is selling housing bannable?

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Originally Posted by Celef

Actually there is, player used to buy multiple plots just to resell them 10 min laters for 10 or 15 millions (heard of a FC with 26 houses only used to resell)

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Well that is understandable, but if there is someone who's foolish enough to do that then well that's their problem. Ok i'll admit you do have a point there, I'm thinking smaller scale, those who individually own their own plots, those who want to make something, but not on that kind of scale

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I might not need my medium plot soon, auto-demolition has been put on hold and SE have provided us with no way to relinquish our land. Not all of us are looking to profit, if I was to 'sell' my land I would only want what I paid for it. The lack of features implemented towards these aspects of housing are not the players fault, so like any commodity in game it should be allowed to go on sale.

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I could see that prior to the patch but now that 3.3 is here now houses are not worth what you paid for. A medium house was 37 million for best grade plot is now only 20 million. So even though you paid more originally you still asking for person to pay more for house then what they worth now.

Rumor has it there are individuals ready to buy almost an entire ward worth of houses for themselves. That is to say; one ward, for one player (alts). Pretty darn impressive, to be honest. First it was the grapevine, now there even are posts about it on bulletin boards like Reddit. Impressive.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I could see that prior to the patch but now that 3.3 is here now houses are not worth what you paid for. A medium house was 37 million for best grade plot is now only 20 million. So even though you paid more originally you still asking for person to pay more for house then what they worth now.

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Then they could buy the plot after for the new, reduced price. My conscience can still be clear because I didn't profit from anything. The alternative would be a house sitting there for many months being unused, while there are many people out there who are willing to pay for the plot. That's quite the opposite of being a 'nuisance' to players, because you're actually opening up an unused plot to someone/an FC who otherwise did not have one. Again, I'm not saying this is completely fair but with the lack of demolition options, there's not much else to do.

My main point here is that I don't think selling in general should be so frowned upon, because there will be people like me who just have ONE plot that they want to get rid off. It's not hard to distinguish between someone who is doing that, and someone who is buying like 8 plots with alts.

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Originally Posted by Cwestcott18

Well that is understandable, but if there is someone who's foolish enough to do that then well that's their problem.

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And it becomes our problem cause, not enough plots + greedy people abusing the systeme = innocent players who worked hard (or FC), got the Gils but won't be abble to buy cause they have the founds for the plot, not the 10 millions asked for the relinquish :/
(god it's hard to explain something when it's not your mother tongue ^^")

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

My main point here is that I don't think selling in general should be so frowned upon, because there will be people like me who just have ONE plot that they want to get rid off. It's not hard to distinguish between someone who is doing that, and someone who is buying like 8 plots with alts.

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I you don't want it anymore, just leave it for free, you are not supposed to get your money back if not using the 45 days system they add to the game

The rules aren't enforced (or even clarified) consistently enough to give a definitive answer about whether it's allowed.

We can make some guesses, though. If you're selling a plot that you yourself have used for a while, and selling it for around it's original price or lower, then you're not as likely to get banned for it as if you're selling multiple plots you've never used for several times their original price. Hoarding housing and then gouging people on the price is a bigger issue than simply getting paid to release a house you're done with. It's that hoarding and price gouging behavior that falls into the "disrupting game features" rule (or however it's phrased).

Even charging someone the original purchase price (the official original purchase price that is) means they have to pay double that (by paying both the "seller" and the game), but at least it indicates the seller wasn't hoarding a plot just for the sake of overcharging for its resale. Charging anything above the original price, however, isn't going to look good if a GM checks it. (Of course, there's still the chance you can get away with it if nobody reports the sale so no GM ever does investigate it.)

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I might not need my medium plot soon, auto-demolition has been put on hold and SE have provided us with no way to relinquish our land. Not all of us are looking to profit, if I was to 'sell' my land I would only want what I paid for it.

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You do have a way to relinquish land. Just open the menus and do it. That's what I did. Ask around from your friends, linkshells and fc if there's anyone who doesn't have a house.

