Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

And yet the culmination of all of this back and forth is still the pro-tank DPS side of the 'debate' literally doing the thing that pages ago we largely argued did not occur - dismissing someone based purely on their fflogs.

I have argued for parsers, for healer DPS, for a general sense of responsibility that every member of every party should have about any content they run. People have called me an elitist, they've told me to 'get off my high horse' and 'casual players matter too!' literally since I joined this forum.

I have been accused of being the kind of person who would take someone's fflogs and use it to justify public disrespect despite never doing anything like that. I argued back that no one was really that low and that my 'opponents' were exagerating their claims for how scummy the playerbase could be about using these tools to enforce or support their standards.

Now I have to go and eat my words because I guess I'm wrong, this sort of bs does happen. Super disappointed right now, also kind of ashamed.

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I think mostly everyone can largely agree that randomly bringing up someone's FFLogs is uncalled for unless it was brought to attention prior (by the person themselves). Someone's opinion shouldn't be made lesser just because "oh I happened to look at your logs," especially when that person did not claim to be the best at their class and/or the game, or mention their logs at all. Even if FFlogs was somehow officially supported, I just feel like it's a weak and/or an argument that's a bit too personal, if not a bit underhanded. When comparing it to one's own logs, it just sounds like flat out bragging or attempts to undermine someone else. I have already said in this thread in the past that FFlogs is mostly just used as something to inflate egos, or more appropriately, a ****-measuring tool. So of course it happens, just like it happens with parsers. It just doesn't happen in volume.

I was mostly defending that while they were rude in their stance, Kaldea did not say the post was meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I was mostly defending that while they were rude in their stance, Kaldea did not say the post was meaningless.

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While I agree some people do use FFLogs as e-peen status, (which I do with friends for fun) which is only between me and them and not the randoms we run with. I think while this person was blunt and mentioned someones log, I don't think the person didn't post it just to say ''hey look at me I'm better''.
There are serval reasons why someones log is bad; group comp, uptime as melee (which is a tanks job as well, to keep the boss to melee as much as possible) ilvl etc. While that been said, there is only so much you can output and do while having all of that, the real thing you need is skill. There are PLENTY of people here, that really talks like they KNOW how to play. I'm not going on a witch hunt on their logs, I don't need to because I already disagree with their statements and others to do. The worse part is many new players or current ones often think what they say is correct. I was in a roulette yesterday, where a healer used medica 2 when there was absoluttely no aoe. I would think, hey they did it to have an extra regen on tank, so they could dps. Did they? Nope. I didn't even ask them to, not my business if they wanted or felt comfy enough to do so. However, I asked politely why medica 2 was used and the group said, it's because it's good healing...While I agree it does give you good heals, it's bad to spam it when there is no aoe around. Just because you are a healer, doesn't mean your job is to spam heal. You have to controll your spells and output offensive spells too.

To make it short, some people here did mention their own logs, some doesn't, and those who don't, nobody should mention their logs, however if someone talks like they know how to play, someone will eventually look at their logs and compare to lets say their own, just to state what the other person is doing wrong or not. As much as it sounds like ''e-peen'', some people DO talk too much and can't even backup why it's good.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

A
You did almost 1/3 the DPS of your co-tank in O1S today. I did almost 30% MORE DPS than you do now when I was ilvl 298 doing Lakshmi EX. I'd be curious what ilvl you are.
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I was curious and had to look, but he died 1 time as well, so you have to count that too.

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Originally Posted by Elspath

Sounds like the same group of people that expected Healers to DPS because.... of reasons?

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and you never loose hate then a tank has done theyre job, to hell with those thinking anything. Especially dpsers who will never tank because they don't get theyre numbers high -laughs-

I am a full time Main tank and Healer. I will block anyone that starts complaining saying im not doing enough dps on either. They can go find another group and go back waiting in there long ass Queue

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Aside from the spelling mistakes which I fixed I want to put this post in my signature, as a fellow tank main, lol. the primary job of a tank is tanking. DPS is a bonus. Yes even in raids.

Also one thing I noticed with FF logs is unless you've done TONS and TONS of ex primals and savage raids your numbers are going to be irrelevant and useless as they seem to have to be manually uploaded by people, which means the sample size will be too small for usage.

