Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

If anyone is actually willing to discuss this without being negative and hateful, I’m all ears. :)

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Let's be honest, you're not actually looking for discussion, you're looking for a sounding board and people to agree with you. I'd still like to hear what hardcore crafting looks like to you though. Anything I can think of to make crafting more "difficult" can still be done as well as a human hand crafting or better by a website app even if you can't macro.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

Let's be honest, you're not actually looking for discussion, you're looking for a sounding board and people to agree with you.

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You can’t make it skill based. It can only be difficult by adding RNG because it’s based on math.

Oh, and you can disagree with someone without starting and/or taking part in a e-lynch mob and saying unnecessarily rude things. Be civil or be ignored. And I can clearly see you should be ignored, buh bye. You could have easily began this conversation without coming off like that. Not sure why you thought it was necessary to put that in there, when you know that’s not how this works.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

You can’t make it skill based. It can only be difficult by adding RNG because it’s based on math.

You can disagree with someone without starting a e-lynch mob and saying unnecessarily rude things. Be civil or be ignored. And I can clearly see you should be ignored, buh bye. You could have easily began this conversation without coming off like that. Not sure why you thought it was necessary to put that in there, when you know that’s not how this works.

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I wasn't trying to be rude, but I have read almost every post in this thread. You've been treating this more like a blog post than a forum thread. You keep saying rng, but a trained neural network can figure out what to do with procs as well as any skilled crafter, so you're basically back at where we are now with macros only it takes longer per synth.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

I wasn't trying to be rude, but I have read almost every post in this thread. You've been treating this more like a blog post than a forum thread. You keep saying rng, but a trained neural network can figure out what to do with procs as well as any skilled crafter, so you're basically back at where we are now with macros only it takes longer per synth.

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The more you treat this like a blog post, the more controversial it gets. It’s already controversial enough due to how many players hated 2.0 - 3.5’s crafting. :P

And it really depends on how the procs are implemented. Yeah, maybe other crafters can figure out a macro, but if it’s very thought intuitive like Yoshida says it will be, I have my doubts it can be macro’d.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

We had macros in 2.0 when we were much more reliant on procs, they just had lots of different finishers depending on how many tricks of the trade you got during the initial progress and quality actions. If you break anything down into enough parts you can macro for any specific condition you need to meet.

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True, you could technically macro Hasty Touch back then, but if you just blew through a macro, and failed, it would be pointless. It was a lot more optimal back then to manual craft. So yes, you’re right actually, about macros. What I’m trying to say is, it’ll probably be the same as it was back then. Where, you can macro it, but if you do, there’s still a a chance you will NQ a craft instead of HQ it. Where as when you manually craft, your chances of getting HQ are a bit higher. But you needed to be decent at crafting.

The removal of skill bloat will make it to where it’s a lot easier to be decent at crafting. Makes sense when you think about it. :)

POST LIMIT!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

The more you treat this like a blog post, the more controversial it gets. It’s already controversial enough due to how many players hated 2.0 - 3.5’s crafting. :P

And it really depends on how the procs are implemented. Yeah, maybe other crafters can figure out a macro, but if it’s very thought intuitive like Yoshida says it will be, I have my doubts it can be macro’d.

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We had macros in 2.0 when we were much more reliant on procs, they just had lots of different finishers depending on how many tricks of the trade you got during the initial progress and quality actions. If you break anything down into enough parts you can macro for any specific condition you need to meet.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Haha, you can call it whatever you want to call it. Fact remains, it’s just common sense. If a grocery store begins to sell expired or bad goods to the public, and they eventually go out of business, common sense will tell you it’s because of the expired goods you purchased and didn’t like when you last went there. “Numbers” are irrelevant if you don’t have them. Which, you likely don’t, seeing as you are a regular person that is nowhere near this grocery store company’s CEO level. All you can do is make educated guesses.

Also, over the years, I would say around 30 - 32 per server? Back then, many people were pretty serious and hardcore about crafting, not counting just the competitive ones. On each server, my friends list was probably 180+, so, I’m sure a decent percentage of that were hardcore players. (And raiders too. Mostly because they wanted someone to craft them gear to be ready for a savage patch back then,)

By the way, your guesswork and scooby-doo interrogation-esque tone shouldn’t be regarded as authority either. The one who should be the authority, is the one who knows these hardcore players in question. And better yet, is one. You’re not going to change my mind. That’s just basic knowledge.

