able to clear a fight when all party is at entry ilvl means you pretty much learnt the fight xD

Some seem to forget the boss or monster having limited lifepoints!
If one member doing awesome DPS then one other can NOT do high DPS because the monster is already dead or skipping phase or whatever...
If all doing 1k in savage its the "norm" but when you have one doing 1500 then there must be an other just doing 500... you get the idea?
There can be a lot reasons for "one" to do more damage than others (AST buff as example) but i recently seeing that happen a lot, special if ilvl 240 players are pairing in dungeons with ilvl 220 players...

I just like to say: the so called "weak" or (as you like to call them: afk) player, may do all right and still cant compare because the other one have taken some of his damage...
One Example from experience: BLM casting while MNK is killing the target before cast finished -> MNK getting all the honour for DPS and BLM is kicked for being lazy...
(Sidenote: I know some who said they do it on purpose and have fun when BLM could not cast, gives them an edge of thrill)

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

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Your post is kinda funny though. Beside missing 1 spell won't bring a BLM dps from 1000 to 500 :P Any BLM know how to play it will either change target first, or use instant cast. So a weak/lazy DPS will still be a weak/lazy DPS even if all other dps doing nothing let them kill the add alone :P

Also why it's partially true that 1 very high dps can affect other dps, it will only happens if the monster is nearly one-hitted or the phase change happened too quick that it screw up the "normal" rotation, this, can mostly happen in unsync content only.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

If all doing 1k in savage its the "norm" but when you have one doing 1500 then there must be an other just doing 500... you get the idea?

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Uhm. No. They can do both 1500 and the mob dies faster.

When one is doing more, the other "can" do less. but thats not a "must".

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

this, can mostly happen in unsync content only.

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Its also happening in current content. With the current gear we get more and more in trouble to get cooldowns ready for some DPS checks in Midas savage and have to reorganize our strategy.

I meant the extreme case where a person get their dps down from 1000+ to under 500 xD or get their rotation totally screwed. For example when i go titan ex unsync with friend on my SMN i like to burst the first few phases (so many instant cast) and see our blm couldnt really get their cast off :P

Beside your savage problem wasn't 1 person dps screw other dps but more like everyone too high dps screw themselves :P

Edit: also the way i wrote it was because i'm not really agree with how Yukiko use that like an excuse to defense the lazy/weak/afk-dps in a dungeon. The "laziness" wasn't caused by some party members doing extremely high dps, but the player themselves chose to be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

The interesting thing is: Only those who beat it saying "its easier than other..."

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Dude, it isn't that difficult to learn to improve your DPS. SE even gave you a tool to gauge your own performance in a fully kosher way. There are plenty of youtube videos, this very forum has a superthread for every job, and a website that cannot be named which has play by play breakdowns of every top tier player in difficult content for your perusal. There are sooo many resources at your disposal.

You wanna know whats the secret of statics? composition matters very little its 95% player skill, an excellent player will output enough DPS to clear most content regardless of job (barring ultra early prog in Savage), and you wanna know how those players got good? they studied their resources and practiced.

the DPS check for NidHogg is extreeemmeeely lenient. Any easier and it basically becomes Normal mode.

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

I disagree with that last statement, what about those who say fail at 1% for example, your idea would lock them out too, remember SSS does not take into consideration class benefits from either buffs or whatever else, plus mechanics, it truly is not the best way to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Just saying. Also I don't mean this for Nidhogg alone, I mean it for anything, using SSS for an example is not the best way to go about it as it's not accurate.

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Such a scenario is unlikely since you can keep consistent DPS uptime on a dummy as they aren't mechanics which may hinder your buffs. Even then, the clear could be set at say 10%. Basically, enough to say you could handle the fight from a DPS perspective.

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

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How do you messure your DPS?
Well... we shouldnt go further into details, its against rules...
Your post is kinda funny though. Not even knowing any details but judging and ignoring whatever doesnt fit in your thinking...

@KarstenS: Dont quote out of context please, maybe it clears things up a bit...

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

No. People are just garbage.

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Even though this was already quoted, I feel it needs to be emphasized. Not for the insult, but the underlying message.

The DPS check on Nid X is very mild and easily managed even at 220. Proper rotation. Proper mechanic execution. These are the problems, not the DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

I disagree with that last statement, what about those who say fail at 1% for example, your idea would lock them out too, remember SSS does not take into consideration class benefits from either buffs or whatever else, plus mechanics, it truly is not the best way to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Just saying. Also I don't mean this for Nidhogg alone, I mean it for anything, using SSS for an example is not the best way to go about it as it's not accurate.

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SSS is just a check to see if you, in isolation, at or above minimum ilevel for the fight, know your job well enough to push out enough damage so that your in-fight damage remains high enough while handling mechanics. If you fail to meet the DPS check, you need to reassess what you're doing on the job. If you're clearing the DPS check barely, you can look at clearing it faster. Jumping to excuses for failing to meet the check isn't making anyone a better player.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

One simple fix would be to require people to do the dummy, can't kill it can't que up for the fight. Would stop the people who are clueless on their jobs from wasting 7 others ppls time in party finder and would make actually joining a learning party for a newer person not a utter waste of time.

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This is a good idea!

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

I disagree with that last statement, what about those who say fail at 1% for example, your idea would lock them out too, remember SSS does not take into consideration class benefits from either buffs or whatever else, plus mechanics, it truly is not the best way to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Just saying. Also I don't mean this for Nidhogg alone, I mean it for anything, using SSS for an example is not the best way to go about it as it's not accurate.

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SSS is meant for testing if the player is properly geared and knows their DPS rotation well enough to meet the minimum DPS check for any fight. It's meant to be completed without party buffs, food or potions. So if a DD player can't complete it, they simply don't have what it takes. And if they can't perform their rotation well enough on a non-moving target without any mechanics to worry about, how can they be expected to carry their weight in the actual fight? If they're failing at 1%, at least they don't have to improve a lot.

So I agree with this person:

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

SSS is just a check to see if you, in isolation, at or above minimum ilevel for the fight, know your job well enough to push out enough damage so that your in-fight damage remains high enough while handling mechanics. If you fail to meet the DPS check, you need to reassess what you're doing on the job. If you're clearing the DPS check barely, you can look at clearing it faster. Jumping to excuses for failing to meet the check isn't making anyone a better player.

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While most people are talking big, i kinda curious, did any of you beat the SSS with ilvl 220 to back up your claims?

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

While most people are talking big, i kinda curious, did any of you beat the SSS with ilvl 220 to back up your claims?

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I cleared it with my i216 DRG, will post video soon. No str potion/food with slight mistakes. DRG not my main DPS job.

edit: Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTX0...ature=youtu.be

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Originally Posted by DGladius

I cleared it with my i216 DRG, will post video soon. No str potion/food with slight mistakes. DRG not my main DPS job.

edit: Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTX0...ature=youtu.be

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someone actually delivered, good job