Please fix marauder

They could get by with a web series.

Or a Machinima!

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They WILL sit in town the second this game gets hard unless something is done. People will start making fun of marauders and pugs just like blms, plds, nins, and rdms made fun of dragoons and thieves when they tried to defend themselves in XI.

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This depends on whether encounter design is lop-sided in favor of certain classes while making others much less useful. DRG had the problem of image since it was seen as gimp but really wasn't since the TP return nerf. THF was tied to a gimmick that was obviously useless after the 60's.

I'd rather them put the damage dealers close to each other so that this discrepancy that causes groups to take one but not the other is reduced as much as it can be. Even then, we'd still have the slashing/blunt/piercing damage thing to deal with. In the case of LNC and MRD, they should be DD with a slight edge in their respective bonuses (MRD in area damage, and LNC in minor buffs). 1H or Dual Wield GLD (or maybe Fencer if they get around to introducing that and are bent on keeping GLD tank-focused) could probably join that camp too. Edit: Looking over MRD again, I thought of something. The class could work well as a tank if a couple of the things available to it are distinct from the stuff that makes MRD a damage dealer. Thus, on a concept level a DD MRD would be something like "a fearless warrior that does not yield until its targets are all dead" while a tank MRD would be "a stalwart warrior that brandishes his weapon to draw the attention of his enemies while protecting his allies". Workable concept, no?

Something interesting to note in all this is that the harbinger of the new battle system happens to be the same guy that did the battle system in FFXI. If he had anything to do with party dynamics in relation to encounters and overall encounter mechanics for bosses, my forecast for the future is not very good right now.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you guys sure have a lot of faith that the battle system rework will solve everything, when they never really mentioned that they thought marauder or archer needed or any job really, needed to be rexamined as far as their class itself.

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Safe to assume that since they're overhauling how jobs and classes play they will "re-examine" all of them...if you can't deduce that yourself then I dunno what to say to you.

Marauder is desecrating the legacy of my all time favorite weapon, The Great Axe. In battle, if you saw someone holding a great axe, that is the strongest, most intimidating, biggest, and most fearless warrior that you would have to deal with. The great axe is usually held by some big viking or an executioner about to chop your head off. Warrior with great axe in ffxi was slow but each hit was almost as strong as other people's weaponskills. It is really scary to hear that "thud" and you see a chunk of hp come out, that I took hate from regular hits alone, but I also have double attack and meditate, enough to make paladins cry.

Is marauder comparable to a dark knight or warrior? Hardly. It doesn't even fit it's own description.

Yup MAR is a total joke. How about that squat animation in 90% of the skills huh? Compelling stuff.

Btw. I think this class looks the worst after the scaled up effects. The wind used to look like it's coming out of my axe swings now when I do a skill attack it just looks like it's getting randomly windy around me for some odd reason as I do yet another basic slash. o_O() What the hell?

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Originally Posted by Mack

Safe to assume that since they're overhauling how jobs and classes play they will "re-examine" all of them...if you can't deduce that yourself then I dunno what to say to you.

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it is actually not safe to assume any such thing.

Most of the responses to job balance have been along the lines of, we are commited to balancing and will study things asd they arise, not oh we have already worked this into our new battle system.
You would be a fool to assume that they have decided something is wrong with marauder and needs to be fixed, when they have never mentioned it. I am willing to bet, their main focus with this battle update will be adapting the current classes to the new systems, not changing the balance of classes.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Edit: Looking over MRD again, I thought of something. The class could work well as a tank if a couple of the things available to it are distinct from the stuff that makes MRD a damage dealer. Thus, on a concept level a DD MRD would be something like "a fearless warrior that does not yield until its targets are all dead" while a tank MRD would be "a stalwart warrior that brandishes his weapon to draw the attention of his enemies while protecting his allies". Workable concept, no?

Something interesting to note in all this is that the harbinger of the new battle system happens to be the same guy that did the battle system in FFXI. If he had anything to do with party dynamics in relation to encounters and overall encounter mechanics for bosses, my forecast for the future is not very good right now.

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I hope that the battle designer feels badly for what happened to meleers for the first three years of the game, how it set them up to be second class citizens to mages, tanks, and rangers. I hope even more that he knows precisely what he did improperly. Archer was designed with the same exact problems that led to ranger running FFXI for years. Mages, not so much luckily.

