A Ninja without Throwing...

[Bulrogg]

I've offered many suggestions through out the NINJA adjustment threads you and 12ozmouse are trolling.

I was the one that suggested Job Trait: Shuriken Attack which would work similar to a Monks: Kick Attack. If the trolls would have not been so small minded and quick to argue with Akujima and others that are supporting an adjustment to throwing, what ever that adjustment may be.... maybe they would have noticed it among the other ideas that have been suggested. All in all we are all guilty of spamming these threads and not contributing in every single post made. So does that mean it's time to lock the thread then?

[Greatguardian]

I've offered many suggestions through out the NINJA adjustment threads you and 12ozmouse are trolling.

I was the one that suggested Job Trait: Shuriken Attack which would work similar to a Monks: Kick Attack. If the trolls would have not been so small minded and quick to argue with Akujima and others that are supporting an adjustment to throwing, what ever that adjustment may be.... maybe they would have noticed it among the other ideas that have been suggested. All in all we are all guilty of spamming these threads and not contributing in every single post made. So does that mean it's time to lock the thread then?

Akujima is the only one here who could even possibly be said to be Trolling. You're most definitely misusing the term. I know you're the one who mentioned the Kick Attack JT, but you're also the one who's said the exact same thing for the past 5 posts just quoting yourself without stopping to read just why what you're saying is so completely obnoxious.

Think of FFXI's programming as a huge pyramid, like the old food pyramid:

At the base you have the Engine, and the massive amount of fundamental code designed in order to make the game function at all. Trying to tweak this is quite literally impossible. It cannot be done by the current Development staff. They don't have the resources, the time, the money, or the people.

One rung above that, you have the still-massive amount of code dealing with the actual mechanics of the game world. Tweaking this is impossible for all intents and purposes. Doing so would be akin to creating a new game, rather than adjusting an existing game.

Another rung above that, you have the moderately sized amount of code dealing with how all of those mechanics interact with one another. The job system, fundamental monster/player relations, etc are here. This can be changed, but it takes a lot of work and it's very easy to screw it up and cause an unintended break in the game. The last time this has been tweaked to any significant degree was the 2H update.

etc etc etc a couple more rungs

Finally, you have the Toolkit rung where the Devs can implement new JA/JT/WS to existing jobs and tweak the power of existing JA/JT/WS. This is what the Devs actually work with for 99% of player-related updates and adjustments. If we want something to be done about any particular job, this is the rung we need to expect them to use. It is easy to access and adjust, but it is fundamentally limited by all of the previous rungs.

The kind of Throwing adjustment you are asking for requires massive changes to the very bottom rung, as well as to the rung directly above it. Do you see why that would cause a problem? Yes, "SE can change their game however they want to". They could turn it into an RTS if they want. That does not mean they have the time, manpower, or will to make a completely new game out of FFXI's base code just to appease role-players. Sorry. It's not going to happen.

Not a single suggestion on the face of the planet that requires adjusting the game's Engine or fundamental code is anywhere near constructive because it is simply too far out of the realm of possibility to ever be considered by the Developers. They do more harm than good by taking attention away from legitimately constructive suggestions.

[Fyreus]

That's not a bad idea Bulrogg... infact i like it if it was also a milti hit

Another idea would be to make a JA with like a 15 hit shuriken shower or sinply give ninjas a third option: Keep shuriken the same but simply put it in the ranged slot like the ungerang and allow it to hit multiple times. That way you can go in and melee or choose to use a multi hit ranged attack ad we already know about the ws stuff... There are so many ways to adjust but i do understand the limitations on developer time even if they release stuff quarterly.

*edit* To the above poster: I think the best approach is to make a sub ja class setup such as dnc uses to approach this issue or go naruto blue mage style and make shurikens as physical spells. Although i think the real issue is misplaced speghetti code or no one wanting to recompile an engine that probably didnt have an intuitive scripting language or plug in (think torque tga with ts but hard coded even when lua was out lol) so since we don't know what's binding SE's hands we can only speculate.

[Bulrogg]

Adjusting throwing was never for the RP aspect for me. I was only hoping it would be adjusted to bring it back to where it was before the 75+ limit break. I remember when tossing a shuriken out on a run away mob was about the same as using 'Provoke'. I rarely sub /war anymore unless I am trying for red staggers. It would be nice to have throwing back to where it was so tossing a shuriken would land solid hate again. Now I've never parsed or anything like that so I don't know the exact amount of hate it did generate but it would always return the mob back to me.

I also thought Sange could be fixed to allow for Crits. Maybe even some merit-able Job Traits that effect Sange; imbue it with a Provoke or Gravity effect or what would really be nice is if you could merit it so shadows weren't consumed and maybe an unlimited shot for the one sange. That way one could swap Nokizaru in Sange then swap back to Qirmiz for no TP loss (from swap).

Also I'm not saying this needs to be an immediately addressed issue, just something to hope for on the way to 99.

[Greatguardian]

Adjusting throwing was never for the RP aspect for me. I was only hoping it would be adjusted to bring it back to where it was before the 75+ limit break. I remember when tossing a shuriken out on a run away mob was about the same as using 'Provoke'. I rarely sub /war anymore unless I am trying for red staggers. It would be nice to have throwing back to where it was so tossing a shuriken would land solid hate again. Now I've never parsed or anything like that so I don't know the exact amount of hate it did generate but it would always return the mob back to me.

