Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You would be wrong because there absolutely is not any hole in the ToS where a GM is going to punish someone for being a burden to others with bad play. There would have to be solid proof they had violated the griefing ToS parameters and just being bad or inexperienced is not going to fulfill that.

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There is always a hole, like i said "no wall2wall" is actually griefing and can be reported, even if the tank is "unexperienced" so why wouldnt that be a reason to get reported? its always a matter of interpretation

and btw being "bad" while still joining hard content which requires teamwork and coordination and a certain dps is actually griefing

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

There is always a hole, like i said "no wall2wall" is actually griefing and can be reported, even if the tank is "unexperienced" so why wouldnt that be a reason to get reported? its always a matter of interpretation

and btw being "bad" while still joining hard content which requires teamwork and coordination and a certain dps is actually griefing

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You can report for whatever you want but it's laughable that you think any GM is going to consider either of those valid.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

There is always a hole, like i said "no wall2wall" is actually griefing and can be reported, even if the tank is "unexperienced" so why wouldnt that be a reason to get reported? its always a matter of interpretation

and btw being "bad" while still joining hard content which requires teamwork and coordination and a certain dps is actually griefing

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I mean if were pulling out the ToS:

Calling someone "bad" itself is actually against ToS if you ever bothered to read them: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

"Making statements intended to belittle someone, such as "you can't do [something], maybe this is just not possible for you?" If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is prohibited for groups of players to target and ridicule a specific player. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

* The above act involves an excessive amount of criticism/condemnation. Players may not denounce another player. If you feel a player is causing an issue, please file a report."

As well as:

"・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."


Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, or online video/streaming services.
"

I think this last part is especially important for the discussion at hand because IT QUITE LITERALLY STATES IN THE TOS THAT YOU CANNOT JUST EXCLUDE PEOPLE.
And I would advocate ANYONE (especially OP in this case) to actually report groups that treat you like this for wanting to join FT. Just because you are a random does not mean you are not as important as the other players. You can always redirect those calling you a sniper to the ToS. :)

Final edit:
About this section in the ToS:

・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.
Key Points
Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.


If a random simply joins your run and tries their best and then wipes you (at the traps or whatever) then guess what: they still havent done anything wrong since they are trying their best. I really don't know why everyone is acting so elitist when they know full well they have no ground to stand on and no real reason to keep randoms away from their little clique. As long as they don't act malicious (and taking a spot isnt being malicious, they are simply playing the cipher lottery like the devs intended) and try their best.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

There is always a hole, like i said "no wall2wall" is actually griefing and can be reported, even if the tank is "unexperienced" so why wouldnt that be a reason to get reported? its always a matter of interpretation

and btw being "bad" while still joining hard content which requires teamwork and coordination and a certain dps is actually griefing

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No it isn't at all this is bull.

The whole Thread here showed me yet again one big thing, the Raiders arent the Issues, the Issue are straight up the Plebs, and i say it from the start with Plebs i dont talk about Casuals, because Casuals enjoy a Challenge too, you arent a Hardcoreplayer automatic if you raid or anything just from to start. With Plebs i mean people for them even the Storydungeons are too hard, People which are straight up refuse to have social interactions in a MMORPG or People which refuse to Improve in any way, the best for them is a Boss which doesnt hit back and they can kill them with 20s between button presses, so trash straight up trash.

You got 1 Person which organized 47 People, prepared with them together, watched Guides, watched Strats heck maybe even was already in with the same Group, then tries to hop through instances to get all 48 People in one Instance and get snipped by one single person and even if you ask them and explain the wanna do it with the group they builded, this one dude has no respect at all and tries to FORCE his way into the Content because "i pay my sub its public content im entilted to it"

Bruh, if there is a Demonstration on a PUBLIC STREET even if its a PUBLIC STREET i cant just drive with my car through it i have to take other ways around, what i wanna say with it, only because its Public Content doesnt mean you cant force your way all the time in it, just respect other people.

When i see then here how many People are against Discord, Pls just quit the Game i mean seriously, i come from MMOs where Voice was a obligation if you joined a Guild or anything but here in Final? Its a meeting point for weak ass minded introvert pus... "oh i dont wanna join discord oh noooo" then quit the game, if you dont wanna social interactions in a MMO, organized Discordgroups were always be a part of any MMO but here in Final the People are really crying about everything it seems

MMOs were always know for Endgamecontent and Challenges in them, give me one MMO which is completly for "Plebs" or People which refuse any Social Interaction, there is none.

Why are you playing a MMO if you dont like the Combat? Dont like Challenges, Grind, Social Interactions, Voicechats etc etc etc? If its for the Story, just watch a Recap on Youtube.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

snip

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If you pull the ToS Card :

"Just as in the real world, it is important to be considerate of other players to maintain cordial relationships and positive experiences in the world of Final Fantasy XIV. It is prohibited to make expressions or to act in ways that would be unacceptable in the real world. This includes disturbing the peace and having a lack of consideration for others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued."

"having a lack of consideration for others" if i watch Guides, Learn Strats, try to get 48 People in one Instance and there is one Person which doesnt Respect the Time involvment and shows no consideration if someone wants to do the Content with 48 Premades and forces his way into it, i clearly call that a lack of consideration of other players.

Found my hole.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

The whole Thread here showed me yet again one big thing, the Raiders arent the Issues, the Issue are straight up the Plebs, and i say it from the start with Plebs i dont talk about Casuals, because Casuals enjoy a Challenge too, you arent a Hardcoreplayer automatic if you raid or anything just from to start. With Plebs i mean people for them even the Storydungeons are too hard, People which are straight up refuse to have social interactions in a MMORPG or People which refuse to Improve in any way, the best for them is a Boss which doesnt hit back and they can kill them with 20s between button presses, so trash straight up trash.

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I would once more direct you towards the ToS which clearly state:

"・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

As well as:




Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, or online video/streaming services.
"

You don't have to like it. But what you are doing right now is gatekeeping and goes entirely against ToS.

Also your entire response is a big big yikes and falls squarely under harassment so much so that I don't even know where to begin lmao. But you made your point. You clearly don't want people like me around and that's more than fine. Problem is people like me make up a good chunk of the game sooo.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Bruh, if there is a Demonstration on a PUBLIC STREET even if its a PUBLIC STREET i cant just drive with my car through it i have to take other ways around, what i wanna say with it, only because its Public Content doesnt mean you cant force your way all the time in it, just respect other people.

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Whilst I get where you're coming from with this analogy, in context there is absolutely nothing to stop you parking your car and joining that demonstration either. Which is exactly the point some are making here.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

If you pull the ToS Card :

"Just as in the real world, it is important to be considerate of other players to maintain cordial relationships and positive experiences in the world of Final Fantasy XIV. It is prohibited to make expressions or to act in ways that would be unacceptable in the real world. This includes disturbing the peace and having a lack of consideration for others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued."

"having a lack of consideration for others" if i watch Guides, Learn Strats, try to get 48 People in one Instance and there is one Person which doesnt Respect the Time involvment and shows no consideration if someone wants to do the Content with 48 Premades and forces his way into it, i clearly call that a lack of consideration of other players.

Found my hole.

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And I think I also already told you you are absolutely free to report them if you see fit. That is what the report button does and what it's there for. You and I can only throw mud against each other for so long. I don't believe you have any grounds to stand on and you don't believe I have any grounds to stand on. I will keep reporting people calling others snipers and you can start reporting randoms. We're both happy and the GMs have to decide at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Whilst I get where you're coming from with this analogy, in context there is absolutely nothing to stop you parking your car and joining that demonstration either. Which is exactly the point some are making here.

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True but thats the Point "joining the demonstration" look, if there would be a random which would then join Discord and be PART of the Group maybe watch quick a guide to get atleast a small glance it would be a smaller issues, but most of the people even refuse to look over a guide, or even join discord then, and thats my issue, they try to force a way in the group but not even trying to adjust to the other 47 People

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

If you pull the ToS Card :

"Just as in the real world, it is important to be considerate of other players to maintain cordial relationships and positive experiences in the world of Final Fantasy XIV. It is prohibited to make expressions or to act in ways that would be unacceptable in the real world. This includes disturbing the peace and having a lack of consideration for others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued."

"having a lack of consideration for others" if i watch Guides, Learn Strats, try to get 48 People in one Instance and there is one Person which doesnt Respect the Time involvment and shows no consideration if someone wants to do the Content with 48 Premades and forces his way into it, i clearly call that a lack of consideration of other players.

Found my hole.

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Forces his way into it? What are you talking about it's part of the game that you can randomly join in with this content....

What some of you see as harassment is actually a fair and polite warning that if they choose to enter the content, then they're on their own as they will not be receiving assistance. It's to give the random player the option to back out before entering, nobody can stop them from entering, so it's only fair to notify them this.

If people start flinging reports everywhere, then nobody will communicate with randoms anymore. The random player will enter the content and be confused why everyone is ignoring them and leaving them on the floor, they would also be left without recourse since ignoring someone is not reportable. This would just further sour the experience for any random players.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I suppose people always want to have a boogeyman. Mentors, casuals, raiders, now discord groups.

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Oh don't worry about that! Discord groups have been widely loathed for years.

But hey I have a helpful suggestion. When you politely ask someone to leave, do you offer them any compensation? I'm sure they haven't put in the hours you have with all the nightmare of organization and such, but they have leveled and possibly been waiting for some time for the weather to pop.

I figure 5 million gil should hit the spot. What's that, about 1/5th of a CAR hairstyle?

Afterthought: isn't the fact that it is a major hassle to get 48 people into the same instance definitive proof that SE definitely did not want this content run by 48-person premades?

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

I agree this is pure toxicity trying to stop random players joining in because they've got a premade group i can't believe they can't see how anti social that actually is. The game allows randoms in. Simple as that, you can harass, shame, reject etc but that's a reflection on you and your 'amazing chill discord' not them. I've only just reached this content myself and planned to try it out but reading all this is very off putting. I have no desire to seek out any of these discords at all so far. Also Ieaving somebody dead is reportable because you're disrupting their enjoyment of the game.

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The game allows you to join a savage kill party on PF even if you've never entered the fight before. Would the 7 party members be disrupting your enjoyment of the game if they removed you and blacklisted you for not being ready to kill (per the objective of that premade group)? The game allows you to join that party after all, it's clearly the intended design, right?

Or is courtesy not something you need only when the method of entry is a glowing platform, rather than a PF menu?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

What some of you see as harassment is actually a fair and polite warning that if they choose to enter the content, then they're on their own as they will not be receiving assistance. It's to give the random player the option to back out before entering, nobody can stop them from entering, so it's only fair to notify them this.

If people start flinging reports everywhere, then nobody will communicate with randoms anymore. The random player will enter the content and be confused why everyone is ignoring them and leaving them on the floor, they would also be left without recourse since ignoring someone is not reportable. This would just further sour the experience for any random players.

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i'd rather be ignored than rudely being asked to leave. You can't even tell when you're being 'ignored' because we're online and it's a game, being 'ignored' could just be people focusing on the fight or talking in vc or anything really.

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Originally Posted by Neclord

The game allows you to join a savage kill party on PF even if you've never entered the fight before. Would the 7 party members be disrupting your enjoyment of the game if they removed you and blacklisted you for not being ready to kill (per the objective of that premade group)? The game allows you to join that party after all, it's clearly the intended design, right?

Or is courtesy not something you need only when the method of entry is a glowing platform, rather than a PF menu?

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It is the intended design and some people enjoy playing content blind and it's part of the design that the leader of the pf can remove people sooo i'm not sure what your point is because can you physically remove someone trying to play forked tower? or do you have to rudely ask them to leave, threaten them with toxicity etc etc .

also to add to this ...in pf you can set it so only people with clears can join, you can do all kinds of things to prevent a random newbie joining so yeah really don't get your point

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

It is the intended design and some people enjoy playing content blind and it's part of the design that the leader of the pf can remove people sooo i'm not sure what your point is because can you physically remove someone trying to play forked tower? or do you have to rudely ask them to leave, threaten them with toxicity etc etc .

also to add to this ...in pf you can set it so only people with clears can join, you can do all kinds of things to prevent a random newbie joining so yeah really don't get your point

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A kill party in PF is for people looking to get their first clear. Anyone can join those. It's not a reclear party.

This is exactly the point. Unlike PF, there are no protections for players and organisers trying to do serious runs of Forked Tower. 48 people are entirely reliant on the manners and courtesy of the other players populating the instance. These players would never naturally enter the tower without these organised groups being there and it is in nobody's interest for them to disrupt the run.

If you went into the middle of an open public field with a picnic basket and the 20 or so people playing a game of football on that field that you are now wedged between approached you and politely asked you to leave, would they be rude? Would you be discourteous? The field is open and accessible to the public, after all. You have just as much a right to be there as they do - if they have a problem they should just take it up with the local authority.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If that's true, then go and PUG it? SE left their "organized group content" calling card on it - which is limited rez. If it was the intent, we'd all be pugging it like we did CLL, DR and Dalriada in Shadowbringers.

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But that's the point, isn't it? That that's what the OP tried to do. There were no barriers in their way to doing it - just a group being jerks about it on the other side.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

By all accounts I've read, the people who die are not killed on purpose. Rather, they are killed by a tank buster they stood in because they don't know the mechanics.

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I mean, sure, that can happen. OP seemed quite sure they were deliberately killed, though, which seems to be supported by the fact they were then refused a res.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's important to also understand that these forums are cross-region. People in the EU region are, on average, far more blunt and more sweaty when it comes to raids. They will more often call people out directly and be rude in dungeons.

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I hear what you're saying. I'm just not sure why.

If "the truth" people are so interested in telling is "I'm okay with being a jerk to people in the game who get in my way" then more power to them on their self-reporting forum rampages, I guess.

The part I'm not sure about is whether you're telling me I should be more okay with someone tank-busting me because in French they'd say "Le Tank Busteurre, le croissant-head!" or something (important note: it's possible I do not speak any French), which is therefore a much more socially acceptable way of griefing me in Europe.

You'd better believe that if someone deliberately tank-busts me I'm writing angrily about them being mean in my dream journal at the end of the day, no matter WHERE they come from.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Afterthought: isn't the fact that it is a major hassle to get 48 people into the same instance definitive proof that SE definitely did not want this content run by 48-person premades?

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Which circles back to the original problem the so called “casuals” side of this discussion never has an answer for

If this content isn’t done by discords it’s done by nobody. Which is ultimately square enix’s awful design for the entry conditions

Like short of square completely redesigning it what do you want the discords to do? Anyone feel free to chime in here, what do you want the discords to do? They are filling a niche that makes this content possible. If your answer is “it shouldn’t need discord” then congrats your problem isn’t with the discords it’s with square.

Every person who joins in place of an organised discord participant lowers chance of success. As has been shown OP as an example died because they didn’t know a mechanic and almost killed others by blowing up traps. What else can the discords do? If you don’t want deal with them at all then again the problem is square.

Like people here acting like the discords are evil and the problem I have no idea how you want to solve this content

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Originally Posted by Aravell

What some of you see as harassment is actually a fair and polite warning that if they choose to enter the content, then they're on their own as they will not be receiving assistance. It's to give the random player the option to back out before entering, nobody can stop them from entering, so it's only fair to notify them this.

If people start flinging reports everywhere, then nobody will communicate with randoms anymore. The random player will enter the content and be confused why everyone is ignoring them and leaving them on the floor, they would also be left without recourse since ignoring someone is not reportable. This would just further sour the experience for any random players.

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It is actually objectively harrasment according to the games ToS I do not get why you cannot understand this.

""・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

Like what do you not understand? You are clearly excluding someone from doing content by doing this. Why do you ignore that point so much lol. As I told someone else, you don't have to like it. The randoms you accuse of sniping certainly don't like it, I don't like it. But that is how the game handles entrance to FT. This is not some PF people sign up for. It is literally "walk up and put in a cipher". Nothing more, nothing less. It is not gated behind savages and ultimates where you have to go out of your way to talk to an NPC to unlock said content, it is unlocked by doing OC by DEFAULT. What do you elitists not understand...

As for ignoring them and leaving them on the floor. See ToS again.

"For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

(Reviving someone falls under healing for me, its fine if you dont see it that way)

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Originally Posted by Neclord

A kill party in PF is for people looking to get their first clear. Anyone can join those. It's not a reclear party.

This is exactly the point. Unlike PF, there are no protections for players and organisers trying to do serious runs of Forked Tower. 48 people are entirely reliant on the manners and courtesy of the other players populating the instance. These players would never naturally enter the tower without these organised groups being there and it is in nobody's interest for them to disrupt the run.

If you went into the middle of an open public field with a picnic basket and the 20 or so people playing a game of football on that field that you are now wedged between approached you and politely asked you to leave, would they be rude? Would you be discourteous? The field is open and accessible to the public, after all. You have just as much a right to be there as they do - if they have a problem they should just take it up with the local authority.

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This is my point the content is designed differently that's why I wasn't sure why you brought it up. Forked tower is designed so that random players can join in therefore it's not discourteous to just play the game.

In your analogy you wouldn't be someone with a picnic basket you'd also be a football player you just wouldn't be in the team already playing that for some reason got together beforehand to play in a public event however if this game was advertised as a public game of football where anyone could come join in then the players already there would be really rude to exclude people on the basis they didn't plan with them beforehand and yes that should be taken up with the local authority who here would be Square Enix (hence suggestions of reporting this anti community behaviour).

You can try to make out like level 100 players with access to OC and who earn access to forked tower have no clue what they're doing or how to play this content all you like but Square designed this content this way for a reason so unless they change that it's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which circles back to the original problem the so called “casuals” side of this discussion never has an answer for

If this content isn’t done by discords it’s done by nobody. Which is ultimately square enix’s awful design for the entry conditions

Like short of square completely redesigning it what do you want the discords to do? Anyone feel free to chime in here, what do you want the discords to do? They are filling a niche that makes this content possible. If your answer is “it shouldn’t need discord” then congrats your problem isn’t with the discords it’s with square.

Every person who joins in place of an organised discord participant lowers chance of success. As has been shown OP as an example died because they didn’t know a mechanic and almost killed others by blowing up traps. What else can the discords do? If you don’t want deal with them at all then again the problem is square.

Like people here acting like the discords are evil and the problem I have no idea how you want to solve this content

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The content itself should not exist in its current iteration. Remove it from the instance and make it like DRS. All these people are asking from the discords is that the discords treat them like fellow players. Not like garbage they can TK at the start of the run and never revive. Discord groups wouldnt even have the reputation of being so evil if this behaviour didnt happen in the first place.

Yes its frustrating. Yes we all know Square is to blame. But telling randoms to not join and threaten them to not be revived and ignored isnt helping anyone. Why dont the discord groups try to make the best of the situation instead if it happens? Why do they immediately go hostile and all "you dont belong here"?

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

The content itself should not exist in its current iteration. Remove it from the instance and make it like DRS. All these people are asking from the discords is that the discords treat them like fellow players. Not like garbage they can TK at the start of the run and never revive. Discord groups wouldnt even have the reputation of being so evil if this behaviour didnt happen in the first place.

Yes its frustrating. Yes we all know Square is to blame. But telling randoms to not join and threaten them to not be revived and ignored isnt helping anyone. Why dont the discord groups try to make the best of the situation instead if it happens? Why do they immediately go hostile and all "you dont belong here"?

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Sure make it like DRS. Regardless that isn’t a problem anyone besides square can fix and screaming at the discords won’t help there

Because as was clarified later the discord who ran the run OP ran did extend a hand and tried to find out what jobs they had and slot them in. OP was silent and then proceeded to blow up traps killing others

Then the “tankbuster designed to assassinate the OP” was a cleave they stood in front of and died to that they attempted to communicate was a cleave

What more did you want the discord to do. The person wasn’t communicating, was just barely shy of running around like a headless chicken and was getting other people killed. Where does OP’s right go the content end when they are hurting other peoples chances of clearing the content?

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

This is my point the content is designed differently that's why I wasn't sure why you brought it up. Forked tower is designed so that random players can join in therefore it's not discourteous to just play the game.

In your analogy you wouldn't be someone with a picnic basket you'd also be a football player you just wouldn't be in the team already playing that for some reason got together beforehand to play in a public event however if this game was advertised as a public game of football where anyone could come join in then the players already there would be really rude to exclude people on the basis they didn't plan with them beforehand and yes that should be taken up with the local authority who here would be Square Enix (hence suggestions of reporting this anti community behaviour).

You can try to make out like level 100 players with access to OC and who earn access to forked tower have no clue what they're doing or how to play this content all you like but Square designed this content this way for a reason so unless they change that it's how it is.

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Goodness gracious. I dread to think what diabolical behaviour you get up to in public if the only thing regulating your behaviour is what the letter of the law says. Do you leave shopping trolleys out in the middle of the car park as well?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Sure make it like DRS. Regardless that isn’t a problem anyone besides square can fix and screaming at the discords won’t help there

Because as was clarified later the discord who ran the run OP ran did extend a hand and tried to find out what jobs they had and slot them in. OP was silent and then proceeded to blow up traps killing others

Then the “tankbuster designed to assassinate the OP” was a cleave they stood in front of and died to that they attempted to communicate was a cleave

What more did you want the discord to do. The person wasn’t communicating, was just barely shy of running around like a headless chicken and was getting other people killed. Where does OP’s right go the content end when they are hurting other peoples chances of clearing the content?

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Is your definition of extending a hand them saying "lol we let you stay dead"?

And the answer is actually straightforward like it or not, again just look at ToS.

It ends when OP does it maliciously and I cannot see any malicious intent behind OPs actions. It couldve been a mistake, they werent warned etc etc. As long as the randoms have no malicious intent (and joining a content the way the devs intended to is not malicious. Being told not to join is malicious as Ive pointed out numerous times). Simple as.

There really should not even be a discussion. Premades need to learn to go with the flow, either abandon the run altogether and look for a new instance if youre not comfortable with a random joining or try your best with the random in your party. I fail to see the issue.

Edit:

Its also funny that now suddenly the narrative shifted and somehow (after telling OP to piss off and they wont get revived) the discord now reached out? idk this all smells very fishy and yes I do have a very obvious hate-bias towards raiders/content creators I can admit that much but it sounds like some half baked stuff thats been made up to make the streamer OP was allegedly "sniping" look better. I dont know.

If the facts are that the people in FT reached out and tried to communicate with OP (which I cant see mentioned anywhere) and tried to help them and then OP out of spite for whatever reason blew up half the team then sure. Report em and move on. But I have no reason to think OP did anything maliciously and was just doing the content to the best of their ability.


Either way at least we agree that the fault is with square and that FT has managed to drive an even worse wedge between the playerbase. Heres hoping some of it gets adressed in the Live Letter.

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Originally Posted by Neclord

Goodness gracious. I dread to think what diabolical behaviour you get up to in public if the only thing regulating your behaviour is what the letter of the law says. Do you leave shopping trolleys out in the middle of the car park as well?

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social/society runs on rules. you cant be societal without rules because that is a defining factor of society

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

social/society runs on rules. you cant be societal without rules because that is a defining factor of society

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There is more to society than rules. We are not robots. We are human beings. There is also basic human courtesy. This would involve having the social antenna to recognise if a group is occupying a space with a clear objective/purpose.

In the case of our back and forth. Yes, it would be disruptive to set up a picnic in the middle of the field where 20 people are playing football - even if the letter of the law grants you the right to do so.

I'd recommend against engaging in the most law-abiding disruptive behaviour humanly possible in IRL public spaces though. You'd have more than rogue tankbusters and polite requests to leave to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

And you're letting your own bias show by trying to act like toxic hardcore players aren't a thing

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I'm not showing bias because I didn't even mention hardcore players. I'm pointing out that there's a lot of people who are so heavily biased towards hating raiders that they cannot stand anything that shows them even in a neutral light, they have to paint raiders as evil, no matter what. These people very obviously exist and it's a choice they make.

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I also like the part where you expect said casuals to somehow feel sorry for "the other side" when said other side has been nothing but hostile for years, constantly blaming them for everything that goes wrong in this game

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You're ignoring the part where self-proclaimed casuals have also been blaming those "toxic evil raiders" for years on end now, but sure.

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That doesn't sound like "kindness" so much as "coercion" given the implication that they still let the random die (and may or may not have caused it to happen themselves) and THEN want to "negotiate" by leveraging de-leveling over their head as a way to make them beg for a raise and then leave.

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This is your personal interpretation because you believe that the organised group is being malicious. Raid leaders are merely offering them a choice, if they accept, they get raised, if they don't accept, they don't get a raise to prevent future problems in the raid. It's simply just making sure a single person doesn't waste the time of 47 other people through a very preventable mistake.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

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Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

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Originally Posted by Neclord

Goodness gracious. I dread to think what diabolical behaviour you get up to in public if the only thing regulating your behaviour is what the letter of the law says. Do you leave shopping trolleys out in the middle of the car park as well?

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Lmao I know I do. I also leave things on grocery store shelves slightly askew. Even more diabolically When someone tells me to enjoy my meal I say thanks you too. They don't even have a meal to enjoy Muahahahahahahahaha!!!

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

It is actually objectively harrasment according to the games ToS I do not get why you cannot understand this.

""・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
Key Points
It is prohibited to make statements such as the following examples to try to kick someone from the party, content, community, etc. as if they are not qualified to participate. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."
"It's not worth wasting our time, you should quit."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

Like what do you not understand? You are clearly excluding someone from doing content by doing this. Why do you ignore that point so much lol. As I told someone else, you don't have to like it. The randoms you accuse of sniping certainly don't like it, I don't like it. But that is how the game handles entrance to FT. This is not some PF people sign up for. It is literally "walk up and put in a cipher". Nothing more, nothing less. It is not gated behind savages and ultimates where you have to go out of your way to talk to an NPC to unlock said content, it is unlocked by doing OC by DEFAULT. What do you elitists not understand...

As for ignoring them and leaving them on the floor. See ToS again.

"For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

(Reviving someone falls under healing for me, its fine if you dont see it that way)

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"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group." <--- btw that involves being in the group, and thats the point where it isnt against the ToS, every Healer/Tank is it not responsible for things outside the own group, if there is a random and i have my settings to show only group/alliance member names or what ever, sorry to tell you but then i didnt see you or anything

The ToS you are posting all the time right now, involves being part of the group, square cant and doesnt expect to heal/rezz people outside of the own group because thats as "controller" player way to annoying

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

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Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

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You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

I swear, some of you are just holding such irrational hate towards people who just want the best chance to clear content. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything with people who hold such hate.

Oof, Forked Tower really seems to bring out the worst of our so called 'great community'.

It's sad to see, but it's an issue that has developed over the years and has gotten worse and worse. And it's so ironic, too.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of us remember the great WoW Exodus during Shadowbringes. Where many of us didn't want those players to join our 'nice, peaceful' community.
Because their game was supposed to be ultra toxic, casual unfriendly, third party programs were everywhere and don't even start about parsing...

...and look at us now. Look at our community. At the state of the game. It's almost funny, really. We are what we accused WoW of being back then. We have become exactly that.

While toxicity exists in every MMO, and undoubtedly has always existed in 14 as well, it has become worse.
And the baffling decisions of the developers releasing content like this, that is clearly dividing the player base even more and provoking
arguments and disputes among ourselves are making it worse by the minute.

Reading this thread has shown me one thing however: None of us are happy about the status quo.
Casuals aren't happy. Raiders aren't happy (even though right now they are on the favored side of the coin, but who knows for how long?). And still, we blame each other.

OP, personally, I don't think you did something inherently wrong by joining content that is free to join if you meet the requirements. At the same time, I can also understand the frustration of the raid group.
Still, being frustrated should not result in griefing or insults.
The devs need to step up their game to create an environment that doesn't pit players against each other.
So far, sadly, they have failed at this task...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neclord

There is more to society than rules. We are not robots. We are human beings. There is also basic human courtesy. This would involve having the social antenna to recognise if a group is occupying a space with a clear objective/purpose.

In the case of our back and forth. Yes, it would be disruptive to set up a picnic in the middle of the field where 20 people are playing football - even if the letter of the law grants you the right to do so.

I'd recommend against engaging in the most law-abiding disruptive behaviour humanly possible in IRL public spaces though. You'd have more than rogue tankbusters and polite requests to leave to worry about.

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Courtesy wouldn't be asking somebody to leave it would be offering a level of respect to invite the person and confirm they would be ok to join you all so you can play as a group.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

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Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic. Nobody is calling for a rez mid battle either. But dead bodies on the floor after the battle are visible by anyone even if you turned nameplates off and I would consider not offering a rez in that situation harassment yes. You can accuse me of grasping at straws and compare hunt trains to an instanced raid if youd like. If it makes you feel happier and mightier that those diddly darn randoms got what they deserved do go off. Noones taking that away from you.

I am arguing from the point that it can be seen as a ToS violation because it is intentionally done to hinder those players from doing the content and in most cases even announced in say chat a la "we will not revive you". And if that ever happened to me I would sure as hell report people for it.

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Originally Posted by YovelaLindswood

Lmao I know I do. I also leave things on grocery store shelves slightly askew. Even more diabolically When someone tells me to enjoy my meal I say thanks you too. They don't even have a meal to enjoy Muahahahahahahahaha!!!

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You fiend!
https://i.imgur.com/DzN1k0B.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aniise

Oof, Forked Tower really seems to bring out the worst of our so called 'great community'.

It's sad to see, but it's an issue that has developed over the years and has gotten worse and worse. And it's so ironic, too.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of us remember the great WoW Exodus during Shadowbringes. Where many of us didn't want those players to join our 'nice, peaceful' community.
Because their game was supposed to be ultra toxic, casual unfriendly, third party programs were everywhere and don't even start about parsing...

...and look at us now. Look at our community. At the state of the game. It's almost funny, really. We are what we accused WoW of being back then. We have become exactly that.

While toxicity exists in every MMO, and undoubtedly has always existed in 14 as well, it has become worse.
And the baffling decisions of the developers releasing content like this, that is clearly dividing the player base even more and provoking
arguments and disputes among ourselves is making it worse by the minute.

Reading this thread has shown me one thing however: None of us are happy about the status quo.
Casuals aren't happy. Raiders aren't happy (even though right now they are on the favored side of the coin, at the moment, however.). And still, we blame each other.

OP, personally, I don't think you did something inherently wrong by joining content that is free to join if yoiu meet the requirements. I can also understand the frustration of the raid group, however.
Still, being frustrated should not result in griefing or insults.
The devs need to step up their game to create an environment that doesn't pit players against each other.
So far, sadly, they have failed at this task...

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Im honest FFXIV was always toxic if you look deeper, we were never better then WoW, the difference was we couldnt actually say something because look at the ToS which Kasumii posts, i mean even saying someone he should repair his Gear is a violation against ToS wtf? So we had this kind of silent Toxicity, kicking people without saying something or just leaving the Group after 1-2 Pulls. Then with the recently Things like Chaotic you could be toxic without violating the ToS like I open the Group, I deceide which Person i wanna have in it, so people just started to dont care anymore about the ToS which is good because lets be real some points a laughable, i mean like i said you can get reported for asking someone to repair the gear, weak ass game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neclord

There is more to society than rules. We are not robots. We are human beings. There is also basic human courtesy. This would involve having the social antenna to recognise if a group is occupying a space with a clear objective/purpose.

In the case of our back and forth. Yes, it would be disruptive to set up a picnic in the middle of the field where 20 people are playing football - even if the letter of the law grants you the right to do so.

I'd recommend against engaging in the most law-abiding disruptive behaviour humanly possible in IRL public spaces though. You'd have more than rogue tankbusters and polite requests to leave to worry about.

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Joining in with this content makes us another football player just the same as the other football players. Yes setting up a picnic would be disruptive which I guess is akin to playing badly on purpose but this is not what has happened here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic.

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And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears

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I don't think there's any hope for solidarity since everyone has already been stabbing each other in the back over peanuts since early Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That's easy. Don't do it, let the content languish and die as it deserved.

But then that's been the problem with this playerbase for a long time now, isn't it?

"Ugh, this tastes awful and I think it's actually making me sick." *Pays to gulp down another rancid spoonful anyway.*

Instead we have people trying to "force" the content to work via third-party methods and giving Square-Enix exactly what they wanted; People clearing the content so that means its working fine. I'm not sure the Discord groups realize that they're not admonishing Square-Enix for their mistake by engaging with the content, but are in fact giving them a pat on the back for their "effort".

You know it too, you know damn well they're going to take these agonizing successes as their own success and that they don't need to change anything. "But the Live Lettter!" We are banking on a MAYBE here, that's how far things have degraded, or more importantly... IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THIS WAY TO BEGIN WITH.

And that's the funniest irony, and the one part where I do sympathize with hardcore players; They're so used to being beaten around and asked to be thankful, that the moment Yoshi-P raised the stick they immediately jumped and danced. Even as they're gritting their teeth and pulling their hair out over the whole process they just keep on dancing, hoping and praying it gets better "eventually".

Well... take a long hard look at how much casuals have been hoping and praying, we can tell you right now how that ends up.

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears... but instead a part of the playerbase saw it as another way to flex and dunk on others even as they screamed and whined about how much they hated trying to do it. Quite the amusing social test actually.

"You can sit this content out and help the casuals in getting it fixed for everyone, or do the content as-is ensuring nothing likely changes if it means the casuals get nothing yet again."

And whew, look at which choice got the most votes! Though its hardly a surprise, we saw the outcome over Chaotic. So yeah, that's why I don't buy for a second that any hardcore player or Discord group just wants to be buddy-buddy with me because I've seen TWICE NOW how they'll crawl over glass to keep the gate shut tight.
+++



And we can't even blame it on the WoW players coming over here and "infesting" our community because they've all long since left to go back to WoW. This is 100% us at our "finest".

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hear hear!