Sylphie has the two best WHM class quests (technically one WHM and one CNJ, of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by StragoMagus
The Stormblood one? Kicked me right in the feels.
Dear Healers who don't DPS
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09-16-2017, 07:22 PMTridus
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09-16-2017, 11:00 PMCynfaelBingo. The problem we're having with this thread is the lack of reasonable arguments on the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Pretty much every attempt to excuse experienced players from using their full kits turns into one of the following:
- War on Straw (usually an attack against elitism, harassment, or some other objectionable behavior)
- All My Parties Suck
- I Do What I Want (the ultimate selfish argument, because who cares about their fellow player's experience, right?) -
09-16-2017, 11:55 PMAylis
As a very long time healer, I'll be the first to admit yes I do play very conservatively when grouped with randoms in terms of how much DPS I put out. It's not because I'm "lazy" nor is it because I want a "carry" It's because, well...I don't know you or the rest of the party. You can tell me all day you have all tanks max level. That really doesn't tell me anything. Did you learn to play the tank from the ground up? Did you just fate grind for faster que's? I don't know. I could look at your lodestone character page all day, all it is to me is a guessing game on which class you know vs ones you don't. You could very well be the best tank in the game for all I know. It takes a little more time then one simple dungeon to fully gauge a tank and find out what I can and can't get away with. Also, its not just about the tank. It's the rest of the group as well. I don't know their capabilities as much as I don't know yours. I can't speak for other healers, just myself.
Also...
This does not help the situation all in in showing me in that one fast dungeon that a tank is a capable tank while I'm still gauging the tank's abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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09-17-2017, 12:00 AMTaikaI don't think anyone would have an issue with this. As long as you're not standing still doing absolutely nothing or /mandervilledancing away for significant periods of time, it's all good. The healers people have issues with are the ones who absolutely refuse to do anything but healing - even when there isn't much anything at all for them to heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylis
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09-17-2017, 01:27 AMMoroMurasakiOne of the best and most concise summaries I've seen, personally I have multiple 3k+ word posts trying to just get this simple point across.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Omg I cannot with those quests. I try not to even think about them honestly. Very well done though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
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09-17-2017, 03:44 AMAylisOh! Okay that's different then. Nah I really HATE just not doing anything. I may not go all out with a pug tank/group with my DPS as I would with a tank and group made of people who I know and we know each other and what we can do and here we need to pick up for each other, but I won't just not do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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09-17-2017, 03:50 AMStragoMagus
Guess it's a world server thing. When I used to be on Elemental (JP) healers aren't aggressive and at most use DOTs while the tanks pull conservatively focusing on a stress free gameplay. Quite the opposite on Chaos (EU).
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09-17-2017, 09:10 AMera1NeIs it an reasonable argument to say "i'll stand in every aoe to force new healers to heal more, if they don't want to dps?" No, it is not. Is it reasonable to start an insane discussion, when someone and i remember this happend - months ago - said "Well, i do dps, but i don't like it. Healers in games should heal more". When he basically did what people want, but just stated his opinion on healers in the game. I remember at the time, some comments where really toxic for no real reason, because he didn't refuse to do dmg. Just didnt like how healers play in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Both sides can be unreasonable and Aylis is right that it doesn't help new healers, when you just don't use cd or start standing in everything, because then they get even more insecure, since they expect nothing but the worst of the group and they usually don't want people to die. Instead we should help them and tell them, "look we didn't get a lot of dmg, you can do a few dmg cast. Trust us". Helps much more than deliberately playing very bad to force the healer healing much more, because this could give him the mindset that there is really no place to do (a lot of) dmg. Which is ofc wrong, since there is a lot of space to do dmg. Additionally the dd comparisons are sometimes bad, because you literally can't kill people in 90% of the dungeons with doing your rotation wrongly. But you can kill people, if you don't heal in the right moments. While i get that people want healers to dps and personally i like healers to dps aswell, some people don't see the difference between dps and healers mistakes and what they can mean for the group. Heal mistakes have an higher risk of killing people and this makes a difference. -
09-17-2017, 10:16 AMBourne_EndeavorTo be fair, it isn't difficult to adjust. My opening gambit is to always Swiftcast Holy into Aero III; maybe with a Cure II/Tetra once the pull settles if they took excessive damage along the way that Regen won't account for. That gives me more than enough time to see how the tank's handling the pull. If their HP drops faster than normal, I have Presence of Mind and Largesse available. Either way, like Taika said, there is a difference between feeling out your party and standing around doing absolutely nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylis
JP has a noticeably different approach to all content. Non-hardcore groups consider it rude for both tanks to be in DPS stance or both healers to have Cleric going before that was removed. Westerns prefer a faster paced playgame, thus we do huge pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by StragoMagus
You're remembering wrong then, because many here have advocated for more healing checks or something that necessitates greater emphasis on healing. Until such adjustments are made, we aren't going to support gimping your role because you dislike how healing jobs play in FFXIV. If you're refusing to DPS as a healer, you fall into three categories:Quote:
Originally Posted by era1Ne
Inexperience/New - Few if anyone has taken umbrage with these players, provided they communicate.
