Eso Tome Cap

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

i don't understand why people feel this way, you aren't being forced to do anything, just play at your own pace

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If you want to do 'best' in your job you'd have to.
You will be always 'worse' (regarding gear) than someone with much more time, something the actual system prevents.
This can affect your raiding... statics may decide (for good reason like versatility) to only get players which have lot more classes geared, if you tell them that you can't do the effort to gear specific classes, too. Every paladin would be asked to gear DRK or WAR as well. And they might be replaced when they don't have the time for this.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If you want to do 'best' in your job you'd have to.
You will be always 'worse' (regarding gear) than someone with much more time, something the actual system prevents.
This can affect your raiding... statics may decide (for good reason like versatility) to only get players which have lot more classes geared, if you tell them that you can't do the effort to gear specific classes, too. Every paladin would be asked to gear DRK as well. And they might be replaced when they don't have the time for this.

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Sounds more like a matter of playstyle then rather than something that needs to be regulated by SE. Gods forbid someone has more playtime and more desire to max everything than you do. Why don't we just make all jobs carbon copies of one another then so we can do away with exclusion based on individual job progression all together?

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

wrong, there's always incentive in the things people do, no matter what it is in life, no one does something for the hell of it, no matter how big or small the incentive it's always there, whether personal or otherwise, there has to be something there to keep you coming back, the current generation are the ones who want everything for nothing, i'm not current generation, i'll probably older than you, i'm just saying if i want to put the work in to gain the rewards, i should be free too, without being held back

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1) You're not older than me, I guarantee it. And that's irrelevant anyway, because people don't always act their age (or ever).

2) I never actually accused you of being part of the current generation, just that you highlighted a problem with it, but that you thought I did is interesting.

3) If you like to do something, that's all the reason you need to do it. You aren't "doing it for nothing", you're doing it because you want to/like to. If you require some extra incentive, especially a material one, before you consider it "worthwhile", then that is proof that you don't actually like said thing.

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

but its how you derive pleasure from whatever it is your doing, maybe we watch the same movie, but enjoy it for different reasons, the game is no different, i enjoy running/grinding content and earning new gear/weapons, making my char stronger and more powerful or to look cooler /whatever, everyone has there own version of fun

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But you specifically said that you like the content, but find it meaningless if you don't get something. Those are contradictory. What you LIKE is getting stuff. You don't actually like the content if you're not willing to do it without getting stuff.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

While completely ignoring the underlying problem in that perspective. My question is.. how the hell did MMOs survive before Blizzard (or whoever they 'borrowed' the idea of token exchanges for gear and caps on them) first implemented the 'feature'? Surely there were only as handful of loyal subscribers to keep the games limping along.

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Low dropchances on the good gears. If you had bad luck it needed months to get what you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If you want to do 'best' in your job you'd have to.
You will be always 'worse' (regarding gear) than someone with much more time, something the actual system prevents.
This can affect your raiding... statics may decide (for good reason like versatility) to only get players which have lot more classes geared, if you tell them that you can't do the effort to gear specific classes, too. Every paladin would be asked to gear DRK as well. And they might be replaced when they don't have the time for this.

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then you don't want to be in a static with asshats who demand you do things, start a static with friends, or start your own and recruit players, unless your in a bleeding edge raid guild there's really no reason for leaders to be demanding over the top requirements from people, its too bad SE didn't just make AF gear a glamour set for each job, and have the actual tome gear shared like the older ones were, i think that might of worked out better

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Originally Posted by Felis

Low dropchances on the good gears

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Yeah, was going to say. Older games got by on terribly low drop chances, long respawns, and sometimes long lockouts too. FFXI, which is a game people love to compare to this one, is a perfect example of a game that utilized all three at varying points of its lifespan.

Of course this is me speaking as someone who quit in the middle of Wings of the Goddess so things may have changed , but I'm guessing that if it did it didn't change much.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

But you specifically said that you like the content, but find it meaningless if you don't get something. Those are contradictory. What you LIKE is getting stuff. You don't actually like the content if you're not willing to do it without getting stuff.

