Market Wards, enough is enough

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

I suggest you think of whats going to happen to the market ward system when servers have more than 1000 players, or are we fine having 5 different battlecraft wards and potentially even more crashing?

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Considering everyone telling me they'll quit if there's no AH put in place, I'm not worried about crossing the 1000 player bridge just yet. It's months away at best. At no time did I say the Wards are perfect and don't need constant attention to work optimally. Quote me where you got that implication.

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You see, I've listed reasons that the current system is better for the economy by make it ridiculously hard for RMT (or any player driven corporation) to run a monopoly on goods.

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Lol I can run a monopoly on goods, I even have enough gil to do it. The Wards don't stop RMT, hell they don't even slow them down...there's a search feature isn't there? that means there's room for manipulation. The only way to stop monopolization of goods is for congress to pass laws against it, and being that this is a game you'd be hard pressed to get that to happen. The Wards have no redeemable qualities about them, they are cumbersome, they require much more out of you (from putting stuff up for sale to buying stuff) for a lot less in return. I'm sorry, but no matter how you slice it up, the wards stink and will get worse. A Menu system is much better, call it whatever you want, Auction House, Vendor, whatever; as long as it has no NPCs involved and it does the job better.

Shai first of all please quit trying to get me into a fruitless discussion with you. It would help if you learn to simplify your responses. I'm not here to argue with people personally. I am here to voice my opinon, and the opinion of my family, friends, and LS that feel the same. I don't owe you any explanation. I think when the majority votes for something that speaks for itself. I see your arguement and I do NOT agree. I don't want to make the MW better. I want an Auction House. Are you related to Kilta?

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Originally Posted by Shai

Considering everyone telling me they'll quit if there's no AH put in place, I'm not worried about crossing the 1000 player bridge just yet. It's months away at best. At no time did I say the Wards are perfect and don't need constant attention to work optimally. Quote me where you got that implication.

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It's irrelevent who said it, it's a fact that the MW capabilities are going to rapidly diminish as the player base increases due to its design. They already get full.

I want a real answer how this is going to be solved in the long term, that is what their decisions have to revolve around if they want any staying power.

It's not fruitless to list reason an AH would help the game.

I'm telling you, it's the only way SE is going to implement it - if it will make the game better.
All I'm asking is for ANY OF YOU to tell me how an AH would be better than a functioning Ward system.

Instead you resort to stalling, changing the subject and insulting me. GG.
Whining, crying, complaining, threatening to quit aren't going to change things.
It's also not a Democracy. Polling player interest doesn't set game changes in stone. (Thank God).

If you want SE to implement an AH, come up with reasons it will work better.
That is all. Not going to drag an "argument" out for pages.

I'll come back in a few days and see if you came up with anything or if it's the same old crying and whining and threatening. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Shai

The bottom line is that if you want an Auction House you should start listing real reasons it is better than a Market Ward. You see, I've listed reasons that the current system is better for the economy by make it ridiculously hard for RMT (or any player driven corporation) to run a monopoly on goods. This is good for everyone. It's a benefit to the economy where the Auction House had failed.

Auction House could be designed to "trustbust" but we already have a Market Ward.

Stop saying "I want one" and start listing explicit reasons why one would be better. You shave off 30-60 seconds of your time finding/placing an item. I get that much, but it's not a good trade off for me to just hand over the economy to RMT exploitation. Some people pointed out a laughable list of pros for AH that could all be achieved by a Market Ward system.

Why build a redundant system when the current one is capable of functioning the same way, or better overall for the economy (at the cost of a small amount of convenience)? That's what the real issue should be.

You want one isn't an argument. No one cares about that, including SE.
What does an AH provide that makes you want it and why can't the Wards facilitate that same need?

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Would you like to list the advantages of the NPC model over the NPC-less model? Or refute the points I made regarding the large overhead incurred and its scalability problems? Or provide feasible fixes?

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Originally Posted by Shai

EVE has an entirely different model. One that I'm not entirely familiar with except for the 2 outdated links you keep posting over and over and over and over like they explain anything.

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lol

I post them because they are relevant and do explain a lot.

