I don't remember the skill "Bard Hop" being an attack either but apparently it is. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
The reason I think our DPS is low is because a few of our skills are locked behind WM right now, if and when WM is properly fixed then we'll have a bit more of a boost not only because of whatever small boost the song will probably give but the skills we can use too. I mean really, aside from machinist... what other jobs have you honestly saw on the forums saying "we're broken and these new skills suck" so far?
Maybe some has their downs right now but they are not bad enough to where they are flat out avoiding a skill that activates 2 other skills. I mean lets be honest, if Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow was open to us without WM right now then what Bard wouldn't use it? Probably none would avoid the skills as much as they do right now.
Other new jobs have new rotations that use or weave in newer skills with new effects. We don't, we're stuck on the same 2.55 rotation with one new additional skill as opposed to the 3~5 skills every other job now can use for dps. Of course there won't be any big change, the only way we're going to see if Bard's DPS goes up in my opinion is when WM is properly fixed and when we change our rotations to actually add it in however it's going to used when that happens.
Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way
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07-07-2015, 12:36 AMLillia
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07-07-2015, 12:38 AMEirwen
Since hardly anybody talked in chat when they were in need of MP, I learned to keep an eye out on their MP bars and quite often managed to sing a Mage's Ballad mere seconds before a healer would address the need for it. It would be very nice if Bards were able to see TP bars of the entire party with an action or trait called Scan or Libra (Though Libra was used to scan mobs for stats in earlier FF games).
I agree Bard needs some changes around Wanderer's Minuet. I'm not at 60 yet and right now it feels like I'm giving up my Damage Per Second with that song on because of the delay and lack of auto-attack. All it seems to be doing right now is lower out damage output and mobility, making fights last longer and harder to dodge without losing even more DPS which we already pay for with the things mentioned before.
Whenever Duty Finder places me, a bard, in a light party with another bard, I prepare myself for a longer lasting dungeon. It's fun to meet another Bard, though. -
07-07-2015, 12:40 AMIntellionI don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by meldon90
If you actually knew how to play Bards properly post 2.0, especially around 2.5, you'd see that there was nothing "overpowered" about the class. Past 2.0, Bard was a completely balanced and fair class for what it was.
We could move and rapid fire simultaneously, and we had some nice utility songs, but the cost we had to pay was our damage, and to an extent, our durability. But we were fine with that, since mobility was and is still the defining name of this job, not raw damage.
Were AoE-heavy fights easier as a Bard in ARR? Not really. I had both BRD and NIN at 50 by 2.55, and didn't really notice any difference in difficulty between raid bosses. Sure, NIN had to come close and some AoEs were tricky to dodge at melee range, but there were also PLENTY of AoEs that were far harder to dodge at range, meaning that some attacks actually felt easier to dodge as NIN than BRD. Plus, casters and melee effortlessly pumped out much more DPS than us, and we just had to live with it. But at least we were mobile and very flexible. So in the end, everything balanced out perfectly well.
Want a living proof that Bards were balanced in 2.55? If mobility was so "OMG OVERPOWERED nerf pls", then how come a 4-Bard DPS party was undesirable or even considered asinine in places like Second Coil or Final Coil? Why were there even moments when a second Bard would be dismissed in those raids in exchange for a melee or caster?
Simple answer, really: because mobility is NOT overpowered, at least not after the post-2.0 nerfs that Bards already got.
So your claim that "Bards don't deserve mobility" because it's too "OP?" It doesn't hold up, because you literally just took away the only thing that made the class stand out. Since it's been proven that ALL classes have some sort of utility, you can't count that as a Bard exclusive. So in ARR, these are what defined the different DPS classes:
Melee: High-powered, instant melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered, instant ranged attacks. Mobile.
As you can see, it's a perfectly balanced "triangle" that sorts itself out.
