Hopefully constructive criticism regarding the current state of FFXIV

I'm making this forum for the devs and hopefully the health of FFXIV moving forward. I've taken my own opinions as well as opinions I've heard from the community to put this together.

1.) I personally enjoy the slightly more difficult dungeon content. The problem is I don't enjoy the dungeon format. After years of playing FFXIV the standard format of the dungeons have become bland, I unfortunately don't know how you could adjust the dungeons to make them more enjoyable. Maybe people could give more constructive feedback on this subject.

2.) The story can correlate with the enjoyment players have in post content. I think we can all agree the vast majority of the playerbase didn't enjoy dawntrails story. I'm not here to bash it, it's out it's done, there's no changing it. In the future it's extremely important that the story resonates with the playerbase.

3.) There are a lot of complaints about the lack of content, I somewhat agree, but I'll take a different approach to it. In endwalker we weren't given an expansion zone or relic grind and I believe that exasperated the issue. The expansion zone is releasing on par with previous expansions eureka was 4.25 and bosja was 5.35 but I believe in the future it needs to be released at launch to keep the casual playerbase happy.

4.) Job homogenation, the jobs of ffxiv feel very similar to each other, in some cases that's a good thing in other ways it's bad. It's good in terms of balance, lining up raid buffs, and playing efficiently, but it's bad because it makes jobs feel boring over time. My suggestion would be to take notes from WOW, I fully understand it's a nightmare to balance and the playerbase will attack you for balancing issues, but I believe it could be very healthy for the game as well as good for the immersion and role playing aspects of the game.

5 Party Finder, party finder is a great tool for end game content and I appreciate it, but it has it's own set of issues. I won't speak on the community based issues only things that could be improved on your end. I like running savage and ultimate content, but my home data center is primal, I can't efficiently run ultimate content on primal because there are not enough players running ultimates on primal, I have to travel to aether every time I want to get a party together in a decent amount of time. If you allowed region based cross data center play, I think that would solve many of the issues we're running into when it comes to getting parties put together. I don't know the impact it would have on roulettes though.

Lastly, I don't say these things because I want to tear the devs down. I say these things because I care about the health of this game and want to see it improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I unfortunately don't know how you could adjust the dungeons to make them more enjoyable.

---

By not adhering to the format of a fixed number of bosses and trash. They could incorporate mechanics such as:

• Hopping on a mount and chasing someone.
• Falling in the sky like in Byakko.
• Using the G-Warrior or Magitek Armor or similar ideas.
• Melee DPS pilots a mount the whole party is on (like the raft in Dawntrail's first dungeon), while the ranged jobs attack from a distance and the tank tries to defend them.
• The fight with cannons in Stone Vigil HM.
• A dungeon that works similar to how Steps of Faith used to.
• Much of a mess as it is, the tentacle fight in Hullbreaker Isle is different and you have 2 routes to pick.
• Having interrupts on random trash mobs (they did this well in Shadowbringers dungeons and hunts as well as criterion). You can still make some pulls easier by interrupting these right.

Quote:

---

we can all agree the vast majority of the playerbase didn't enjoy dawntrails story. I'm not here to bash it, it's out it's done, there's no changing it. In the future it's extremely important that the story resonates with the playerbase.

---

I think they get that by now, so it's not a particularly constructive statement.

Quote:

---

Job homogenation, the jobs of ffxiv feel very similar to each other

---

People have asked for homogenization and then complained when it's happened. Remember "DRK should have a heal"? Or "PLD should have a gap closer"? and so on. These changes were made as requested, and now it's "homogenization".

They are going to address it in 8.0 anyway. Whether it will be to people's wishes, I don't know, so I'm not saying people should get be all excited for it or something. But they will likely be finding an alternative to leveling beyond 100, which could include skill trees or a similar concept, which may allow for a better system - we'll see.

Quote:

---

I have to travel to aether every time I want to get a party together in a decent amount of time

---

They are aware of the issue but they said it would take time to implement (and it will because it's complicated on the backend) plus they would need to test it extensively.