The concept of marauder being a multi-mob tank honestly won't ever work. A marauder can't tank more mobs than a gladiator, so the mobs would have to be numerous and weak for marauder's AoE meleeing to ever make it come out on top. And even if it is, you're better off getting the BEST tank--gladiator--occupy them wile the BEST Crowd controllers-thaumaturge and conjurer--nuke them all down. Marauder, the 2nd best tank and 3rd, arguably 4th best AoE'er is just inefficient and insufficient for that job. If the enemies ARE numerous and weak, a pack of archers could make such quick work of them that before steadfast even activates, they're not even a large group any more. Half of them are dead.

Thus, the marauder becomes useless at any group of mobs it COULD tank because an archer group could just end them immediately.

The inescapabilities of being a meleer go for this game as they went in FFXI. You are either a good DD or you're not. Warriors don't get points for being off tanks. Samurais don't get points for being skillchain specialists. Thieves don't get points for hate control. Dark knights don't get points for spike damage. Monks don't get points for parry and HP. You are either good at DD, or you're a gimp job, because THAT is your only viable role, and the only thing about you that matters to anyone.

Marauder needs overhaulled at its core. Archer can not outdamage it, otherwise there is ZERO point in marauder. You'll get a dozen marauders hop in this thread and scream about how great they are at tanking and crowd control, and no they're not. They will never be, otherwise it's GLADIATOR that will need massive enhancements. Marauders can not win the fight they are destined to lose here. They are NOT tanks. They are NOT crowd controllers. They are NOT AoE'ers. They are bad at all of those things, because other jobs already own that position.

There is no point in letting a marauder tank if you have a gladiator, because all marauders really do when they tank is keep a mage, the true AoE damagers, from nuking as often as it would because marauder isn't as good a tank and demands more cure attention.

It pains me to correct marauders that over-play the job on the board here, but being a fanboy of the job isn't going to save it. Didn't save DRG. Didn't save THF. Won't save this mess. When they claim that they shined at the old Braggodocios and dodore camps: Honestly no they didn't, as their healer talking here. Marauder would do when there was no gladiator around. That's about it. I could keep one alive. I could still kill the brags faster with a glad tanking them than a mrd.

Let's put it this way...at the oldschool HPBB camp where marauder "shined" as a thaumaturge healed him...would actually go better if the thaumaturge tanked and the marauder healed HIM.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

The concept of marauder being a multi-mob tank honestly won't ever work. A marauder can't tank more mobs than a gladiator, so the mobs would have to be numerous and weak for marauder's AoE meleeing to ever make it come out on top.

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I never said anything about keeping marauder as a second-rate tank. I'm more for making it a tank on par with GLD, just finding mechanics and a style of play that defines it and separates it from GLD. Because if we continue with that "one best tank, one best nuker, etc" mentality, we're going to run into the exact same problem we had in XI when it came to group composition for content that matters. What I'm saying is that DD MRD and tank MRD need to be better defined to give players that want either role what is needed to participate and be seen as viable. GLD's tank thing could involve the shield, whereas a tank MRD could rely more on techniques that require a two-handed weapon to get the job done. This is all at a base level, by the way; I'm sure the devs could come up with something more wholesome and better.

By the same token, DD GLD should become a possibility, especially if they go with adding a job system on top of the weapon class system we currently have.

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If the enemies ARE numerous and weak, a pack of archers could make such quick work of them that before steadfast even activates, they're not even a large group any more. Half of them are dead.

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I wouldn't be so sure. Bringing in my experiences outside of FF, trash packs of mobs in WoW raids would not just blown up by the select few classes/specs that were good at AoE damage. Likewise, raids were not sitting everyone else who is only good for single-target damage. What makes it work in one game and not in the other? (Hell, if anything people complained about AoE damage not mattering unless the boss encounter involves adds that need to be killed)

Greetings!

Just moving this thread over to the Marauder forum.

Apologies for any inconvenience!

-=Game Master Emdub=-

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

Lancer is the only meleer who has a shot at being great. It can be the new corsair. The damaging party enhancer that CANNOT be made up for by simply kicking them and adding an archer.

Hate controller was a viable role in FFXI, but it was POORLY designed. If they want to make pugilist a hate controller, that'd be worth a 2nd try, but even that is dangerous. Make hate controlling annoying to people, and they will HATE the job that does it and invent ways to not need it on purpose. That's what happened to thief.

Each job MUST be more useful to a party than kicking them and adding an archer. In reality. Not "I can crowd control" no, you don't crowd control. Not "I can tank" no, you don't tank.

