A Ninja without Throwing...

[wish12oz]

It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

That was simply a statement of fact, for how most of the community acts and thinks. Why something like this would upset you, I have no idea. You need to come to terms with that fact that people are not interested in bad jobs. That is the whole point behind everything I say, add good stuff or add nothing. Lets say they add new shurikens, and they have 120 damage, and they're super cheap to make. Well guess what! that won't fix the problem, throwing will still be crap, and no one will use it. If you don't fix the entire problem, you fix nothing. It would be a waste of SE's time to add junk no one would use, because they could use that time spent adding junk no one cares about, to add good content, or fix the real problem.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job"

Bulroggg and Shoko are the ones who came in here and crapped up the thread, I dunno if I would call them elite when they don't even understand simple game mechanics. I also do not remember saying that, please point to where I did.

I make good points,

No, you really don't, that's why I argue against all of them. If you made a good point I would let it stand.

Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

Currently there is no point to having RNG in the game, which is why they should fix it in a way to make it useful, so that there is a point to having it in the game.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

I agree. Maybe you should try and come up with some solutions and post them, then we can talk about if they would work or not.

It doesn't seem to matter anyways, because the norm is that you phase out "crappy" jobs from the roster. If a job doesn't put out what you want it to, does it matter if the person playing it is having fun or not? It's just like what saevel said in another thread... "The whole WAR, MNK, SAM, BRD, BRD, RDM mentality" where players pick and choose jobs based on efficiency and speedy battles...

This is how it works, bad jobs don't get used. Instead of complaining about it, and saying you should play it cause its fun. Maybe you could learn mechanics, learn why it's bad, then come up with good solutions to make it useful. If all the jobs were on an even playing field, which you find fun would be the only reason anyone had to play a job. This is what I want to happen. All the melee jobs doing about the same damage, in slightly different ways, and having slightly different utility functions, so that whichever you find fun to play, and mob mechanics for what you are fighting are the only factor in picking what to play.

You may think I'm calling you out or something, but I highly doubt you even bring RNG to events, especially inside Abyssea, and especially if that person has another "better" DD job such as WAR, SAM or MNK. And sure it's cool that you want to win quick and grab as much loot as possible. But that same style of play is also teetering the game out of balance.

Game's always been out of balance. Originally everyone RNG burned everything, then BLM burned, later DRK zerg, later still melee zerg. I remember DRG being the best melee, then RNG, then WAR NIN and MNK, then SAM, now MNK NIN and WAR again. It's how the game works, the only constant has been that WAR has never been bad, it's always been near or at the top.

Ranged attacks themselves are getting worse and worse, according to your standards I'm guessing. Not to mention the fact that there isn't many situational bosses that require ranged DD to be there, which was another thing I've been asking for. The whole "Spank and Tank" gameplay gets boring after awhile for some people. And the idea behind this thread was to implement different styles of play, not to be harassed about how idiotic we are because we can't beat a boss in 5 minutes instead of 7.

Again, you're completely off the mark. Ranged attacks are getting worse and worse because of the increased access to haste every melee is getting. Haste is what makes ranged attacks useless, and nothing else. It's not an opinion of mine, its math, and math is fact. 2+2 always equals 4, and 4 is always bigger then 3, that's the way it is.
And if playing melees is boring to you, try leveling a mage job, or tanking. Or do what I do, main tank and main heal AT THE SAME TIME. It's pretty hard sometimes, lulz. Especially when you have 10 bad melees attacking what you're tanking and feeding it tons of TP while you're trying to keep shadows up, this sort of endeavor might change your mind about bringing bad melees to things.

Karb/Wish/GG, you do what pleases you. But don't expect everyone else to take a back seat to efficiency because their favorite job has become "obsolete" so to speak.

Most of the community stops playing things when they become obsolete. How many RNGs do you see running around? I remember when every other melee was a RNG, how many SAMs do you see right now? How many ninjas did you see before abyssea, compaired to now? The minority doesn't care about efficiency, the majority care and want to be good.
YOU ARE THE MINORITY, not me.

[Karbuncle]

Sometimes i forget how beast NIN is :|

Hmmm, Well there goes that idea too. I'm trying not to break the game when i do this, But lets see. Maybe starting at level 10, NIN could get a Shuriken Mastery type Job Trait. Each level would do something like this.

Lv.15 *Increases TP Gain, R.acc, Critical hit rate/damage, Reduces Delay, and Increases Damage of Shurikens
lv. 30
lv. 45
lv. 60
lv. 75
lv. 90

VI Tiers.
*Shuriken Damage: Increases Damage based on your level (your level x1.5) I.E if you're level 40, it adds 60DMG to your shuriken. level 90 adds 135.
*Delay Reduction. Starts at 10%, increases relative to Dual wield.
*Increases Critical hit rate by 5%, Damage by 5% per level. total 30% Each.
*Ranged accuracy: increases R.acc by 5 each tier (total 30)
*Increases TP Gained per shuriken by 7 Each level (Total 48TP Per Shuriken)

This is breaking the game in my eyes, and even i think it wouldn't be enough.