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What guesswork? I haven't done any guesswork, nor have I tried to play myself off as an authority. The only person who's done that is you.

Also, your analogy isn't exactly great, because if the hypothetical grocery store in question is supposed to represent the crafting system, then the analogy would be that the store changed policy, making it more accessible to the public, so that it has a broader customer base and has a less niche market. It did mean, however, that it no longer stocks certain items that the more niche customers used to like.

I mean, just call the situation as it is: you lost a bunch of friends, it sucks, and you're hoping SE changes things with Ishgard restoration so that you can convince your friends to go play FFXIV with you again and do crafting stuff together. Don't pass yourself off as the voice of hardcore crafters and try to sound bigger than you really are. Your position would be much more sympathetic if you kept it at that rather than try to be the champion of the hardcore crafter.

As an aside, the term 'hardcore crafter' should be defined. I've maxed out all of my DoH and DoL every expansion, all of my DoH shared gear is penta-melded (I can macro facet gear from all NQ without needing to meld my main and off hand), I've had weeks where I spend a few hours everyday crafting, and I don't consider myself hardcore. I'm a pretty casual player all around.

Well the idea of hardcore crafting actually interest mostly because of time sync which is what this is really about, "How much time do you invest to be considered hardcore vs casual.

I do agree they need to make things more difficult in crafting and now its stupid easy to get anything hq pre max level/end game. However, RNG has nothing to with skill whatsoever. RNG is the equivalent IBS imo. I hate Rng and yet how else can the devs realistic add any kinda of challenge to endgame hardcore crafter who put in the time BiS whatever they want to make.

As for the other comments made, no one is attacking just speculating because that's all they can do.

Idea: once reaching max level and completed all job quests why not have competition set up based on a pvp style only crafting where you would have time limit, restricted skills for duration, Head to head for speed crafting with quick synth disabled. Maybe even do team sets with specialists and you have to craft on the spot with a group different parts. Crafting Raids(not sure how to implement) where you d have craft something large scale like a ship or house or something.....

I believe most can agree crafting isn't for everybody. But OP suggestions aren't terrible and not elitist at all to me.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

I believe most can agree crafting isn't for everybody. But OP suggestions aren't terrible and not elitist at all to me.

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Her suggestions aren't elitist, but she sure pulls the "HOW DARE YOU FILTHY PLEB!" attitude with a number of people in this thread, to the point I've been tempted to report her for her hostile tone.

Anybody who disagrees with her is "hostile" to her, but yet she can look down her nose at us, and wave her epeen around, "LOOK AT ME I MAKE ONE BILLION GIL A MONTH AND I HAVE 10 RETAINERS AND I GOT MULTIPLE OMNICRAFTER ACCOUNTS, DO YOU HAVE THAT!?!??

That is extremely toxic and hostile behavior and it doesn't belong on the forums, nor in-game.

As for crafting "isn't for everybody" ... the only reason why it wasn't, was because of how absurd it got. After 5.1, however, crafting is much more accessible to many more players.

I, myself said that the suggestion of having a small niche hardcore crafting area is fine, but I didn't like her attitude. You want a few glams or some other kind of aesthetic that's hardcore as frick? Fine. Just like the special snowflakes can have their Ultimate Ballads and Savage Raids.

I'm fine with that. Those do not impact me until or unless I get some elitist looking down their nose at me like my $14.95 is worth less than theirs because I don't do said content myself.

EDIT: Also it is hilarious that SHE HERSELF admits that it is impossible to make Skill-Based crafting. She wants "hardcore" crafting, but yet admits that this "hardcore" crafting would not be hardcore because it takes skill. Basically, she just wants a grindfest so atrocious that 99% of the playerbase can't handle it, but yet she can, so she can stay at the top of the list because she would already be going into it with a massive stack of gil and maxed out crafters.

She wants to self-validate the time she spent getting all that gil and those crafters up. She took it upon herself to take on a ridiculous project that goes far above and beyond what Yoshi-P designed for the game and wants special content tailored just for her.

It's self-entitlement to 11.