Cautious - Basically, Aylis
Selfish - "It isn't my job to DPS."
That last one is what grinds people's gears. So much so, most people I have come across be it here, reddit or in-game prefer a wipe because a healer missed timed their oGCD than someone being overly cautious and not DPSing at all. -
09-17-2017, 11:57 AMCynfaelI'm not sure how we got from my post to talking about someone threatening to stand in AoEs. I didn't say that there weren't people being unreasonable on either side; I specifically agreed with a previous point that there was a lack of reasonable arguments in favor of able, experienced healers using their full kits appropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by era1Ne
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09-17-2017, 12:01 PMKabooaQuote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Literally the thread starter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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09-17-2017, 12:09 PMCynfaelIrrelevant to my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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09-17-2017, 12:14 PMKabooaHey man, this is 60 pages long now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
It's not like anyone cares about relevance at this point. -
09-17-2017, 01:12 PMjovination
My thoughts are simple, it was alright to not DPS in 2.0 and 3.0, clerics was buggy and a lot of times trying to DPS just ended up making pulls a disaster. Stormblood though a healer can go into a "just keep casting" mentality, if there is no need to heal just tab to a mob and start casting. Its really easy to just stop the cast and go into emergency heals if things go bad now, no having to wait on clerics cooldown or risk it not dropping when you need it to.
I main white mage, and although I also play scholar its just not a great healer in my opinion and has far less options when it comes to handling different situations. Its DPS can easily draw aetherflow that could be used for healing abilities and such so at least for that job I can see some argument to being a bit conservative. Astro I have been leveling but I just don't like the job in general so not going to make any notes on it.
Still no healer should need to just stand around unless their low on mana. -
09-17-2017, 05:49 PMTaikaYou're talking about an entirely different thing. Me and Cynfael were pointing out there are no reasonable arguments for why healers shouldn't be DPSing, while there clearly are reasonable arguments for why they should. The phrase in your quote is not an argument for anything. What you're saying, I guess, is that there are people who behave unreasonably on both sides of the argument. But that's an entirely different thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by era1Ne
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09-17-2017, 10:20 PMDeceptusWay to take a single sentence and completely miss the point and context of the entire OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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09-18-2017, 10:10 AMKabooaWhat, that all "Dear X that don't-" threads are largely pointless venting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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09-18-2017, 12:32 PMCynfaelI don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not sure that venting pointlessly about said pointless venting is adding value to the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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09-18-2017, 12:36 PMFtailIt's not like this thread had anything of value to add in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
I think everyone here knows that healers who refuse to DPS, even when they have a clear opportunity to are being anything other than a bad healer. -
09-18-2017, 02:14 PMQT_MelonPointlessception?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
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09-18-2017, 02:18 PMKabooaHaaaah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
That's like the first genuine smile I've had from this thread. -
09-19-2017, 12:12 AMMooglyA healer being new on the job and doing zero DPS due to a lack of confidence, is a valid reason... Many DPSing healer are not taking that into account, or just won't plain accept it as a valid reason : which is not the same as a "reasonnable argument"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
I really want to point out how some people here only consider the "technical" aspect of the problem (no DPS = loss of efficiency) and totally ignore the "personal" aspect of that problem (new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled...).