If you were to get what you paid for a medium house, the buyer would have to pay as much as a large house costs for your medium house since he/she has to also buy the land from the game. Every time the land is repurchased someone loses the plot buying fee. Trying to make someone else handle the gil-sink mechanic is not right nor intended, because if it were intended the houses would be directly sellable via trade. When people "only" ask for what they paid for, the price goes up after every relinquish. From the buyers point of view it makes no difference if it's a housing hoarder or a 5th owner of the land asking for that 5x price. It's still overpriced compared to the original price in game.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

You do have a way to relinquish land. Just open the menus and do it. That's what I did. Ask around from your friends, linkshells and fc if there's anyone who doesn't have a house.

If you were to get what you paid for a medium house, the buyer would have to pay as much as a large house costs for your medium house since he/she has to also buy the land from the game. Every time the land is repurchased someone loses the plot buying fee. Trying to make someone else handle the gil-sink mechanic is not right nor intended, because if it were intended the houses would be directly sellable via trade. When people "only" ask for what they paid for, the price goes up after every relinquish. From the buyers point of view it makes no difference if it's a housing hoarder or a 5th owner of the land asking for that 5x price. It's still overpriced compared to the original price in game.

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And trus me, we are a lot on cerberus who don't have houses ! :p

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Originally Posted by Celef

I you don't want it anymore, just leave it for free, you are not supposed to get your money back if not using the 45 days system they add to the game

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Again, invalid because the demolition feature has been stopped. And not many people would freely leave a medium/large plot. Small maybe, but not the other two. I'm quite baffled that people would rather a plot sit there abandoned for however long than actually allowing a willing person to pay to relinquish it.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Again, invalid because the demolition feature has been stopped. And not many people would freely leave a medium/large plot. Small maybe, but not the other two. I'm quite baffled that people would rather a plot sit there abandoned for however long than actually allowing a willing person to pay to relinquish it.

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Cause when you do that, you ask someone X millions of gils (we were talking 28 mllions on another thread if i remeber correctly) they where not supposed to pay, especially now that a medium plot is around 7 millions.
Sooooo, It's racketing cause if you leave your plot like Reinha said or used the 45 days system, they won't have to pay extra gils

No matter the reason, the act of "resale of housing" (as most people wrongfully call it) is dishonest and wrong.

The game does not allow the selling of housing between players, and it's probably that way for a reason. If the ones buying houses become bored with it and don't want it anymore, their one and only option should be to simply relinquish it. If they aren't happy with losing the gil they spent, then maybe impulse buying of housing is what's the real problem. Think before buying; Am I really going to use it long enough to justify the price?

That's how the game is designed, whether you agree with it or not. If you were selling the house itself for the price you got it, it would be alright. Selling the act of relinquishing the house, even if it's for the price you paid it for, is still ripping someone off of gil they would normally not have to pay for the house, so it's wrong.

Sounds harsh? That's the housing system, though. No matter how flawed it is.

Just like it's annoying to you that you have to lose your gil if you don't want your house anymore, it's annoying for someone who wants a house but cannot find one due to it being limited.

There's downsides for both "sides", so there's no reason to pity anyone because they no longer want their house but they don't want to lose their investment. It's a selfish excuse that encourages a dishonest practice.

</endrant>

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Originally Posted by Celef

Cause when you do that, you ask someone X millions of gils they where not supposed to pay, especially now that a medium plot is around 7 millions.
Sooooo, It's racketing cause if you leave your plot like Reinha said or used the 45 days system, they won't have to pay extra gils

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From what I understand is its more about are you willing to pay to get your own plot sooner than later, so that's what the extra gil is for, and the plot owner isn't really taking advantage of the other person, because they are receiving the amount they asked, it is the buyers own decision to spend double. Which if someone is desperate enough to do

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Originally Posted by Celef

Cause when you do that, you ask someone X millions of gils they where not supposed to pay, especially now that a medium plot is around 7 millions.
Sooooo, It's racketing cause if you leave your plot like Reinha said or used the 45 days system, they won't have to pay extra gils

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Once again, the 45 day system which isn't actually active, so for the tenth time it's not a valid argument. Also it's funny how people are fine with this if someone puts a PF up for 'looking to buy', but not the other way round. It's the same process, just initiated by the other party.