People do not understand the concept that any advantage your job MAY have is not an advantage if it is NOT DOING IT, so if you are in any way paying for that advantage that you aren't doing by being less good at what you are doing at the moment...you're a gimp. Marauder is that gimp. It pays for being able to tank even when it's not tanking, by having lower DD output than it should, which it is currently and usually always is doing.

A marauder can claim it can tank all it wants. Gladiators will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can AoE, but mages will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can DD, but archers will do that job, so no one cares.

Same reason that a job's weakness is not a weakness if it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Archers aren't defensively weak. Parties are set up so that they don't take any damage. Dead enemies stop attacking.

Marauder can't win as this pseudotank pseudo DD. It's bad at both so....just whatever the marauder THINKS he's doing just get the person better than he is at whatever that is. If damage, archer. If tank, Gladiator. If AOE, mage.

As expected when you concentrate peolple who think theyr'e "experts," on the internet, the marauder's board has more cluelessness about the job than the general discussion board does. It's unfortunate that this topic was moved.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

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False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

Lancer is the only meleer who has a shot at being great. It can be the new corsair. The damaging party enhancer that CANNOT be made up for by simply kicking them and adding an archer.

Hate controller was a viable role in FFXI, but it was POORLY designed. If they want to make pugilist a hate controller, that'd be worth a 2nd try, but even that is dangerous. Make hate controlling annoying to people, and they will HATE the job that does it and invent ways to not need it on purpose. That's what happened to thief.

Each job MUST be more useful to a party than kicking them and adding an archer. In reality. Not "I can crowd control" no, you don't crowd control. Not "I can tank" no, you don't tank.

People do not understand the concept that any advantage your job MAY have is not an advantage if it is NOT DOING IT, so if you are in any way paying for that advantage that you aren't doing by being less good at what you are doing at the moment...you're a gimp. Marauder is that gimp. It pays for being able to tank even when it's not tanking, by having lower DD output than it should, which it is currently and usually always is doing.

A marauder can claim it can tank all it wants. Gladiators will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can AoE, but mages will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can DD, but archers will do that job, so no one cares.

Same reason that a job's weakness is not a weakness if it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Archers aren't defensively weak. Parties are set up so that they don't take any damage. Dead enemies stop attacking.

Marauder can't win as this pseudotank pseudo DD. It's bad at both so....just whatever the marauder THINKS he's doing just get the person better than he is at whatever that is. If damage, archer. If tank, Gladiator. If AOE, mage.

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MMOs havent been around long enough to come up with only one solutions. Guild wars 2 for example claim they have succesfully killed the trinity. i dont think its always going to come down to pure tanks and DDs, heck it didnt even come down to that in ffxi. people started realizing that monk could tank, warriors were pretty good. pld was the best at straight damage reduction, but that wasnt always the easiest answer.
I seen rdm tanks, monk tanks, theives, no one tanking.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

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Do you want a sandbox game or do you want specialized roles? The game's major criticism is the sanboxy feel to the jobs, their generic utilities, and that there's really no specific point in plaing any of them. And that is being fixed to bring it more in line with being a Final Fantasy.

This isn't an "everyone can tank in their own special way if they wish" kind of series.

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Originally Posted by Physic

MMOs havent been around long enough to come up with only one solutions. Guild wars 2 for example claim they have succesfully killed the trinity. i dont think its always going to come down to pure tanks and DDs, heck it didnt even come down to that in ffxi. people started realizing that monk could tank, warriors were pretty good. pld was the best at straight damage reduction, but that wasnt always the easiest answer.
I seen rdm tanks, monk tanks, theives, no one tanking.

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They didn't realize it. The developers slackened their design to accomodate the lack of tanks around, and that tanks were FFXI's prima donnas. They slackened it to the point where gladiator became nothing but the token endgame tool, and that was fine because endgame had more than enough of them by then.

It wasn't due to some new amazing discovery of the untapped potential of warrior. The devs specifically enabled alternative tanking for that game because it just didn't matter any more.

You can't do that to this game within a year of its inception--just resort to who the hell cares any more mode.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Do you want a sandbox game or do you want specialized roles? The game's major criticism is the sanboxy feel to the jobs, their generic utilities, and that there's really no specific point in plaing any of them. And that is being fixed to bring it more in line with being a Final Fantasy.

This isn't an "everyone can tank in their own special way if they wish" kind of series.

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And that's why class design went down the toilet for the most part in XI. So you're therefore saying it's alright for that mess to repeat itself.