Wish, I brought this up before Aku's last post. Look at this, How do you think it would fair?

Also, Take into account You could just take advantage of this every ~5 minutes with Sange. IT wouldn't make throwing useful entirely, But if this trait was introduced, and You could use it with Sange, It'd make throwing useful every 5~20 minutes. yes? (I forget Sange's recast, I know its something super-retardedly large without 5/5 merits)

Could get ~250TP Per Sange with that update depending on Shadows. Also

忠実な忍 - Lv. 80 Job Trait.
(Loyal shinobi)
*Augments Sange. Enhances Sange.

*Enhances - No longer Absorbs Shadows
*Augments - Gives Sange 50% Chance to "Rapid Shot"

[Akujima]

YOU ARE THE MINORITY, not me.

I never denied this. Yet history has shown that those who bring about change, never follow the norm.

[Greatguardian]

Oh god it's more cliche crap rather than a single constructive post from Akujima.

Moving on, @Karb, those look like pretty boss-tier adjustments. Though, personally I'd think a boost to Ranged Attack may be preferable to Critical Hit rate/Dmg (or in addition to, if we're talking purely hypothetically). Ranged Critical Hits are a straight 1.25x multiplier rather than a 1.0 boost to pDif, so they're incredibly lackluster compared to Melee Critical Hits.

Delay Reduction may be better served as Snapshot/Rapid Shot as well, since Shuriken already have such low delays and I'm unsure if it's even possible for a JT to mitigate the 120 Ranged Attack Animation Delay. Because of that innate delay, I don't know if it'd be technically possible at all for Shuriken to ever beat Melee'ing in a group scenario. But, with buffs like those, depending on their finalized numbers and implementation, it could pull Throwing up enough to be at least marginally useful Solo.

[Karbuncle]

Oh god it's more cliche crap rather than a single constructive post from Akujima.

Moving on, @Karb, those look like pretty boss-tier adjustments. Though, personally I'd think a boost to Ranged Attack may be preferable to Critical Hit rate/Dmg (or in addition to, if we're talking purely hypothetically). Ranged Critical Hits are a straight 1.25x multiplier rather than a 1.0 boost to pDif, so they're incredibly lackluster compared to Melee Critical Hits.

Delay Reduction may be better served as Snapshot/Rapid Shot as well, since Shuriken already have such low delays and I'm unsure if it's even possible for a JT to mitigate the 120 Ranged Attack Animation Delay. Because of that innate delay, I don't know if it'd be technically possible at all for Shuriken to ever beat Melee'ing in a group scenario. But, with buffs like those, depending on their finalized numbers and implementation, it could pull Throwing up enough to be at least marginally useful Solo.

Think it would be like Loxley Bow, The Animation basically doesn't finish before the arrow shoots.

[Greatguardian]

Think it would be like Loxley Bow, The Animation basically doesn't finish before the arrow shoots.

Really? That's pretty cool, actually. I have COR rather than RNG so I've never really messed with anything faster than Peacemaker. I have the faster Scars zone gun but I've never really found a reason to use it.

[wish12oz]

Anything that would increase throwings damage beyond 6 melee swings worth of damage and tp gain makes it on par with meleeing.

Karb: With your JT suggestion it would depend on how much damage the shurikens you can get would be. But if they were decent for what it should be now, maybe 130 ish damage, I'm sure it would keep up with meleeing, maybe surpass it a bit if you don't have a bard. Can't be more exact without being super specific with what katanas people are using and gear all that, but around 130 should be sufficient, maybe a little lower, like 110 could work too. The only downfall it would have would be stack size and cost to make for whatever new shurikens they would add to go with it.

I completely agree with you too, adding that JT exactly how you put it, is what would really be required along with good shurikens to make throwing viable, and it just looks amazingly overpowered and wrong, so I highly doubt SE would seriously consider it. But then, DRK just got 60% attack and 25% JA haste for 3 min out of every 4min 10sec, so who knows.

Lastly:

I never denied this. Yet history has shown that those who bring about change, never follow the norm.

Seriously? I wrote you a book and that's all you have to say? Nothing constructive or useful, just trying to act like you're some amazing Godsend like America's founding Fathers when you haven't contributed a single noteworthy thing to this thread? grow up.

[Akujima]

Seriously? I wrote you a book and that's all you have to say? Nothing constructive or useful, just trying to act like you're some amazing Godsend like America's founding Fathers when you haven't contributed a single noteworthy thing to this thread? grow up.

Oh I read your entire post.

And really? Did you fail history class or something? Or could it be that you just hear what you want to hear, and leave out what is distasteful to you. You might want to use a different example, someone proper, like Ghandhi, John Lennon or Rosa Parks. And I'm not comparing myself to those people at all, just simply saying that this "minority" plays a more significant role when it comes to positive change.