I'll state again that I'm not condoning multiple purchases for reselling, but I'm not going to continue arguing about selling single plots, the salt here is too real. Quite frankly, people who geniunely want to get rid of their plots aren't going to have much difficuly a few days into the patch.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Again, invalid because the demolition feature has been stopped. And not many people would freely leave a medium/large plot. Small maybe, but not the other two. I'm quite baffled that people would rather a plot sit there abandoned for however long than actually allowing a willing person to pay to relinquish it.

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I know of couple people on server I play on that have given up house for free there one person that has even bought houses for the sole purpose of just giving away. So yes there may not be that many but there are people that do it. Most people are more interested in getting their gil back then letting someone have the house that would use it.

The 45 days system was implemented for the sole purpose of compensating for the involuntary loss of housing from being away from the game for a long time.
It was not meant as a way for you to have your money back for your house when you get sick of it. If you choose to consider it so, it's your business, but your argument is completely invalid.

Got sick of your house? Relinquish it. Don't want to lose your money? Wait it out.

Some people have been waiting for the opportunity to buy a house in a fair and proper manner for much longer than you'll have to wait for them to reinstate the automatic reclamation of housing.

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Originally Posted by Cwestcott18

Well mostly yours XD

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Why me. T_T Is it because of my black kitty, does he look evil?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Why do people (not you) excuse others when they exploit the 'game design' in a way that disrupts others? I mean, seriously there are numerous ways in which individuals or groups can rain on another players' parade in an MMORPG that involve exploiting the game design, bad or otherwise, why do we need to excuse people who do this? Hell, I've seen people making a virtue out of this reselling of plot relinquishment information like it's some kind of exemplary instance of capitalism in practice, when in fact it's little more than carpetbagging.

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I think people flock this particular exploit so much because it affects so many people and really leaves a stain on the community.


It is wrong that so many others get away with exploitation but more people need to voice what they don't like, just as some r in this thread.

ALSO KOS-MOS I LUV U

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I'll state again that I'm not condoning multiple purchases for reselling, but I'm not going to continue arguing about selling single plots, the salt here is too real. Quite frankly, people who geniunely want to get rid of their plots aren't going to have much difficuly a few days into the patch.

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Of course it's salty, I'll assume some of us here do not have houses, might not get one tomorrow and you come saying we should accept to be racketed (not sure if the word exists ^^") because SE did not do things properly and some people take advantage of the situation ^^"

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Also it's funny how people are fine with this if someone puts a PF up for 'looking to buy', but not the other way round.

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That's your assumption. I'm 100% against people that try to buy housing from "resellers". The buyers are as much a part of the problem as the sellers.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Of course it's salty, I'll assume some of us here do not have houses, might not get one tomorrow and you come saying we should accept to be racketed (not sure if the word exists ^^") because SE did not do things properly and some people take advantage of the situation ^^"

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Well really what "selling a house" is, is really accepting a bribe to relinquish the land you own. It's not really buying any property. Last I checked, bribery is illegal so...

I do agree with you btw, just trying help find another word!

I'm not salty because I don't have a house. I've been waiting patiently for new plots with this patch because the particular house I want is a very sought after location.. And frankly i'm not angry at the people selling plots because it might hinder me from buying one.. No I'm more angry at the ones reselling plot to everyone else who isn't as patient as I. Yes I understand the people buying the plots r to blame for giving sanction to this behavior but I would like to beleive they r doing it out of desperation n no other alternative to get a house other than beign patient..

the way i see it is SE should have set a limit on housing where you could only buy one plot per account even if your the fc lead it counts toward your house limit and if people wanna sell their house at a reasonable price that doesnt break the other persons bank just cuzz the owner doesnt use the house then let em do it. these others who buy like 3 houses and try to flip em for a profit just dont buy from them if they ask for too much we got those price listings for plots go by that

I haven't seen nobody banned for selling on my server for selling plats. But I also never see unbuilt plots either. Sometime when I see them post I actually visit it to see if they were just holding land and flipping. And everytime it's a fully furnished house on that land. So I feel they should implement a system like the 45 day one but with no wait. Also u would get like 65% of your Gils back instead of 80%.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Except it's too late to do that. **snip**

There's no way to fairly implement this anymore. They should've thought about it beforehand.