Quote:

---

Lastly, I don't say these things because I want to tear the devs down. I say these things because I care about the health of this game

---

Thanks for saying it more politely than most other forums users.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I unfortunately don't know how you could adjust the dungeons to make them more enjoyable. Maybe people could give more constructive feedback on this subject.

---

Either make trash pulls interesting or remove them entirely. Dungeons are not enjoyable because there's a ton of nothing between bosses; XIV trash is a bunch of training dummies to AoE down that almost never do anything except auto attack. Origenics turtle is a great example of what NOT to do

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

As for dungeons, I think adding more interesting mechanics to trash mobs again would help a lot. The frustrating things is that we know that the devs can create interesting dungeons, they just stopped for some reason. Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) is a good example of dungeon design IMO. The trash mobs have abilities that can be interrupted. Some of the trash mobs have unique abilities, i.e. the ones that cast an AOE that turns everything hit by it into a korpokkur. Players should avoid this but dragging mobs into it means they'll be transformed and do very little damage to the tank. There are the mud covered mobs near the end that you can drag into the water to transform them into different monsters.

Undoing the job homogenisation would increase replay value by allowing us to experience content in a way that feels somewhat fresh by changing jobs, instead of just being a different flavour of 123. I think making tanking and healing more involved would also make playing different roles more varied.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

The frustrating things is that we know that the devs can create interesting dungeons, they just stopped for some reason.

---

They stopped because the community complained every time they were presented with a dungeon that slowed down their breakneck speedrun for even a second. So no more interesting side rooms or mobs with unique abilities because that makes roulettes take 0.00000001% longer. And that's just unacceptable.

It's why you see people bail when they get Aurum Vale or Pharos Sirius or the like in DF. I had a Stone Vigil Hard the other day where just one dps remained when I joined in progress as a healer.

Really a lesson in being careful what you ask for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I had a Stone Vigil Hard the other day where just one dps remained when I joined in progress as a healer.

---

I don't think I had a roulette of Stone Vigil Hard that didn't have at least one person bailing in a long time, people act like Cuca Fera is this incredibly insurmountable boss when it is really easy to handle if you are even trying to get the mechanics around it, and you can "cheese"(it feels wrong to call it cheese because it's still effort but it opens so much room for mistake on that fight it becomes difficult to wipe) it really easily by having the Healer run around instead of staying at a cannon, as you can heal the knights and let the fight last as long as you need it to, the last boss being a fully telegraphed avoidable boss that ignores enmity is also very unique, and I saw arguments start to break out in that dungeon because they thought the Tank was messing up all of sudden, which I have on occasion been able to defuse by explaining how the boss actually works.

It's a very unique dungeon with design that should be praised but even now I see people failing to handle it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Router

Either make trash pulls interesting or remove them entirely. Dungeons are not enjoyable because there's a ton of nothing between bosses; XIV trash is a bunch of training dummies to AoE down that almost never do anything except auto attack. Origenics turtle is a great example of what NOT to do

---

I am new back to FFxiv. I haven't even started the last expansion yet. I am looking back in the direction of FF because of the shabby practises Blizzard are adopting to push token sales. This aside...

The worst Dungeon Wow ever made was Trial of the Crusader in WOTLK. There was no trash. Bosses just appeared for you one by one. I knew of no one who liked it. Trash sets the tone for the dungeon. It reminds people of the mechanics as you approach the boss. Getting the amount of trash before the boss is the key, or at least make them interesting. Hunt mechanics are always a twist to make people feel good when they find a spy or such like (court of stars - wow). Giving players other than the tank a role to play is always a decent call imho. Make it a race or wipe scenario and that makes people feel good when they get it right. IE: the faster some one does a job the less hp the boss has, or he has lower output.

The problem with dungeons is that they all have to be doable in roulettes. There are so many of them and it needs to be such that if you’re a first timer, and you queue up in Duty Finder and get three people that haven’t done that dungeon in a year and who haven’t played their respective jobs in a month, then your run still needs to be perfectly smooth anyway or else people will complain and disband.

