On Red Mage melee...

[Supersun]

Except rdm still couldn't put out the kinds of #'s you are saying, and i have done rdm/nin blau/joytoy on colibri, it doesnt work, lol.

Truth be told I don't know how a RDM would perform, probably in the 15-20% range if I had to make a logical guess(if that).

OBJECTION!!

[Aurara]

Lol you think you caught me contradicting myself? I never specified what colibri i was doing it on, but good going bro.

Edit: saying I did it on colibri was probably not smart on my behalf, but my statement holds strong, and i know the capabilities of a rdm, no snot like you who prides themselves on trying to outwit and fool a BG shark such as myself is going to do anything but dance around foolishly and go "teehee look at me i think i made them mad" gg bro.

[Doombringer]

you do realize that he's comparing himself to the SECOND bard, right? the first bard sings march and the second bard sings.....more march? no?


this isn't really a debate i wanted in on but it's like you're not even reading what you reply to...

[Aurara]

you do realize that he's comparing himself to the SECOND bard, right? the first bard sings march and the second bard sings.....more march? no?


this isn't really a debate i wanted in on but it's like you're not even reading that you reply to...

Taking a 2nd brd over a COR is pretty stupid.

[Greatguardian]

I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

Read: Both bards are pulling, the entire area is being cleared, melees are riding Hasso like good little boys and girls, and monsters are dead in 10 seconds tops. A distracted DD wouldn't even have time to pull out his weapon on every fight in a good party. And a RDM is supposedly able to handle near-constant casting while being able to draw their swords and deal 80% of the damage of a real DD?

Bullshit. I'd even venture to say that a RDM doing its support job properly would be running into severe MP issues if they were using a non-mage sub, completely ignoring the time lost trying to whack things. Going from /SCH to /NIN is a huge efficiency drop.

Edit: This too

Taking a 2nd brd over a COR is pretty stupid.

And a COR can pretty handily decimate a RDM on the parse. Example: Brd/Cor(me)/Nin(Noelel)/Mnk(Krispy)/Drg(Sasumi)/idkmage Greater Colibri parse. Krispy is a member of Excellence ls, so it's pretty much a given that he's high-end.





That's while being cheap and saving cards =/ and my Cor isn't even super high end to boot.

[Hyrist]

Could you guys, you know, take this debate where it matters, like back to 2008?

Let me end this right here in favor of the BG guys so they can go home.

I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

You're correct. Even in the Starfox Parse he did not, once, admit to keeping up a full haste cycle. In fact, his function was, like as described previously (that Saevel stated at his first post, which clearly points out that you're not reading in full) that the position in conflict was the 'second support'. Assuming a 4 DD + BRD/COR + Healer, with the RDM/NIN taking the 6th slot.

Haste is covered by the healer, with the exception of the RDM/NIN who hastes himself. RDM/NIN's casting duties relies mostly on maintaining self buffs (Haste, Refresh, Utsusemi and Enspell.) And maintaining a constant Dia II/III on the party target. If the healer had no native refresh, RDM/NIN gave it to them. Also, cure assistance was given in times where needed. (Say the WHM was buffing someone and RDM had an opportunity to slip in a cure to save the WHM some time/mp/risk) As well as crowd control during times the puller (likely brd) had difficulty.

My primary investment in this situation was, at that time, to get a party function that allowed me and my fiancee at the time (WHM) an opportunity to merit together on our favorite jobs. This was the best format available, one that Starfox was putting to practice before I had conceptualized it.

Tear it apart however you wish, but do remember that bard+cor parties were not always available to everyone even at that time, and doing so would have kept our characters apart (As if the RDM+WHM stigma itself wasn't enough.).

Oh, to answer the obvious question: I was leveling BLU at the time ,but breaks got put onto that project due to many RL problems. (I'm only now beginning to work together a possible return to BLU, 3 years later and bereft the fiance no less.)

[Greatguardian]

I don't care what/why you did something in some 8-person party, or 7? I'm obviously not reading in full so please fill me in on how 4 DDs, a Brd, a Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm can fit in a party. Or just 4 DDs, a Brd or Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm works out. Is this an outside healer?

Regardless, I never claimed that someone supposedly did that. I'm saying exactly the opposite. If a RDM is going to be expected to perform support duties, there is no way in hell they will have time to DD worth a crap. And if they are not providing support/healing duties? Whose spot are they taking? A Bard's? A Corsair's? Or a DD's?

All 3 will contribute significantly more to a group than adding a RDMDD. I'm not really sure how people are rationalizing trading a second Bard for a RDM. It's "just" Minuets? Like RCB is "just" food, right? And Dia3 supposedly makes up for this? You're forgetting yet again that RDM isn't contributing Dia 3. It's contributing the difference in value between Dia 2 and Dia 3, because any WHM or BRD worth their salt is already hitting every mob with that enfeeble.

If you want to talk about throwing a lackluster job into a lackluster party and getting lackluster results, go ahead. It's apparently the goal to bring everything down to the level of the lowest common denominator because some people are completely incapable of knowing people with Bard or Corsair leveled. But that has no bearing on an environment where the party itself is not total crap.

[Bagel]

Ah blinded by love. I knew rational thought couldn't have led you to claim a rdm could hang with a melee dd.

[Doombringer]

if i may play devils advocate for a moment..

lets take a hypothetical party. DD/DD/DD/BRD/BRD/RDM. now you can say whatever you want about lolsecond brd or nub get a cor, but you all know this was a very common and acceptable setup.

now.. lets just say.. you drop the second brd for a meleeing rdm, and fill the old rdms slot with any deidcated healer. so you end up with something like this.

DD/DD/DD/BRD/meleeRDM/WHM

now.. how different are these parties really? the second has better healing and equivelant longevity (since either way the primary healer has 2x ballad and refresh on him)

so the big question is damage. obviously the difference between dia2 and dia3 is less good than the loss of minuet, and the rdm might be casting that ANYWAY.. but people seem to disregard that the rdm is doing at least SOME damage on his own. so it's not the rdm vs any DD. it's all of the dmg the rdm does vs the difference in dmg of the other 3 DD's with minuet vs without.

i don't think the sky would fall.... the only significant weak point i see here is, potentially, pulling.



just sayin'

[Greatguardian]

The group is losing a ton of overall damage by adding a Red Mage over a 2x Minuet Bard. The difference in healing is negligible since neither party is going to have deaths if they are even half good.

You're looking at adding in one Red Mage's damage (who is not getting attack buffs btw, Marches/Haste only) as opposed to adding 2x Minuets to 3 Heavy DDs.

Would the "sky fall"? Subjective. Is the exchange anywhere near equivalent? No, it really isn't. Think of it this way. What would have happened if a THF replaced that minuetBRD? Exactly. And Thf is a stronger DD than Rdm to boot.

That's not even getting into the business of Corsair, which was significantly better in that slot than both Bard and Red Mage combined. Corsair is a stronger DD than Red Mage, and can give a buff comparable to Minuet while also boosting EXP and giving the mage a second Refresh.