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ok sure fair enough, i don't dislike the content though, but sure yeah the end goal of getting the gear i've earned is my drive, but in an mmo surely that's where most people get there fun, i know people love crafting, or rping, or getting glamour gear etc but yeah for me in an mmo setting, growing my char is what i enjoy, but everything people enjoy doing has a reward at the end or something to aim for, no one is doing something for nothing

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

i don't understand why people feel this way, you aren't being forced to do anything, just play at your own pace

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I am. I always have to have complete all the things or atleast plan to complete them in future.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

I am. I always have to have complete all the things or atleast plan to complete them in future.

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you sound like a perfectionist, im similar, it eats away at you when you don't complete things, you have to learn to let go :P...yes it hurts lol

I think its kinda funny how people are responding and havent even read the OP. The OP doesnt want it uncapped. He feels that each job we have should have their own cap. Personally I agree with it.

people are saying you would be forced to have multiple jobs at max lvl because all Acc and most of the belts are shared between healers, casters, brd and mch.

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Its a real shame people cant get their heads around the concept of 1 Main Job with Supplemental Jobs. most likely because they're used to other titles where being a different class meant logging in on a whole new character.
And even then, speaking as someone who had 17 level capped characters during Wrath of the Lich King, Gearing them all up to the current best was a freaking nightmare. At best, i had 1 class that had amazing gear, 2 classes that were in good gear and then all the others were still in quest gear because there isn't enough time in a week to cap all the currencies and do all the raids ...

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This is exactly how I play and works pretty well. One job gets eso tome gear, the others get law/alex gear. Even the ones that get law/alex gear are still equipped well enough to do all the content anyways.

Unless they start making class/job exclusive accessories down to even the belts, not happening. We (apparently) can't spare that much data on inventory slots and the like, let alone multiple copies of accessories for each of the jobs.

You also need to take into consideration from a design and the playerbase. Maybe you won't try to cap everything per week, but there are others that will, and I'm willing to be that's a good chunk of them. Experience burn out? Their own fault for trying to push after it, but that's still subs lost early into the game's lifespan (a trap that WoW's MoP expansion fell into when they removed daily caps). You don't have to like it, but game developers need to look at more than just your perspective.

Alright...is calling them 'tombstones' some kinda meme I missed?

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Originally Posted by Lemuel81

I think its kinda funny how people are responding and havent even read the OP. The OP doesnt want it uncapped. He feels that each job we have should have their own cap. Personally I agree with it.

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For me uncapped option is better. If there is some cap I always tend to do it no matter what, just complete that every week. If there is no cap and tomes are uncapped I dont feel way that I am forced to do it until I need it. But dont worry, they will be uncapped after 3.2 hits.

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Originally Posted by Akselier

I love it all the comments are making fun of the title insted of talking about the topic.

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To be fair that's the more noteworthy thing about the topic.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

Sounds more like a matter of playstyle then rather than something that needs to be regulated by SE. Gods forbid someone has more playtime and more desire to max everything than you do. Why don't we just make all jobs carbon copies of one another then so we can do away with exclusion based on individual job progression all together?

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Bah, I have plenty of playtime and can probably cap like 7 x 450 tomes if such a cap exists but even I don't want it. All that for what? All you guys ever want to focus on is the gear. What about the process of getting the tomes? It's crappy as hell and you guys don't even care about asking improvements for that because all you want is fricking eye candy.

"Forget about asking for more content variety that isn't overused and abused dungeons and trials and crappy pvp, repeating the same 2 dungeons are fine!! In fact we want to spam it even harder just so we can get gear that we're just gonna use to overkill the spammed dungeons even more!!"

Absurd.

Because SE apparently can't figure out a novel enough way to keep people interested in their game without putting artificial lockouts on everything.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Bah, I have plenty of playtime and can probably cap like 7 x 450 tomes if such a cap exists but even I don't want it. All that for what? All you guys ever want to focus on is the gear. What about the process of getting the tomes? It's crappy as hell and you guys don't even care about asking improvements for that because all you want is fricking eye candy.

"Forget about asking for more content variety that isn't overused and abused dungeons and trials and crappy pvp, repeating the same 2 dungeons are fine!! In fact we want to spam it even harder just so we can get gear that we're just gonna use to overkill the spammed dungeons even more!!"

Absurd.