Take a look at this too, while you're at it.

http://www.legitisk.com/category/market_bot/

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Originally Posted by Shai

I'm not saying an Auction House can't do what a Wards does. I'm saying the Wards is already doing it. Why change it? Why not just make Wards function correctly and not waste countless months re-designing a redundant system?

Can you answer that?

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Well, since the problems with the market ward system run really really deep: problems with displaying of numerous NPCs, memory issues, lag issues, organization issues, coordination issues, server stability issues, unnecessary server strain issues, etc.

You present the argument as a choice between two things:

1. "make Wards function correctly"

2. "waste countless months re-designing a redundant system"

As if those are exactly how the issues are presented. The team has had nearly a year since alpha and the wards, while slightly improved, still have a lot of problems functioning properly. This is not a good track record for guessing how much longer it will take to "fix" the ward system.

They not only need to implement changes into item transaction programming, they also need to fix latency issues, and game graphic engine and memory issues.

Do you really think it's gonna be that simple?

Do you really think it would be easier than setting up a menu only, text only, item transaction database for players, which is what this "AH" would be in its simplest form - A market ward system like we have now, just without any NPCs, and letting players just buy directly from the item search.


Just consider for a moment the possibility that scrapping the market ward system for now and putting in place a menu-based item exchange interface might actually be the course of action that takes less time and effort.

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Originally Posted by Shai

It's not fruitless to list reason an AH would help the game.

I'm telling you, it's the only way SE is going to implement it - if it will make the game better.
All I'm asking is for ANY OF YOU to tell me how an AH would be better than a functioning Ward system.

Instead you resort to stalling, changing the subject and insulting me. GG.
Whining, crying, complaining, threatening to quit aren't going to change things.
It's also not a Democracy. Polling player interest doesn't set game changes in stone. (Thank God).

If you want SE to implement an AH, come up with reasons it will work better.
That is all. Not going to drag an "argument" out for pages.

I'll come back in a few days and see if you came up with anything or if it's the same old crying and whining and threatening. Good luck.

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The reason SE should implement anything in the game is for the players. You know the ones that will pay to play. The reasons for and against an Auction House have been posted over and over. But guess what? The majority want an Auction House. No amount of arguing is going to sway that fact. The Market Wards are not what most players would like. I don't know why SE can't implement the few simple things players are requesting; such at Auction House, Linkshell Management Options, Mog House. Ignoring what the players want though is not going to win them more fans.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

some stuff

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You make a good point, but what else do you suppose is considered?
You think SE has "Because Gracious will play Guild Wars" on the table?

The issue before SE is multi-faceted but breaks down (in my opinion) to ...

1. Can we fix the Wards to function at expected capacity and efficiency?
2. How long would an AH take and how much of the game would have to wait until it was done?

If the answer to #1 is yes, why bother with #2?
No one has answered me yet. Still changing the subject and deflecting responsibility.

No matter how much or how loud Gracy cries "because players want it" is not a viable argument.
Nothing should be added to the game simply because players want it.
Things should be added to the game because they make the game better.

Edit: Honestly, be back in a few days. I just replied cause RH had a good point and I thought maybe with some prodding a productive conversation could ensue. Time will tell. ^^

Personally, sadly, I think Shai's comments are basically how I think SE would answer me. It doesn't matter what the fans want. It doesn't matter what the majority wants. They are going to do what they are going to do. When I first started playing I really liked the game except for a few issues. And after the poll, I found out those are the same issues other players felt needed to be fixed. It's almost 8 months now and there is still not much content, no AH, no linkshell management options. I've been rooting them on but I'm so completely disappointed to hear they aren't working on an AH. The Market System is so flawed. And someone responded above give me a reason for an AH.... well I guess the fans don't count here because that's what they asked for and have been ignored.

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Originally Posted by Shai

You make a good point, but what else do you suppose is considered?
You think SE has "Because Gracious will play Guild Wars" on the table?

The issue before SE is multi-faceted but breaks down (in my opinion) to ...

1. Can we fix the Wards to function at expected capacity and efficiency?
2. How long would an AH take and how much of the game would have to wait until it was done?

If the answer to #1 is yes, why bother with #2?
No one has answered me yet. Still changing the subject and deflecting responsibility.

No matter how much or how loud Gracy cries "because players want it" is not a viable argument.
Nothing should be added to the game simply because players want it.
Things should be added to the game because they make the game better.