In 3.0, this is now how DPS classes look like:
Melee: High-powered, insta-cast melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged DPS had their only defining point taken away unjustly, and have now effectively become inferior casters should they be forced to adopt Minuet/Gauss Barrel. Might as well play a caster.
But wait! Many Bards chose to roll as Ranged DPS and not as Casters when they first started pre-Heavensward! Many of them also have BLM or SMN at level 0! Surely, it's a BRILLIANT idea to force them into inferior caster roles against their wishes!
Hooray for "good" game design!
Remember the saying: "If it's not broken, don't fix it."
You should, because in this case, SE thought it would be "wise" to "fix" a completely balanced class, and only ended up destroying it.
There's no "ifs" or "buts." The "Bard-" actually, no. Let's be honest here. This class is a Ranger, not a Bard. The Ranger is built from the ground up as a mobile run and gunner, not as a spell caster. It's been like that since 2.0, and it should stay like that even in 3.0 and beyond. That is a fact. If you actually know how to play Bards properly (aka have mastered it), this shouldn't even be put up for question.
Is it acceptable to add cast times to melee? No.
Is it acceptable to nerf casters to melee range? No.
So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out? -
07-07-2015, 12:42 AMMusashidonyour trump card is songs. not moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song. -
07-07-2015, 12:46 AMDante_V
I don't think the op is really a "realistic" way at all. Not necessarily a bad idea but if realistic is what you are going for then Bards wouldn't be moving at all while shooting. As someone who has shot many bow IRL I can tell you that you aren't going to be running around shooting arrows to any real effective or accurate degree. If they added realism to it then it would be more like WM damage 100% of the time with a 50% accuracy loss while moving. Arrows don't gain damage by standing still, the point of standing is for accuracy. You could argue that the increase in accuracy allows for a more critical arrow placement leading to more damage and I would agree however there would be a huge accuracy decrease while moving that would result in less damage overall.
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07-07-2015, 12:48 AMDante_V
Honestly for Bard I think they should have played more on ammunition for the damage increase. Different types of arrows with positive or negative aspect. (increased damage/shorter range) Stuff like that.
I do like the idea of charging the arrow for more damage. This would be good replication of an accurate critical hit thru aiming.. -
07-07-2015, 12:52 AMDante_VI agree with this. If you removed the utility of the songs and increased the damage no one would bring a bard as they could just bring another utility class or another melee that puts out even more damage. But I will admit that movement does provide SOME utility to the team such as being doing red/blue fire in t12. But this doesn't even come close to the song utility at all and honestly it can be done by any dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
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07-07-2015, 12:56 AMIntellionNo. I already went over this earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
Our trump card is our mobility. Songs are just a sidearm. At most, skilled Bards only use their songs around 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, they are relying purely on their mobility and their fast attacks to perform well as a DPS class.
Songs are indeed nice, but what non-Bards don't realize is that they are also very situational in nature.
Mobility is our absolute trump card, and our one defining point as a class. -
07-07-2015, 12:58 AMMusashidonso wrong it's not funny. bards are taken because without them every other job would run out of tp/mp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
without bard the overall dps would drop abysmally.
all you went over is you have no idea how to play your own job. -
07-07-2015, 12:59 AMYellow
Bards in Final Fantasy have been a job that have low damage output due to the utility they can provide with their songs. I think as a DPS class in 14, the class needs to revolve around managing songs to improve your party while having enough output of DPS to be somewhat relevant in the party. The balance needs to be how much utility they provide in order to make up for their lack of damage.
I think that while Bard should be more on the utility side, Machinist should be more towards the DPS side with less party utility (perhaps more solo utility, situational improvements, etc).
Remember that this is a Final Fantasy game.. if you want a ranged DPS then perhaps you want a Hunter job, rather than Bard... -
07-07-2015, 01:03 AMStouterTaruAnd standing still for 5-20 seconds every minute to burst damage breaks the job absolutely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
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07-07-2015, 01:06 AMckc22
The problem being that wanderers isn't a dogs boost. I don't get what's so hard about this. You give up movement and you get..... Pretty much nothing. You're certainly not getting boosted to Dps levels of other jobs so.... What's the point?