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When I asked about more complex dungeons with patrols and bigger structures in them like vanilla Sunken Temple in wow i was bashed. People like 20mins long one way corridor from start to end and thats it.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

When I asked about more complex dungeons with patrols and bigger structures in them like vanilla Sunken Temple in wow i was bashed. People like 20mins long one way corridor from start to end and thats it.

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It's a novelty idea, but ultimately it doesn't have longevity to it and can lead to frustrations down the road. It's fun the first time (assuming you ever got a party for sunken temple to begin with), but after that it became tedious, monotonous (especially when you didn't even have a map function for dungeons at the time,) and really...not that much fun. I think 1.0 utilized those same type of dungeon formats as well? I think it fell out for similiar reasons.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Because SE apparently can't figure out a novel enough way to keep people interested in their game without putting artificial lockouts on everything.

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Generic comment just for the sake of typing something +1. Also, know of the saying: if it ain't broke, don't fix it? A handful of complains in the forums pale in comparison to the increasing number of subscriptions they are getting.

You can still play as every job, you just can't gear every job if they allowed such a thing then eventually everyone would have max gear on every job and everyone would be bored.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's a novelty idea, but ultimately it doesn't have longevity to it and can lead to frustrations down the road. It's fun the first time (assuming you ever got a party for sunken temple to begin with), but after that it became tedious, monotonous (especially when you didn't even have a map function for dungeons at the time,) and really...not that much fun. I think 1.0 utilized those same type of dungeon formats as well? I think it fell out for similiar reasons.

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Thats true but atleast it will be something different. Here you have like milion dungeons. They are nice by graphic but they are same on everything. We just getting generic dungeons with different graphic. Start dungeon -> pull everything you can until some barrier -> aoe everything -> some generic bossfight with mechanic you can almost always ingore. -> Repeat whole section 2 more times -> End.

Worst idea I've ever heard...

Everyone already hates doing dungeons, and while getting 450 Eso every week is easy, even that is annoying IMO. Having to do several roulette's (assuming they even split that too) a day, sounds like the worst idea ever.

Sure, you could just cap for 1 job like now, or 2 even, but lets be real here... who wouldn't be pressured to cap a lot more?

Also, a lot of players would be complaining here come 3.1, because they already have all their jobs with full Eso gear, and the new "CT" is worthless etc...

I think they could maybe increase the cap to 900, but only allow to spend 450 for each job every week. So you could gear 2 jobs at once, or even spread it out some. Even that might cause problems down the road though, so I'm not sure.

This isn't how you solve the current problems though. They need more content that isn't locked by weekly timers. As much hate as the relic quests have gotten (it deserves some of it), it actually gives me a meaning to log in more often, and I can't wait for it to come out, oddly enough...

Not saying grinding is the answer, but they need to add some more content that you can do all the time of the week, all day, and not be locked behind anything. It doesn't have to give gear (vanity is nice though), but it also can't be useless rewards.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Sure, you could just cap for 1 job like now, or 2 even, but lets be real here... who wouldn't be pressured to cap a lot more?

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I've leveled all pre-HW jobs to 50 (and am working on getting them to 60), and can confirm that I would prefer a 450/job cap over what we have now. Managing grind pressure is a skill every MMO player should have. No point in denying people the ability to cap as many jobs as they can for that reason at least.

Game balance may be another issue, but denying people the ability to get more esoterics just because they can't manage their pressure and need to have it managed for them is silly.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've leveled all pre-HW jobs to 50 (and am working on getting them to 60), and can confirm that I would prefer a 450/job cap over what we have now. Managing grind pressure is a skill every MMO player should have. No point in denying people the ability to cap as many jobs as they can for that reason at least.

Game balance may be another issue, but denying people the ability to get more esoterics just because they can't manage their pressure and need to have it managed for them is silly.

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Dont worry they will be uncapped in 3.2 .. according your exp gain per day, you will need 6 months, 2 days, 17 hours, 42 minutes, 40 second to get everyhing on 60(including gatherers and crafters). So Esoterics will be ready for you right in time.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

All you guys... you guys...