Edit: Honestly, be back in a few days. I just replied cause RH had a good point and I thought maybe with some prodding a productive conversation could ensue. Time will tell. ^^

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Please share your ideas on how to fix the following problems with MW:

crashes
slower gaming machines being at a disadvantage
repeated forced zoning
slow searches
penalties for selling multiple item categories
ward limits

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Originally Posted by Shai

So you are saying it's better because it's slightly faster and you stand in one spot.
Go read some of my last 4 posts.

I know lots of people don't care about handing over the reins to RMT, but I do and so does SE.

Give me another reason AH is better than it's marginally faster and you don't have to walk 50 yalms.
You want SE to listen to you, I suggest you all think of something they haven't and fast.

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u didnt read the end of my post when i said blind greased up loyalist get the ignor list.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

Personally, sadly, I think Shai's comments are basically how I think SE would answer me. It doesn't matter what the fans want. It doesn't matter what the majority wants. They are going to do what they are going to do. When I first started playing I really liked the game except for a few issues. And after the poll, I found out those are the same issues other players felt needed to be fixed. It's almost 8 months now and there is still not much content, no AH, no linkshell management options. I've been rooting them on but I'm so completely disappointed to hear they aren't working on an AH. The Market System is so flawed. And someone responded above give me a reason for an AH.... well I guess the fans don't count here because that's what they asked for and have been ignored.

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Sad but I agree too it does seem that the players are being ignored this one dude seems to represent SE's answers thus far.
They want the game to make it but only if they can do it the way they want to dispite of what the fans want.
Sometimes all these letters and polls seem to be so fake i'm like is this really what ppl say is important lore and story, quest ect not battle armoury and market system...

Then it seems they find the one needle in the hay stack that likes the crap they are pushing and thats the poster boy, this guys is an idiot but i think yes you said it right, what he is saying is probably the arguement you would get from SE and if that is true this game wont make it.
Its not just one person that wont play guy dont get it twisted.

Atm its free so yeah ok ppl will deal with it but when they say pay and its not something you dont like... ppl dont usually give away hard earned cash for a product they are not content with...
It would just be bad buisness to not pay attention they have witnessed that already.

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Originally Posted by Shai

The issue before SE is multi-faceted but breaks down (in my opinion) to ...

1. Can we fix the Wards to function at expected capacity and efficiency?
2. How long would an AH take and how much of the game would have to wait until it was done?

If the answer to #1 is yes, why bother with #2?
No one has answered me yet.

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You would bother with #2 even if the answer is 'yes' because #2 would take less time to implement, is not reliant on more drastic game engine and server memory performance issues, and it can service more players at once and provide a means of economic exchange that is faster and more convenient than the market wards while at the same time not being a boon to RMT as you seem to think it would be.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You would bother with #2 even if the answer is 'yes' because #2 would take less time to implement, is not reliant on more drastic game engine and server memory performance issues, and it can service more players at once and provide a means of economic exchange that is faster and more convenient than the market wards while at the same time not being a boon to RMT as you seem to think it would be.

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Never mind the fact that RMT thrives in a game where players are frustrated with unintuitive, difficult mechanics or that they're tenfold more organized and capable than your average player at using (and abusing) any market system; the only thing that's important in a game is for it to be low on, or free of RMT even if you drive away 99% of your customers.

AH is overated

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Originally Posted by Physic

AH is overated

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MW is barely-functional garbage. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

MW is barely-functional garbage. What's your point?

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market wards are different, that is all, people need to get over this BS they seem to have, they wanted different, they got different, now they want is back the way it was..... sorry but you dont get both.

Market Wards (I will say it again.... ) will work, but they just need some more refinement, a lot of the whiners on this forum seem to want everything now now now, well to bad, things take time, coding and debugging take time......

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

market wards are different, that is all, people need to get over this BS they seem to have, they wanted different, they got different, now they want is back the way it was..... sorry but you dont get both.

Market Wards (I will say it again.... ) will work, but they just need some more refinement, a lot of the whiners on this forum seem to want everything now now now, well to bad, things take time, coding and debugging take time......

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Barely-functional is indeed different from good. But no amount of refinement will make them good, because (for the millionth-and-one time) the design is fundamentally flawed. You can't fix that.