And if the devs don’t want people to disband during levelling roulette, this makes a problem where tank and healer can’t be hard to play when doing the trash pulls. Imagine how many parties would disband if both your tank and healer needed to be good at the game in order to complete a dungeon. The devs have chosen “smoothness” at the expense of making dungeons less interesting to players who are familiar enough with how to play the game.

I’d really like if they could at least have more like Vanguard, with aoes during the trash pulls and having bosses that are a little harder than usual dungeon bosses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I don't think I had a roulette of Stone Vigil Hard that didn't have at least one person bailing in a long time, people act like Cuca Fera is this incredibly insurmountable boss when it is really easy to handle if you are even trying to get the mechanics around it, and you can "cheese"(it feels wrong to call it cheese because it's still effort but it opens so much room for mistake on that fight it becomes difficult to wipe) it really easily by having the Healer run around instead of staying at a cannon, as you can heal the knights and let the fight last as long as you need it to, the last boss being a fully telegraphed avoidable boss that ignores enmity is also very unique, and I saw arguments start to break out in that dungeon because they thought the Tank was messing up all of sudden, which I have on occasion been able to defuse by explaining how the boss actually works.

It's a very unique dungeon with design that should be praised but even now I see people failing to handle it.

---

Don't even need to cheese it. Cuca Fera's an incredibly easy fight if everyone stays on the cannons, kills the adds that attack other cannons and the NPCs, and interrupts the roomwide while dropping dps on boss as necessary. But people drop like flies in Dzemael too because they don't want to stay in the purple and be safe. I enjoy getting these dungeons in roulettes, but unfortunately they're few and far between these days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They stopped because the community complained every time they were presented with a dungeon that slowed down their breakneck speedrun for even a second. So no more interesting side rooms or mobs with unique abilities because that makes roulettes take 0.00000001% longer. And that's just unacceptable.

It's why you see people bail when they get Aurum Vale or Pharos Sirius or the like in DF. I had a Stone Vigil Hard the other day where just one dps remained when I joined in progress as a healer.

Really a lesson in being careful what you ask for.

---

Tbf the dungeons you are describing are nowhere near a good dungeon design.. all those are just kinda bad because of the missing ability variety and randomness from mobs. Stone Vigil Hard, rarely anyone knows how to kill the second boss and more times than not in DF, people do not care to listen/read chat if you explain something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I'm making this forum for the devs and hopefully the health of FFXIV moving forward. I've taken my own opinions as well as opinions I've heard from the community to put this together.

---

1.) I think dawn trail achieved that. the leveling dungeons were slightly more difficult and interesting.

2.) Personally I didn't mind the story so much but def not the best that was told. For me at least it was better than ARR and that's already a win in my books.

3.) The pace of releasing content is a huge minus for me. Probably one reason why this slog exists it's due to the fact the FF14 team is really not all that big to begin with, however, they had 11 years to come up with a better engine so, it's a grave they dig themselves in. So, SE ultimately still gets brownie points from me.


4.) I personally don't mind the 2-minute burst window. I always thought combat was the weakest point of FF14, however, it makes sense if you tie it together with everything else in-game and the awful code behind it.

5) I would love data center-wide PF. I like that you can travel but it makes no sense not to have data center PF as well. Also, I think it would be cool to be able to travel to all data centers not just region-based. JP can stay in their bubble if they wish, but I would like to be able to travel freely between EU, NA and OCE.

I would add something to the list as this comes up very frequently

6) There is no reason why Island Sanctuary cannot have instance housing or why you are unable to build your own instance house there as well. You can put outdoor furnishing so, why not just make it properly? It's our retreat spot and would make sense to have a proper house as well.