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07-07-2015, 01:07 AMXyth
I rarely ever need to use Ballad or Paeon Pre-3.0. If players played and manage their mana and TP usage, on top of their Shroud/Aetherflow/Invig, the songs are never needed to be played. The ONLY time I used ballad is when a fight extends longer than it should (which happens occasionally in a pug group with low DPS), or when a healer dies and ressed.
In most fights, that excludes BRDs, let's say 2 Melee or caster + Melee, can be completed without any issue. The BRD's utility is a bonus when it comes to our class, and I agree that it's a trump card. It's not necessary to use, but it's there when needed.
Foe should be used when there's 2 or more casters in the group. The only time I play Foe during 4-man content is when we have a caster and its's for trash aoe pulls. I don't play them for a boss fight, as my dmg decrease isn't worth it. -
07-07-2015, 01:07 AMLilliaReally? you're going to compare 2.55 to right now? When every job but bard and machinist now has new operational toys that work fine? How about letting SE fix the skills first? Can it not wait that badly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
I mean really, when something absolutely needed tweaking they always did tweak it from my understanding and now we have a reply on it then stuff flies off the handle whinershire style?
And it wasn't 'fixed' it was changed along with other jobs for an expansion that increased level cap and added skills which triggered that change. Yes the skills don't work right now but that's why actual fixing is being done.
There's not a single game that never needed to fix a class/job or some aspect of the game at least once thus far in history, Heck there's some companies who don't fix them or reply period. We got both so lets wait and see how the changes are and if it's not fixed enough then we'll give more feedback.
And it's actually like this; Ranged: Low-powered ranged skills with cast time and immobility when inside Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel which isn't even being used currently. -
07-07-2015, 01:09 AMIntellionNo. All you've shown is that you have no clue how to actually play Bards and don't know what the hell you are talking about, yet you are snarkily commenting on a Bard feedback thread like this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
Even in hardcore raids like coils, Bards are only asked to turn on their TP/MP songs when absolutely needed. After enough TP or MP is recovered, we are immediately asked to shut them off.
Why? Because in the end, we still consume a DPS slot, and hence are expected to pump out DPS. If you knew how to play Bards you'd also know that songs severely damage our DPS. But I guess you wouldn't. A Lv 24 Archer wouldn't have access to songs yet, after all.
With our low damage, how do we pump out the required DPS? By utilizing our trump card... mobility and rapid oGCD/proc weaving! Gasp! Who knew?!
As I keep saying, songs are undoubtedly useful, but it's just our sidearm.
It sure as hell weren't songs that helped me meet the tight DPS checks required on EX primals and Final Coil bosses when I cleared them as a Bard.
Once again, another PSA to non-Bards:
Please refrain from snarky comments unless you actually know enough about how to properly play the job well. -
07-07-2015, 01:09 AMLewtskieClearly they understand how a Bard works more than we do. Obviously we shouldn't be doing damage at all, we just need to be song bots that just stack songs on songs. That's how you balance it out. We do nothing but play songs and make everyone else do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
Because when has mobility ever been useful? Not like we couldn't be the DPS who could so easily work levers or buttons or needing to do a thing from one end of the map to the other, right?
Like the dungeons we have now. It's not like my mobility helps when I can be the one to run up to a Tank to pop an add during the Minotaur fight while still popping my rotation. Or it's like I can seamlessly run up to a totem in the purple field while going pew pew where everyone else needs to turn about face and halt function entirely to go pick one up.