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All who guys? I'm personally all for an MMO free of gear progression entirely (at least in this current incarnation). I'd be much more happy with content that is enjoyable enough to want to do it just to do it, rather than feeling I need to be rewarded for it. But that isn't this game. No this game hold WoW up on a pedestal so the producer can lick upon those sweet gonads of once 11million subscriber fame. So all we're ever going to get is tired used up content scenarios that focus entirely upon acquiring gear via a token system that they will continually use to hold the majority of the player base hostage with based entirely upon the fear that they might lose a few subs.

But since it is what it is... You get the rest.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Worst idea I've ever heard...

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Is it? Is it REALLY the worst idea you've EVER heard?

I'm sure I've read much worse on these very forums.

Assuming they restrict you to buying gear only for the job you earned your tomes on, a paladin main (for example) can get

- left hand gear with the PLD cap
- right hand gear with DRK, WAR, DRG and MNK

Assuming they don't restrict you from buying gear for other jobs, a paladin main can get

- left and right hand gear with every job available, making it possible to gear up with esoterics in less than two weeks

Both of these options give a severe advantage in raiding for everyone who plays multiple jobs. I don't want this. Raiding should only be affected by how well you prepare, gear and play your main job, not by how many months you've spent leveling alts.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

You can still play as every job, you just can't gear every job if they allowed such a thing then eventually everyone would have max gear on every job and everyone would be bored.

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Not really, it would still take a good 2 months+ to gear your jobs, by that time the next major patch will be out anyway, which will mostly likely involve either better gear or current gear upgrades of some kind af2+1 maybe, it was no different with previous gear, gear was shared between jobs, so you could gear multiple classes quite quickly anyway, right now 2 months for a single job is just ridiculous, the problem right now is there using the same lockout for a different gear mechanic and it just doesn't work with this setup, at least not for me anyway, im sure some people fine with it, which is totally cool, i just personally aren't.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've leveled all pre-HW jobs to 50 (and am working on getting them to 60), and can confirm that I would prefer a 450/job cap over what we have now. Managing grind pressure is a skill every MMO player should have. No point in denying people the ability to cap as many jobs as they can for that reason at least.

Game balance may be another issue, but denying people the ability to get more esoterics just because they can't manage their pressure and need to have it managed for them is silly.

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Still doesn't account for the other problems with this... It's good if you can handle that pressure of not at least capping 3 jobs every week, which that alone would be a big pain. The bigger problem is the one I also pointed out though, that you'll have nothing to do later on instead. So you're just delaying the problem. Only, now you're adding another problem too... What will the new "CT" give you? same ilvl as the Eso that you already have everything of?

In a perfect world, that wouldn't be a problem, cause we would have other interesting content and gear coming out in 3.1, but that's not very realistic, and since SE are focusing both on casuals and hardcore, there will always be a patch that's for casuals, or for other players to gear up alt jobs, which they wouldn't care about if they already have them geared ofc.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Assuming they restrict you to buying gear only for the job you earned your tomes on, a paladin main (for example) can get

- left hand gear with the PLD cap
- right hand gear with DRK, WAR, DRG and MNK

Assuming they don't restrict you from buying gear for other jobs, a paladin main can get

- left and right hand gear with every job available, making it possible to gear up with esoterics in less than two weeks

Both of these options give a severe advantage in raiding for everyone who plays multiple jobs. I don't want this. Raiding should only be affected by how well you prepare, gear and play your main job, not by how many months you've spent leveling alts.

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i'm asking for a per job quota, no sharing, each job has its own cap, you can't spend one jobs tomes on another, there all separate, it also means to gain tomes on that job, you would HAVE to play that job, which i think is pretty good, adds some variety to what rolls people choose to play

I could get behind this idea, if it was maybe for one additional job. I'd love being able to gear at least one additional job, that way I can be more flexible for end game raid content. I'm not sure how alex is going to be in later floors. But if coils is any indication. There will be opportunities to change up the party a bit to progress. By the time my group got to second coil, I was already gearing my second job pretty well. So it was nice going tank on some turns, and going blm on others when we needed a single tank. It's nice to be able to change with end game content off and on. It breaks up the sometimes inevitable boredom of doing the same job all the time every static.