EDIT2: I'll give you an example from my own point of view. I have 9,500 venture coins. I have this silly and stupid goal of maxing out at 65,000 venture coins. What if, I took to the forums, whining that I want special shinies that take 10,000 venture coins to buy, because I have nothing to spend venture coins on other than the 8 per day I spend on my retainers?

It would be just as stupid of an argument.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

Well the idea of hardcore crafting actually interest mostly because of time sync which is what this is really about, "How much time do you invest to be considered hardcore vs casual.

I do agree they need to make things more difficult in crafting and now its stupid easy to get anything hq pre max level/end game. However, RNG has nothing to with skill whatsoever. RNG is the equivalent IBS imo. I hate Rng and yet how else can the devs realistic add any kinda of challenge to endgame hardcore crafter who put in the time BiS whatever they want to make.

As for the other comments made, no one is attacking just speculating because that's all they can do.

Idea: once reaching max level and completed all job quests why not have competition set up based on a pvp style only crafting where you would have time limit, restricted skills for duration, Head to head for speed crafting with quick synth disabled. Maybe even do team sets with specialists and you have to craft on the spot with a group different parts. Crafting Raids(not sure how to implement) where you d have craft something large scale like a ship or house or something.....

I believe most can agree crafting isn't for everybody. But OP suggestions aren't terrible and not elitist at all to me.

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Well said, thank you and I appreciate you for being civil and unbiased unlike two other posters on previous pages.

I agree, RNG sucks and all, but when you think about it, there seems to be no real way to make it truly “difficult” or skill based. There can only be fake difficulty = RNG. That’s all that can be done, honestly. I just can’t fathom why people honestly believe endgame-anything should be easy as pie. That is so backwards.

For the most part I agree with what you’re saying.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Well said, thank you and I appreciate you for being civil and unbiased unlike two other posters on previous pages.

I agree, RNG sucks and all, but when you think about it, there seems to be no real way to make it truly “difficult” or skill based. There can only be fake difficulty = RNG. That’s all that can be done, honestly. I just can’t fathom why people honestly believe endgame-anything should be easy as pie. That is so backwards.

For the most part I agree with what you’re saying.

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The problem is, it was never hard. It was a gear check and as people accumulate more and more resources in stockpiles, meeting final gear check becomes easier.



SE can make this "hard" to the point of impossible but what they need to do is add a diminishing returns system to a side quest crafting system. Like Anima crafting or something. If they have a proper diminishing return, you never meet cap. They could add it to the rebuild system as well but it needs to be rewarded with cosmetic returns after a point or it becomes a barrier.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

So, them being easier to get somehow makes them less useful as equipment, or more ugly as glamours. Okaaaay.



Does everything have to be about how much farking gil you can make off of it, or epeen factor? Seriously. I really don't get this obsession with making so stinking much gil that you don't know what to do with.

Dunno about anybody else, but I thought the value in, say, a weapon is how much damage it does, or in the case of a glam weapon, how good it looks.

I really never understood this "It's hard to get or it's rare therefore it's more valuable" ... I've seen some terrible weapons that (to me) look absolutely ugly, or they are obsolete and people still want hundreds of K for them and I scratch my head going "uh, why?" (not counting of course, say, weapons used in relic weapon quests or what-not).

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you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

The problem is, it was never hard. It was a gear check and as people accumulate more and more resources in stockpiles, meeting final gear check becomes easier.



SE can make this "hard" to the point of impossible but what they need to do is add a diminishing returns system to a side quest crafting system. Like Anima crafting or something. If they have a proper diminishing return, you never meet cap. They could add it to the rebuild system as well but it needs to be rewarded with cosmetic returns after a point or it becomes a barrier.

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Well, we have established it’s technically not skill based, but however, it was definitely hard. Just a fake type of hard. RNG is really the only way they can add some sort of difficulty to it. I just don’t think you could face-to-face convince Yoshida P that RNG does not make a system difficult. Do you think you could? Honest question. He’s the one that originally put it in the game. Also, interesting idea, but RNG just seems more convenient for them to add I think.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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Posts like this really encourage me to keep replying no matter what sort of rude people bark nonsense on this thread. Trust me, I know how many ex-crafters are upset by what happened in 4.0, so it brings me joy to know it’s making them happy. So thank you for that. If you log on again on Jenova, I would like to repay you for such a sweet comment! :)

Actually, I’m quite sure they have seen this thread. Square, I mean. I truly believe if it wasn’t for this thread, Yoshida mentioning “we are working on difficult recipes” and the whole “procs are required to HQ a craft” thing would have never came out of his mouth.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

The problem is, it was never hard. It was a gear check and as people accumulate more and more resources in stockpiles, meeting final gear check becomes easier.