So basically now we have Group A(thinks the market wards can still be greatly improved) vs Group B(MW are fubar, move on)? Hmm, I never minded the MW, I can find what I need quickly. Not sure what others are talking about when they say it takes an hour. But if they can't fix the crashing and improve in other areas the only solution left is to scrap it.

My confidence in them fixing it is dwindling.

When you need to buy 8 different items for 1 recipe, how long does it take you?

Because it'd take me at least 15 minutes or so. Which is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Leeloo

So basically now we have Group A(thinks the market wards can still be greatly improved) vs Group B(MW are fubar, move on)? Hmm, I never minded the MW, I can find what I need quickly. Not sure what others are talking about when they say it takes an hour. But if they can't fix the crashing and improve in other areas the only solution left is to scrap it.

My confidence in them fixing it is dwindling.

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I'd be okay with SE leaving MW in and adding a separate, no NPC, window UI based system. Neither system would die, they would just complement each other.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'd be okay with SE leaving MW in and adding a separate, no NPC, window UI based system. Neither system would die, they would just complement each other.

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Yea I should've included that option in my previous post.

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When you need to buy 8 different items for 1 recipe, how long does it take you?

Because it'd take me at least 15 minutes or so. Which is ridiculous.

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And yea I can see that being annoying. One of many things in this game where you may not realize it during, but suddenly you notice it's been a few hours and you don't feel you've done a whole hell of a lot.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Barely-functional is indeed different from good. But no amount of refinement will make them good, because (for the millionth-and-one time) the design is fundamentally flawed. You can't fix that.

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I wish one of you would enlighten the rest of us with this fundamental flaw you are mentioning. A person not liking to zone to pick up their junk is not a fundamental flaw, it is a preference.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I wish one of you would enlighten the rest of us with this fundamental flaw you are mentioning. A person not liking to zone to pick up their junk is not a fundamental flaw, it is a preference.

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Forced excessive zoning, penalties for selling multiple types of items, and hardware limitations and crashes are not features or preferences or whatever you want to call it. They're LIMITATIONS, because having to render every shop as an NPC is taxing on server and client hardware, and it's a bad design in terms of usability, organization, and intuitiveness.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Forced excessive zoning, penalties for selling multiple types of items, and hardware limitations and crashes are not features or preferences or whatever you want to call it. They're LIMITATIONS, because having to render every shop as an NPC is taxing on server and client hardware, and it's a bad design in terms of usability, organization, and intuitiveness.

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Besides the crashing, you are talking about preference, in this case yours. Preference does not a flaw make.

As far as the crashing go, servers crash. They need to fix how much the wards crash. However, that is hardly an argument to scrap it. The game servers crash too. I don't see anyone arguing to scrap the game because of it.

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Originally Posted by Dizmo

When you need to buy 8 different items for 1 recipe, how long does it take you?

Because it'd take me at least 15 minutes or so. Which is ridiculous.

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never understood why someone thinks that items in a game should just appear in thier inventory with no involvement or cost. Games mirror real things, there is nothing real where you have instant transmission of items upon buying them. While because it is a game they are going to lower or diminish real time things, Each player of the game decides what they think is enough. Some people would rather that you could teleport directly to every encounter in battle, other people think that traveling and having a world with monsters in it that you have to actually travel to is better. It depends on the person, nobody is intrinsicly right or wrong.

But imo, the market wards has more potential for growth and making merchanting an interesting mini game, whereas AH is the equivalent of making battle more text based. Essentially if you hate merchanting, then some version of AH is your answer, maybe with various controls to try to reduce exploitation, if you enjoy merchanting and immersion in the merchanting world then you probably would prefer some version of a Market system, maybe bigger or more extravangant, with specific things, but you want them to build on that system. Make no mistake though, the perfect instant item see every item created, and every item sold and every item cost AH can not coexist with the market wards, unless it has a heavy tax. So Id rather see the MW which has the potential of becoming a sprawling town with tons of items, shop advertising, shop building, management than an AH which has the potential of becoming a wall of text.

simply a matter of perspective

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I wish one of you would enlighten the rest of us with this fundamental flaw you are mentioning. A person not liking to zone to pick up their junk is not a fundamental flaw, it is a preference.

