A Ninja without Throwing...

[wish12oz]

If it was anything even close to that, you would said what they were by now.

[Greatguardian]

If he can't take 5 minutes to write a coherent post with actual points and comprehension of other people's writing (read: not "Fight da power" bullcrap), I can't take 15 minutes to sit and listen to a random youtube link.

[Akujima]

If he can't take 5 minutes to write a coherent post with actual points and comprehension of other people's writing (read: not "Fight da power" bullcrap), I can't take 15 minutes to sit and listen to a random youtube link.

Look. This thread is done. What needed to be said was said, and if that information fell on some deaf ears... oh well. It's not in my agenda to convince you two of creative concepts, while you preach mathematics to me. Albeit the same mathematics that are in the game (continually assuming that we don't know) with no intent on figuring out how to improve ranged attacks (Even for RNG... NIN's throwing would come much later). You make thread tags about how I whine and cry about NIN's not having throwing, but the difference between you and me, is that I won't make 800+ posts across hundreds of threads bashing other peoples ideas because it makes me feel good.

I'm done with this thread and I'm sick of having to be pessimistic to get my point across, because that is simply the only way you communicate (this is true, because the few posts in which I have tried to be positive, you've just $#!% on me). So go back to your farm-fest, grind for hours upon hours for some half decent gear/cruor and beat some bosses that aren't very hard because your stats are ridiculously high. And sure it's fun for awhile, but after you guys start taking that $#!% too seriously, people like us come out and say something about it.

So yea, that's it. I'm out. It's basically like Bullrogg said... Pointless repetition isn't going to make you realize what we're talking about, but rather it's something that someone eventually figures out for themselves.

[wish12oz]

I'm done with this thread

I wonder how many times you'll say this before you really are.

Creative concepts are not creative or useful when no one will use them, in this case, if they do bad damage and are really expensive like throwing.

[Karbuncle]

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

[Fyreus]

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

I still believe that adding a ja with sub ja classes instead of throwing wses is in the realm of possibility. The problem would be SE's history with adjustment hit or whiff syndrome when the player base makes a suggestion (my favorite is still the ban of any and all 3rd party tools and gave us a half baked windower when we asked for bot bans lol).

[Darwena]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I want exposive AoE Shuriken that deal 9999 DMG to all surounding mob to compete with WAR's cleave ***.

[wish12oz]

Corrections:
So when I made the above post I was unsure of how much rapid shot activates, and there was no information anywhere when I looked. Because of this, I just gave it a 50% activation rate, because I knew NIN would still come out way ahead.

After some digging I found the activation rate is 10% for the job trait, and you gain 5% from merits, and there's some pants you can wear, entois trousers, and that's it. Everything else with rapid shot on it is not worth using because it's in the same slots as snapshot. If we assume the pants are 5% (no one seems to know what it is, but 5% is more then generous) this would bring rapid shot up to 20% activation rate, instead of the aforementioned 50%.

It was also pointed out to me I made a slight mistake when I did the snapshot calculating. I need to take the snapshot from 490, then add it to what the new rapid shot delay total is, and divide by 2 to get the cumulative effect of both.

(490*0.8)+(490*0.77)=769 /2 = 384
392 + 377 = 769 /2 = 384

Add arrow delay to this new bow delay with snapshot/rapid shot factored in, and you get (384+90) 474.

474 divided by 78 is 6.076923.
So ninja actually get 6 attack rounds per RNG attack round, or 18 attacks per 1 attack by a RNG.

Recalculating WS frequency means RNG still needs 3 attacks to reach 100tp, and during those 3 attacks NIN gets 18 attack rounds in this time, or 54 attacks. In my last post we figured out NIN needs 22.5 attacks per WS (assuming 4 tp/hit, 11tp return from WS)
Which means for every 1 WS RNG gets, NIN gets 2.4 WS's, this is WAY MORE then originally proposed.

New conclusion now that I know the real rapid shot values:
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

I made a new post instead of editing the old one because I made a mistake in it, and it seemed wrong to simply change it like nothing happened, because I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
But my last comments still stand.
Is it realistic to think a RNG can come anywhere close to a NIN's damage?
Absolutely not.
And I look forward to your in-depth analysis of why I am wrong and debating this issue with you, since you said:

a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg

[Charismatic]

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

[wish12oz]

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

Can you provide parses or are you just loleyeballingit?
Because if you don't know, let me tell you a secret, loleyeballingit is never even close to accurate, parse or do the math manually or go away.

But the point still stands that-
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

Does your RNGs Jinshnus do 2.4x as much as the Hi's? And do each of his attacks hit for as much as 18 of the NINs?
I think not, but better luck next time, and if they do, you're welcome to provide parses, or the damage calculations to prove it.

Here's some links you might find useful while proving me right:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...hysical_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Base_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...n_Skill_Damage

Small edit: gonna provide some numbers to better illustrate my point about the damage RNG needs to do to keep up.

Lets say the NIN's Blade: Hi's only average 2500, which is obnoxiously low (my average is 3700~ inside abyssea) @2500 damage, Jishnus needs to do 6000 average to keep pace. For my average, the RNG would need to average 8880 damage per WS......

If the ninja only hits for 50, crits for 100, 75% crit rate, this puts you average per hit @ 87, so a RNGs ranged attacks need to do 1575 to keep up. I'm using really, really small numbers here for the NIN, and you can see how absurd it is to even think a RNG could keep up. My NIN is usually around 130 damage for normal hits and 270 crits, which puts my melee average at 235, which means the RNGs melee attacks would need to do 4230 damage each to keep up.