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Whatever it was, we enjoyed it. Some people saw it as tedious and boring and will never understand, others found it satisfying and it kept them occupied. It doesn't even have to be crazy complex or an elite skill test, just not faceroll where you make the highest crafts in the game on day 1, effortlessly, with NQ mats (which we literally did this patch). Also it doesn't need to apply to crafting overall, let the casual crafters have the current system from 1-80, we just want a few master crafts that keep the player occupied for a bit and reward patience and effort.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Anybody who disagrees with her is "hostile" to her, but yet she can look down her nose at us, and wave her epeen around, "LOOK AT ME I MAKE ONE BILLION GIL A MONTH AND I HAVE 10 RETAINERS AND I GOT MULTIPLE OMNICRAFTER ACCOUNTS, DO YOU HAVE THAT!?!??.

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Whoa, easy there. Deep breaths. It'll be ok.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

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I have no issue with their opinions. I disagree with them, but that's fine. The issue I have with them is the attitude they take with people that disagree with them. The tone of a statement is sometimes more important than the statement itself, and that person is constantly displaying a toxic attitude and talking down to people they deem as less hardcore than they are.

If they feel I've bullied them, I haven't. I've simply been calling out their garbage attitude toward people that disagree with them. It is possible to disagree with someone without telling them they don't belong in a discussion or declaring that they're lesser because they have less money. Both of which this person has done repeatedly.

Honestly I find the whole idea of hardcore crafting laughable. What is hardcore anyway? Someone who dedicates a lot of time to crafting? Someone who enjoys face slamming into RNG failure over and over again until he gets lucky?

Now, I'm a dedicated crafter myself. I gathered and crafted all my own facet gear. The only thing I bought to make the sets were a few goetia tome items. Even put off the new Ex trial for it (which I sort of regret now because all the good players have cleared and I keep getting stuck with players who can't do simple mechanics).

Crafting in FFXIV, while deeper than most MMOs, is still a secondary thing. You don't go through the MSQ by crafting, you don't beat primals by tailoring them a new suit. Crafting in this game, as with any MMO, is used for a few things: making a decent set of gear for alts, consumables, cosmetic, items etc.; saving money by making your own stuff and making money by selling crafted stuff to other people. There's never been items that only crafters could use, outside of gear glams (due to role restrictions) like engineers in WoW who were the only ones who could use the bombs they created or some of the mounts they made.

And I can understand the want to have something cool you could make and call your own that other non-crafters couldn't get. For example, they could add craftable mounts, minions or cosmetic items that require massive amounts of mats from each craft that you couldn't just buy and have to dedicate time to actually making, which you could show off and say "Yeah, I'm a super omni-crafter with a bad*** mount."

But as for actual "difficulty" in crafting, I am vehemently against the false difficulty of RNG. There's nothing engaging about a system where you can do everything right and still fail because of bad luck. It would be like people fighting Hades Ex and him only having a 50% chance of casting the circle AoEs the DPS need to eat to survive and the raid fails because RNG decided it shouldn't happen this time, despite no errors on the players part. When you fail because of things outside of your control, that isn't fun or difficult. It's just tedious.

If they wanted to change the crafting system up and actually add real skill to it that doesn't rely on a random number generator, that's fine. But forcing good crafters to fail because of bad luck isn't. Theres no sense of accomplishment there.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

But as for actual "difficulty" in crafting, I am vehemently against the false difficulty of RNG. There's nothing engaging about a system where you can do everything right and still fail because of bad luck. It would be like people fighting Hades Ex and him only having a 50% chance of casting the circle AoEs the DPS need to eat to survive and the raid fails because RNG decided it shouldn't happen this time, despite no errors on the players part. When you fail because of things outside of your control, that isn't fun or difficult. It's just tedious.