PS: "specs" and diverse roles per class/job are not sandboxy. Quite far from it, actually.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

They didn't realize it. The developers slackened their design to accomodate the lack of tanks around, and that tanks were FFXI's prima donnas. They slackened it to the point where gladiator became nothing but the token endgame tool, and that was fine because endgame had more than enough of them by then.

It wasn't due to some new amazing discovery of the untapped potential of warrior. The devs specifically enabled alternative tanking for that game because it just didn't matter any more.

You can't do that to this game within a year of its inception--just resort to who the hell cares any more mode.

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im talking before they went past 75, and it wasnt so much who the hell cares, as much as people stopped following one formula, and started learning how to work the system their selves, monk always had high evasion, and counter always came before shadow use, as well as monk having the most haste gear these tools were always there, people were just too scared to try to tank, or try to tank without using voke. Rdm always had potential with massive amounts of mp, excellent defensive skills etc. Its just when people get experienced in a game they start really understanding the jobs instead of following blueprints telling them exactly how to play, and who is supposed to do what. Also at the end of the day, winning is winning, you can use whatever technique you want, as long as you can win

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Originally Posted by Duelle

False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

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Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed..... how do i know this?lol Because i tried the free 7 day trail and it was all i could do not to laugh so hard at the sorry excuse of a game. I played for 5mins then uninstalled it; thank god.

And a very good PLD in ff11 still is the best tank in alot of situations and w/ the new content outside of abyssea mnk and war will not be able to tank as easily. I have a Ochain/aegis/burtgang pld in ls and he cant be touched if he had higher tier cures he'd be unstoppable. groups in ff11 that have optimized tanks for NMs/HNMs will outperform groups w/ mnks and warriors tanking because when a mnk or warrior tanks in most cases it greatly affects there dps/burst dmg. When u got a DD being able to freely DD they can contribute alot more than tanking/DDing.

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Originally Posted by Hikozaemon

Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed..... how do i know this?lol Because i tried the free 7 day trail and it was all i could do not to laugh so hard at the sorry excuse of a game. I played for 5mins then uninstalled it; thank god.

And a very good PLD in ff11 still is the best tank in alot of situations and w/ the new content outside of abyssea mnk and war will not be able to tank as easily. I have a Ochain/aegis/burtgang pld in ls and he cant be touched if he had higher tier cures he'd be unstoppable. groups in ff11 that have optimized tanks for NMs/HNMs will outperform groups w/ mnks and warriors tanking because when a mnk or warrior tanks in most cases it greatly affects there dps/burst dmg. When u got a DD being able to freely DD they can contribute alot more than tanking/DDing.

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i stopped before abysea, i low manned many things, paladin is better in straight defense by far, and in hate, but i kill faster and avoid taking damage. There are some things i have no chance on as monk, fast hitting accurate mobs with high evasion would eat me up, aoe using monsters magic aoe users, but there are a lot of monster that dont fit that bill.

But really at the end of the day, it was our combination of people and over all strategies that allowed us to do things others couldnt, im sure paladin could have done many of these things, but long as we won, who cares. I main tanked in low man dynamis for the win, just because i knew how, and what to pull better than the official tanks, and the things that could eat me up, the mages had plans to deal with, Im just saying whatever works, is good.

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Originally Posted by Hikozaemon

Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed

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And what does artistic direction have to with the topic at hand?

Pere is saying MRD needs some sort of niche because MRD won't be acceptable as a tank or damage dealer in the content that matters. I'm saying that MRD should be a weapon class with two possible paths: tank, or DPS, depending on how the player wants to set themselves up. I only brought up Rift, WoW et al because they happen to have just that: classes with a base concept that can go in different directions due to specializations. WoW alone has four tank classes - Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight. That's a MUCH bigger pool of tanks to choose from than, say, FFXIV with only Gladiator, or FFXI with just PLD (nevermind the mess Ninja created).

Or do you want MRD to be tied to some gimmick that people might find useful for a bit until shell leaders figure out ways around needing a MRD in the raid?

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet but lots of people are overlooking a key factor to Marauder play, AoE.

If Mrd did the same single target dps as Archer or Lancer then the class would be called Archer or Lancer. Marauders are the masters of AoE threat generation and do great AoE damage. Before NMs were *cough* nerfed into the ground, Marauders could easily generate 1k+ tp with a single broad swing and spam his AoE weapon skills without worry.

Mosshorn fights as Marauder were incredibly fun since those adds have a decent amount of health. Marauder's TP generation on those fights were unmatched even against a pierce + invigorate II lancer.