7) revamping old systems. And here it can be from Glam to Grand companies to FC. The fact you cannot interact with your FC if you travel is just annoying, let alone not having access to retainers, buffs.. etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kohashi

4.) I personally don't mind the 2-minute burst window. I always thought combat was the weakest point of FF14, however, it makes sense if you tie it together with everything else in-game and the awful code behind it.

---

The combat and different UI elements honestly gave me the impression of an Arcade-like version of WoW. From the cast bar countdown, damage/heal bar indicators, timers on duties and field ops, to even when you have that blinking "INTERRUPTED!" UI. The combat itself is based off of Yoshida and his team playing WoW Cata and referencing off of that, yet given their own spin on it with combo followups. As expansion after expansion came into planning along with the subsequent trying to deal with button bloat, the tweaking and removing of abilities started into that descent of losing job identity; and adjusting things towards the 2 minute meta because of the players that asked for it proliferated that degrading of job identity. Does anyone remember before SHB when tanks used to have a DPS stance and a Tank stance?

So the question becomes should CS3 piss off the high end and other players that want that 2 minute meta or keep it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manamaru

The combat and different UI elements honestly gave me the impression of an Arcade-like version of WoW. From the cast bar countdown, damage/heal bar indicators, timers on duties and field ops, to even when you have that blinking "INTERRUPTED!" UI. The combat itself is based off of Yoshida and his team playing WoW Cata and referencing off of that, yet given their own spin on it with combo followups. As expansion after expansion came into planning along with the subsequent trying to deal with button bloat, the tweaking and removing of abilities started into that descent of losing job identity; and adjusting things towards the 2 minute meta because of the players that asked for it proliferated that degrading of job identity. Does anyone remember before SHB when tanks used to have a DPS stance and a Tank stance?

So the question becomes should CS3 piss off the high end and other players that want that 2 minute meta or keep it?

---

It's nothing new for games to copy from one another but it's also the main reason why I have played every single other MMO out there before FF14. I never like WoW combat style and also lowkey wished they didn't copy that system.

I mean for the most part looking at how fights evolved, dungeons, or high-end duty I would say bringing back tank stances is simply redundant at this point.

IMO to really make jobs truly unique they need to completely re-design fighting as a whole, including dungeons, raids, and whatnot. The likelihood for this to happen is very slim, let's be real now. They couldn't update old systems in 11 years and they just did a GFX upgrade after 10 years and you want a complete overhaul..heheh.

I mean..hope dies last no?
As long as they can give me skill expression, complexity, and rewarding, fun experience while executing combos, with none of the button bloat I am all for a completely new design. If they make this Combat Action while they are at it, all the better :p.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They stopped because the community complained every time they were presented with a dungeon that slowed down their breakneck speedrun for even a second. So no more interesting side rooms or mobs with unique abilities because that makes roulettes take 0.00000001% longer. And that's just unacceptable.

It's why you see people bail when they get Aurum Vale or Pharos Sirius or the like in DF. I had a Stone Vigil Hard the other day where just one dps remained when I joined in progress as a healer.

Really a lesson in being careful what you ask for.

---

This is true. I think the core issue is that a lot of players who don’t want to be in the content are forced to be there by the system (as in - they are there for the rewards of the rlt and not the process). I think it is a broken system really if it operates on having people hostage or punishing them to actually cooperate instead of people, at least majority actually enjoying the content first and foremost. Most players from what I observed don’t want to be synced down, they don’t want to sit through the same cutscenes or run 2-3 the same dungeons every day but they feel they have to. So the bar is lowering more and more to not aggravate them even further, which is not how you deal with the core problem at hand, in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

1.) I personally enjoy the slightly more difficult dungeon content. The problem is I don't enjoy the dungeon format. After years of playing FFXIV the standard format of the dungeons have become bland, I unfortunately don't know how you could adjust the dungeons to make them more enjoyable. Maybe people could give more constructive feedback on this subject.

---

The same way any decent tabletop GM can conceptualize and customize a dungeon's battle content really. Amount of bosses, enemies, swarms, environmental effects during a fight, adds to take care of, ranged adds that can only be taken down by ranged, enemy healers to primary... In fact the old guildhests had a lot of nifty ideas to play around.