I also thought Sange could be fixed to allow for Crits. Maybe even some merit-able Job Traits that effect Sange; imbue it with a Provoke or Gravity effect or what would really be nice is if you could merit it so shadows weren't consumed and maybe an unlimited shot for the one sange. That way one could swap Nokizaru in Sange then swap back to Qirmiz for no TP loss (from swap).

Also I'm not saying this needs to be an immediately addressed issue, just something to hope for on the way to 99.

The bolded is the biggest problem with people's misconceptions about Throwing. The fact of the matter is it was simply never good over level 50. Not because of the lack of Shuriken, though that did not help matters. But because of the increased availability of Haste. As is, NIN should always be able to hit 25% Haste and 45% Dual Wield minimum no matter what. This alone causes Melee DoT to soar beyond what Throwing could ever possibly reach within the confines of the game mechanics. Adding in outside sources of Haste just widens the already huge gap.

Also, just an aside, you can already swap Throwing items without losing TP. It's why Dart pulling was miles ahead of using a Crossbow on Thf at 75. TP in Bomblet, swap to dart, throw, swap back to Bomblet.

[Bulrogg]

I wasn't trying to compare throwing to meleeing DMG hate generation. I know that melee > throwing. I was trying to provide an example of how I used throwing prior to +75. It was like using provoke when a mob would move out of melee or ability range. I could toss a shuriken and as the mob was coming back to me start casting a spell, rather then trying to chase it down.

I was aware of the no TP loss but someone (not sure who or what thread as throwing in being discussed in a few) had shunned swapping gear for those slots due to loss of TP, so I included it just as a reminder that swapping ammo doesn't cause a loss of TP.

[wish12oz]

I wasn't trying to compare throwing to meleeing DMG hate generation. I know that melee > throwing. I was trying to provide an example of how I used throwing prior to +75. It was like using provoke when a mob would move out of melee or ability range. I could toss a shuriken and as the mob was coming back to me start casting a spell, rather then trying to chase it down.

This is your main problem, you don't even know what you're trying to argue.

It was the damage the shuriken did that made the mob come back to you.

Nothing else.

When you have low or no haste and low damage katanas early in the game, shurikens far outdamage meleeing, which is why they were useful. This is not the the case later in the game, and is why they suck. So yes, you were comparing throwing to melee damage for purposes of gaining hate, you just didn't realize it.

If the trolls would have not been so small minded and quick to argue with Akujima and others that are supporting an adjustment to throwing, what ever that adjustment may be.... ?

Whatever that adjustment may be?

Ya, right.

Here's whats gonna happen if Akujima gets his way.
SE would add new shurikens, and nothing else. Maybe they would even be cheap, but the game's mechanics would not change, and throwing would STILL be garbage, and he would make 10 more threads bitching that throwing sucked. Beyond that is the fact that SE would of wasted their time adding garbage to the game when they could of spent time making real improvements.

I'm not for wasting SE's time, or adding garbage to the game so idiots can RP as whoever from previous FF games. Add good, useful job abilities/traits/items or add nothing.

[Bulrogg]

I did not know you could melee at 25 yalms from the mob... Oh you can't?

I know the example I was trying to explain. Yes it was the spiked damage from the shuriken that returned the mob to me and unless you've found a way to melee from 18-25 yalms then you are doing ZERO damage. I have been and am still saying, "when a mob would run away, a simple shuriken toss would be the same as using provoke." Yes, you lose melee DMG output from tossing that shuriken but if the mob is out of range you are doing ZERO damage. Yes, melee damage far outputs any damage that throwing could ever do... but if the mob you are fighting is out of range your melee is doing ZERO. It is when the mob would go out of range that I would make use of throwing to return the mob to me without having to give chase.


I said "what ever that adjustment may be" because different people are looking for/suggesting different things through out all the threads this is being discussed.


EDIT: I said 25 yalms at first because that's the max distance for throwing iirc. I said 18-25 yalms because I would attempt make use of an ability(15)/spell(18) to regain hate first.

[wish12oz]

I know the example I was trying to explain. Yes it was the spiked damage from the shuriken that returned the mob to me and unless you've found a way to melee from 18-25 yalms then you are doing ZERO damage. I have been and am still saying, "when a mob would run away, a simple shuriken toss would be the same as using provoke." Yes, you lose melee DMG output from tossing that shuriken but if the mob is out of range you are doing ZERO damage. Yes, melee damage far outputs any damage that throwing could ever do... but if the mob you are fighting is out of range your melee is doing ZERO. It is when the mob would go out of range that I would make use of throwing to return the mob to me without having to give chase.

Mobs only run away to other people at the early stages in the game when you have low haste/dw. If they run away from you now, you're doing something incredibly wrong. At the early stages in the game you do bad melee damage, and you should be using shurikens to keep hate/win the parse. Doing the most damage is the easiest/best way to tank. When mobs run away early in the game, and you throw shurikens at them, they do a lot of damage, and make the mob come back, because they raise your enmity higher then everyone else's, because of previous actions enmity and all the new enmity gained through the damage.

The comment wasn't about whether you're doing 0 damage because you're not meleeing since the mob is far away. It's about game mechanics, and how they work early in the game, and later in the game. If mobs run from you at 70+ and you use shurikens to bring them back, I pity you and everyone you play with. If you don't understand that last comment, like the other one, be sure to ask and I will come back and explain it completely to you.

[Greatguardian]

Shuriken are nerfed to hell at anything over 6' anyways, so there's really absolutely no point in pulling the "Range" argument. If you're trying to actually use Shuriken, you are going to do so from Melee range.