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  1. #361
    Player Runalin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    6
    Character
    Runalin
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 31
    I may not have ten paragraphs of discussion to contribute, but I just want to say, THANK YOU for this thread. I haven't been playing that long, to be honest - on and off for a few years, but altogether, only a few months - and I'm a low level RDM. But ever since I started the game, that was exactly what I wanted when I chose red mage. I absolutely love the class, but even at level 30, I find it hard to get a party when I'm playing melee. I don't want a staff so I can stand around in the back. I want to charge in with the shiny sword that my class is always pictured with, throwing out magic here and there and generally being awesome.
    (0)
    Last edited by Runalin; 06-06-2011 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #362
    Player Doombringer's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    365
    Quote Originally Posted by Runalin View Post
    I may not have ten paragraphs of discussion to contribute, but I just want to say, THANK YOU for this thread. I haven't been playing that long, to be honest - on and off for a few years, but altogether, only a few months - and I'm a low level RDM. But ever since I started the game, that was exactly what I wanted when I chose red mage. I absolutely love the class, but even at level 30, I find it hard to get a party when I'm playing melee. I don't want a staff so I can stand around in the back. I want to charge in with the shiny sword that my class is always pictured with, throwing out magic here and there and generally being awesome.
    i think this is a pretty good example of why we're all so tired of this. rdm is "sold" to us as one thing, then the playerbase demands we do something else with it.

    that's not the job i picked. if the job i picked doesn't ACTUALLY exist, then i'm just gonna stop playing.
    (1)

  3. #363
    Player Tamarsamar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    305
    Character
    Tamarsamar
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 95
    Everybody is worried about us potentially out-doing White Mages in the healing department, and personally, after ToAU, I can't blame them.

    Am I the only one, however, who's more worried about White Mages potentially out-doing us in the melee department?! Even more-so than the above (which is saying a lot, believe you me), in my opinion, this just plain should not even be thinkable!
    (1)

  4. #364
    Player Seriha's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    982
    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    It's not a matter of potential, they are, and they don't need an Empyrean weapon to do it. Heck, a good WHM can beat a scrub DRK or SAM.
    (1)

  5. #365
    Player Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    396
    Character
    Hyrist
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Which is a major point to how far behind our performance has fallen.

    Sadly, SE HAS factored our solo potential into the mix when we've talked about enhancing parts of our job. Mainly because this is one of those tired old arguments that keep getting pinned up every time Red Mage says they want something new. Again, I attribute most of the issues we currently have on Red Mage to the player base harping this job into the ground.

    But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.

    If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

    But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.

    Seriha on another board mentioned benefitial stats for RDM depending on which element Enspell we would get. Which is mainly the self-buff way to go.

    However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

    Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.

    That would be utility, at least. But I'm no more happy that we get out preformed by WHM in the front line aspects than I was five years ago. So perhaps a more straight damage boost would be the better route.
    (0)
    Last edited by Hyrist; 06-07-2011 at 02:51 AM.

  6. #366
    Player Doombringer's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    365
    i mentioned "cripple" a few pages back as a way to save time and free up swings (it was basically an all in one enfeeb)

    i suppose "en-cripple" would be even better.
    (0)

  7. #367
    Player Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    396
    Character
    Hyrist
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    FF8 had a similar debuff called Pain.

    So I would suppose that a enspell version would be called En-pain.

    An adequate name for where it would put the mob.
    (0)

  8. #368
    Player Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    658
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.
    There's a difference between having utility in the front lines and it being the focus of the job. The reason I argue for more damage (through an increase to our Sword and Dagger rating, native access to more WS, and a buff to enspells) are because at the end of the day utility does not justify you having less DPS than the "real" damage dealers. I've been there before and it fell on its face until a very finely tuned boss showed up that required you to stack all buffs and debuffs you could on him. Which meant you and your melee build did not matter until that point alone.
    If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

    But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.
    As I've argued, front-line should be limited to cures alone. Your buffs are for you because you can and should be keeping yourself up when front-lining.
    However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

    Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.
    This should be more a trait attached to Enspells rather than a completely separate spell. Provided enfeebles get a facelift, you could have an enspell slightly increase potency of enfeebles cast by the RDM already on the target and renew their duration per hit. Once you hit the extra potency cap, you're basically renewing the duration of enfeebling effects on the target.

    Rather than lessen TP gain, I'd like to see something that "breaks" or destroys some of the TP on the mob. Something like:
    Froissement: Weak attack that reduces the TP accumulated by the enemy.

    * Affected by main-hand accuracy.
    * Requires Sword or Dagger in main-hand slot.
    * I'd suggest it be derived from weapon damage x 1.5 or something like that, but the devs might want something a little more complex
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  9. #369
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    940
    Character
    Iocus
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamarsamar View Post
    Everybody is worried about us potentially out-doing White Mages in the healing department, and personally, after ToAU, I can't blame them.

    Am I the only one, however, who's more worried about White Mages potentially out-doing us in the melee department?! Even more-so than the above (which is saying a lot, believe you me), in my opinion, this just plain should not even be thinkable!
    You mean out doing us at everything right?

    OMG they can't proc blue except for light....which almost no one can....i mean we have tier 3 and most of tier 4....god we suck right now.



    As far as a super debuff, you just want bad breath. Just say you want bad breath. Yeah BLU also has bad breath, but w/e.

    I think that our enfeebling isnt the problem, because enfeebling isn't integral to the game anymore. You can just beat stuff up now and not worry about tactics because enemies aren't hard. Most mobs aren't capable of dealing with a NIN or a /NIN because shadows and evasion is extremely unbalanced. If you want to give us a reason to debuff, mobs need to be buff enough for other people to care. They currently are not, and certainly not in Aby.

    Look at what we actually got out of enfeebling post 75. Break and Addle. Addle actually works and continues to let RDMs throw mud in a mobs eye. RDM can almost completely counter any mage mob in the game, but plenty of other jobs can just beat them to death in less time. Something about us lacking damage. I still like Addle, i'm happy we have it.

    But Break is trash. It does nothing for me. It doesn't even debuff. I play RDM/DRK and I will never use break over stun. I would rather use sleep or sleep 2 as well because it might actually do something for me. Enfeebling as a whole has gone downhill, and I don't want the future of our job hinged on it unless something drastic happens that changes it.

    I mean think about it really quick, we are the best enfeeblers in the game? NO WE AREN'T! We don't have sleepga native and we dont have sleepga 2 at all. Sleeps save lives, everything else just slows down how quickly people will die. That is why other mages are still better enfeeblers than us and always will be.

    Look towards actual utility for RDMs. Enfeebling does not make us desirable.
    (0)
    Last edited by ManaKing; 06-07-2011 at 03:46 AM.

  10. #370
    Player Deadvinta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Adoulin
    Posts
    154
    After reading this, I became excited to go level Red Mage and build as much Melee as I can. But then I looked at the job trait Fencer and read that Red Mage doesn't get it... But BARD does. What are you thinking, Square Enix?
    (1)

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