Bosses are also the most boring part since they're just mini version of the same old DDR already found in trial and raid bosses with the same mechanics in the same circular rooms (or if they feel daring, a square, le gasp). Remember that raids actually used to have more than a boss before Stormblood? Or the variety found in Coils?

Trash mobs could take example on what I consider to be the most successful part of Criterions, which is... the trash! It doesn't have to be as challenging, although criterion trash is nowhere close to its boss difficulty, it's closer to the upper end of casual. It's very varied, no two packs look the same, there is environmental effects going on, and mechanics on how to handle them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

3.) There are a lot of complaints about the lack of content, I somewhat agree, but I'll take a different approach to it. In endwalker we weren't given an expansion zone or relic grind and I believe that exasperated the issue. The expansion zone is releasing on par with previous expansions eureka was 4.25 and bosja was 5.35 but I believe in the future it needs to be released at launch to keep the casual playerbase happy.

---

This is what has been done in ARR and HW.
- In ARR: the first stage of relics was part of the VANILLA content.
- In HW: the first stage of the relics was part of the 3.15 content, Diadem 1.0 also appeared in 3.1.

Why this has been pushed back again and again I do not know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

4.) Job homogenation, the jobs of ffxiv feel very similar to each other, in some cases that's a good thing in other ways it's bad. It's good in terms of balance, lining up raid buffs, and playing efficiently, but it's bad because it makes jobs feel boring over time. My suggestion would be to take notes from WOW, I fully understand it's a nightmare to balance and the playerbase will attack you for balancing issues, but I believe it could be very healthy for the game as well as good for the immersion and role playing aspects of the game.

---

I want to challenge the idea that it's either balance or variety (or a slider between both), at least a little. Adding more and more layers of complexity doesn't necessarily mean a balancing nightmare. It's definitely harder to conceptualize and make viable initially, but the more variables a system has, the less clear metas, or at least ultimately objective metas can emerge, and the more they'll actually evolve and change. The more variables, the more different options can also emerge within the meta itself. It's been notably proven within the RTS genre, as the more playable factions one adds, the less stale and static the meta turns, with less clear dominant choices, and a lot more counterplay.

Obviously in the realm of XIV, encounters have by definition little to no variables since they're fully scripted, which tends to act against it, but still for the aforementioned reasons, adding more variables within the jobs and the battle system itself can only be a positive in my opinion, because balance has always been a problem, whether it is today or before, so the game has actually gained nothing out of it over time, not even balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voryn

And if the devs don’t want people to disband during levelling roulette, this makes a problem where tank and healer can’t be hard to play when doing the trash pulls. Imagine how many parties would disband if both your tank and healer needed to be good at the game in order to complete a dungeon. The devs have chosen “smoothness” at the expense of making dungeons less interesting to players who are familiar enough with how to play the game.

---

That's what they want you to believe, in my opinion. I've played since HW and support jobs didn't use to be the brainless slop they are today, and people were doing fine. True, i've seen some parties with wipes a little more back then than today. That's part of the challenge, but instead they decided that the challenge should instead be at the individual level with DDR mechanics everywhere, a tank that cannot die even with 16 vuln stacks, and a healer playing cheerleader just in case one of those pesky DPS die (why is the trinity still a thing again at this point?).

This community and its dev have become incredibly whiny when it comes to dungeons. Dungeon takes one minute too much? Immediate salt, but only behind the veil because doing it in public could get them reported. A duty actually fails? It's the second coming of the apocalypse.

I'd even dare and say that the less we confront players with some responsibilities per role, the more clueless they'll be whenever one crops up right in front of them. Dzemael has never ever been a problem more than it is today before they reworked it. We actually had people being pulled into the abyss all the time and it was actually FUN. Fortunately they kept the ranged mobs and patrols, which has never been done again past vanilla ARR and it's a shame, because it also encourages skilled play without making the run impossible otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

That's what they want you to believe, in my opinion. I've played since HW and support jobs didn't use to be the brainless slop they are today, and people were doing fine.
…
I'd even dare and say that the less we confront players with some responsibilities per role, the more clueless they'll be whenever one crops up right in front of them.