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There is a fair way. Most people recognize that housing really is/should be a one per player kind of thing, so offer account holders with multiple personal homes/plots a choice of which one they can keep, then compensate them with the purchase price of the plots being relinquished. Limit personal housing to one private house per account with all characters on the account counting as the 'owner', this would prevent complaints about one house per account preventing other characters from owning a home. Further, explicitly limit FC housing to one house per FC. Implement a transfer system so that if you decide to move house and purchase an equivalent plot elsewhere, you can transfer your entire home, lock, stock and barrel for a nominal fee.

If those hoarding plots were compensated for their 'loss', I can't see the tiny minority of players who are in that situation screaming too loudly, and if they do, I can't imagine they'll get much sympathy.

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Originally Posted by Blackbird1

the way i see it is SE should have set a limit on housing where you could only buy one plot per account even if your the fc lead it counts toward your house limit and if people wanna sell their house at a reasonable price that doesnt break the other persons bank just cuzz the owner doesnt use the house then let em do it. these others who buy like 3 houses and try to flip em for a profit just dont buy from them if they ask for too much we got those price listings for plots go by that

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No, limiting *personal* housing to one per account is reasonable. Preventing Company masters from owning a personal home, on the other hand, because their FC owns a Company home is unfair, and un-necessary. Personal and FC housing were meant to be separate in the first place, and they should be. Punishing Company masters for purchasing a Company house is counter productive.

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Originally Posted by Rhodkr

Well really what "selling a house" is, is really accepting a bribe to relinquish the land you own. It's not really buying any property. Last I checked, bribery is illegal so...

I do agree with you btw, just trying help find another word!

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Indeed

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Originally Posted by Morzy

I think people flock this particular exploit so much because it affects so many people and really leaves a stain on the community.

It is wrong that so many others get away with exploitation but more people need to voice what they don't like, just as some r in this thread.

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Unfortunately, when it comes to forums, many times people are afraid to stick their head above the parapet and utter an unpopular view, and so they stay silent.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

ALSO KOS-MOS I LUV U

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I'm generally unable to remain silent. :) KOS-MOS is blushing.

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No, limiting *personal* housing to one per account is reasonable. Preventing Company masters from owning a personal home, on the other hand, because their FC owns a Company home is unfair, and un-necessary. Personal and FC housing were meant to be separate in the first place, and they should be. Punishing Company masters for purchasing a Company house is counter productive.

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Agreed

I had been saving up for 2 years while my FC has been building our rank to even be able to buy housing. By the time a plot opened, I pounced on it and just shared the house since my FC consists of me and 3 other people. By the time we hit rank 6, I had enough saved to buy a FC house. (I WOULD HAVE just turned my house into the FC but the system doesn't allow for that and I wasn't about to just give up my house on a nice plot for how much and hard I worked for it)

The issue comes down to people feeling they are entitled to do whatever they want with their houses because, for all intents and purposes, they are the owners. Though frankly, that much is arguable considering you can't control the game reclaiming it for you if you don't pay your monthly rent subscription.

Simply put, many people follow what can only be presumed is the official stance for the time being. You pay to use the house. How long you use it for is at your own discretion, but it has no value in your hands as far as the game is concerned once the price is paid, both the initial in-game value and the 45 day fee - whereas a relinquish refund is compensation for an unwanted forfeiture. The problems some people have with even individual resale, regardless of whether or not the plot "generously" matches the original price or not, is basically that housing is an investment and anyone who tries to sell their land is trying to escape the consequences that comes with forfeiting said investment. While not a great example, it's a bit reminiscent of playing a game of snooker/pool and all of the tables are taken up. You're showing interest in leaving and a bunch of people are eager to take a turn with their friends, albeit the person still on the table feels entitled to getting their money back in order to step away because they're obviously in a position of advantage while they take their sweet time. Essentially, it all comes down to common courtesy and etiquette. Selling a plot more or less equates to suggesting that the only price that came with the purchase of the plot was actually little more than getting there first.