Point is Marauders do have a role in a party, the real problem is there is no content at the moment that can bring out a Marauder's full potential.

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Originally Posted by Honz

Point is Marauders do have a role in a party, the real problem is there is no content at the moment that can bring out a Marauder's full potential.

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That's very dangerous ground to tread. Firstly because you then become notably less useful in a good number of situations. I've seen the "AoE aggro as the class' niche" thing tried, and it was alright but it relegated the involved class as second fiddle to the "real" tank class. Which means said class was marginally useful but still quite LOL in to those who figured out ways around needing that class.

MRD needs a buff, plain and simple. I think the class is just horribly designed especially with the steadfast mechanic even though it sounds cool on paper but there needs to be good tweaks done.

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Originally Posted by Honz

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet but lots of people are overlooking a key factor to Marauder play, AoE.

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Marauder is not good at AoE. As a conjurer, the thought is laughable. They're only good on paper. Just because they have AoE abilities doesn't mean any of them are actually GOOD. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you're not a gimp job at it.

A. The cone is impotent in terms of its shape and size, requiring constant position changes which makes...
B. The steadfast required for half of them unreliable and hamstringing. Even if you CAN get the right position...
C. AoE meleeing is gimp because...
D. Because Mages and Archers already have superior group attacks, so you're better off having the archers who can deplete TP with their mark attacks, or pugilists or lancers who can increase their TP with their regular attacks. Anything but full swinging marauders, really.
E. The mages have already slept half the crowd for REAL crowd control and you just screwed that up, thanks.
F. AoE meleeing is futile. A marauder will never be able to AoE DPS enough mobs to justify their use, because for there to be enough mobs alive and swinging to justify an AoE-meleeing marauder's utility, there'd have to be more than any tank can handle. Otherwise, the group's better off controlling the crowd and picking them off.

And if not, then just get a real AoE job to do it for you.

I'm sorry. Marauders may like to think they're good AoE jobs but they aren't. Archers are beter AoE'ers. Mages certainly are. THOSE are AoE'ers. THOSE are crowd controllers.

Marauder is a single target DD or it's nothing. This...whatever it is trying to be...isn't going to work.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Do not nerf classes... really, nerfing isnt a solution to everything.

Buff the other classes, BUFF THE GODAMN NMs and add some challenging mechanic so solo isnt possible.

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Agreed. Nothing should be nerfed, everything deserves at least to be buffed.

When it's easier to nerf the two problem jobs than change the entire world and system around them, you nerf em. No-brainer, if the problem is a broken part, you replace the part. You don't rebuild the entire system so that the parts somehow are no longer broken in new context.

Keeping the imbalance and enhancing everything around it spoils the player base. It encourages imbalance-getting, when honestly the behavior should be subtly punished. Not inviting marauders, lancers, and pugs should never be encouraged by an "EVERYBODY WINS!" reaction.

You need your hand slapped if you take to not inviting marauders. There's already no point in taking a marauder to the Ifrit fight. Unless there's just frank shameless marauder product placement in it, marauder's already useless.

So token at best. Already useless. That's where this job stands. Better hope the job overlays on marauder destroy ranger and archer in damage. Otherwise its' just a subjob.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

A. The cone is impotent in terms of its shape and size, requiring constant position changes

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So increase the size of the cone and adjust damage/hate accordingly. Could even limit the cone effect the the MRD is actually tanking.

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B. The steadfast required for half of them unreliable and hamstringing.

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Then change steadfast to have nothing to do with standing still and something to do with another element of play.

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C. AoE meleeing is gimp because...

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Of the two problems above, which I have solved.

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D. Mages and Archers already have superior group attacks, so you're better off having the archers who can deplete TP with their mark attacks, or pugilists or lancers who can increase their TP with their regular attacks.

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This is until mobs in dungeons start getting larger health pools, are faster in terms of movement to one-shot an archer or conjurer, and more resistant to crowd control. The mistake in design is too much AoE crowd control, from what I can see (single target CC with cooldowns involved would mean the CON has to choose who to CC).

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E. The mages have already slept half the crowd for REAL crowd control and you just screwed that up, thanks.

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Read my above paragraph.

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F. AoE meleeing is futile.

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Can be used to create an interesting tanking mechanic (along with obviously single-target tanking), provided the developers put effort into making the class work as such when tanking.

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Marauder is a single target DD or it's nothing. This...whatever it is trying to be...isn't going to work.