Nope, songs is all we good for, aye chief? Wants me play a song fer you, mi'lord? I can play one of thems fancy ones makes you do things. It's all I good fer anyhows. -
07-07-2015, 01:11 AMMusashidonwhat you don't get is your dps doesn't matter your boost to the other dps do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
like i said learn you job.
it doesn't matter if i am a bard or not why? because your taken as a mp/tp potion nothing else.
mobility has nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
you could be up close melee or long cast bards.
you are not brought for mobility at all.
let's see you beat a raid without a bard when your tank/melee dps are out of tp and your healers are out of mp, and you are doing zero damage and dying because noone is getting heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
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07-07-2015, 01:12 AMVolgera
SE, just remove Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaw from WM and we are set!!! :P
If someone want extra 20% damage just turn WM on!! -
07-07-2015, 01:14 AMLewtskieThe boost we do to other dps? You mean the one song we have that affects only a third of the entire DPS cast? One that only lasts so long because of a finite pool of resource used for the song?Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
This guy is for real, lmao.
And way to entirely miss what I said. But of course, you chose to ignore that, since it was an actual point that you couldn't contest.
This is just taking the piss.
NAH MAN, you said it yourself that only the boost we do to other DPS do is what matters. Don't backpedal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
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07-07-2015, 01:18 AMIntellionNo. Just, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
You have proven that you have no idea what you're saying.
We are only taken as "MP/TP pots?"
Wrong.
We are taken as a DPS class to fill in a DPS slot to pump out DPS like the other three DPS slots. Songs are just there as a safety measure. Sometimes, parties even rely on our mobility to handle mechanics while maintaining DPS.
I don't need to "learn" my job, because I have mastered it already.
Perhaps you should learn not to comment stupid things on subjects you know nothing about.
And why not level Bard to 60, or something? Then take it to raids. Might teach you a thing or two.
I just find it asinine that non-Bards who have never played or mained the class are going into Bard feedback threads, acting all high-and-mighty, and insulting actual Bards when they don't even have a single clue about the job they're criticizing. -
07-07-2015, 01:20 AMMusashidonobviously not when you *don't need songs and you are dps* lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
how am i back pedaling? i said you need bards for tp/mp songs without them you lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
like i said beat a raid without those songs. -
07-07-2015, 01:21 AMLilliaSongs are our main attraction, you're literally talking about running up to a tank during that fight too? I got news for you Lewt, you. are. ranged. unless it's for repelling shot then why would you even be near a monsters butt to begin with!? Gosh... The only exceptions should be fights like Chimera with Dragons Voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
Anyways while songs are our main attraction, yes mobility is a great thing and was helpful at times like T7, T8, T12 but summoners and other jobs have reportedly done the same thing if it was needed before with more damage when they are dps'ing so that's completely invalid. -
07-07-2015, 01:25 AMLewtskieYou understand I was referring to the tank that houses the adds, right? I guess I should have said big fuck-all tube?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
And to be honest, some fights you're gonna get your ass beat if all you ever do is hang as far away as you can. Wanderer's Palace HM had that ungodly cone so it helped to keep close, as just one example.
So by comparison job that can do MOST of their dps and then move is better than a job that can do ALL their dps and still move? Why make the SMN gimp themselves by having to do that?
Given time I'm sure I can come with a nice list of where sure mobility comes in advantage. -
07-07-2015, 01:26 AMIntellionAnd now you're resorting to putting words in my mouth because you know that my statements are true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
"Don't need songs."
What a joke. Never once have I said such a thing.
But yes, Bards are a DPS class. Tell me, look at their class icon and see what color it is. It sure as heck ain't green or blue.
When Bards queue up for DF, which slot do they get placed at?
"Bards are not DPS."
What a stupid and asinine claim. Please study more about the subject you are commenting on before actually saying something snarky.
I know I wouldn't comment on a Paladin feedback thread because I don't main the class, and hence I'm aware that I know nothing about it and my opinions are null and void.