*is stupidly amused by the image of a person standing around an actual table/game waiting for someone to pay them to leave*

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Originally Posted by Knahli

*is stupidly amused by the image of a person standing around an actual table/game waiting for someone to pay them to leave*

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I've seen a couple of pints exchange hands for someone to pick up their coins from a pool table in a Student's Union bar before, would that count? ;)

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Originally Posted by Cwestcott18

Nothing really wrong with someone wanting to sell their plot, if someone wants to go around and pay way extra to get it then let them, to many people seemingly want to mark what "way" is wrong, its either complain about others selling plots, or complain about how overpriced they are XD, housing isn't mandatory

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Seller inform his other friends, so they are ready to show up the moment he abandon his plot and spam the houseshield and buy it before the buyer can do it.
The buyer can't report anyone, because he only paid the seller to abolish his plot, what he did.

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Originally Posted by Cwestcott18

housing isn't mandatory

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Unless you want to garden, or do airship ventures, or any other feature for which housing is indeed mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Blackbird1

SE should have set a limit on housing where you could only buy one plot per account even if your the fc lead it counts toward your house limit

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If the FC house counted, but only for the head of the FC, that means the FC head could only have access to one house, while other members could have two.

Or if the FC house counted for everyone in the FC, then for big FCs where most members don't have things like gardening rights, those members couldn't use that game feature anywhere.

Neither sounds very fair.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

offer account holders with multiple personal homes/plots a choice of which one they can keep, then compensate them with the purchase price of the plots being relinquished. Limit personal housing to one private house per account with all characters on the account counting as the 'owner', this would prevent complaints about one house per account preventing other characters from owning a home.

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Agreed. That would help significantly.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Further, explicitly limit FC housing to one house per FC.

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That's already the case.

(When people refer to an FC owning lots of houses, it's really one official FC house and a bunch that are owned by members or alts of members or dummy FCs held by alts of members. If the other rule you proposed about only one personal house per account went into effect, it would cut down on this by removing the houses belonging to alts of members.)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Implement a transfer system so that if you decide to move house and purchase an equivalent plot elsewhere, you can transfer your entire home, lock, stock and barrel for a nominal fee.

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That feature is coming, though I'm not positive when the implementation is planned.

Personally, they just need to make it so that you get your 80% back on releasing a plot, without having to wait 45 days.
Then restrict everyone to one house per account, but make it so all their characters can enter the house no matter which character actually bought it.
As for FC houses it should remain one house per FC.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

The issue comes down to people feeling they are entitled to do whatever they want with their houses because, for all intents and purposes, they are the owners. Though frankly, that much is arguable considering you can't control the game reclaiming it for you if you don't pay your monthly rent subscription.

Simply put, many people follow what can only be presumed is the official stance for the time being. You pay to use the house. How long you use it for is at your own discretion, but it has no value in your hands as far as the game is concerned once the price is paid, both the initial in-game value and the 45 day fee - whereas a relinquish refund is compensation for an unwanted forfeiture. The problems some people have with even individual resale, regardless of whether or not the plot "generously" matches the original price or not, is basically that housing is an investment and anyone who tries to sell their land is trying to escape the consequences that comes with forfeiting said investment. While not a great example, it's a bit reminiscent of playing a game of snooker/pool and all of the tables are taken up. You're showing interest in leaving and a bunch of people are eager to take a turn with their friends, albeit the person still on the table feels entitled to getting their money back in order to step away because they're obviously in a position of advantage while they take their sweet time. Essentially, it all comes down to common courtesy and etiquette. Selling a plot more or less equates to suggesting that the only price that came with the purchase of the plot was actually little more than getting there first.

*is stupidly amused by the image of a person standing around an actual table/game waiting for someone to pay them to leave*

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You forgot the part where when I paid to play at the table, they told me I could play as long as I want, whenever I want, and nobody else could until I decided I no longer wanted it.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Personally, they just need to make it so that you get your 80% back on releasing a plot, without having to wait 45 days.

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Except the 80% money back is a compensation for people losing the house over being away for a long time, not getting rid of it willingly. If it was meant to be a means for people who bought a house to get some of their money back upon relinquishing it, they would have made it so from the get go.