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They borrowed part of the idea behind Bear Druids from WoW and tried to combine it with the Warlord class from Lineage II. *shrug*

Regardless of what they TRIED to do Marauder IS just a gladiator subjob right now.

Peregrine you keep mentioning Marauder AoE like it practically doesn't exist. Marauders DO have AoE attacks they can use to hit entire groups, it's just not as effective as one or two Archer skills or mage nuke AoEs. They can still do it and if you have them along the added damage certainly if nothing else helps. Is it the best at it? No, but it can do it. Yes that does need to change but that seems to be the direction they were originally taking it in. The largest and most often used AoE range for any melee class. No matter what you say they're awful against single targets and do much better against larger groups. Best? No, but better than they did against a single target.

All in all though we'll have to see what they do with the class rebalancing and the job system in regards to Marauder.

They can still do it if we have them along, is that what the argument has become?
When you can't find a real AoE job, well you can take a marauder?

How lofty a goal. Sloppy...not even seconds.

Look, the reality of classes is that they have a finite amount of usefulness points. Archers have spent their usefulness points on strengths that matter. Marauders have not. They spent their points on things they are ultimately still gimp at and will probably always be gimp at.

Just as thief spent all its usefulness points on hate control and didn't have any more left over for what really mattered-damage...marauder is a waste of a DD, stocked with enmity-generators and impotent AoE ability.

Nothing a marauder is designed to do is a desirable trait in a meleer. It's just not.
If you want an AoE job, get a mage or an archer.
If you want a DD job, get an archer.
If you want a tank get a gladiator.

A marauder is, by your own admission, something you settle for when you can't find something better. You can argue that being good at a lot of different things matters, but as long as there is no point in taking all of them into consideration at once, there is no point in even inviting marauder at all for any singular role.

And the game just does not support, and probably can't support, a makebelieve scenario where a marauder would "shine." You feel free to come up with one and I'll give you a more optimal setup that doesn't include marauders.

Old marauders like to brag about how good they were at the former Mosshorn Dodore and haughtpox camps...and sorry. They just weren't that great, even at their best. Me AoE'ing plus a gladiator tanking better simply ate their lunches. Marauder there was marauder everywhere. Something you settled for when you didn't have a gladiator.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Just as thief spent all its usefulness points on hate control and didn't have any more left over for what really mattered-damage...marauder is a waste of a DD, stocked with enmity-generators and impotent AoE ability.

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Which have the potential to work if properly-tweaked. Hence why MRD can be a working AoE tank (where damage done by the tank doesn't matter because the important thing is holding aggro from the DPS) with the ability to single-target tank as well. The idea is to say "GLD and MRD are both tanks" and go from there. Again, MRD seems to be partyl based on bear Druids from WoW due to how their abilities are set up.

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And the game just does not support, and probably can't support, a makebelieve scenario where a marauder would "shine." You feel free to come up with one and I'll give you a more optimal setup that doesn't include marauders.

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Six mobs that need to be held in place while the AoE'rs do their thing. Mobs that won't die in the first barrage of AoE thrown at them. What those of us who played WoW consider a standard trash pull.

Aside from that, adds during a fight that need to be held in place while burned down by DPS that cannot be CC'd. It's more off-tank than anything else, but its a start. The class needs more work, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Six mobs that need to be held in place while the AoE'rs do their thing. Mobs that won't die in the first barrage of AoE thrown at them. What those of us who played WoW consider a standard trash pull.

Aside from that, adds during a fight that need to be held in place while burned down by DPS that cannot be CC'd. It's more off-tank than anything else, but its a start. The class needs more work, regardless.

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Marauder is a waste of a party slot in a fight where 6 mobs are being mowed down awake, because for them to be of any use, all 6 mobs have to be within that pathetic little cone. Good luck. I'll just have a gladiator occupy them all and rotate T2 nukes on them, have archers wide volley across the entire row of them which is the most likely pattern they'll settle on to try to kill your tank, compound dot's on them, and have thaumaturges help out.

In that setting where AoE damage vastly outweighs the importance of tanking, the marauder is simply an inferior AoE'er. Better to get a real tank and real AoE'ers and leave the marauder out.

I already said that marauders who think they used to shine at the multi-mob NM camps were kidding themselves. I'm not kidding. Get a real tank and a real AoE class. Those are the people who shine at those camps, not marauder. Marauder just kindof suffices at both.

Being the best inferior job at both the required roles in a fight does not equal shining in a fight. Gladiato+1st class AoE'ers > Marauder trying to do both while the real AoE'ers spend too much time curing them.