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They've been stated many many times already.

One of the biggest ones being that the servers and whatever process is running them can't handle all the NPCs in one area, despite the fact that hardly anyone plays this game. How are they supposed to remedy this when they release the PS3 version and expect the population to grow again?

Another flaw is just the fact that the NPC-based system doesn't grant any significant benefits over a purely menu-based system. It's just slower and prone to bugs due to server issues and game engine issues.

The fact that server congestion and game engine problems are even negatively contributing at all to the issue of economic transactions is a huge red flag. In what sane universe does our economic activity and marketplace get all screwed up because graphically, the game can't render enough NPCs at once?

The main engine of economic activity (market wards) is intimately tied to a whole host of other problems (graphics insufficiency, server congestion, server memory, NPC rendering, etc) that it shouldn't even be associated with in the first place. It needlessly relies on those systems to stay alive, and when any one of those things destabilizes, the whole thing comes crashing down.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Besides the crashing, you are talking about preference, in this case yours. Preference does not a flaw make.

As far as the crashing go, servers crash. They need to fix how much the wards crash. However, that is hardly an argument to scrap it. The game servers crash too. I don't see anyone arguing to scrap the game because of it.

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No, sorry, you've been duped into thinking that these limitations are features of this system, and that they're optional or desirable.

Penalties for selling in the wrong ward were instated in order to coerce people to place their retainers in the right ward for organization purposes. if the shops didn't have to be rendered, there would be no need to organize them by ward, and there would be no need to penalize for selling in the wrong ward. Excessive zoning is another limitation, because servers and clients cannot handle so many NPCs and PCs in such a small area. Ward limits on the amount of retainers were created because of this.

There is no feasible solution for market wards. If server populations ever fill out to FFXI levels (4000 players), you can expect at least 8000 retainers. The amount of server infrastructure to handle that kind of load is ridiculous. If the server populations fill out even more, to levels of popular MMOs like WOW or Aion or RIFT, where you have 10000+ players per server, it's going to be a nightmare to work with market wards.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

They've been stated many many times already.

One of the biggest ones being that the servers and whatever process is running them can't handle all the NPCs in one area, despite the fact that hardly anyone plays this game. How are they supposed to remedy this when they release the PS3 version and expect the population to grow again?

Another flaw is just the fact that the NPC-based system doesn't grant any significant benefits over a purely menu-based system. It's just slower and prone to bugs due to server issues and game engine issues.

The fact that server congestion and game engine problems are even negatively contributing at all to the issue of economic transactions is a huge red flag. In what sane universe does our economic activity and marketplace get all screwed up because graphically, the game can't render enough NPCs at once?

The main engine of economic activity (market wards) is intimately tied to a whole host of other problems (graphics insufficiency, server congestion, server memory, NPC rendering, etc) that it shouldn't even be associated with in the first place. It needlessly relies on those systems to stay alive, and when any one of those things destabilizes, the whole thing comes crashing down.

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How do we know what is crashing the wards? How do we know it is the NPCs? Did SE tell us this? All I see in this thread is a lot of assumption and a lot of people yelling about what they want. This thread does not deliver on facts.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

No, sorry, you've been duped into thinking that these limitations are features of this system, and that they're optional or desirable.

Penalties for selling in the wrong ward were instated in order to coerce people to place their retainers in the right ward for organization purposes. if the shops didn't have to be rendered, there would be no need to organize them by ward, and there would be no need to penalize for selling in the wrong ward. Excessive zoning is another limitation, because servers and clients cannot handle so many NPCs and PCs in such a small area. Ward limits on the amount of retainers were created because of this.

There is no feasible solution for market wards. If server populations ever fill out to FFXI levels (4000 players), you can expect at least 8000 retainers. The amount of server infrastructure to handle that kind of load is ridiculous. If the server populations fill out even more, to levels of popular MMOs like WOW or Aion or RIFT, where you have 10000+ players per server, it's going to be a nightmare to work with market wards.

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Just because I have a different opinion than you, doesn't mean I've been duped. It just means I disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Just because I have a different opinion than you, doesn't mean I've been duped. It just means I disagree with you.

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Except mine isn't an opinion, it's an objective analysis of a system, backed up with examples.

We're done here. You have no counter argument besides "that's just, like, your opinion man".

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Except mine isn't an opinion, it's an objective analysis of a system, backed up with examples.

We're done here. You have no counter argument besides "that's just, like, your opinion man".

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That's the argument you used. How come you can use it and Wynn can't? ; ;

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Originally Posted by Wynn

How do we know what is crashing the wards? How do we know it is the NPCs?

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What else could it be? The only difference between the wards and everywhere else is that it contains a huge population of NPCs that contain their own database of inventory, geographic location variables, and are subject to interaction, functions, and calls- stuff that normal NPCs are not burdened with.

We've already seen the problems that the game engine has rendering player characters and NPCs. We experience the popup all the time.

Do you really believe that a purely menu-based, text-based market interface system that performs the exact same functions as the current market wars system would crash just as often?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

What else could it be? The only difference between the wards and everywhere else is that it contains a huge population of NPCs that contain their own database of inventory, geographic location variables, and are subject to interaction, functions, and calls- stuff that normal NPCs are not burdened with.

We've already seen the problems that the game engine has rendering player characters and NPCs. We experience the popup all the time.

Do you really believe that a purely menu-based, text-based market interface system that performs the exact same functions as the current market wars system would crash just as often?

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Like everyone else here, I don't know what is causing the crashes. I certainly hope they can fix it though. But I really don't believe throwing the baby out with the bathwater is the solution here.

Besides the crashing, I have no problem what so ever with the market ward. Actually I take that back. If they add the ability to indicate +1s and the like that would be great. But again this is just my opinion and my personal preference. I really don't want to see an AH like we had/have in XI.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Except mine isn't an opinion, it's an objective analysis of a system, backed up with examples.

We're done here. You have no counter argument besides "that's just, like, your opinion man".

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the equivalent of why you like AH applied to the rest of the game would turn it into go to an npc counter, select your enemy from a list of all available enemies, choose level, and click to kill it. Its fast, its effecient, its also a pretty empty system. The reason you prefer it is because you dont like those aspects of gameplay and want to diminish it. This is fine, but some people actually like merchanting/selling etc, many people want to see it grow even more, with shop customization, bigger more complex wards, player owned shops, advertising, etc. The perfect AH that you want kills any possibility of this stuff mattering.

So its really just your opinion, on which type of game you would prefer to see created, and the level of immersion you want for that aspect of the game, maybe people share your opinion, maybe they dont.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I really don't want to see an AH like we had/have in XI.

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Most of the people aren't arguing for an AH just like the one in FF11.

Most people are arguing for a system that performs the exact same things that we get from the Market Wards now, except without the hassle of NPC retainers.

Basically, as if you were able to just buy and sell straight from the item search window. Leave everything the same, just get rid of the NPC retainers until they fix game engine stability and server load issues.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Except mine isn't an opinion, it's an objective analysis of a system, backed up with examples.

We're done here. You have no counter argument besides "that's just, like, your opinion man".

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*Examples backed by assumptions

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Like everyone else here, I don't know what is causing the crashes. I certainly hope they can fix it though. But I really don't believe throwing the baby out with the bathwater is the solution here.

Besides the crashing, I have no problem what so ever with the market ward. Actually I take that back. If they add the ability to indicate +1s and the like that would be great. But again this is just my opinion and my personal preference. I really don't want to see an AH like we had/have in XI.

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Guess what? We don't have to. Everything that Market Wards does now can be replicated in an NPC-less system that's infinitely faster, better, more intuitive, more convenient, and easier and cheaper to maintain.

You know what it would look like? www.amazon.com. No auctions there and items are sold from user created shops. Want more examples? Neopets' player shops. Examples in another MMO? Dragonica's shop system where you can search, buy, and create a shop from a single interface.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Guess what? We don't have to. Everything that Market Wards does now can be replicated in an NPC-less system that's infinitely faster, better, more intuitive, more convenient, and easier and cheaper to maintain.

You know what it would look like? www.amazon.com. No auctions there and items are sold from user created shops. Want more examples? Neopets' player shops. Examples in another MMO? Dragonica's shop system where you can search, buy, and create a shop from a single interface.

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and a lot of people dont want to play amazon.com the game, but even amazon.com doesnt instantly give you the items you purchase