If they wanted to change the crafting system up and actually add real skill to it that doesn't rely on a random number generator, that's fine. But forcing good crafters to fail because of bad luck isn't. Theres no sense of accomplishment there.

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This. This is the point I've been trying to make the entire time. The stuff above it too, but I try to keep my quotes somewhat under control.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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If you actually read what I posted, you would realize that I said that I am fine with hardcore niche crafting things. I'm fine with that. I am not fine, however, with the girl taking such an elitist attitude with people and waving their epeen around like they're something special because they dump 40+ hours a week into the game like it's a freaking job.

They call us hostile while instantly going on the offensive when they get triggered because we don't agree with them, even when we present our differing opinions politely.

It's OK to disagree.
It's NOT okay to attack someone who disagrees with you and THEN claim that THEY got hostile.

@Ryaz

Whether you find hardcore crafting a thing or not, or whether it’s funny or not, isn’t really the point of the thread though. That’s great if you find it “laughable”. :P Same could be said about the other side of the argument.

The point is, endgame crafting is too easy, and it needs to be changed. Either that, or make Ishgard recipes difficult, and make the rewards for it worth player’s time to grind for. Like, high stat tools and gear. If it’s mere minions, mounts, or titles, I can tell you right now hardcore crafters will not do it. Like, at all.

Add RNG, or add nothing and make it too easy.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

If you actually read what I posted, you would realize that I said that I am fine with hardcore niche crafting things. I'm fine with that. I am not fine, however, with the girl taking such an elitist attitude with people and waving their epeen around like they're something special because they dump 40+ hours a week into the game like it's a freaking job.

They call us hostile while instantly going on the offensive when they get triggered because we don't agree with them, even when we present our differing opinions politely.

It's OK to disagree.
It's NOT okay to attack someone who disagrees with you and THEN claim that THEY got hostile.

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I read all the post here to this thread. it seems like when cookies mention how much she makes month at a time and how hardcore she is at game...you and callinon seem to be one that got triggered and call her elitist lol

your statement irk me. why? because. an elitist player kick you from lobby because you did one singl rotation incorrect. an elitist player also make fun of you during raid caus you forgot a mechanic during fight. elitist player doesnt bother help you. cookie say she have over 20 bil of Gil. she mention she pay large plot of housing ward to poor player. i never known any hardcore that do this ever. she is very kind

from what i see the ones who get hostile first are you and callinon. then start witch hunt at cookies. very discriminatory of hardcore player. sides. stop discriminatory hardcore people stop treating them as demon because they have fun in game. who care if that what cookies do for fun? you suppose to have fun in video game not be bored of it...what is wrong with you? if how she play game offend you and make you call her bad elitist player then stop playing game.

last time i reply on this subject. subject is childish and a bunch of bullies witch hunt one girl over her telling truth. grow thickk skin people. cookies, please ignore children here they are not worth your time. your known as hero for making very hard crafting reality, god bless people as you

by the way rng make craft hard, very sad how english forum think it not hard lol

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

by the way rng make craft hard, very sad how english forum think it not hard lol

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Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).

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FF9 Ozma = difficulty based on rng

FF12 5 judges trail = difficulty based on knowledge

The latter is what crafting difficulty should be.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).

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See, when statements like that are made, I do not mind taking people off the ignore list. I do apologize for what I said, but it’s admittedly dry frustrating when you’re trying to make a point and people repeatedly ignore what you’re trying to say.

For the most part, I agree with what you’re saying. :) But all I want, is for hardcore or competitive players to get some content.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

See, when statements like that are made, I do not mind taking people off the ignore list. I do apologize for what I said, but it’s admittedly dry frustrating when you’re trying to make a point and people repeatedly ignore what you’re trying to say.

For the most part, I agree with what you’re saying. :) But all I want, is for hardcore or competitive players to get some content.

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No one is really arguing against harder, competitive crafting content. We're just arguing that RNG based crafting doesn't make something competitive or difficult. You can have someone who fails 10 times because of forces outside his control and have someone who succeeds first time because an algorithm decided to work for him. To me, that's not competitive.

The system needs an overhaul if you want a real, fair competitive crafting endgame.

Frankly, crafting really hasn't changed too much. You still try to reach some stats tresholds to reliably craft end-game stats with NQ mats, just as before. The difference now is that the rotations are much more obvious because we have less skills to think about.