The thing I did agree with, is that all jobs should do pretty much the same amount of damage, but just be played differently. And I'll say again, that the game should be a "Rock, Paper, Scissors" style, when it comes to bosses and mobs, where in some cases it's good to have ranged attackers, etc. WAR, even from an RP standard when being the topmost melee, just makes sense. But it shouldn't completely overpower every other melee job, as to make them entirely worthless.

Nor is it a right thing, when the popular belief is that since WAR is the "best" melee, therefore everybody who wants to be useful, should go level WAR this instant. But guess what? If there is NO dynamic gameplay and NO circumstantial battles, that kind of stuff WILL happen. Ranger is a Ranger because they shoot from a distance, but if there is no mobs that require being engaged at from afar, what the hell is the point of a Ranger.

[Shibayama]

My goodness gracious. I'm not even a NIN and I had to respond to this.

You compared your want of NIN's using shuriken VS using their melee potential to "playing chess like a smart person cuz it requires strategy" and "Being a fencerider and doing what everybody does because you can't think for yourself."

So lets continue with the chess motif shall we? What you are suggesting is like refusing to make use of your queen because "The queen is OP and everybody uses the queen! I'm just gunna use my pawns because in Through the Looking glass Alice was a pawn and she managed to win the chess game!!" Choosing to make use of your strongest assest is what makes a cunning player. This isn't yugioh - you can't pull a win with your kuriboh card if you believe in it hard enough and people aren't dumb or uninspired for wanting to use something strong and reliable.

That being said: Perhaps if there were a new, easier to afford shuriken that was used at the start of fights to work as a debuff of some sort that compliments the NIN's natural DPS I think that would be fine. But I think at this point yearning for this to be like final fantasy III where Throw was the nin's big damage is beyond wishful thinking. You're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that in final fantasy 11 NIN's didnt get throw.

They got gil toss.

[Akujima]

So lets continue with the chess motif shall we? What you are suggesting is like refusing to make use of your queen because "The queen is OP and everybody uses the queen! I'm just gunna use my pawns because in Through the Looking glass Alice was a pawn and she managed to win the chess game!!"

Okay... For the last time...
This is like trying to explain quantum physics to a chimp...

Each piece in chess is unique and has its own set of movements and tactics. Albeit the Queen may be only one and may be the "strongest" in your eyes, but any decent chess player worth their weight in salt, knows how to use every piece to their advantage, even the so called "lowly pawn". Of course you should obviously protect your Queen, and sacrifice other pieces to carry out your strategy, but not blindly.

WHM is the "Queen of Healing", WAR is the "Queen of Melee". FFXI in the past (before the endgame elites started hardcore discrimination of job/subjob combos) worked like this...

RDM Won't ever surpass a WHM in healing, but it can bring to the table other things that WHM cannot, such as high enfeebling and unique buffs. SAM couldn't out damage a WAR in straight melee, but it brought the possibility of more skillchains, in effect helping BLM's in potentially MB'ing for more DMG. THF didn't do spectacular in melee, but they in turn complimented tanks with TA, helping them with extra enmity, and also treasure hunter for more loot.

So the point of this "Chess Metaphor" is that each piece compliments one another, and works together to achieve the goal. I'm sure you could totally win and smash your opponent if every piece you had was a Queen, but then where is the challenge in that? If I'm not mistaken, that's the whole idea of a game. To be challenged and work together as a team to overcome that challenge. Neither am I saying that each piece should be a pawn.

What I'm saying is that, each job should have a major strength in something different from other jobs. Throwing might not get fixed, because FF has been declining in innovative gameplay. People stopped using SC's, then came the bias against certain jobs/subjobs, fixed camps, merit parties that consisted of the same jobs over and over, in the same locations. Now we have Abyssea, where a RDM's refresh doesn't truly matter anymore, because with Atma's and Equipment, mages have enough MP regen, along with INT/MND/CHR to keep up on their own.

Slowly and slowly, the colorful battle system, (that in my opinion made FFXI the classic it is) is slowly vanishing, in favor of the "solo" mindset. You can solo to 90, you can solo Abyssea, you can solo so many things now... And that's great and all, but it really takes away from what makes a good online RPG... I suppose that anyone who has a clue what I'm talking about, is extinct now or have moved on to other underground games.

Possibly it's my attachment to XI and the nostalgia that comes with it. But just because throwing sucks, doesn't mean that there isn't some way to bring it back from the dead. Just because ranged attacks seem useless, doesn't mean that there isn't a way to revive their usefulness. This endless quest for fame, power and dominance has blinded us from the simple pleasures. The same simplicity that made FFXI addicting in the first place. How awesome it was to pull off a skillchain with a friend, and throw in a well timed magic burst right after. Or lining up for the THF to get in their SATA for some serious burst damage between pulls.

Culture is nostalgia that you hold onto. If you don't want any culture, then discard it. If you do, then revive it and embrace it. And once you have, maintain it.

Sayonara.