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

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Literally the only people that use parsers to harass are the “tryhards”. Real Savage raiders don’t care about dungeon parses. A parser is an invaluable tool that I have used to help me personally grow, as well as help other groups, including my old static, progress through harder content by using the in-depth analysis that FFLogs provides. Don’t blame the tool just because a few twats decide to misuse it; it is incredibly invaluable to personal and group progression.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Literally the only people that use parsers to harass are the “tryhards”. Real Savage raiders don’t care about dungeon parses. A parser is an invaluable tool that I have used to help me personally grow, as well as help other groups, including my old static, progress through harder content by using the in-depth analysis that FFLogs provides. Don’t blame the tool just because a few twats decide to misuse it; it is incredibly invaluable to personal and group progression.

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Yeah a parser is fine and even desired by many people as a personal improvement tool, but that's about the limit for how it should be used.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

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So you do care?

And I couldn't care less about your opinion that a tool should be disallowed because it's possible to misuse it.

Just thinking... if someone other uploads my data on fflogs without my consent, isn't he violating my privacy?

I can upload my data, but other's names must be anonymous and not taken in logs. Thus, fflogs must get from the log only data from characters that have fflogs account and discard (or set anonymous) everything else.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Just thinking... if someone other uploads my data on fflogs without my consent, isn't he violating my privacy?

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Not because they're uploading them from public battle logs having been in the same party with you. It's like uploading a screenshot from your party chat.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Just thinking... if someone other uploads my data on fflogs without my consent, isn't he violating my privacy?

I can upload my data, but other's names must be anonymous and not taken in logs. Thus, fflogs must get from the log only data from characters that have fflogs account and discard (or set anonymous) everything else.

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No? It's publicly available information even without parsers and FFLogs. Anyone in your groups or even remotely close to you in the game cans see the data that's aggregated by parsers and uploaded to FFLogs.

I was honestly kind of annoyed to realize that my performance was being unknowingly logged by people for the longest time.

I would've blocked my logs a lot sooner had I known, because you should judging people by how they're performing now, not in the past. Unfortunately, that elitist I mentioned earlier didn't seem to grasp that, because I sure as heck wasn't doing "bottom percentile" DPS on that OS4.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I was honestly kind of annoyed to realize that my performance was being unknowingly logged by people for the longest time.

I would've blocked my logs a lot sooner had I known, because you should judging people by how they're performing now, not in the past. Unfortunately, that elitist I mentioned earlier didn't seem to grasp that, because I sure as heck wasn't doing "bottom percentile" DPS on that OS4.

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I'm having a hard time understanding what's the issue of having your logs up. If it's really old data and you have improved a lot since then, you can point that out to a person commenting on those low numbers (or, if they're a person who's being very rude about it, at leat I wouldn't want to be in the same party with them in the first place). Even better, you can ask for people you're currently running with if someone could upload your numbers so that logs would only be showing the current situation. When someone searches your name, it'll first only show your highest rank on every floor.

I'm just thinking this from my own perspective. If I would only have a few recorded kills and all of them would be super low, I would first start reflecting on if that's really how my performance currently is. If not, I'd ask for my current groups to upload my current parses, and those old bad ones would be automatically hidden. If the old logs would reflect my current performance accurately, I would work on improving myself in some practice groups and then ask for someone to upload logs from my kills after that.

I've also only once seen a person kicked from an OS4 party based on their logs (but even that wasn't purely on logs but in combination with a parse from that day, which clearly showed that person was unable to carry their own weight in that fight). There are party finders that demand high performance, and those are likely to check your logs, but why would you join those in the first place if you're not the type of a player who's invested in their performance and has the public data to back that up... Seriously, I'm just confused about why this would be an issue.

Because realistically speaking, even people who do fine on the daily can have bad runs. And unless you are completely clueless in all things, you would be able to tell a good run from a bad one. Did you perform your opener correctly? Hitting your rotations as needed? Get hit by the things you could dodge? Subtle differences will show where you can improve your uptime and use what and when depending on the flow and mechanics, but you should already be able to identify any drastic difference in your own performance then and there. You don't need some deep introspective after the fact.

Unless you're taking it on yourself to upload your own performance, which some can't, then you're at the whims of others to do so; and not everyone else does it either. And you shouldn't have to be super paranoid about your parses; always asking someone to upload every run, just so some rando sees you're not actually shit, you just had a crappy day.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Because realistically speaking, even people who do fine on the daily can have bad runs.

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Of course! So if you're doing fine on most of your runs, and you're actively running this content every week, why not just ask for someone to upload the logs so you can get a decent % for yourself and be done with it? :) Logs are being uploaded so often it shouldn't take many runs to find someone to do that. And you only need that 1 good run to up the rank people see when they check your stats. I just don't see why this would be such a big, negative issue for some pople (and I doubt it's that for many people, as I've never personally seen or heard anyone kicked from party because of logs apart from that one exception - and then it was 100% justified).

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Originally Posted by Taika

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Unless they're aware of the logs, and not everyone is even if they are aware of parsing, they'll never know to ask and from there it's something they can't "buffer" with asking someone to upload good runs until the damage is already done and either they learn about the logs too late or are challenged for them. From that point they now have to work out of the negative because ill fortune saw fit to have only their two really bad runs recorded and not a majority of their decent-good runs, and now it's a game of not just proving your worth, but now proving you're not shit. And most folks aren't so open-minded to give leeway to someone with shown bad records unless there is evidence that they have run more times than logged.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Unless they're aware of the logs, and not everyone is even if they are aware of parsing, they'll never know to ask and from there it's something they can't "buffer" with asking someone to upload good runs until the damage is already done and either they learn about the logs too late or are challenged for them.

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If they aren't aware of the logs, why should they care about them? Obviously they're not then excluded from the runs because of their logs either.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

From that point they now have to work out of the negative because ill fortune saw fit to have only their two really bad runs recorded and not a majority of their decent-good runs, and now it's a game of not just proving your worth, but now proving you're not shit. And most folks aren't so open-minded to give leeway to someone with shown bad records unless there is evidence that they have run more times than logged.

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If a person is actively running Savage, what are the chances that (1) only their really bad runs get uploaded and (2) they're actually removed from parties because of those logs? Do you know of such incidents? Is there anyone in this thread, for example, who knows for certain (has seen parses) that they're generally doing much better than their super low logs show, and that they have been removed from groups because of this? It just seems so unlikely to me that a person would have this kind of terrible luck. And even if they would, like I said, it would be quite easy to fix simply by running the content and asking someone to upload the runs when the group is about to start.

So, for a scenario that seems to be really unlikely in the first place, and one that can easily fixed for a person who would happen to care about it, this seems like case of much noise (and forum drama) for nothing.

Because even if they aren't interested, they are still affected by it as their progress is recorded with or without their knowing or consent, for others to see and judge whether the information provided is thorough or not.

Savage isn't the only thing recorded. The other content of interest and concern are EX primals, which people can get just as rustled about. It's not likely that you'll deal in a Savage run without it being logged, but then again, a large chunk of the playerbase can't even run parses. Besides that point, it's no guarantee that they are better than what the logs will show, but there shouldn't be the situation of questioning the individual from the start using information that may or may not be whole.

A few in this thread have presented cases of such harassment or lockout, and of course without the necessary evidence we don't know for certain, but that too is a situation that is impeded by the incomplete information relied on from the logs. The only thing that would ever clear the issue entirely is if SE were to decide to finally connect with an open system that records everything. Which, honestly, really needs to happen.

lol and people say the pvp community is toxic and that is why they removed our chat. RIP

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

To make it short, some people here did mention their own logs, some doesn't, and those who don't, nobody should mention their logs, however if someone talks like they know how to play, someone will eventually look at their logs and compare to lets say their own, just to state what the other person is doing wrong or not. As much as it sounds like ''e-peen'', some people DO talk too much and can't even backup why it's good.

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Yeah, in this case though, the post being replied to was highly opinionated and made that incredibly aware. There are lots of people who indeed do talk on the forums as if they know it all, and I myself have checked their past history. I just feel saying "you did less damage than your co tank, and less damage than me in another log while I had a really low ilvl, what's your ilvl? your post should be taken with a grain of salt" is a bit too back handed for me to really defend. The original post never intended that their mindset was correct or "right," just how they viewed it. There are plenty of ways to correct someone on their mindset or even address they do not understand their class fundamentals, and that wasn't one of them. It wasn't even proper correction or criticism at all. Just flat out addressing that someone performed worse. So while I agree with you, this definitely was not that case. Also, I know they weren't replying just to brag, I'm just saying that it could sound that way.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away.

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4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Parsers are incredibly helpful for statics who wish to overall talk about improvement if it is needed to clear the content.

As for me personally I want to be able to see how I can improve and it is about me, not anyone else. I don't care about what others are doing I only care about my contribution and improving myself.

Why should we lose this tool over a possibly very very small % of people who abuse it? I mean would you ban all rulers from a high school just because one student used it to hit another student in the face? I doubt it...the kid would get reported and suspended and if it kept happening then eventually expelled. You get rid of the person abusing the tool, not the tool itself.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Also, I know they weren't replying just to brag, I'm just saying that it could sound that way.

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Yes, they could word themselves different, that I agree on. I'm all up for people playing or trying better each time. I can't really count how many times you could do a fight with just 7 people because the last one is doing so low, it barely does a margin. I mean I'm not expecting full amazing play, but I expect somewhat decent play. Why does people expect me to play great when they can't even do it themselves.

FFLogs should be opt-in, not opt-out. Nobody should have access without concent. For people using it for personal improvement, great. You only need your stats for that.

However, that won't help much. In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst. You could ask FFLogs to only store the data of the person uploading, but then you lose the ability to compare and replay, rendering it useless anyway.

So, basically, there is no middle ground. Just a matter of keeping things as-is, or scrapping FFLogs outright. Comes down to a question of whether it does more harm or good.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst.

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If someone assumes the worst over it and doesn't even give you a chance then why would you want to play with someone like that anyway? Seems to me they would be doing you a favour.

This whole thread about FFLogs being a threat is funny enough but you know it's only taken seriously in a Savage/Ultimate context right? If all you do are your Alliance raids, EX roulettes, EX primals, you got nothing to worry about really. I wonder if all the animosity towards it stems from people actually knowing they could do more but make no effort to actually do more. So they get paranoid and blame logs on fights nobody even care about in a serious environment.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

However, that won't help much. In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst. You could ask FFLogs to only store the data of the person uploading, but then you lose the ability to compare and replay, rendering it useless anyway.

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This wouldn't change anything except leading to people getting kicked after a few runs since now the only way to tell would be bringing them along and parsing. No matter what solution you attempt, you cannot force people to play with others. Better players don't necessarily want to play with people several steps below their skill level, and that is entirely within their prerogative.

You know what else would help? Having some accountability. Time and again I see people whine over how detriment and "toxic" FFlogs are; that the mere idea someone is able to objective analysis your performance when in a group setting is awful. What if, you got better? There will always be some asshat who loses their mind or a simple mistake or two but actually good players don't care nearly to the extent their presumed to. They do care about having their time wasted.

I have a feeling people misread my last post. I was simply pointing out that there is nothing that could be changed about FFLogs, that the arguement should simply be does it do more harm then good. I quite intentionally gave no opinion on that, yet it seems some people still rushed to judgement as if I did.

After reading through this I asked a bunch of friends and no one has ever been in parties where people were kicked because of parsing. The closest I have seen is in a dungeon a dps was complaining about how slow it was and that the other dps was crap. I was the tank I told them to stop and then gave them both advice on rotation. The non-complaining dps was doing more damage even before the advice. From my experience all this fear seems unwarranted sure it sometimes happens. I have been playing since Titan Ex was current, I raid and pug often savages and extremes. The only time I hear about parser abuse is on the forum. If it is so uncommon deal with it then and there, this is no different than any abuse.If you want to use FFlogs to better yourself it is there to be used. That is how I improve, I study better players rotations and learn from them. I do it for personal improvement not to show off to other people in my community or belittle anyone.

TLDR: Don't worry so much about if someone is parsing or if you are being judged on said parses. Most people don't care they are focusing on improving themselves.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

TLDR: Don't worry so much about if someone is parsing or if you are being judged on said parses. Most people don't care they are focusing on improving themselves.

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Exactly. It's like the people on this thread have created some kind of a parser/FFlogs boogeyman that's out there to kick people from groups and preventing them from joining them in the first place, but in reality it's extremely rare that happens.

Today I actually used FFlogs when we were trying to get our last FC member his OS4 clear. He had been trying it for the whole weekend and 8 hours only today, so we decided to skip Ultimate and use our event time to help him instead. We were only missing 2 people so whenever someone joined, I checked their logs and also asked them how experienced they were with the fight. On the first round we didn't exclude anyone (although we ended up kicking a person for killing us 3 or 4 times in GCO with allagan field). On second round, we had a DD join and when I checked them, I noticed they only had 1 kill for each OS1-OS3, really low rank in all. So I asked how experienced they were with the fight, if there was a reason they had so few kills, and if they had a clue about their normal DPS in the fight. Instead of answering my questions, the guy said "sorry, I gtg, something came up irl". Now it may be that they weren't really up for the fight and decided to back away when they were asked about it. Or it may be they felt like I had no right checking him and wanted to leave because of that. Either way, I doubt we would have made a good match with them. And after my filtering, we ended up getting 2 great people and beat the fight on the 2nd try, so it seemed to pay off...

In general, for situations like these, when you're trying to clear a somewhat difficult fight where you need high enough performance from every single party member, FFlogs can be really helpful. Of course I don't think it's a good idea to kick someone based on their logs without talking to them, so if you notice someone joining and they seem to have a very low performance history from multiple fights and kills, you can ask them if there's a reason for that, and if they believe they can meet the requirements of the fight well enough now. And then again, if you can see that the person has been able to clear the fight successfully without dying once in the past, even if their DPS has been a bit low, that itself is a good enough recommendation for me. I just wish people wouldn't be so spooked about it - after all, the numbers and ratings aren't based on anything but your objective performance at some point, and you can always improve them. And also, it's important to remember that people are people and not numbers - when looking at a person's ratings, also talk to them and give them a chance if they truly believe they can do what you're asking.

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Originally Posted by Miste

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

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Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.


Also if you guys see this you know I love you. :smirk:

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

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While the experiences are all going to be anecdotal since no one has actually done any hard research that parsers increase toxic behavior, I have been in groups with some really subpar players (Ex primals and Savage; i.e., content where parsers and parsing actually matter), and I know there are more people than me parsing in there...yet no one ever says anything about them unless it’s something like a tank failing to hold hate, or a healer failing to heal, which are both things that you don’t need a parser to see. The most anyone says is after the bad player leaves, and it’s usually something like “Good riddance; they kept dying” or “Well, that works. They were only pulling 900~1,000 DPS as a BLM anyways”. Never have I seen people actively stand there and harass/berate a player to their face.

The “parser harassment” really does not occur as much as people like to claim it does, even to the “bad players”—the times it does occur, I feel like people blow them out of proportion, and start saying things like “I was harassed once in Expert Roulette over numbers, so parsers are bad and all they do is make people harass everyone all the time, and people that parse all need to be banned”.

I’ve seen once instance with a person saying something negative about an individual’s DPS numbers, and they weren’t doing so hot themselves. It happened in a Zurvan Ex bird farm (which, that fight already brought out the worst in everyone so), and a MCH was harassing a SMN about “missing 20 times” and “having crappy DPS”. And really, the only reason the individual’s numbers were bad was because they were lacking accuracy for the fight; other than that, their rotation was fine (according to my friend who was also there, and who was a SMN main). They certainly did more than a lot of other SMNs I had encountered in Heavensward (by this, I mean that they actually helped the healers raise dead players).

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad

Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

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I maybe wasn't clear enough but I do tons of DF and PF content with randoms. I have seen some very bad players and I've seen some epic scale bad players.... and yet I still haven't seen this parser abuse yet in 4 years. I understand that me being a raider myself I am unlikely to come across people with issues with my contribution level, but I am in groups with randoms enough where I think I would have seen something by now even if said abuse was not directed at me personally.

Seems to cast doubt on it being a frequent occurrence in-game. All the times I've seen people kick other players from PF groups was due to said player repeatedly failing the same mechanics over and over in a group where the PF required those mechanics already be learned. I have not seen anyone kicked for parse numbers so far.

In DF almost all the kicks I have seen that were not for AFK/Offline were due to trolling and/or verbal abuse against fellow party members.

So yes I have seen people get upset at others for failing mechanics and/or wiping the group, but none of those reasons are parser related since it is easy to see when someone dies often, fails mechanics, or wipes the group. General role failure as well...you don't need a parser to see if a tank isn't keeping hate, getting one shot by tank buster because no mitigation, or a healer that isn't healing. These reasons are the most frequent causes of disputes in my experience over the 4 years of doing content.

Just got on fflogs and hide your character.. problem solved...

It still baffles me that the idea of being held accountable for your performance is so terrifying of an idea to this community.

Like, yeah, people can get really toxic over it, but it's no worse than the raw animosity directed towards those who have higher performance standards. If you want people to improve, you're shot down, insulted, or accused of being an elitist (the irony of someone like me saying this is not lost on me, for the record). If you're bad and want to stay bad, you're told that it's okay and put on a pedestal of mediocrity.

I never actually tell people they're bad based off of parse numbers but I certainly believe that it's my right to. It's your right to spend your sub money on being bad, but it should also be my right to spend my sub money on telling you that you're bad. If you get upset when people like me say that you're bad, then tough shit. You don't pay my sub.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I never actually tell people they're bad based off of parse numbers but I certainly believe that it's my right to. It's your right to spend your sub money on being bad, but it should also be my right to spend my sub money on telling you that you're bad. If you get upset when people like me say that you're bad, then tough shit. You don't pay my sub.

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Wouldn't that most likely end up being harassment or abuse which your sub does not entitle you to do

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Wouldn't that most likely end up being harassment or abuse which your sub does not entitle you to do

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Telling someone that theyre doing poorly isn't harassment.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Telling someone that theyre doing poorly isn't harassment.

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The way that was worded did not give the impression they had the intention of saying it in a constructive way

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Wouldn't that most likely end up being harassment or abuse which your sub does not entitle you to do

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I mean if you're an ass about it yeah but telling someone to improve their performance isn't harassment by any metric, nor is offering them an ultimatum if they don't improve.

I'm not the kind of person that says feelings don't matter- just the opposite, actually- but I'm just as stressed out by someone performing badly and refusing to improve as you* are by being told you're bad. And in a conflict between someone who wants others to improve and someone who outright refuses to, I'd side with the former almost every time unless they were wrong or their tone was so excessively confrontational that they drive away people who do want to improve.

The feelings of good players are just as important as the feelings of bad players. One side being easier to take pity on and feel bad for doesn't mean it inherently has the moral high-ground.

There's the issue of bad players critiquing the performance of other players and giving bad advice, sure, but I think an in-game parser would drastically reduce the number of people who are like that.

*Not you as in yourself, you as in a general term referring to bad players. I'm not making any accusations.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

The way that was worded did not give the impression they had the intention of saying it in a constructive way

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Oh no, I'd definitely be polite and courteous about it. I just want everyone to improve, and I realize that being a dickhead about it has the opposite effect. If I call out a bad player for being bad, it's not me trying to put them down to feel better about myself or just vent my frustrations. I legitimately want everyone to get better at the game and feel a sense of accomplishment about their own personal performance.

But even being a dickhead about it can possibly convince someone to re-examine their own playstyle and habits, especially if they're not coddled for being bad.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Just got on fflogs and hide your character.. problem solved...

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Ok, I have no real dog in the pro/anti parser argument. But can I just say, it is very odd that you have to do this. You shouldn't have to sign into their site to opt out, you should sign into their site to opt in. I don't like the idea of data about me and my performances, being collected without my consent or knowledge. It is unsettling and creepy! I really think that they should switch over to an opt in model rather then collecting data without consent or even someone's knowledge that they are effectively being recorded in someway. I think that would make people a little less antsy about parsers and fflogs.

I just assume everyone sucks until they prove otherwise... therefore no salt when things don't go perfect... y'all really need to calm down... it's just a game...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

therefore no salt when things don't go perfect...

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Am i allowed to be salty if i hit enrage on V1S and the boss is still at 50% Health? :(