---

HW was before my time (I started shortly before EW released) but I’m of a similar mindset that there’s a situation now that causes problems: players do not need to learn to play their role/job (or at least not past a very minimal degree for tanks and healers) to complete normal difficulty content. If someone isn’t interested in learning that much about how to play the game well, the game still appeals to them, but now normal difficulty content “needs” to be simple so they can do roulettes.

I personally would appreciate it if the game asked for more from the players when doing dungeons and other normal difficulty encounters, so it would be more fun for people like us who enjoy more challenge. But the game has two audiences, and to me it seems this is partially responsible for the criticism that there’s a lack of content. If someone likes easier games, what do they do now after the msq if there’s no new casual content yet? The recent patches haven’t given us many significant things to do other than FRU and Chaotic, which isn’t what they’re here for. The game has drawn in this audience but doesn’t meet their needs at the moment.

The reason for why people got through dungeons just fine before even though we could have some failures here and there was precisely because the system back then wasn't all about DDR binary mechanics, where you either fail a mechanic individually and die, or don't. If the mechanic is too punishing it becomes closer to savage and challenging optional content, and if it isn't, then it will probably not kill you anyway, and you end up with big snoozefest dungeons because nothing can truly happen to you, which removed all the friction and stress and people complained last expansion, especially when tank can't die anymore from being hit or standing bad stuff.

Now they decided to reintroduced stress in Yoshida's words, but of course by doubling down on their obsession with more DDR, faster paced mechanics that are overall more punishing to players again, the result being, you end up in dungeons like the Cenote where the healer or tank keep dying at every pushback because they're overwhelmed and you can't do jackshit about it. Tanks and healers can actually die from certain things now, because they added actual, instant kill mechanics if failed where even invincible jobs can fall. The devs have been literally playing with two ends of the same stick where one ends tries to prevent party wipes with the ShB/EW model by making tanks unkillable and healers irrelevant, and the other end with the DT model where some casual DDR mechanics will actually oneshot or twoshot you (even a tank) precisely to overcome that safety net they introduced before. It really feels like to me that they're doing some kind of arms race with themselves where safety becomes too predominant, instead of dialing it down, will instead buff lethality until it goes through again. This is also seen in higher end content by the way, with the uncontrolled spread of body checks everywhere after they removed most points of failure not attached to encounter mechanics (jobs, battle system, non DDR mechanics like in coils or HW), because those are the only remaining things that can still act as a true hurdle.

So we're back to square one with dungeons that can actually generate friction and failure (and player frustration) like Cenote with its end boss, but with a crappy lopsided system where tanks are invincible, healers useless, trash packs still asinine, and bosses more homogenized than ever. I don't think it's rocket science to see which model is superior, when in the past you could actually overcome the struggles of your party especially as a healer or tank (but even as a DPS by just nuking out of the threats faster), precisely because not everything was about binary DDR mechanics almost exclusively relying on individual execution. Tank wasn't positioning mobs properly in HW and was taking a crapton of crits from the back? Time for you as a healer to show your skills and keep them alive in spite of it. Tank kept losing aggro left and right? Healer could do something about it, DPS could also use their defensives to survive a little. Healer was out of mana because the DPS were taking ages to kill the mob packs (and probably running out of TP as well)? Time for you as a tank to play conservatively and show your skills in survival.

Good luck doing that when the tank keeps getting pushed off the platform those days. And those changes were supposed to alleviate tanxiety?