That's what I tried to explain through my previous posts, but most people were totally blind to it, always coming back to the "efficiency" argument, and "do it for the group" argument.
In a discussion, not even considering the other party argument as valid, will render any attempt to debate over something useless (watch starship troopers, when two experts discuss about insects intelligence)... And it will even make things worse, if one of the group feels it is in a "superior" position (obviously here, pro-healers)
In fact, reading more and more of this thread, to me it feels like the most demanding people here, under the guise of "this is better for the group", are actually demanding more from others for their own personnal benefit. Like : "git gud" so I can get my tomestones faster... Or at least that's what I feel when they totally ignore the "social" aspect of the problem.
Or it feels like some people just want efficiency as hard as if they were working to earn money out of the game...
All that debating is useless as community and game dev team visions of the healer are not the same, and will continue to fuel this rubbish debate.
When you run DF, just try to accomodate with whoever you were teamed up with. And if it doesn't work, you can still ask to be kicked or leave... I only initiated a kick once or twice for rude behaviour, else I am usually the one leaving when playstyles are definitely not compatible. -
09-19-2017, 12:19 AMTaikaUnlike you're claiming, no one here has said otherwise (of course I may have missed a post, in which case feel free to correct me). On the contrary, it's very often brought up that players who are new to the job (or content) are not and should not expected to DPS (even though it is useful to start learning it as early as possible :)). So unless I'm very much mistaken, your argument is a strawman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Edit: Trying to find some proof for my argument really quick...
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Originally Posted by Cynfael
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Originally Posted by Taika
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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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09-19-2017, 12:29 AMMoogly
There is no need to look back in the thread : you're saying it...
To which anti-DPS will easily answer : YoshiP sides with us....Quote:
Me and Cynfael were pointing out there are no reasonable arguments for why healers shouldn't be DPSing
Anyway, read the rest of my previous post, needed to do an edit to pass the 1000 char limits.... -
09-19-2017, 12:37 AMJollyy5
When I introduced my friend to FFXIV and started playing together, he picked Scholar to my surprise. I told him that in this game, many expect you to DPS as a healer, so you might want to learn to DPS whenever you don't need to heal.
He liked the idea and picked it up out the box, although having to play as a DPS for the first 30 levels might've helped.
The way I see it, a healer who doesn't DPS has one of the following problems:
1. Has crippling hardware problems.
2. Is a cripple.
3. Had no one to tell them that healers are expected to DPS until level 60+ or something.
4. Is lazy and/or stubborn. (As in having a "I'm a healer, so I will only heal, period." mentality.)
5. IRL emergencies/distractions.
6. Is new to games in general. -
09-19-2017, 12:44 AMTaikaDo you honestly think, that "this guy says so" is a reasonable argument or grounds for anything? Whatever Yoshi P says has no relevance whatsoever to how the game is actually played - and how the game actually works is what is relevant to this discussion, not how it's talked about. (He of course is in the power of adjusting the game in a way that changes our play style if he so wishes, but that's a separate question - although it may be worth noting that the way he and his team have currently designed the game is exactly the reason why healers are and should be DPSing.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Erm... these are discussion forums about the healer roles in this game, meant and generally used for discussing optimal play for each role (just like the tank and DPS roles which are full of discussions of optimal rotations, stat weights, use of abilities etc.). I take part in these discussions because I'm interested in how these roles are played optimally (as an ex raid healer and current extreme/dungeon healer, but also in general), just like I follow (and sometimes take part in) discussions about how the DPS and tank jobs are played optimally. You may get various feelings reading these discussions that direct your interpretations of them, but in this case at least your line of thought seems a bit far-fetched. It's more likely people read and take part in this discussions because they want to (know how to) play better. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
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09-19-2017, 12:47 AMLastelliNot really. The whole healers dps argument is precisely about the personal aspect because we've had tons of people trying to justify healers not dpsing arguing that "it's not their job, so they don't have to".Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
People that support healers dps argue that a healer not dpsing is just "new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled..." as you said or just bad/watching netflix during an instance (trust me, this is NOT a joke, it's what a lot of players do and not just healers).