Off-tank=useless role that no one needs you for. Sleep the adds.

Fact remains that there is NO situation where a marauder shines. The only situation that the job thinks its good at, it's not. Marauder tries to combine it's only two remotely pheasible claims into a situation where it shines, and in that situation they're just inferior at everything they do, which is tank and AoE.

Being a 2nd class tank and 2nd class AoE'er is never going to combine to get you something that's worth more than a 1st class tank and 1st class AoE'er working together. It's just not going to happen, guys. 2nd best is gimp.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Marauder is a waste of a party slot in a fight where 6 mobs are being mowed down awake, because for them to be of any use, all 6 mobs have to be within that pathetic little cone. Good luck. I'll just have a gladiator occupy them all and rotate T2 nukes on them, have archers wide volley across the entire row of them which is the most likely pattern they'll settle on to try to kill your tank, compound dot's on them, and have thaumaturges help out.

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I'm beginning to get the feeling that you don't bother to read any responses to your claims. Either that or you're too locked in whatever mentality it is to see that possibilities exist provided you change certain things about the class in question. Or did you somehow get the impression that I claim this possible with MRD as it currently is? Far from it, to tell you the truth.

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Off-tank=useless role that no one needs you for. Sleep the adds.

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Adds are immune to sleep and gravity. It is possible to create boss adds that can't be cheesed through CC and instead need to be AoE tanked.

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Being a 2nd class tank and 2nd class AoE'er is never going to combine to get you something that's worth more than a 1st class tank and 1st class AoE'er working together. It's just not going to happen, guys. 2nd best is gimp.

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So you agree that MRD needs to be buffed in some capacity to serve a tank or DPS role appropriately?

One thing you need to learn about Peregrine is that they can't be reasoned with. They DO NOT listen or read posts made by others that have even the scent of disagreement on them. The immediately resort to Straw Man reasoning or Argumentum ad nauseam (trying to prove a point simply by repeating it OVER and OVER without even considering other points made) or they use their favorite type of argument; Argumentum ad hominem. Which is to skip over the argument entirely and directly and personally attack the person they are debating with. Logical Fallacies are at the very heart of every post this person has made and almost everyone would agree with that, considering the grand total of likes Peregrine has received is a whopping zero, on any post of theirs that I have had the misfortune to have read. They are a forum troll at I strongly suggest blocking them. I find my blood pressure and overall ease of reading has improved ten fold since I no longer have to wade through their psycho babble.

In relation to the original post I will agree that Mrd does need some fixing; however, its more of an issue of the battle system in general and I'm looking forward to the upcoming 1.18 patch too see what it brings. Essentially the main beef i have is that SE gave almost every class (more so Mrd obviously but besides the point) AOE ability yet they punish us for using them. Aggroing more than one mob doesn't result in more SP for managing to kill the extras, you are actually given just the opposite, no sp. Why give us all these AOE powers when you are usually going to be scolded for having used them save for a few specific leves or NM's? I predict Mrd's abilities getting an enmity/dmg over haul to make us more useful for the upcoming dungeon scenarios where (hopefully) serious crowd control and multiple sp mob kills will come into play.

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Originally Posted by Filtiarne

One thing you need to learn about Peregrine is that they can't be reasoned with. They DO NOT listen or read posts made by others that have even the scent of disagreement on them. The immediately resort to Straw Man reasoning or Argumentum ad nauseam (trying to prove a point simply by repeating it OVER and OVER without even considering other points made) or they use their favorite type of argument; Argumentum ad hominem. Which is to skip over the argument entirely and directly and personally attack the person they are debating with. Logical Fallacies are at the very heart of every post this person has made and almost everyone would agree with that, considering the grand total of likes Peregrine has received is a whopping zero, on any post of theirs that I have had the misfortune to have read. They are a forum troll at I strongly suggest blocking them. I find my blood pressure and overall ease of reading has improved ten fold since I no longer have to wade through their psycho babble.

In relation to the original post I will agree that Mrd does need some fixing; however, its more of an issue of the battle system in general and I'm looking forward to the upcoming 1.18 patch too see what it brings. Essentially the main beef i have is that SE gave almost every class (more so Mrd obviously but besides the point) AOE ability yet they punish us for using them. Aggroing more than one mob doesn't result in more SP for managing to kill the extras, you are actually given just the opposite, no sp. Why give us all these AOE powers when you are usually going to be scolded for having used them save for a few specific leves or NM's? I predict Mrd's abilities getting an enmity/dmg over haul to make us more useful for the upcoming dungeon scenarios where (hopefully) serious crowd control and multiple sp mob kills will come into play.