People just need to accept that this is how the system works for now. If they're not willing to lose money over relinquishing the house, they should think carefully before getting one. A gil sink is a gil sink; it's not meant to give you back your money upon relinquishing.

And anyone who thinks they are so entitled to their gil they think it's okay to have someone pay for their purchase on top of their own, that speaks for itself.

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Originally Posted by rswfire

I asked a GM about this a few months ago after browsing the subreddit for housing. Their answer was that there is no in-game mechanic that allows you to actually sell/trade your house to someone else. You don't really sell your house. Someone gives you gil, and you drop the house so they can then buy it. That's just not a real trade.

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So the same would apply to run/pony sales, off MB sales over 1M gil, player casinos, and any other player created exchange.

But in the end there's a nice catch-all in the ToS, saying it's their game, they do what they want.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So the same would apply to run/pony sales, off MB sales over 1M gil, player casinos, and any other player created exchange.

But in the end there's a nice catch-all in the ToS, saying it's their game, they do what they want.

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Aren't player casinos reportable already? I think there was a thread.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So the same would apply to run/pony sales, off MB sales over 1M gil, player casinos, and any other player created exchange.

But in the end there's a nice catch-all in the ToS, saying it's their game, they do what they want.

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Again, similar but not entirely the same.
I don't condone selling runs, because I think it's a pretty stupid practice and promotes laziness, but at least, there, they're selling something. The person actually GETS the kill/drop/whatever, and if they don't, they have sufficient evidence they got double-crossed (through screenshots, chatlogs, etc.).

For housing, you're not paying the player for anything at all other than a sort of bribe ("I'm holding this house hostage until you give me back the money I paid for it."). You're technically being asked to pay for the seller's purchase (or sometimes, several times their purchase) on top of your own. You pay for THEIR past entertainment/use of the house, and then buy the house AGAIN for yourself. Which you could otherwise get for only one of the fees if they were being honest and just let it go as they should.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Which you could otherwise get for only one of the fees if they were being honest.

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Is keeping your house dishonest now? Because if not, they can be honest and you can not get the house at all.

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Originally Posted by Kazza2003

I mean from my point of view it should not be ban-able. You brought the plot, invested a lot of money into it and certainly decided you don't need it anymore or just need the money for something else. So why ban someone who want to give someone else the opportunity to acquire a plot? If SE wants to stop it they should implement a system, where people who want to get "rid" of their plot get a compensation to do so. Either 100% the current price back or at least somewhat of a compensation. As long as SE does not come up with such a system, people will continue to sell the plots they "rightfully" own.

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If those people put said house on the market at roughly the same price they purchased it for, I doubt they would even get reported at all, much less have any GM take notice. It's people who buy a slew of small plots with their alts and flip them for several times what they paid that could get in trouble. That's actively abusing the system, however flawed it may or may not be.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Is keeping your house dishonest now? Because if not, they can be honest and you can not get the house at all.

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Keeping it, no. Trying to bribe someone into giving you back the money you spent for it is.

To be honest, I'd rather they keep the damn house than tried to rob me. But then, if they have no interest for it, they'd just be keeping it out of spite, so that speaks for itself, too.
Like I said earlier; don't want to lose your money? Think about if the investment is worth it. It's no worse than buying a several-millions gil piece of gear on the MB. Are you gonna use it long enough to justify the price? No? Don't buy it.

I do like your attempt to twist my words to make me look bad, though.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Keeping it, no. Trying to bribe someone into giving you back the money you spent for it is.

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Well that's the alternative they've given us. Keep it or give it up for free. I'm definitely not doing the latter. I doubt I'm the only one. So that's less houses available for others because we have no method of selling.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Well that's the alternative they've given us. Keep it or give it up for free. I'm definitely not doing the latter. I doubt I'm the only one. So that's less houses available for others because we have no method of selling.

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They haven't given you an alternative. The community MADE UP that alternative. And it's a bad one.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

They haven't given you an alternative. The community MADE UP that alternative. And it's a bad one.

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Keeping it isn't an alternative?