A Ninja without Throwing...

[Darwena]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I want exposive AoE Shuriken that deal 9999 DMG to all surounding mob to compete with WAR's cleave ***.

[Fyreus]

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

I still believe that adding a ja with sub ja classes instead of throwing wses is in the realm of possibility. The problem would be SE's history with adjustment hit or whiff syndrome when the player base makes a suggestion (my favorite is still the ban of any and all 3rd party tools and gave us a half baked windower when we asked for bot bans lol).

[Shoko]

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?



Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

[wish12oz]

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

If you know of my comments about Tiamat, maybe you should look for the math I posted about fighting Tiamat with PO, and why no RDM would have enough MP to do it the way they wanted. And yes, the game is always more fun when when you don't have to play with people who cannot keep up with what the new best strategies are, and how to use them effectively.

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

This is entirely wrong, you do not need anything but gear, haste spell and marches to hit the attack delay reduction cap.
Keep in mind that any good bard will have at least a +2 march horn and +2 hands for march+1, and if they don't, through minimal effort you can acquire both of them for the bard if it's someone you hang out with a lot.

BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total):
Advancing is 10.9375%
Victory is 14.0625%
We'll say 11 and 14 to make it easy.

Should that bard have a Ghorn, or after the update should they add a +3 march instrument, which they will eventually, just look at how every other song is getting a +3 instrument. (except ballad)

BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total):
Advancing is 12.5%
Victory is 15.625%
We'll say 12 and 16 to make it easy.

Base dual wield of Ninja at Lvl 90 is 35%.
Haste spell is 15%
Gear haste caps at 25% (and is very very very easy to reach)
gear + spell + both marches+3
25 + 15 + 11 + 14 = 65% haste

gear + spell + both marches+4
25 + 15 + 12 + 16 = 68% haste

so 65% haste for march+3, 68% haste for march+4

If we assume you have normal everyday ninja gear along with base dual wield.
Base DW 35%
Suppanomimi 5%
AF3+2 head 5%
af1 body 5%
This brings DW from 35% to 50%

Adding 50% DW to 65% haste bring your delay reduction to 82.5%, 80% is the cap

So as you can see, with normal gear ninja easily has access to, and a bard with march+3, which is also easy to get, you can easily exceed the delay reduction cap.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

This is also incorrect, here's why:

The only RNG I know has a gandiva, so we'll be using the gandiva for comparison, and assuming an ACC rate of 100% because I don't feel like applying 95% acc to everything, because that will just tip the scales in the NIN's favor even more.

Kannagi+kamome delay is (210+180) 390.
Apply 80% delay reduction to that, and you get 78.
Lets look at attacking now, 2 attacks per 78 delay, 54% of the time you get an extra attack, so we can safely say, you get 3 attacks per round. (apoc 15% TA, eponas 3% TA (18% TA) eponas 3% DA, brutal 5% DA, /war 10% DA (18% DA) so we do 18+18+18 = 54.
So ninja comes out to 3 attacks per 78 delay time.

Gandiva+arrow delay is (490+90) 580.
For the sake of this arguement we're going to assume the rng is standing far away, and only shooting, so he's going to have a 580 delay between attacks.

-------math from here down is incorrect, see below post for correction-------
Now, lets say we have a 50% rapid shot rate (which is way more then you have) So 50% of the time the bow delay is reduced to 0. so we can take away half the 490, to make it 245, 245+90 = 335.
Now lets apply all the snapshot availible to the 245, Lets say you have a 5% body, 3% belt and 5% hat...... (mirke, impulse, af3+2 hat, and Im not even sure the hat is 5%) and velocity shot is 10%.
5+3+5+10 = 23% snapshot
245 x .77 = 188.65
So we'll say your new delay is 188+90 for 278.
So RNG gets 1 attack for every 278 delay.

278 divided by 78 is 3.5641etc
we'll say 3.5
So basically, ninja gets 3.5 attack rounds per RNG attack round under the best possible circumstances for RNG.
At 3 hits/round NIN gets (3.5x3) 10.5 attacks per a RNG's 1 attack.
Looking at just melee attacks, 1 shot from a RNG needs to do as much as 10.5 attacks from a ninja, for the RNG to be on even ground.


Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage, so we'll leave WS damage comparisons out of this. But we will talk about WS frequency.
A good RNG will almost have a 4 hit inside abyssea, so we'll say they have a 4 hit.
My NIN gets just under 5tp/hit, and 11 from WSing. Which means I need 22.25 hits between WS's, at 3 hits/round this means I need 7.5 rounds of attacks between WS's.

So which happens faster? 3 rounds from a RNG, or 7.5 rounds from a NIN?
If we look at the thread higher up, it says we get 3.5 rounds on nin per round on RNG, so in those 3 rounds for RNG to get 100 TP, a NIN gets 10.5 rounds.
What this means is a NIN actually gets MORE WS's then a RNG in the same amount of time.

How much more?
well, if NIN gets 10.5 rounds and needs 7.5 every time a RNG gets 100TP, that means in the time it takes a RNG to get 200TP, NIN gets 21 rounds, which is -almost- enough to have gained 300tp. If the RNG wasnt mashing on his ranged attack macro as fast as possible and getting every shot off as soon as possible, the NIN would actually reach the 22.5 rounds needed to get 300 tp.
So basically, for every 2 WS's the RNG gets, the NIN gets 3.

What does all this mean?
It means every RNG WS needs to do 1.5x as much damage as the NINs, and Every attack the RNG makes needs to equal 10.5 attacks by the NIN for the RNG to stay even in damage with the NIN, and this is assuming everything is in the RNGs favor, 50% rapid shot, a 4 hit, max snapshot, and very little fumbling between attacks.