Therein lies the problem. People that defend healers that refuse to dps typically don't want to acknowledge this lack of skill or experience. They're healers, they heal, they don't have to dps, as long as they heal they're good players, that's what they usually say. I think no one here ever suggested that a healer should make dps their #1 priority. But a good healer is not one that uses 1/3 of their toolkit and is active for 50% of an encounter, that's for sure. -
09-19-2017, 12:59 AMJollyy5Exactly, it's not fair if the healer gives 20% while everyone else is giving 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastelli
People who argue that they don't need to DPS need to take a tour in the Hall of the Novice. -
09-19-2017, 01:48 AMMoroMurasakiI'm bothered by this for two main reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
I understand I can only represent my own opinions but I do feel like these sentiments can be and have been echoed by the pro DPS side of this debate.
First off the straw man that we are out there hunting down new healers who don't DPS to kick/berate/emotionally eviscerate them. The only thing I have personally said that can relate to this is that I believe a group has a right to kick a healer who refuses to DPS under the "different playstyles" umbrella. To say otherwise is just intellectually dishonest. To be fair I guess this means I could get kicked from a group for DPSing as a healer and while I think that would be a stupid decision I respect my parties right to make it.
The second issue is that the anti-DPS side of the debate seems to fuel itself. You make these arguments and defend this poor playstyle which leads to more people accepting it which leads to more new healers adopting it.
I'm going to use myself as an example. My first class was CNJ and after doing the Sylphie quests my takeaway from that was "use all your abilities" so right from the get go I assumed I had to DPS in dungeons. This was back when that also meant stance dancing to be able to heal. That is how I learned my role and I developed certain habits from it which help me DPS effectively to this day.
There have been a few times my boyfriend is sitting next to me watching me play where my tank(s)/cohealer are complete crap and I'll say something like "that's it, I'm gonna have to stop DPSing to keep these people up" and get all frustrated... but then still maintain my dots at least because it's so built into how I play this game.
I understand how intimidating it may seem to start DPSing when you've been not doing it for a big part of your FFXIV life because I know how hard it is for me to make myself go "pure healer" in the very rare chance I need to do that for a bit. Saying that it is okay for new players to contribute no damage is letting them build up this bad habit which is going to be harder to break the longer they play that way.
I repeat - I do not want a witch hunt for zero DPS healers. I want people, when they encounter someone who plays that way, to offer up some advice on Dots or the stun from a Holy cast or how you can shield the tank and open up a DPS window for yourself. Sometimes you will get back a string of profanity or a "you don't pay my sub" and then it is up to you if you want to keep playing with that person or kick them or leave. Sometimes you might help broaden someone's horizons and help make them a better healer though, is that not worth occasionally getting called a "nosy bitch"?
I think at this point it has been established at the very least that a healer who contributes DPS is objectively better than one who does not assuming they still manage to fill their healer role, why then would you want to turn fledgling healers into less effective versions of themselves if it can be avoided? -
09-19-2017, 02:02 AMKabooaEveryone else giving 100% is plain not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
Which is why these threads tend to be nothing more than a way to vent. -
09-19-2017, 02:09 AMTaikaAlright, the healer giving only 17% while everyone else giving 72-77% then. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
And that's the whole topic of the discussion: healers who refuse to DPS even when there's almost no incoming damage at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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09-19-2017, 02:23 AMKabooaEhhhhQuote:
Originally Posted by Taika
That's hardly fair. Xelphatol does like no damage. At all :P -
09-19-2017, 02:26 AMMoogly
See, in just three answers, you pretty much have proof of what I'm saying :
First, you : you clearly ditch the YoshiP argument... Sorry, but whatever you will say, even if you're better than YoshiP at playing the game, YoshiP is the one creating it and balancing the data in it.... In fact, I still can't believe so many people are saying that YoshiP's vision of the game isn't relevant when in fact it is. I mean, he's the one manipulating the numbers inside you know...