Another problem with this idea is that presumably if tomes are capped per job, they also have to be earned on that job. So if I'm only interested in gearing up my white mage, but my FC needs a tank for expert, I can no longer come along and get tomes that are relevant to me. And if there is still only a single expert roulette across all jobs, it's actually making things more difficult for me if I go on that run. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kuwaitum

If tip-top gears were uncapped or bought people would just subscribe for a month in every second major patch. Economically that is bad for a developing company.

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But, people already unsubscribe after the first month of an update because lack of variety in things to do >_> Atm, you can literally finish everything for the week on reset day and have absolutely nothing to do until the next week. People want to pay to actually play the game, rather than paying to play ~3 days a week because they can't gear another job.

Allowing each job to have a tome cap would most likely increase the subs. It'd give people a reason to actually get on for more than just 1 roulette a day.

A lot of people seem to forget this is a MMO and not a facebook/mobile game. Yes, mmos have some restrictions so people don't fully gear out on day 1, but right now we have so many restrictions it feels like a facebook/mobile game. If people want to grind all day on other jobs for tomes for those jobs, they should be able to. Theres no reason to punish people who actually want to play the game longer than 45 mins a day.

@ Obysuca

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/08/my_tho...s_up-77742.gif

The main thing that annoys me with the cap is that the numbers don't really work out that well.

I went two weeks to get the body piece, then last week I got the gloves. Now, I'm stuck waiting two weeks just to get the hat because this week I'll be short by a whopping 15 tomes. I'll be sitting at 480 and the head piece is 495.

Just seems like it will take forever to fully gear one job, let alone if you want to gear up a secondary, and by that time SE will have already brought out gear that will outgear the Eso gear.

I love how the only counter argument is either:

"I cant cap 450 eso tomes per class per week so noone should be allowed to do so either"

Or

"I wont be allowed into a hardcore endgame raid group if i dont have X classes in bis gear"

And those groups are a minority at best, if you wanna raid then doing so with friends/fc is the best way to go.

But ye this whole "if i cant have it/cant do it then noone else should" mentality is just pure selfish and childish.

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Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

I love how the only counter argument is either:

"I cant cap 450 eso tomes per class per week so noone should be allowed to do so either"

Or

"I wont be allowed into a hardcore endgame raid group if i dont have X classes in bis gear"

And those groups are a minority at best, if you wanna raid then doing so with friends/fc is the best way to go.

But ye this whole "if i cant have it/cant do it then noone else should" mentality is just pure selfish and childish.

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If you're cherry picking the arguments, then sure. They're the only counter arguments present.

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

i'm asking for a per job quota, no sharing, each job has its own cap, you can't spend one jobs tomes on another, there all separate, it also means to gain tomes on that job, you would HAVE to play that job, which i think is pretty good, adds some variety to what rolls people choose to play

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So are you also asking for job-specific right hand side gear? If not, my point still stands: raiding will be easier for people with alt jobs, and that's not the point of raiding. If yes, what are your thoughts on the insane inventory issues that will follow?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Another problem with this idea is that presumably if tomes are capped per job, they also have to be earned on that job. So if I'm only interested in gearing up my white mage, but my FC needs a tank for expert, I can no longer come along and get tomes that are relevant to me. And if there is still only a single expert roulette across all jobs, it's actually making things more difficult for me if I go on that run. No thanks.

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This is also a very good point. I often do roulette as a different job (healer) than I want to gear up (dps). It benefits me because I get instant queues but it also benefits the server because 3 people just had their duty pop faster. I don't want this option taken away.

There's a reason that "if I can't have it, nobody should" is the way things work, and it has nothing to do with what anyone in this thread specifically wants. It's because having content inaccessible to some people hurts your game's audience. There's a reason WoW peaked at 24 times the subscribers of the previous generation of MMO's, and it's because it was accessible. We deal with being haves and (for most of us) have-nots enough in real life, putting that in our escapist fantasy game doesn't help.

That said, there are valid counterarguments (including those made here) for why that should apply to a per-job tome cap. But the fundamental problem is that "it's optional, you don't have to do it" is NOT one of them. Having optional content people feel they are prevented from doing (whether due to limited time or whatever) has a negative impact on those people. It leads to less subscriptions. Options do not exist in a vacuum. They have a very real effect on people, including the people who don't take them.