The funny thing is that this rework goes in the opposite direction Yoshida said they were aiming for. The new changes made the rotations way more rigid than before (and therefore more easily convertible to macros) and to be honest I have no idea how this can change in future updates. If by "procs" they meant good/excellent procs, even increasing the proc rates to move the focus on the decision process linked to the skills only available during those conditions and the trade-off with tricks of the trade won't probably do much, unless the new recipes are so hard that even with max stats we'll have to rely on several hasty touches. This would increase the number of steps required and make procs relevant...assuming the proc rate is high enough.

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

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And there you have it folks.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

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Except RNG does not equal challenge. It's 100% luck if you get a proc or not. You may do everything right and not get one, so you fail through no fault of your own.

Challenging would be having to deal with some sort of rhythm game and hitting a key with the right timing to maximize your touch potential (like say the monster punching mini-game in the Gold Saucer). Something that relies on player skill, not having a random number you can't control screw you over.

The only thing RNG gets you is multiple gathering trips if it doesn't favor you. It'd still be easy and people would eventually get the items they want, it would just waste more time to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

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Roulette is not a challenging game. Roulette is a brain-dead simple game. You place your bet and spin the wheel. If the wheel says you win, you win. If the wheel says you lose, you lose. You have no agency here at all.

If enough RNG is added that it becomes controlling on the success or failure of a craft, it just becomes a game of luck. If the RNG is not controlling on success or failure... it's the system we have right now where we design macros that overshoot the quality/crafting requirements for a given item such that the RNG just doesn't matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

for me the rng is the only way to make things challenging, otherwise it just takes time till someone figures out the best rotation and everyone else copies it.
the challenge is figuring out a rotation that maximizes the number of touches and so gets you the highest quality.
relying on procs is still rng by the way

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A priority based system would be challenging and not RNG based, maybe at the cost of being able to use macros.

RNG based systems can be and have been, even in 2.x, over-geared, which is what will happen if overpowered gear is added as a reward.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

I read all the post here to this thread. it seems like when cookies mention how much she makes month at a time and how hardcore she is at game...you and callinon seem to be one that got triggered and call her elitist lol

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That's because she did so in a way that she was looking down her nose like the fact she treated FFXIV like a second job made her opinion more important than anybody else's and she took this "I'M BETTER THAN YOU, YOU DON'T KNOW SQUAT!" attitude.

I was fine until she did that.

If someone is a savage raider, hey fine. If a savage raider looks at me like my $14.95 is worth less than theirs, then they can go stuff it.

Wooo boy. Finally read through this fustercluck of a thread.

Not even going to try and hold a conversation with you all but I feel like leaving a bit here.

Like a blog, if you will.

Take a fighting game for example.

The main thing a player adds to a fighting game vs a bot is RNG. A bot at the end of the day will do what it does in a situation based on programming. Once you figure out it's situational actions, you can pretty easily wreck it. Better bots have more variety but nothing on the RNG of a player. A player has situational awareness too. But can choose to act differently at any point. To a skilled player, another player is an RNG filled challenge to overcome with the tools they have.

Crafting with RNG can be skill based depending on the skills available. Using your skills in a way that rides the situation in the most optimal way can be a skill based process and is literally fighting games in a nutshell.

And before someone says something ignorant like, "Reaction time is the main part of fighting games." Every pro fighting gamer will tell you the prediction based on situation in neutral is the key factor. A whiff punish for example is not a reaction most times. It's baited out with movement.

Saying, "RNG is not difficulty in crafting," or, "You can't have skill in a numbers game," is at best a half truth. And at the end of the day, even raids are a numbers game. If Boss HP - (Dps*enrage timer in seconds) > 0 you lose. Not meeting the dps and failing at 1-5%? Pad stats with gear/use your toolkit better/hope your party gets more fire 3 procs (as an example) assuming everyone was optimal already. And yes, if you're doing well or your gear is at a certain point then it makes your procs less important. But now we come back to crafting. And, oh look, that's basically what 2.0-3.0 crafting was.

You rode the RNG to victory or geared up and still rode it but at a better curve. Every craft was like a puzzle I wanted to clear. Every time my procs fucked me over at 18% efficiency, I had a long hard look at my skills and remaining cp. If I was SKILLED with my understanding and manipulation of the situation, I might still pull out a 90-100%. And that felt fantastic to achieve.