And also, I noticed that when I talk about that aspect of the game, what I call the "personal" or "social" aspect, people say it's far fetched.... Remember we're playing a MMO, and though this might not be that significant to you, social interactions between players in this game are taken very seriously into account, and will influe on the game's mechanics and gameplay.
You consider the healer forum only to talk technical ? Well, I consider it to be about any subject relevant to the healer class, which also includes this.
Unlike a solo game, playing a multiplayer game isn't the same thing. That's why that constant call on pure healer to do some DPS can be percieved in the end as a selfish request.
And sorry, if despite all my explanations you can't figure what I'm trying to point out, it's either that I can't express myself well enough in english (not my mother tongue) or you have tunnel vision...
Lastelli : makes a clear difference between good and bad healers.... also throw a little lie for his cause : healer skills are no way only 1/3 of healer's spell kit :s In fact, it's more like half... duh, it's a healer's spell kit ! But better belittle those anti-DPS by saying they only use 1/3.... And the 50% active of the time... not even considering many beginners who haven't yet mastered the mp recup skills are idling for mp regen.... or because they tried something earlier in another dungeon, failed and are now scared.
Jolly : the "need to go back to the hall of novice", "is crippled", "is lazy/stubborn", or any other little caustic comments. Belittling people won't help... especially when a lot of people making these kind of comments are probably worse players than me.... And you don't do that sort of comments if you're not thinking yourself better than your contradictor.
So 2 problems with most pro-DPS healer :
- The automatic assuption that they are better players. Technically speaking they may be - but on the co-op aspect of the game, they may also be the worst players out there... But anyway, you can feel it in the way pro-DPS are talking to anti-DPS... which is the second problem :
- The quasi constant belittling of those not following their idea - and you would only do that if you think you are already in the "good players" group.
I know lot of you just don't care and won't even make a comment if they meet a pure healer in dungeon, but sorry for you guys : as you know, it's only the most annoying and rude minority that stick out and label a whole group of person.
As I said, this problem has no resolution since it stems from the clash of two POV : community vs game dev team.
And there's this one thing I said a few posts ago : you can't force rules on other people, if you aren't the one making the rules. Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact. -
09-19-2017, 02:46 AMTaika
Moogly, what you're doing here, is putting words into people's mouths and using strawman arguments. You're not really reading other people's arguments but arguing against something that you say some random "most people like this" are saying.
I'm saying how the game actually works and is actually played is different from how it's talked about, and the latter is not relevant to the former. I also said you should consider Yoshi P and his team are the ones who have enforced healer DPS playstyle with their design. They have all the power to change it if they wish to do so, but instead they've been increasing its significance throughout the years - an even encouraged it in Novice Hall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
I said the logic behind your interpretation is far-fetched, I did not say personal or social aspects of the game are insignificant. Also, your premise was that people don't care if players are inexperienced and feel insecure because of that, but I already showed you several posts proving the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
I did not say or mean to say it's only for this. I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Is it also selfish to ask a tank to use cooldowns, or do DPS? If there's a PLD who is inexperienced and only wants to use Flash and nothing else? Is it selfish to ask for a BRD or MCH to give some TP or MP to the party, even though they are inexperienced and want to focus on keeping up their DPS rotation? Is it selfish to ask for a DPS to Goad the tank or other DPS, or ask them to Stun something? Why would healers be the only ones whose feelings matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
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09-19-2017, 02:55 AMWanzerMany games were played differently from what the developers wanted/designed. FFXI was a good example with certain jobs (some of them were meant to be DPS and became tanks or dps in the end.), and it's even something pretty common in most of the videogames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Being the director/producer doesn't always mean you know exactly how things are going to turn between players' hands. That's why the Yoshida said argument can't really work.
And they can say as much as they want that the pure healer is a thing it doesn't change the fact that the game itself isn't designed for it (Unfortunately?), or we wouldn't have so much downtimes as healer.