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it actually could in the old sp system, and they say they will correct the one mob issue, but he is right, to use the aoe well you tend to have to mob as the mobs adjust, and that kills steadfast, i never got the skill that allows you to move while steadfast, but if it doesnt give you a long time, or has a long recast, its kind of almost pointless. It should really be a switch on off skill.
Also they would have to create content of high level with multi mobs. Not to mention, while before, one might say marauder or pug had better dps while tanking, without stamina, glads DPS is going to sky rocket, guard alone not having stamina is going to throw thier damage way up.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you don't bother to read any responses to your claims. Either that or you're too locked in whatever mentality it is to see that possibilities exist provided you change certain things about the class in question. Or did you somehow get the impression that I claim this possible with MRD as it currently is? Far from it, to tell you the truth.
Adds are immune to sleep and gravity. It is possible to create boss adds that can't be cheesed through CC and instead need to be AoE tanked.
So you agree that MRD needs to be buffed in some capacity to serve a tank or DPS role appropriately?

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I read all your comments. You just can't come up with a justification for marauder's effectiveness. It's physically impossible, because the concept of marauder isn't new.

Doesn't matter if you can't sleep the adds or kite them. If that's the case, then you put them on the BEST tank and you get the BEST AoE'ers to kill them. Putting the gimp tank that can gimp AoE into the game is the incorrect decision in that case. He'll either die, or he'll not be able to hit 3 of the 7 enemies.

If you can't sleep the adds, even more reason for your best tank to get your job and the more dependable AoE'ers to get your job too. Marauder would be an undependable liability in such a fight.

Sorry. That's just the reality of marauder. You literally cannot come up with a scenario where it's a better choice than gladiator plus 1st-tier AoE jobs, because it doesn't exist. It never existed. Marauders never shined. Ever. Stick a gladiator where the marauder is and a real AoE job, and the marauder's shining now looks dull.

That's just how it is. Unfortunate. But marauders have to be honest with themselves. They're not good at oldschool dodore.

I'll say it again, because people still aren't getting it. You never shined at oldschool dodore. You were not that great a tank, and not that great an AoE'er.

Gonna have to deal with that reality if MRD is to move on.

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Originally Posted by Physic

it actually could in the old sp system, and they say they will correct the one mob issue, but he is right, to use the aoe well you tend to have to mob as the mobs adjust, and that kills steadfast, i never got the skill that allows you to move while steadfast, but if it doesnt give you a long time, or has a long recast, its kind of almost pointless. It should really be a switch on off skill.
Also they would have to create content of high level with multi mobs. Not to mention, while before, one might say marauder or pug had better dps while tanking, without stamina, glads DPS is going to sky rocket, guard alone not having stamina is going to throw thier damage way up.

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Correct. Not only is steadfast unreliable, even if you do move in position 2 seconds later a mob decides they don't like that and hop right out of your piddly cone area. You're not hitting 6 eyes at once at Dodore. You're hitting 3. The mages are hitting 6. The archers are hitting more than you are.

To work, marauder would have to have a draw-in ability to that sucks mobs up to its pathetic cone while mass-provoking them, and then binding them in place. That's really the only way they're going to be worth inviting for the things the job claims it can do.

Their tanking is sub-par, and their AoE'ing is both unreliable and sub-par. Those are the facts. They are undeniable. It is *never* going to work as designed. Marauder was simply poorly designed as a heavy DD.

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Originally Posted by Physic

it actually could in the old sp system,

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No it didn't. In the old system you still only were able to proc SP on claimed (red name) mobs only, just like now.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

No it didn't. In the old system you still only were able to proc SP on claimed (red name) mobs only, just like now.

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hmm might be so, worked on leves, but works on leves now. also you used to get sp even if someone else killed your mob, even if they were out of party, but thats a different issue.

I think they may kill claiming in open world, they asked some question implying that in the polls i think.

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Originally Posted by Physic

hmm might be so, worked on leves, but works on leves now. also you used to get sp even if someone else killed your mob, even if they were out of party, but thats a different issue.

I think they may kill claiming in open world, they asked some question implying that in the polls i think.

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That's because on some leves enemies spawn in groups, and when you claim them, you claim the whole group as one and all the mobs' names in that group turn red.


The reason why you might have gotten SP when someone else killed your mob is because of action-based SP that accumulated during the fight, but it doesn't get totaled and applied towards your character until the mob dies.