Yet here you are, commenting on the Bard feedback thread despite not knowing a single thing about how to play Bards properly. -
07-07-2015, 01:28 AMMusashidonoh bards are dps? then we can just take a better one in your place? right? cause those songs aren't important your mobility is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
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07-07-2015, 01:30 AMLilliaThat anyone can open? Yeah, if you're opening it then fine but then you move away anyways opening a tank doesn't make mobility suddenly golden. Like I said anyone can open it, especially a healer who has the fight under control for that matter and you'll see that I edit my post because there are SOME exceptions to being close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
Actually SMNs kite and move as well as us if it's absolutely needed to be so idk what shes on, she's on something good though and needs to share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
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07-07-2015, 01:33 AMIntellionSongs are important. They are our valuable utility tool, after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
But our mobility is more important. You'd only fail to see this if you look at the situation from a non-Bard perspective.
Our mobility is literally the only thing that allows us to maintain sufficient DPS despite our naturally low damage and fulfill our roles as a DPS class.
What Minuet, as of now, is doing is taking away that mobility while giving us nothing in return, meaning that we can no longer maintain acceptable DPS in movement-heavy fights should SE force us into being in WM all the time. Try doing sufficient DPS with Minuet on Titan EX or even just on the final boss of Neverreap. I can assure you, it's a nightmare.
I have discussed this over and over, and I don't feel like repeating it all over again. Feel free to scroll back to earlier pages.
Plus, what color are a Bard's class icon?
Red.
What does red stand for?
DPS.
Please tell me that you know that. There's no "ifs", "buts" or any sort of arguing against that. Bard is a DPS. That's a FACT, not an OPINION. -
07-07-2015, 01:33 AMNandalowell
The circles you guys are running is making me dizzy.
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07-07-2015, 01:34 AMLewtskieGood for you, you edited your post because you were actually incorrect about it. And again, if we can do ALL those things, and still do DPS, then why is that an issue? If the healer has downtime because of low heals, then why not throw out some deeps too? You'll have a Bard on the move making deeps, and a healer doing deeps. Got all the deeps. That's better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
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07-07-2015, 01:34 AMMusashidonseriously your only argument revolves around *it says i am a dps*Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
your most valuable feature is your songs. if damage was the important part they would take someone who did more but it doesn't matter.
why? because without songs the whole raid fails. -
07-07-2015, 01:38 AMEirwenYeah... It's clear now! People who play Bard think of their jobs one way, people who hardly/never play Bard think of it the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandalowell
Bards are DPS. Bards are TP/MP providers. Bards are magic defense lowerers. And for that we have always paid the price with our damage output which was nerfed early on in ARR.
Let's take each other's input on the DPS vs Song provider rants and see how we can use that to grow. Not growl. -
07-07-2015, 01:44 AMIntellionYou're still failing to see the whole picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
To a NON-BARD, songs are the most important asset.
To a BARD, mobility is undeniably more important, since proper usage of songs is actually very situational. Mobility is what separates us from casters, and mobility is what allows us to maintain DPS while dodging or handling mechanics.
What Bards are complaining about is that they don't want Minuet to take away their mobility, because that's the only thing they have over the more powerful caster and melee classes. Most of all, Bards love a mobile ranged gameplay, and that's why they rolled the class in the first place instead of casters. That is what's causing an outrage right now.
Yet Non-Bards are flooding this thread, snarkily commenting that Bards "deserve" to have their mobility taken away because they're just "damn jukeboxes." They also go so far as insulting actual Bards, telling them to "learn your job" if they disagree, despite the fact that these NON-BARDS have no damn clue about how to properly play the job they are insulting.
Talk about self-centered and ignorant. -
07-07-2015, 01:46 AMMusashidoni see the whole picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
*i play bard so i can run and shoot*
guess what? it doesn't matter. people don't care that you can run and shoot they care for your songs.
your mobility has no meaning to everyone else why because your mobility is only important to you.
you have now changed your whole point from mobility is the most important to i am sad i am losing the least important part of my job. -
07-07-2015, 01:47 AMLilliaYep I did correct myself before even reading your post because I wasn't thinking of every single little encounter I've experienced, otherwise you have nothing special about being able to reach a tube sweetie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
So what you're saying is if a DPS DoT class who over time does damage can kite as well as a physical DPS
1)Who can move and attack.