^This! With Heavensward it was pretty obvious with the new skills that we got as scholar and white mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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09-19-2017, 03:08 AMspagthetapdancer
Not gonna lie, I will hold off on or be less prone to focusing on DPSing if
1) I think the group will not dodge mechanics
2) I think I'm going to need that mana later(if it's a long-term AOE spamming situation, going OOM is a possibility) and the tank is set to take continuous damage for a considerable period of time(30+ seconds of near non-stop damage from adds)
3) Unavoidable damage is incoming
4) my class is not that good at personal DPS(Astrologian)
Because I'm not going to weigh that 5k Malefic III against your life favorable. It isn't worth much. Besides, randoms are kind of idiots.
Also, if Word of God literally says "Fights are NOT balanced with healer damage in mind", then fights are not balanced with healers in mind. your side of the community arbitrarily set our bar higher than the devs did. not us, and frankly, you can eat the sweatiest part of my taint for setting my standards for me. -
09-19-2017, 03:26 AMHookla
I consider it icing on the cake if the healer can put out any dps while keeping me alive. They're a healer first. I think people need to chill out with their expectations, it's a damn game.
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09-19-2017, 03:27 AMTridusSpeaking as a professional software developer... vision isn't relevant. Outcome is. There's a famous saying in Computer Science: "The computer does what I tell it to, not what I want."Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
YoshiP may want to make a game where healers don't DPS in dungeons. In Stormblood, he didn't do that. In fact, he did the opposite by making it *EASIER* for healers to DPS in dungeons, and then giving us fights like O2N where tank damage is covered by Regen alone and all incoming group damage is telegraphed far in advance.
Anybody who knows the fight can know with absolute certainty that there is no incoming damage to heal for the next 10 seconds. At that point, there's no chance of being caught off guard by damage, no risk someone dying because you're midcast on Stone, and no particular risk of you even being in the wrong place since you don't have to move until the telegraph comes up.
What justification is there for being idle at that point? "I don't feel like doing DPS" is not a valid reason, any more than it would be if a tank said it. The game gives you a window where you have no healing to do with absolute certainty, and gives you useful damage skills that don't require you to cripple your healing to use. That's as clear as a game design can possibly be.
If YoshiP really wanted healers to not DPS in dungeons, he'd have kept Cleric stance in and made it like AST Sects: Once it's on, you can't turn it off. Problem solved. That he did the opposite and made DPS easier speaks pretty loudly.
I mean, I've been levelling Paladin. I can hold aggro on everything in Doma Castle (my job) with just Flash and my defensive cooldowns, doing 0 DPS. By this logic, I can flash 6 times, hit Rampart, and then stand around doing nothing for the rest of the pull. I've done my job as a tank, right?
Oddly, we don't see hardly any tanks doing that, and we don't see the community defend them when they do. Ditto with DPSers who don't feel like using AoE abilities on big pulls. Nobody goes "oh, well Jolt is good enough to clear the content, so there's no reason to use anything else."
I expect everyone in the group to make a good faith effort to help the group. That means not standing around 75% of the fight doing absolutely nothing when they could be doing something helpful. I hold everyone to that standard, and don't see why experienced healers should get special snowflake treatment.
Pretty much everyone gives newbies a pass. I see them all the time in levelling roulette as a tank and Red Mage (the other thing I've been working on), and have never seen anyone raise a fuss about it. I see people even get away with it in Deltascape Normal without anybody saying anything. DF groups just don't care that much if they get the clear.Quote:
not even considering many beginners who haven't yet mastered the mp recup skills are idling for mp regen.... or because they tried something earlier in another dungeon, failed and are now scared.
Higher tier groups do, because harder content demands people push harder. But if you're on Ex/Savage, you're not doing newbie friendly content anymore.
That logic also explains how the newbies who don't know how to weave in DPS and/or don't have the confidence to do it get lumped in with people who could and simply don't feel like it, then come here and write pages about what the developer vision is based on a single old quote, when they don't have any insider information about that vision and when the actual product promotes the opposite of that supposed vision.Quote:
I know lot of you just don't care and won't even make a comment if they meet a pure healer in dungeon, but sorry for you guys : as you know, it's only the most annoying and rude minority that stick out and label a whole group of person.
