On Red Mage melee...

[saevel]

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate. The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice. The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

[Eeek]

This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

Sorry, it will be argued. Sure, RDM/NIN may approach 80% of a average DD, but they will never be in the same ballpark as real DDs that are well-geared and well-played.

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

[Supersun]

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.


You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

[Eeek]

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.


You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

As soon as Wish and Aurara challenged Hyrist to a synced Level 75 parse, he must have hurt himself backpedaling as hard as he did. That's the problem with breeding poor ideas without a critical eye in an insular place like the Alla RDM Forum - most everything falls to pieces when exposed to reality and the scrutiny of outsiders. Even Starfox's revered parses immediately fell apart when examined.

And when a prominent melee RDM enthusiast was challenged to substantiate that forum's viewpoints in the real world (so to speak), he backpedaled hard enough to make heads spin. The oft-cited belief that 'a melee RDM can do 80% of the damage of a top-tier DD' is an incorrect belief based on Starfox's flawed parses, and Hyrist knows it. Even Starfox himself would be decimated in a fair parse against real DDs. He is clearly avoiding the inevitable - he must admit that he is wrong, or he must honorably face Wish and Aurara in that parse and be proven wrong.

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

[Supersun]

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

At the same time. I haven't been able to log in for the last couple of days myself. I know how real life matters can affect how often I play. Luckily, my final college class is now over so I should be able to play a bit more routinely now.

Even if he doesn't quite hit the 80% mark it'll be a lot closer then the 20% mark proposed earlier...

[Greatguardian]

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

Yes.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

Yes.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate.

Yes it is.

The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

No. Very much wrong. The Red Mage is not contributing 15% Defense Down from Dia 3. They are contributing the difference in potency between Dia 2 and Dia 3, which is (15% - 10.35% = ) 4.65% Defense Down. This does NOT equate to anywhere near the benefit of Minuets. You're also still assuming that a Red Mage can keep 80% pace with a heavy DD, which I am highly suspect of. See my parse on a previous page where a Corsair (a significantly stronger DD than RDM) parsed 50% of a WAR and 50% of a DRG in a fully buffed party.

The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Yes. These jobs are incredibly powerful buffers. Corsair can do more damage than Red Mage, while adding unique and powerful buffs and raising EXP/hr. Dancer can stack onto the DD's already high Haste levels and, potentially, cap them (25 + 15 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 80%). Red Mage's 4.65% Defense Down is not touching either of these numbers.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

This still relies on Red Mage being the only person in the entire Alliance with access to a single Dia spell. If there is even one White Mage, one Bard, one Scholar, or one Black Mage with Rdm or Whm sub, there will be Dia 2 on every monster already. If there isn't? That's a player problem. Red Mage is not the only mage job allowed to cast its enfeebles.