On Red Mage melee...

[Hyrist]

Which is a major point to how far behind our performance has fallen.

Sadly, SE HAS factored our solo potential into the mix when we've talked about enhancing parts of our job. Mainly because this is one of those tired old arguments that keep getting pinned up every time Red Mage says they want something new. Again, I attribute most of the issues we currently have on Red Mage to the player base harping this job into the ground.

But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.

If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.

Seriha on another board mentioned benefitial stats for RDM depending on which element Enspell we would get. Which is mainly the self-buff way to go.

However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.

That would be utility, at least. But I'm no more happy that we get out preformed by WHM in the front line aspects than I was five years ago. So perhaps a more straight damage boost would be the better route.

[Duelle]

But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.

There's a difference between having utility in the front lines and it being the focus of the job. The reason I argue for more damage (through an increase to our Sword and Dagger rating, native access to more WS, and a buff to enspells) are because at the end of the day utility does not justify you having less DPS than the "real" damage dealers. I've been there before and it fell on its face until a very finely tuned boss showed up that required you to stack all buffs and debuffs you could on him. Which meant you and your melee build did not matter until that point alone.

If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.

As I've argued, front-line should be limited to cures alone. Your buffs are for you because you can and should be keeping yourself up when front-lining.

However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.

This should be more a trait attached to Enspells rather than a completely separate spell. Provided enfeebles get a facelift, you could have an enspell slightly increase potency of enfeebles cast by the RDM already on the target and renew their duration per hit. Once you hit the extra potency cap, you're basically renewing the duration of enfeebling effects on the target.

Rather than lessen TP gain, I'd like to see something that "breaks" or destroys some of the TP on the mob. Something like:

Froissement: Weak attack that reduces the TP accumulated by the enemy.

* Affected by main-hand accuracy.
* Requires Sword or Dagger in main-hand slot.
* I'd suggest it be derived from weapon damage x 1.5 or something like that, but the devs might want something a little more complex

[ManaKing]

This should be more a trait attached to Enspells rather than a completely separate spell. Provided enfeebles get a facelift, you could have an enspell slightly increase potency of enfeebles cast by the RDM already on the target and renew their duration per hit. Once you hit the extra potency cap, you're basically renewing the duration of enfeebling effects on the target.

Rather than lessen TP gain, I'd like to see something that "breaks" or destroys some of the TP on the mob. Something like:

Hate to dog on you but you just described COR and DRK. Both are really fun to play when you think of them like a RDM.

RDM/COR would have been awesome if we could use Quick Shot with a Bow. I would personally love Marksmanship on a RDM so that we could do that.

Absorb TP is a really good spell and very available to RDM. RDM/DRK is a lot of fun and I would advise anyone to try it out instead of just doing /DNC and /NIN.

One of the biggest problems that I have with RDM right now, is that if I wanted to play 'smart' I would be /NIN or /DNC, or just not play RDM at all. Both NIN and DNC have their overwhelming strengths because of how good dual wield is and shadows/sambas are just really good no matter what they are subbed on. But /DRK feels a lot more like what I always wanted my RDM to be. My DRK as well, for that matter.

I get really good magics, including a stun, the ability to gain TP on offensive magics, actual JAs, and bonus attack damage. You also don't feed as much TP as I do, but I can absorb it from the mob.

BUT You will out DPS me. My weapon skills may hit harder. If we both have an Almace, you win because you will get an offhand hit with your dual wield. I can throw all of my JAs, and I do and love doing it, and still get the higher WS damage. But I'll take half of my life in damage to do so and people won't think it is appropriate for me to use my own cures on myself.

[Duelle]

Hate to dog on you but you just described COR and DRK. Both are really fun to play when you think of them like a RDM.

Not sure I'm following you on that one.

The goal is to make melee relevant. The suggestion is tying it to enfeebling, which I am fine with. If you mean the renewal of debuffs, it'd actually make front-lining beneficial, which matches the goal. Froissement is actually a fencing term, which describes an attack that displaces the opponent's blade using a heavy grazing action. Thus knocking them off rhythm. Changement de Rythme would actually be a better name for the attack, but its too long. >.>;

As a DRK main, I'll also tell you I can tell the difference between absorbing TP from a mob and outright breaking the mob's TP. The latter happens to fit the enfeebling thing, if a little more directly than the other things RDM has in its list.

[Doombringer]

i mentioned "cripple" a few pages back as a way to save time and free up swings (it was basically an all in one enfeeb)

i suppose "en-cripple" would be even better.

[Hyrist]

FF8 had a similar debuff called Pain.

So I would suppose that a enspell version would be called En-pain.

An adequate name for where it would put the mob.

[Deadvinta]

After reading this, I became excited to go level Red Mage and build as much Melee as I can. But then I looked at the job trait Fencer and read that Red Mage doesn't get it... But BARD does. What are you thinking, Square Enix?

[Seriha]

Far as TP feed goes, I'd just be happy with a trait where, upon landing a crit, the mob has its TP reduced by some amount. This could be subject to resists, some mobs could even be immune to it, but the ideal effect should be that the RDM technically doesn't exist when it comes to the mob's TP growth, but they're still otherwise offering their damage. It's basically a subtle blow variant in that regard.

Even building on Enspells, continuous Enstone strikes could up Slow potency, Fire for Addle, and so on. It's not something completely without precedent if you look at COR's Quickdraw.

I'm still partial to my old idea of Enspells building toward a point pool we can invest in either offensive (stronger debuffs and nukes) or defensive (more potent buffs [See: Indirect Haste II] that last longer) boosts.

[Supersun]

Far as TP feed goes, I'd just be happy with a trait where, upon landing a crit, the mob has its TP reduced by some amount. This could be subject to resists, some mobs could even be immune to it, but the ideal effect should be that the RDM technically doesn't exist when it comes to the mob's TP growth, but they're still otherwise offering their damage. It's basically a subtle blow variant in that regard.

Only issue with that is outside of abyssea this trait will rarely ever activate since Rdm has crap for dex gear and will likely never even get CLOSE to where Dex-Agi matters.

[ManaKing]

Only issue with that is outside of abyssea this trait will rarely ever activate since Rdm has crap for dex gear and will likely never even get CLOSE to where Dex-Agi matters.

Maybe if you absorbed DEX and then absorbed AGI like i do, you wouldn't have that problem.