Community vs community, more accurately. You don't speak for the dev team. More importantly, SE lets you kick people for not DPSing as healers from a group as a "difference in playstyle." If it's not something they want, why do they condone that?Quote:
As I said, this problem has no resolution since it stems from the clash of two POV : community vs game dev team.
Actually, the community can. Community standards are created by the community, not the developers. That's why they're called community standards. Red Mages don't have to use Verraise/Vercure, but the community thinks much more highly of the ones that do when it's needed than it does of the ones who complain about how it's the healers job and would impact their DPS numbers.Quote:
And there's this one thing I said a few posts ago : you can't force rules on other people, if you aren't the one making the rules. Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact.
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09-19-2017, 03:31 AMMooglystrawman arguments.... again ditching out any possibility of debate even though :Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
There are a bunch of SB interviews in which YoshiP clearly states that he and his team do not like healer focusing too much on DPS. They did remove the stance dance to make it easier for those who wanted, but clearly double pointed out that it was not mandatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
I'll try with an analogy : won't be sure if it'll fit in, but that will give you the general idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Cars can easily go faster than 55mph. If you want to be efficient with your car, you better drive it at 70mph, since it can go that fast. State patrol could arrest you if you went above 55mph, but who cares, they're never watching, and actually won't even say a thing if they do happen to catch you speeding. Hell, even state patrol is driving way above 70mph... So it's a common thing for everybody to be driving at 70mph on that 55mph road. Then, you encounter someone who is driving at 55 mph... because there was that one sign that was saying so : would that be considered as bad driving ?
If you happen to stop that driver and start arguing with him, it will be the same thing as in this thread.
You didn't understand what I consider selfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Asking a player politely to try doing some DPS is OK. I am for any constructive behaviour in this game.
But the way some people here are belittling others, or automatically making the assumption that pure healer are bad healers will only fuel the hate. And in the end, you get that feeling that those rude people only ask lots from others for their own benefit. I mean I don't know how to explain it better, even those kind of situations are pretty common IRL, doesn't only happen in games... In my country, we call those people sharks : ready to destroy or pressure anybody just so they get their promotion or extra-bonus...
This is the selfishness I am talking about.
Now why would some pro DPS try so hard to make pure healer do some DPS to the point of belittling them ?
I cannot find any other reason than this one...
edit for Tridus
As a former web-dev, I also know that you cannot listen to your customer every dreams and wishes as your project might very well fall to the ground.
Specs were defined : stick to it. It is even sometimes your job to impose your decision on what can be done and what must be done, no matter what the customer may say.
And in a project of the scale of FFXIV, you cannot rely only on the top tier suggestions as they are a minority in the game (in any game actually).
Look who won in wow... was it the hardcore raiders ?
Also, SB was definitely tuned for zero healer DPS : YoshiP's interview by Mr Happy.
So I am in no way imagining things or speaking in their stand : they actually did say it and even wanted to make sure that people knew it was their point.
The 2nd community would then be the pure healer group standing behind YoshiP and his team.
Finally, I am only talking about DF - though even for savage fights, healer DPS isn't mandatory. I can't find the interview again, but YoshiP explained that to determine the health pool of savage bosses, they would take the mean performance of all tank and dps in the superior tier and lower that by 10-15%. I actually think this was part of his explanation of why healer DPS really wasn't mandatory as it wasn't even taken into account in the tuning of the fight. This also explain why top tier group manage to push bosses and skip phases...
FFXIV, unlike Wow, do not push the players too far. They want to give players some challenging content, but also want people to be able to enjoy all the content while not necessarily being a hardcore raider.
But then most savage fights are formed through PF - in which clear rules are stated by players - and valid in this case. So in this case there is no complaining possible from anti-DPS. -
09-19-2017, 03:36 AMspagthetapdancerdo a good enough job of not interfering with my task of ensuring party security and stability that I can trust you and you won't even have to ask me to put icing on your cake ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookla
on the other hand, act like a pushy douche and you'll get nothing nice from me no matter how good a player you are.