So, while actually playing the game is it even remotely realistic for a RNG to keep up?
Absolutely not.
But feel free to provide your own indept analysis to counter me, I welcome the chance to debate this with you.

[wish12oz]

Corrections:
So when I made the above post I was unsure of how much rapid shot activates, and there was no information anywhere when I looked. Because of this, I just gave it a 50% activation rate, because I knew NIN would still come out way ahead.

After some digging I found the activation rate is 10% for the job trait, and you gain 5% from merits, and there's some pants you can wear, entois trousers, and that's it. Everything else with rapid shot on it is not worth using because it's in the same slots as snapshot. If we assume the pants are 5% (no one seems to know what it is, but 5% is more then generous) this would bring rapid shot up to 20% activation rate, instead of the aforementioned 50%.

It was also pointed out to me I made a slight mistake when I did the snapshot calculating. I need to take the snapshot from 490, then add it to what the new rapid shot delay total is, and divide by 2 to get the cumulative effect of both.

(490*0.8)+(490*0.77)=769 /2 = 384
392 + 377 = 769 /2 = 384

Add arrow delay to this new bow delay with snapshot/rapid shot factored in, and you get (384+90) 474.

474 divided by 78 is 6.076923.
So ninja actually get 6 attack rounds per RNG attack round, or 18 attacks per 1 attack by a RNG.

Recalculating WS frequency means RNG still needs 3 attacks to reach 100tp, and during those 3 attacks NIN gets 18 attack rounds in this time, or 54 attacks. In my last post we figured out NIN needs 22.5 attacks per WS (assuming 4 tp/hit, 11tp return from WS)
Which means for every 1 WS RNG gets, NIN gets 2.4 WS's, this is WAY MORE then originally proposed.

New conclusion now that I know the real rapid shot values:
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

I made a new post instead of editing the old one because I made a mistake in it, and it seemed wrong to simply change it like nothing happened, because I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
But my last comments still stand.
Is it realistic to think a RNG can come anywhere close to a NIN's damage?
Absolutely not.
And I look forward to your in-depth analysis of why I am wrong and debating this issue with you, since you said:

a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg

[Scynte]

A good way to make shuriken on par with returning throwing weapons might be to add a recycle effect that only works for shuriken. They have done this for ninjutsu already in the form of Ninja Tool Expertise, so it should be possible to do. Since there are only a few types of shuriken in the game, each can be modified to have this new characteristic.
This way, shuriken can still be expensive, but they will last longer. They can adjust the recycle % effect to preserve balance. Also, depending on the effect they'd decide to go with, only a stack or two would be all that is needed for an outing.
This alone won't fix the problem, but it'll make using shuriken actually worthwhile.

[Charismatic]

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

[wish12oz]

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

Can you provide parses or are you just loleyeballingit?
Because if you don't know, let me tell you a secret, loleyeballingit is never even close to accurate, parse or do the math manually or go away.

But the point still stands that-
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

Does your RNGs Jinshnus do 2.4x as much as the Hi's? And do each of his attacks hit for as much as 18 of the NINs?
I think not, but better luck next time, and if they do, you're welcome to provide parses, or the damage calculations to prove it.

Here's some links you might find useful while proving me right:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...hysical_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Base_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...n_Skill_Damage

Small edit: gonna provide some numbers to better illustrate my point about the damage RNG needs to do to keep up.

Lets say the NIN's Blade: Hi's only average 2500, which is obnoxiously low (my average is 3700~ inside abyssea) @2500 damage, Jishnus needs to do 6000 average to keep pace. For my average, the RNG would need to average 8880 damage per WS......

If the ninja only hits for 50, crits for 100, 75% crit rate, this puts you average per hit @ 87, so a RNGs ranged attacks need to do 1575 to keep up. I'm using really, really small numbers here for the NIN, and you can see how absurd it is to even think a RNG could keep up. My NIN is usually around 130 damage for normal hits and 270 crits, which puts my melee average at 235, which means the RNGs melee attacks would need to do 4230 damage each to keep up.

[Charismatic]

Who said anything about 2.4x damage or anything like that? You said Hi and Jishnu's do about the same damage... Jishnu's Radiance for my friend DOES average about 6kish on most stuff. I just did a dom ops party with him in Altepa tonight and he would one shot dolls 90% of the time. From 6-7k damn near every time. An ISL meant 4 dead dolls within like 30 seconds because sekkanoki, jishnu's, jishnu's, barrage, EES, jishnu's... and the best part is he's not even done with his WS build. I don't care about whatever else you're talking about but Blade: Hi does not do about the same damage as Jishnu's Radiance.

That's just not something you're going to get from Blade: Hi.

[wish12oz]

Who said anything about 2.4x damage or anything like that? You said Hi and Jishnu's do about the same damage... Jishnu's Radiance for my friend DOES average about 6kish on most stuff. I just did a dom ops party with him in Altepa tonight and he would one shot dolls 90% of the time. From 6-7k damn near every time. An ISL meant 4 dead dolls within like 30 seconds because sekkanoki, jishnu's, jishnu's, barrage, EES, jishnu's... and the best part is he's not even done with his WS build. I don't care about whatever else you're talking about but Blade: Hi does not do about the same damage as Jishnu's Radiance.

That's just not something you're going to get from Blade: Hi.

I could do that with Hi on lame weak dolls too~

And math says RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then NIN's and ranged attacks need to do 18x more damage then a ninjas attack for the RNG to do as much total damage as a NIN.