On Red Mage melee...

[saevel]

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate. The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice. The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

[Aurara]

Except COR was better because it did more dmg, gave better buffs and raised exp/hr.

[Eeek]

So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

The implication of this statement is that said hypothetical party already has one BRD. Otherwise, why would said party, assuming they wanted a real merit party, even consider inviting a 'lazy' supporting BRD? They'd instead invite a pulling BRD. If the party already had two BRDs, no sensible party would ever consider adding a 3rd BRD over a 3rd DD or a COR.

You're playing semantic games to backpedal away from an implied misstatement that 'a 2nd supporting BRD is less useful than an additional DD'. It's simply not true, especially at the Nyzul Mamool and MMJSP North camps where the 2nd BRD's support capacities from /WHM were more useful. Unlike Colibri, Mamool were definitely capable of dealing real damage.

And yes, it wasn't uncommon for the 2nd BRD to help pull in exceptional merit parties. Hell, even as a single BRD I intentionally and regularly linked mobs just to give myself an extra 5-10 seconds at camp. On that point, how does double pulling even relate to outside healers in the first place?

[Eeek]

This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

Sorry, it will be argued. Sure, RDM/NIN may approach 80% of a average DD, but they will never be in the same ballpark as real DDs that are well-geared and well-played.

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

[Deadvinta]

Giving RDM a Weaponskill with 4.0fTP, 30%STR/50%MND mod (Magical WS with INT mod is just all the better), Magical, element/Debuff based on current Enspell. But have it mod with TP.

I.e

100% - - - 200% - - - 300%
4.0 - - - - 4.5 - - - - - - 4.75

Secondly, a Debuff for the WS could Depend on the Element. I.E with "Enfire" it would inflict Plague, With Enwater it would inflict Poison, With EnStone it would inflict Slow, so on and so forth.

(Secondary Idea is optional)

Disregarding the en-spell association with this weaponskill idea, I think it would just be great if RDM got Sanguine Blade natively. Modifiers are STR MND and a very potent INT modifier.

[Supersun]

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.


You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

[Greatguardian]

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

Yes.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

Yes.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate.

Yes it is.

The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

No. Very much wrong. The Red Mage is not contributing 15% Defense Down from Dia 3. They are contributing the difference in potency between Dia 2 and Dia 3, which is (15% - 10.35% = ) 4.65% Defense Down. This does NOT equate to anywhere near the benefit of Minuets. You're also still assuming that a Red Mage can keep 80% pace with a heavy DD, which I am highly suspect of. See my parse on a previous page where a Corsair (a significantly stronger DD than RDM) parsed 50% of a WAR and 50% of a DRG in a fully buffed party.

The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Yes. These jobs are incredibly powerful buffers. Corsair can do more damage than Red Mage, while adding unique and powerful buffs and raising EXP/hr. Dancer can stack onto the DD's already high Haste levels and, potentially, cap them (25 + 15 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 80%). Red Mage's 4.65% Defense Down is not touching either of these numbers.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

This still relies on Red Mage being the only person in the entire Alliance with access to a single Dia spell. If there is even one White Mage, one Bard, one Scholar, or one Black Mage with Rdm or Whm sub, there will be Dia 2 on every monster already. If there isn't? That's a player problem. Red Mage is not the only mage job allowed to cast its enfeebles.

[Supersun]

(Nitpick: 4.65% defense down could technically beat 2x minuet given if there already enough defense down on the mob in the first place)

[Aurara]

Its not beating what cor buffs could do, or what haste samba would do for the party's overall dmg.

[Supersun]

Shits situational

...this just isn't that situation