2)doesn't completely do over time damage to do the majority of their DPS
3)doesn't rely on a pet that can die to do half their DPS
4)has songs to increase DPS for others
5)restore MP/TP along with now also block out negative effects the next turn that can potentially save healers time from esuna'ing which is being fixed for our convenience to be more useful and work properly?
then we should definitely be able to do more DPS outside of Wanderer's to reach theirs?
First off; Of course smn or any other job is sacrificing to move just to perform their mechanics but it doesn't make you special because you can move when a job with a higher dps can take your place while that SMN gives up only some of theirs so yeah, I'd say your songs are a pretty big deal and no I don't think we should do more out of WM with all of that. -
07-07-2015, 01:49 AMLewtskiehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Oqq0npY1MQuote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
I JUST typed this into google and found it; it was THAT easy.
The people who only say we are worth our songs have far too much dependance on them. Fights can be done without them, fights can be done without us. Might he harder, might be easier, but the fact remains those songs don't set anything in stone. AS a DPS we still have the objective of helping to maintain a party-wide average of damage to actually push and complete a fight. If enrage timers didn't exist DPS wouldn't be needed at all. Just tanks and healers could do everything. But they can't, they need DPS. And as DPS they need our damage more than anything else.
That we provide insurance and mechanics that help smooth out longer fights is good, but we still need to manage our natural role.
Be as patronizing all you want, honeymuffins, but you haven't really countered my claims with anything but "Oh, well someone else can do it. Not as well as you, but they can." and I'm waiting for reasoning why it's better for them to do it than us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
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07-07-2015, 01:50 AMIntellionYou don't see the whole picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
Mobility means a lot for the team, not just songs. It's the only way we can maintain acceptable DPS with our low damage.
Without maintaining sufficient DPS as a DPS class, we will only cause the party to fail DPS checks.
Low damage is the price we have to pay for having mobility and songs, so without mobility, there is no meaning to Bards.
If you truly see the whole picture and/or knew how to play Bards, you'd realize this easily.
EDIT:
As someone above me has said, if a Bard doesn't use songs, a fight can still be won.
If a Bard fails to maintain acceptable DPS, then the entire party can be placed in peril from DPS checks.
In the end, Bards HAVE to prioritize DPS over songs since they still consume a DPS slot. And right now, we need our mobility to accomplish that. -
07-07-2015, 01:54 AMTemjiu
Hey Folks...Musha is a troll, and it has effectively derailed the conversation for a few pages now. Ignore the Troll.
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07-07-2015, 01:54 AMYellow
Maybe we could give Archers the job they appear to be looking for? An actual ranged TP-using DPS job? Maybe make Bard a separate job you can unlock.. and give it a Harp as a weapon? :P
Seriouslyyy SE, I had a feeling this was going to happen waaaay back when the jobs were announced. Archer getting Bard instead of Hunter.. hmm. -
07-07-2015, 01:55 AMMusashidonsongs. bam meaning to bards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
mobility is something you specifically want.
you can still deal damage without moving. blm's do it just fine. you can too.
stop pretending you have to run around 90% of the fight. if you had to blms would be kicked from raids.
congrats going to t13 in full bis lets you do the fight easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
awww thanks for the recognition <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Temjiu
but seriously i am a troll because bards lose something that is only important to bards that only play the job for mobility? -
07-07-2015, 01:56 AMLewtskieIt really has created a god awful conflicted mess, hasn't it? Should just make us Rangers then slap together something with a rapier or something snazzy and give them a harp, lol. Hell I can roll up my old Bard from a pathfinder years ago and think of something. Sounds fun, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow
Doesn't deny they did it. Maybe you just need to look to yourself then if all they needed to do was go full BiS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon