Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Speak for ya'll selves, I still get nervous having to heal in content, just because of the nature of healing alone. I think the issue they see if healers get more damage spells for rotations then healers in this game would start to focus more on DPS'ing rather than healing which just....negates the purpose of having a healer in the holy trinity the system was made for. I think we've grown too complacent with the idea that "healers are a dps" job when its in their job description to heal not to deal damage.

This is an extremely BASED opinion on my part though because I'm a controller user andy and having to add more buttons for full on damage rotations alongside your meaty healer toolkit will just overload the cross-bar hotbar setup into a complicated mess.

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Majority those heals are rarely/never used, this is the issue. The game design literally can't support an actual healing role as it is. If I didn't cast damage spells, I'd border on triggering the AFK flag on a lot of content.

For you guys with anxiety, you know that healing in end game is literally responding to damage with a couple of AoE instants and spamming one nuke with 90% of your GCD window, right? It would just have to play itself to get easier, there's just no other way to make it any more simple to execute.

Only thing that changes between healers are small re-shuffles of filler auto healing (Embrace, Kardia, Regen, etc.) and how part of your damage is distributed (Cards, Buffs, Nukes, etc.). I dunno why Yoshi P can't just courage up and have this conversation. We just want to heal or to do damage or have anything to press, good lord how is this design acceptable in any game? One renamed DPS key somehow justifies an entire role consisting of four job?

I've started to actually pick my EX farming healer of the moment by how sick I am of hearing the other healer nukes, because that's the most significant difference between the four.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s the fact about engagement. Healers don’t feel engaging in any content, his solution is to do Ultimate then. He’s basically admitting that all the other forms of content aren’t engaging for healers, instead of addressing the problem itself, he’s scapegoating, as he always does.

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Also there’s one small issue with this….


Ultimates at 90 aren’t in the game yet! So he’s scapegoating to content that doesn’t even exist, while basically saying Panda1-4s are beta versions of savage fights to make it easier than they’ll make actual savage fights hard? This game is like 8+ years old why do we need to ease into the 13th tier of savage trials? This accessibility agenda is going way over his head and it’ll kill the game if he continues to disregard the games threat

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Also there’s one small issue with this….


Ultimates at 90 aren’t in the game yet! So he’s scapegoating to content that doesn’t even exist, while basically saying Panda1-4s are beta versions of savage fights to make it easier than they’ll make actual savage fights hard? This game is like 8+ years old why do we need to ease into the 13th tier of savage trials? This accessibility agenda is going way over his head and it’ll kill the game if he continues to disregard the games threat

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The real problem is that healing in ultimate isn't any more engaging than in the rest of the game. Ultimate fights just have harder mechanics and maybe one phase with tighter healing requirements than usual. It's still 70% 1-1-1-1-2

The bottleneck isn't the healing.

FF14's raiding is just a puzzle to be figured out as a group. After that, it gravely lacks in complexity. A big part of that is because of the way healers are designed. Spot healing is entirely tied to cooldowns, AoE healing requires negative IQ and teamwork, there's no resource building, cooldown management is super stale due to the way fights are designed to always do the exact same thing at the exact same time.

In other words, FF14 is difficult blind. Once you've mapped out the fight, the challenge is gone. Actual execution - especially as healer - is incredibly simple, even in Ultimate.

If you want more engaging content as a healer, go play WoW, as it does actually require more engaging healing in addition to a (slightly) more engaging dps rotation. Or raid in FF14 with people who get hit by avoidable damage in content where it doesn't just outright kill you. Though most of it is designed so that healers can't actually make up for people's mistakes, due to the nature of Vulnerability - probably one of the worst design choices ever. Thankfully one they seem to steer away from in favor of Damage Down lately, so healers CAN make up for mistakes.. up until hitting enrage, anyhow.

I mean the entire game is built on trial and error with some arbitrary number checks built in.

I think this would be fine if they didn't expect you to run the same content 100+ times to deal with the antiquated loot system.

I'm having way more fun playing support in Lost Ark than in FF14 :D

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I'm having way more fun playing support in Lost Ark than in FF14 :D

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Off topic but lost ark looks like League of legends crossed with Dynasty warriors with none of the Catharsis.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Off topic but lost ark looks like League of legends crossed with Dynasty warriors with none of the Catharsis.

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The character creation is so nice its honestly night and day to 14. Love the aesthetics personally

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Yoshida's explanation was bad then and is still bad now. Basically he identified the problem that AST & SCH like each other too much and instead of bringing WHM up to their level he simply nerfed them down to WHM level. And the problem still persists, WHM hasn't been meta since early HW(?)

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DPS wise, all the healers were brought DOWN to the AST level in Stormblood and I couldn't think of an Astrologian who would have wished that on their worst enemy.

AST dps had fewer buttons because their actions per minute were higher due to having the card system to manage.

Now if WHM/SCH had some buffs / debuffs to throw out every 30s in the form of Faith or Libra, then the DPS culling might have been worth it, but IMHO it just made everything braindead.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

FF14's raiding is just a puzzle to be figured out as a group. After that, it gravely lacks in complexity. A big part of that is because of the way healers are designed. Spot healing is entirely tied to cooldowns, AoE healing requires negative IQ and teamwork, there's no resource building, cooldown management is super stale due to the way fights are designed to always do the exact same thing at the exact same time.

In other words, FF14 is difficult blind. Once you've mapped out the fight, the challenge is gone. Actual execution - especially as healer - is incredibly simple, even in Ultimate.

If you want more engaging content as a healer, go play WoW, as it does actually require more engaging healing in addition to a (slightly) more engaging dps rotation. Or raid in FF14 with people who get hit by avoidable damage in content where it doesn't just outright kill you. Though most of it is designed so that healers can't actually make up for people's mistakes, due to the nature of Vulnerability - probably one of the worst design choices ever. Thankfully one they seem to steer away from in favor of Damage Down lately, so healers CAN make up for mistakes.. up until hitting enrage, anyhow.

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Except neither DPS nor Tanks suffer from this problem nearly to the same extent. Their gameplay remains engaging whereas Healers are told to heal nonexistent damage and the dev team pats themselves on the back. That's the issue people continuously seem to ignore. We're aware once you've solved Savage or Ultimate, the sequence of events get easier to heal due to the scripted nature of encounter design. Hence why we want meaningful gameplay additions in the form of DPS abilities. I shouldn't have to be the resident raid babysitter for my role not to be boring AF. That's simply poor and lazy design.

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Originally Posted by Ravor

The status of healer right now is more like an assurance more than a neccessity, yes you can finish most content without healer, but having them around will make more peaceful state of mind and faster the content to be finished since tank and dps can focus more doing dpsing rather than have to do mitigation or self heal, i use dps or tank if i want to be so focus on content and i use healer to be more relaxed, being healer i can see the mechanic easier since all my rotation is only 1 button most of the time

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? My expert runs with 3 dps are significantly faster. Mitigation and healing is all weaved in, it's hardly an issue to press it when you know the name of a raidwide. You don't stop your rotation for it.

Tbh. I feel they should remove lucid dreaming and all mana regen abilities or spells and make a 1-3 combo that regenerates mana.
People dying because the healer was doing a damage spell was never the fault of the damage spell, it was the healer.

Just me though.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Tbh. I feel they should remove lucid dreaming and all mana regen abilities or spells and make a 1-3 combo that regenerates mana.
People dying because the healer was doing a damage spell was never the fault of the damage spell, it was the healer.

Just me though.

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I'm all for brainstorming, however I do hope that this never see the light of day.

Lucid is a good button, I think. Has weight and consequence to it but without frustration, I wouldn't want it removed or dumbed down.

If we want any streamlining, then just do it with more DPS smart heals or DPS that opens up instant heals or something. If healing on the GCD is going to be largely pretend, just get rid of it already. Lets not kick this can down the street until 9.0

This is the problem, most of us are willing to accept many solutions but the one told to us across the last two live letters was telling us that healers shouldn't have to DPS or heal. Gee, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Tbh. I feel they should remove lucid dreaming and all mana regen abilities or spells and make a 1-3 combo that regenerates mana.
People dying because the healer was doing a damage spell was never the fault of the damage spell, it was the healer.

Just me though.

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I think this would be a good gimmick for one of the healers. Although we kind of already have it with Sage's OGCD Addersgall heals.

Still, giving some of the healers combo tricks is imo a good direction to take things. Make it different for each of them:

* Give AST a 1-2-3 proc, where 2 has a 50 percent chance of proccing from 1, and 3 a 50 percent from 2. Fits with their gambler aesthetic.
* Give SGE a 1-2 ST combo, where the 2 creates an addersting. Also have a ST addersting ability so we have the option to ST or AoE addersting.
* Give SCH a branching 1-2 ST combo, where one 2 has one status effect, and one 2 has another. Encourage them to juggle statuses on enemies kind of like SAM juggles buffs.
* And then WHM could have something more straightforward, I really don't care what. Maybe just a straight up 1-2 ST and 1-2 AoE.

There we go. AST gets two new abilities (2, 3 procs). SGE gets two new abilities (2, and ST addersting). SCH gets two new abilities (two branching 2s). WHM gets two new abilities (ST 2, AoE 2).

Two new buttons each. No new bloat. Substantially more complexity.

This isn't rocket science, YoshiP.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think this would be a good gimmick for one of the healers. Although we kind of already have it with Sage's OGCD Addersgall heals.

Still, giving some of the healers combo tricks is imo a good direction to take things. Make it different for each of them:

* Give AST a 1-2-3 proc, where 2 has a 50 percent chance of proccing from 1, and 3 a 50 percent from 2. Fits with their gambler aesthetic.
* Give SGE a 1-2 ST combo, where the 2 creates an addersting. Also have a ST addersting ability so we have the option to ST or AoE addersting.
* Give SCH a branching 1-2 ST combo, where one 2 has one status effect, and one 2 has another. Encourage them to juggle statuses on enemies kind of like SAM juggles buffs.
* And then WHM could have something more straightforward, I really don't care what. Maybe just a straight up 1-2 ST and 1-2 AoE.

There we go. AST gets two new abilities (2, 3 procs). SGE gets two new abilities (2, and ST addersting). SCH gets two new abilities (two branching 2s). WHM gets two new abilities (ST 2, AoE 2).

Two new buttons each. No new bloat. Substantially more complexity.

This isn't rocket science, YoshiP.

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With the comment he made it might as well be rocket science to them. Probably can’t fathom people asking for healers to be engaging in 95% of content lmao.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think this would be a good gimmick for one of the healers. Although we kind of already have it with Sage's OGCD Addersgall heals.

Still, giving some of the healers combo tricks is imo a good direction to take things. Make it different for each of them:

* Give AST a 1-2-3 proc, where 2 has a 50 percent chance of proccing from 1, and 3 a 50 percent from 2. Fits with their gambler aesthetic.
* Give SGE a 1-2 ST combo, where the 2 creates an addersting. Also have a ST addersting ability so we have the option to ST or AoE addersting.
* Give SCH a branching 1-2 ST combo, where one 2 has one status effect, and one 2 has another. Encourage them to juggle statuses on enemies kind of like SAM juggles buffs.
* And then WHM could have something more straightforward, I really don't care what. Maybe just a straight up 1-2 ST and 1-2 AoE.

There we go. AST gets two new abilities (2, 3 procs). SGE gets two new abilities (2, and ST addersting). SCH gets two new abilities (two branching 2s). WHM gets two new abilities (ST 2, AoE 2).

Two new buttons each. No new bloat. Substantially more complexity.

This isn't rocket science, YoshiP.

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I don't know how often you play AST, or if you even do, but there hasn't been so much joy over various changes that affected or introduced RNG in AST in EW. Also, having to add procs into a job that already is the busiest with the cards ? Doesn't make sense. If anything, I would add a burst (which AST lacks) on a longish CD.

For SCH, it would be great just to have bane back ( if I recall the skill that allowed us to spread dots correctly).

Aside from that, I do like your ideas to keep some different flavour between the jobs, I don't see that it would add substantially more complexity at all though, it's rather embarrassing that these minor changes are so difficult to discuss with SE.
in all the healers with the cards? So

I think Lucid's jarring design just got amplified by 6.0 AST who has a pseudo Lucid baked into its card rotation. I'd rather have the main gimmick of the healer contributing to MP sustain than a boring generic button on a 60s cooldown that just regens mp and nothing else. Right now you could remove MP cost and Lucid from the healer design and nothing would change at all because this resource isn't really being used properly anymore due to GCD healing being relegated to the last resort buttons. This is the same reason Stamina got removed in the first place so I'm not sure whats the point of keeping MP when it's in the exact same state. Outside of PLD, DRK and BLM, none of which are healers, i haven't been engaged with the MP bar at all. Not even PVP healers, which have a better use for the system.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I think Lucid's jarring design just got amplified by 6.0 AST who has a pseudo Lucid baked into its card rotation. I'd rather have the main gimmick of the healer contributing to MP sustain than a boring generic button on a 60s cooldown that just regens mp and nothing else.

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Why have either do so, as compared to just having higher passive MP regen? The MP on Draw provides literally no difference in gameplay except to punish longer periods of downtime.

I get that flavor text can look flavorful in its text, but there is no in-practice implication to that added MP on something you would have hit on CD anyways and for which there is no risk to doing so (Draw now cools upon using Draw, rather than upon Play, since they've been decoupled).

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Tbh. I feel they should remove lucid dreaming and all mana regen abilities or spells and make a 1-3 combo that regenerates mana.
People dying because the healer was doing a damage spell was never the fault of the damage spell, it was the healer.

Just me though.

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Generally people die because they either outright refuse to do mechanics or are simply new and are ignorant of them. Almost every job has some sort of self healing, shield or damage reduction.

Some jobs have multiple of those 3.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why have either do so, as compared to just having higher passive MP regen? The MP on Draw provides literally no difference in gameplay except to punish longer periods of downtime.

I get that flavor text can look flavorful in its text, but there is no in-practice implication to that added MP on something you would have hit on CD anyways and for which there is no risk to doing so (Draw now cools upon using Draw, rather than upon Play, since they've been decoupled).

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I'm convinced the only reason MP even exists anymore is because BLM's entire gimmick relies on it. Rez is so inconsequential in terms of its impact on most healers and even SMN and RDM don't need much MP sustain to manage a few rezzes with only Lucid that I just can't see any real reason for its existence outside of BLM.

I don't particularly think combos, at least 1/2/3 combos are a huge upgrade over 1 button nuke spamming.

Casters and healers are all about skill priorities. Black mage for example doesn't have combos and still manages to make really clear whar the rotation should focus on, essentially trying to fit as many high damage spells into the Astral Fire as you can. In that sense, healers could have personal burst phases, where your prompt healing is rewarded with a strong DPS boost.

In that sense, things like Addersting (If dps neutral) could make gameplay interesting.
WHM for example could gain a self buff or unlock flashy dps abilities when they heal a party member under 50% HP. Or their Regen Ticks could proc a DPS upgrade (And Aero ticks could proc a Healing upgrade).

You want to reward healers for healing efficiently and so, having the heal part of their kit sinergize with the dps part, or interact with their class resource is a good first step to design more engaging class mechanics.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I don't particularly think combos, at least 1/2/3 combos are a huge upgrade over 1 button nuke spamming.

Casters and healers are all about skill priorities. Black mage for example doesn't have combos and still manages to make really clear whar the rotation should focus on, essentially trying to fit as many high damage spells into the Astral Fire as you can. In that sense, healers could have personal burst phases, where your prompt healing is rewarded with a strong DPS boost.

In that sense, things like Addersting (If dps neutral) could make gameplay interesting.
WHM for example could gain a self buff or unlock flashy dps abilities when they heal a party member under 50% HP. Or their Regen Ticks could proc a DPS upgrade (And Aero ticks could proc a Healing upgrade).

You want to reward healers for healing efficiently and so, having the heal part of their kit sinergize with the dps part, or interact with their class resource is a good first step to design more engaging class mechanics.

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I actually like this idea. Essentially we want to make sure healer's are kept busy with using most of their toolkit rather than sticking to one button spam with the occasional needed heal.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

WHM for example could gain a self buff or unlock flashy dps abilities when they heal a party member under 50% HP. Or their Regen Ticks could proc a DPS upgrade (And Aero ticks could proc a Healing upgrade).

You want to reward healers for healing efficiently and so, having the heal part of their kit sinergize with the dps part, or interact with their class resource is a good first step to design more engaging class mechanics.

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I agree that healers should get a bonus for doing their jobs but I would prefer that it not involve freaking out players by intentionally letting them get low so we can get a buff.

I’d rather tie healer dps to the overall groups health percentage. The higher the groups health, the bigger the dps. Dead players would be a whole 10% dps loss each on the healers. Rez them, heal them, then back to dps.

Healer first, dps second.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I agree that healers should get a bonus for doing their jobs but I would prefer that it not involve freaking out players by intentionally letting them get low so we can get a buff.

I’d rather tie healer dps to the overall groups health percentage. The higher the groups health, the bigger the dps. Dead players would be a whole 10% dps loss each on the healers. Rez them, heal them, then back to dps.

Healer first, dps second.

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Ofc then the issue would be the incomming damage not being enough to warrant the use of healing spells.

When I said sinergy between healing and dpsing I didn't mean to make one dependant on the other:
Imagine your dps being dependant on your healing but there is nothing to heal, that would make your kit crumble and your gameplay feel awful.

As for having the DPS of a character tied to their health percentage, I don't think that's as good as an idea as you might think. It would make HoTs pretty undesirable and shields completely busted. Burst healing will become even more mandatory, which indeed might incentivize players to use their GCD tools but it might make other tools obsolete.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Ofc then the issue would be the incoming damage not being enough to warrant the use of healing spells.

When I said synergy between healing and dpsing I didn't mean to make one dependent on the other:
Imagine your dps being dependent on your healing but there is nothing to heal, that would make your kit crumble and your gameplay feel awful.

As for having the DPS of a character tied to their health percentage, I don't think that's as good as an idea as you might think. It would make HoTs pretty undesirable and shields completely busted. Burst healing will become even more mandatory, which indeed might incentivize players to use their GCD tools but it might make other tools obsolete.

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Plus, it creates perverse incentive to try to either a) overheal, if the healing is not itself a DPS loss, or b) pass off the actual healing to the cohealer if the healing is a DPS loss.

Higher HP = more damage on a move is the kind of ability that makes sense in a different game, like some eras of FF11 (there's a lot of bad things that can trigger off someone even being lower than 76% HP, among them certain mobs linking). Or any game where in the incoming damage is really high, and the cathartic "payoff" to succeeding at a healer check is to blast off the "the party is back at max HP, eat it" button. It's not good in FF14, which requires little healing and what healing tools do exist are most efficiently used when the target is at low health. Essential Dignity and Excogition even have "meant to be used on a badly hurt party member) built into their mechanics.

They removed Spirits Within's "higher HP = higher potency" clause in FF14 for a reason.

Could have shields grant healers a buff that scales with dmg negated, HoTs with the overall heal(whether it's healing damage or not but with a bonus if it is actively healing lost health). All healers have barriers, and HoTs, the only issue with this hypothetical I put forward is that it rewards Crit stats as both HoTs and GCD shields can crit. They could adjust the oGCD shields WHM and AST have so that they also can crit their barriers (not to the extent a SCH or SGE can since they are CDs and are essentially free). Whether these are personal damage buffs, or party aura buffs can be decided on separately heck just maintaining these buff can build a enochian like gauge that each healer can then spend on something (which could be buffs), but this change should allow for the healing kits to actually interact with the rest of a healer's kit.

This allows Regen healers to be a bit more straightforward with their HoTs buff and Shield healers can be a bit more proactive with shields, basically giving shield healers a choice to how they want to react to incoming damage i.e: Next incoming damage wont kill us but I can shield it anyway to bank a buff/build gauge or I can keep DPS'ing and just heal up afterwards, and being rewarded for it, while the Throughput Healers can simply focus on their diligence for maintaining their HoTs and deploying their pocket oGCD shields. This will focus Throughput Healers as being shaped by diligence and Shield Healers on their proactive-ness, and just like how all 4 have shields and regens in their kits somewhere you need both diligence and proactiveness to succeed as a healer or at least that can be the ideal.

My dumb hypothetical was simply trying to add choices for the healers to make that are approachable choices, meaning it's introducing choices where there aren't any but not in a way where one would be paralyzed with said choices, in my incoming damage example, the damage is gonna be dealt and as a healer you still have to deal with it, but now there is a nuance present if you wish to take it. This change would make it a bit more MP intensive but SE could buff piety a tad and actually make it something that enables a decision making moment for sub stats for once. And lastly, this dumb proposal of mine wouldn't obviate the reworks healers still need such as WHM in general, lackluster Fairy Gauge interactivity and so on.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why have either do so, as compared to just having higher passive MP regen? The MP on Draw provides literally no difference in gameplay except to punish longer periods of downtime.

I get that flavor text can look flavorful in its text, but there is no in-practice implication to that added MP on something you would have hit on CD anyways and for which there is no risk to doing so (Draw now cools upon using Draw, rather than upon Play, since they've been decoupled).

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I was moreso talking about Astrodyne rather than Draw itself.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I agree that healers should get a bonus for doing their jobs but I would prefer that it not involve freaking out players by intentionally letting them get low so we can get a buff.

I’d rather tie healer dps to the overall groups health percentage. The higher the groups health, the bigger the dps. Dead players would be a whole 10% dps loss each on the healers. Rez them, heal them, then back to dps.

Healer first, dps second.

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This... could result in some serious griefing, be it intentional or otherwise. At the higher end, you want specific kill times. Now all you have to do is deliberately take more damage. Tanks could easily accomplish this by mitigating only enough to survive but drop low. What of invulns, three of the four tanks drop to 1 HP. This change makes tank invulns a punishment for both healers, and a DPS loss overall for the raid. This gets much worse at the lower end where tanks often don't mitigate properly. Now healers get punished for a tank mistake, and punished again should the tank die.

Suffice it to say, this would not go over well.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I agree that healers should get a bonus for doing their jobs but I would prefer that it not involve freaking out players by intentionally letting them get low so we can get a buff.

I’d rather tie healer dps to the overall groups health percentage. The higher the groups health, the bigger the dps. Dead players would be a whole 10% dps loss each on the healers. Rez them, heal them, then back to dps.

Healer first, dps second.

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You're asking for healers to get punished for things they often have no control over.
Your suggestion was probably to encourage healers to keep the party constantly healthy, perhaps at something like 70%+ and only dps once that is achieved so everyone definitely focusses on healing first and the "no heal green DPS" problem is forever solved.
But, whether you like it or not, healing efficiently often means letting people drop or not healing right the instant the damage hit. With your suggestion that isn't an option. Waiting for 8s more seconds until the oGCD comes off cooldown will now be a dps loss. You see low HP bars, you better play whack-a-mole with them or lose dps.
A party not mitigation, a co heal wasting your resources by sniping, people eating extra, someone dying for whatever reason, people missing aoe heals from standing in Narnia will all punish you twice. All of that is already punishing because you have to use extra resources to correct what happened, often having to use GCD heals. The difference between a party mitigating properly and one that doesn't is huge, moreso with EW and the additional mitigation and heals several classes got.
It would also completely go against how skills like Excog, Bene and ED work as they profit from having lower HP and 3 of 4 invulns that result in the tank dropping to 1 HP. It would also go against how Regens work because while powerful they'd be too slow to not result in a noticeable dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

You're asking for healers to get punished for things they often have no control over.

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We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

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Only in PUG content

That crappy behaviour doesn't exists in serious groups . If DPS causes, avoidable , excess damage that needs to be healed when normally it isnt needed , causing the "healers to adjust" they wont last long in a decent static especially when you get to stages were every GCD counts

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

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I can't remember a time when I really encountered this to be honest.
Perhaps it's a DC thing but I've never had anyone tell me in any way to adjust, to just heal through it etc. when it was avoidable. On the contrary, I usually saw people dodging things that barely tickled and losing dps over it and I said they can just eat it because I have more than enough free heals.
Sometimes people eat extra because they miscalculcated, it happens but I can't remember ever getting the feeling it was an intentional "Why dodge? The healer is going to heal it, I don't care" because the way they generally played simply suggested otherwise. There exist strats (like uptime football on e6s or all stack on e7s adds) that go for higher uptime at the cost of higher damage taken but they weren't common until the end of the tier when everyone was overgeared and it only took an oGCD from each healer to heal it.
Tank LB strats or invuln cheesing entire mechanics are much more popular.
What I did sometimes encounter in log run parties were tanks that used their mitigation/ invuln to eat mechanics for better uptime and thus took more damage on autos and tankbusters, forcing healers to heal more. But when I spoke up about it and said that a log run party is supposed to be for everyone and that would include healers, others usually chimed in and said that griefing others in log runs is a no-go and the tanks either stopped it or left.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I don't know how often you play AST, or if you even do, but there hasn't been so much joy over various changes that affected or introduced RNG in AST in EW. Also, having to add procs into a job that already is the busiest with the cards ? Doesn't make sense. If anything, I would add a burst (which AST lacks) on a longish CD.

For SCH, it would be great just to have bane back ( if I recall the skill that allowed us to spread dots correctly).

Aside from that, I do like your ideas to keep some different flavour between the jobs, I don't see that it would add substantially more complexity at all though, it's rather embarrassing that these minor changes are so difficult to discuss with SE.
in all the healers with the cards? So

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Never played it. I admit to coming up with the ideas on the spot. The point isn't exactly what changes are made, just that each healer should have a little DPS mini-game they can be playing like all the other jobs.

Though imo a damage RNG mini-game would not hurt AST, or any other healer for that matter. The point isn't to punish the player for DPSing poorly... It's just to give them a little more variety in their attack style. For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement.

Also I think WHM's glare is a good direction to take healers. The stun doesn't do too much, but it adds just a little flavor and agency to make the job more interesting. Like I think gravity should inflict the "heavy" status...which would then require some thought as to how/when to use it (i.e. it probably would be great for trial trash mobs, but would need to be judiciously used for dungeon mobs).

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Never played it. I admit to coming up with the ideas on the spot. The point isn't exactly what changes are made, just that each healer should have a little DPS mini-game they can be playing like all the other jobs.

Though imo a damage RNG mini-game would not hurt AST, or any other healer for that matter. The point isn't to punish the player for DPSing poorly... It's just to give them a little more variety in their attack style. For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement.

Also I think WHM's glare is a good direction to take healers. The stun doesn't do too much, but it adds just a little flavor and agency to make the job more interesting. Like I think gravity should inflict the "heavy" status...which would then require some thought as to how/when to use it (i.e. it probably would be great for trial trash mobs, but would need to be judiciously used for dungeon mobs).

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Thank you for clarifying, I can see that a lot of people are trying to comp up with improvements, which really is appreciated. for one thing, i do like the ide of adding "heavY', i've seen that before, don"t know why the have never added that.

However, unfortunately if i take one of your comments " For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement." - if i apply that to AST again, one of the complaints relates to button bloat and unnecessary it's being busy just to be...busy. So adding an extra button that doesn't really do much? Especially if it's added on a level 90 character? No, especially as healers have so few DPS options and likely will remain with few options- they should be well thought out.

In addition, that idea of punishing someone for DPS? i don't know what you mean exactly, if it's a distraction, well that comes down to design - almost no one intends a complex DPS rotation as per DPS jobs ( I certainly don't). If it comes down to other player harassing a healer? that is simply not allowed, period, within the TOS, again, not a factor.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

*snip*

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I acknowledge that some people say it's busywork, but then that's all the tank jobs too and they still have simple mini-games to play in their DPS rotations. Granted, what their 1-2-3 combos offer is mostly aesthetic and a couple different buttons, but I posit that you're just viewing it from the opposite angle I am. I am *not* saying that what a lot of people want or propose will have much if any objective improvement on how healers actually play. But they will (a) better distinguish the job fantasy, which in itself does so much for player engagement and enjoyment. And, far more importantly, (b) it wouldn't be spamming "1" 92 percent of the time. The bar really is that low, and I agree with you that having thought out abilities is preferable...but at this point they don't even need to be thought out much at all to be better than what we have.

Also, I forgot to address in previous, but while I don't mind the idea of AST having a burst instead, I am torn on the idea of giving healers burst phases because then that creates a complication of being expected to sync with the party's burst phases, when to my mind healers want the *option* to weave mini-bursts more than they want big bangy spells. But if any healer did get a big bangy explosion, AST has to be the one. It just has to.

As for punishment, typically the way combos work in the DPS and tank classes is they have a specific order that they need to be played, otherwise they do minimal damage and you are effectively punished for missing your proper combos. Like, taking my experience for tanks, if you don't follow through to the 3rd ability of your 1-2-3, you don't get your gauge/stacks for the other half of your abilities. You literally do not get to do the weighty, fun parts of your dps rotation if you mess up your basic combos. I don't think healers need that degree of disparity between hitting their 1-2(;3), or being forced to interrupt with a heal and just doing 1-1--it would be *nice* if they got extra bonuses rewards they could spend on DPS if they do their basic combos correctly, but I acknowledge that would require a LOT of extra balancing (which could eventually happen down the line). What I am advocating for is literally just the quick and dirty easy fix to get the jobs mostly there, which could then be refined and built out. But I especially think that sort of logic would apply to AST if they are trying to weave in and out of card RNG.

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I acknowledge that some people say it's busywork, but then that's all the tank jobs too and they still have simple mini-games to play in their DPS rotations. Granted, what their 1-2-3 combos offer is mostly aesthetic and a couple different buttons, but I posit that you're just viewing it from the opposite angle I am. I am *not* saying that what a lot of people want or propose will have much if any objective improvement on how healers actually play. But they will (a) better distinguish the job fantasy, which in itself does so much for player engagement and enjoyment. And, far more importantly, (b) it wouldn't be spamming "1" 92 percent of the time. The bar really is that low, and I agree with you that having thought out abilities is preferable...but at this point they don't even need to be thought out much at all to be better than what we have.

Also, I forgot to address in previous, but while I don't mind the idea of AST having a burst instead, I am torn on the idea of giving healers burst phases because then that creates a complication of being expected to sync with the party's burst phases, when to my mind healers want the *option* to weave mini-bursts more than they want big bangy spells. But if any healer did get a big bangy explosion, AST has to be the one. It just has to.

As for punishment, typically the way combos work in the DPS and tank classes is they have a specific order that they need to be played, otherwise they do minimal damage and you are effectively punished for missing your proper combos. Like, taking my experience for tanks, if you don't follow through to the 3rd ability of your 1-2-3, you don't get your gauge/stacks for the other half of your abilities. You literally do not get to do the weighty, fun parts of your dps rotation if you mess up your basic combos. I don't think healers need that degree of disparity between hitting their 1-2(;3), or being forced to interrupt with a heal and just doing 1-1--it would be *nice* if they got extra bonuses rewards they could spend on DPS if they do their basic combos correctly, but I acknowledge that would require a LOT of extra balancing (which could eventually happen down the line). What I am advocating for is literally just the quick and dirty easy fix to get the jobs mostly there, which could then be refined and built out. But I especially think that sort of logic would apply to AST if they are trying to weave in and out of card RNG.

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

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Thanks, I can see where you're coming from, a lot of it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

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Obvious concerns for ping aside, any sort of variation like this would be much appreciated.

To be clear, I don't consider 1-2-3 combos as offering enough to warrant their button-cost, but less rigid/thoughtless means of offering "[woven] mini-bursts" would be a huge boon for healer gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Obvious concerns for ping aside, any sort of variation like this would be much appreciated.

To be clear, I don't consider 1-2-3 combos as offering enough to warrant their button-cost, but less rigid/thoughtless means of offering "[woven] mini-bursts" would be a huge boon for healer gameplay.

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Hmmm.

Similar to the way gnashing fang works? Sprinkle some dancer in there, your heals turn into damage buttons as to not increase button bloat.
6 GCDs of damage skills like the way Egi assaults work whether you break the combo or not.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Hmmm.

Similar to the way gnashing fang works? Sprinkle some dancer in there, your heals turn into damage buttons as to not increase button bloat.
6 GCDs of damage skills like the way Egi assaults work whether you break the combo or not.

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The particulars of how we include those downtime abilities don't especially matter beyond their being, on the whole, diverse, cohesive, and to some degree fitting for their kits.

At present, the one-button spam of healer downtime gives two further issues beyond its obvious monotony: they have no particular fit to/with their job surrounding kits and those tools they have no distinction from those of other healer kits. They all play equally --(and) homogeneously-- independently and dully.