No macro could save you. No guide could walk you through that specific moment in your craft. It's just you, your understanding of your skills, and how much you really didn't want it to NQ. No it's not that hard. But neither is not standing where you shouldn't in a fight honestly.

Post limit.

I don't care about this hardcore vs casual bs you all keep whining about. But RNG based crafting if done correctly is a viable skill based process that should not be fear-mongered just because you don't want to ever fail because of bad luck you might not be able to overcome to the point of 100% efficiency.

Even if RNG gave you no procs at all you could get maybe 60-80% on the hardest crafts back in the day. Pretty good for what amounts to a 2min rotation that had no chance for you to apply any deeper understanding. You failed, you got mats, and tried again. Garuntee you still progressed faster than the raiders you all in this boat love to compare with. Go ask them how often they wipe per clear on current content before they pad their gear to cover for issues. Or how long it takes for them to put together a party that could get the clear. Or how much it sucks to do everything right but your party screw you from your clear.

This argument is ridiculous at it's core.

I have similar feelings.

But first, I would like to note that I completely agree with the points people have made about RNGs negative aspects in regard to crafting. Mainly:
- Requiring a good/ex at the appropriate times to ensure a successful craft does not equate to challenge, or skill.
- longer rotations (where rng has a chance to balance out) are tedious

To simplify things: At its core, crafting(in ff14) was a gambling mini game where RNG could be mitigated by gear and starting quality.
That has clearly changed over the years, and in some ways that is probably a good thing, but it has some down sides too.

It seems to me that the designers are in the situation where they are trying to figure out what kind of system crafting should be. Without speculating to what each system would look like, here are my thoughts as a systems designer:
- Challenging math mini-game tend to be, well, 'mathy'; likely push the majority of crafters to look up the answers. Running sims and making your own macros can be enjoyable to some, but in the end there are very few best answers.
- Going back to old way of praying for a Ing+GS -> good/ex bb would not be welcome. People's dislike of this kind of rng is valid.
- Maybe a softening of RNG is the answer, more frequent variance in condition, but not as extreme. But the challenge there is preventing the rotation from dragging out. Would not be a simple fix.
- perhaps an entirely new type of system. anything could go here, but personally I wouldn't like to see any kind of twitch game play. Leave that to combat.

RNG can be a good thing, just needs to be done in such a way that folks don't feel they are at the mercy of it.

edit
one note in regard to marcos.

Mass crafting without macros is not a world I wish to see.
However, I personally, I think being able to hq the facet stuff 100%nq mats with a macro using 5.0 gear is a touch silly. I don't think it would be the end of the world if some hq mats were needed to macro successfully with progressively more required as gear is less optimal.

/edit

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

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He said 5.2 was bringing more changes to crafting. Never said 5.11 was bringing them...

"This patch also sees the beginning of the overhaul to crafting and gathering, with further updates planned for Patch 5.2." Straight from the 5.1 patch notes..

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

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And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

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I’m not going to arbitrarily “nerf” myself just because you say so, lol. Come on, that’s silly. It goes without saying that it should be hard even with max melds. Anyways, like I said, 5.2 is really the last straw.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

He said 5.2 was bringing more changes to crafting. Never said 5.11 was bringing them...

"This patch also sees the beginning of the overhaul to crafting and gathering, with further updates planned for Patch 5.2." Straight from the 5.1 patch notes..

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I know. Just figured I would post a kind reminder.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I’m not going to arbitrarily “nerf” myself just because you say so, lol. Come on, that’s silly.

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Why would you, Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about because lets be real. You don't want it to be harder, you want to brag about how you made it easy because you are all alpha crafter and stuff. I'm done with you now.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

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That's actually impossible. A max IQ 2000 control Great strides Excellent Brygots is almost 30000 quality with no Inno/Ingen and something like 70k with. The collectibles have a 40k bar. I've done a lot of manual crafting and know the output of Brygots very well.

Don't make things up to prove your point.

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Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

The main thing a player adds to a fighting game vs a bot is RNG.

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Do you... do you honestly think fighting game players choose their actions randomly? I mean... seriously?