As for dungeon creativity, why can't we have epic and engaging story reversal and setbacks? You come across a bridge but it's lifted, NPCs keep fighting at the edge to keep it clear from a horde of pursuing enemies, while they yell at the party to climb up that tower and make a way through the enemies inside so the party can unlock the bridge mechanics at the top before moving on? They could do so many epic things like this... you know, it doesn't belong just in tabletop roleplaying games? Like, actual RPG video games do it very well too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

By not adhering to the format of a fixed number of bosses and trash. They could incorporate mechanics such as:

• Hopping on a mount and chasing someone.
• Falling in the sky like in Byakko.
• Using the G-Warrior or Magitek Armor or similar ideas.
• Melee DPS pilots a mount the whole party is on (like the raft in Dawntrail's first dungeon), while the ranged jobs attack from a distance and the tank tries to defend them.
• The fight with cannons in Stone Vigil HM.
• A dungeon that works similar to how Steps of Faith used to.
• Much of a mess as it is, the tentacle fight in Hullbreaker Isle is different and you have 2 routes to pick.
• Having interrupts on random trash mobs (they did this well in Shadowbringers dungeons and hunts as well as criterion). You can still make some pulls easier by interrupting these right.

---

I would like to add that these mechanics need to be mandatory. Not people cheesing and skipping or leaving it to the healer to clean up. You refuse to play the game as intended, you wipe.

I think the dungeon should have more to explore I hate and loved the thousand maws of toto-Rak because you could get lost yes it was annoying but it felt like a dungeon.

or make a multi path dungeon with harder trash mobs like legit if you could give them more power like a boss without being one would be nice clashing aoes or tiny mechanics could be interesting or a overworld interaction make us do something not just being a visual story or well stabbing thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

By not adhering to the format of a fixed number of bosses and trash. They could incorporate mechanics such as:
Hopping on a mount and chasing someone.
Falling in the sky like in Byakko.
Using the G-Warrior or Magitek Armor or similar ideas.
Melee DPS pilots a mount the whole party is on (like the raft in Dawntrail's first dungeon), while the ranged jobs attack from a distance and the tank tries to defend them.
The fight with cannons in Stone Vigil HM.
A dungeon that works similar to how Steps of Faith used to.
Much of a mess as it is, the tentacle fight in Hullbreaker Isle is different and you have 2 routes to pick.
Having interrupts on random trash mobs (they did this well in Shadowbringers dungeons and hunts as well as criterion). You can still make some pulls easier by interrupting these right.

---

This is just cringe,boring and disgusting gimmick fights that nobody wants as proven by people skipping dungeons like that in rolo.

It's not that hard to just make bosses and trash be more interesting alongside the combat not being a snoozefest instead of gimmicks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purrnauskis

This is just cringe,boring and disgusting gimmick fights that nobody wants as proven by people skipping dungeons like that in rolo.

It's not that hard to just make bosses and trash be more interesting alongside the combat not being a snoozefest instead of gimmicks.

---

Well, those ideas are at least better than the slop we are being served currently. Sure, there will always be people that CBA to do certain mechs, but we see what happens to the game when it is being designed in that way. And personally, I'd rather CS3 experiment more with gimmicks and try to keep the game fresh than serve us the same dungeon again and again.

And yes, I agree - its not hard to make interesting trash and boss fights. CS3 have literally shown that they can (Criterion), if they are allowed to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LilaIronman

Tbf the dungeons you are describing are nowhere near a good dungeon design.. all those are just kinda bad because of the missing ability variety and randomness from mobs. Stone Vigil Hard, rarely anyone knows how to kill the second boss and more times than not in DF, people do not care to listen/read chat if you explain something.

---

What is good dungeon design then? The ARR optional dungeons are chock full of unique mechanics like SV Hard. Mechanics that make you think outside the box. Isn't this the type of thing we want to see optional content that can branch out a bit from the normal MSQ experience?

What are you talking about? You can litterally put all the mechanics in a handful of boxes, nothing "out of the box" about it xD

Honestly, for the casual fanbase, I think we really need to see a return of optional dungeons--with an appropriate award that would appeal to those players as well, and the MSQ needs more solo duties. I'm redoing DT's MSQ on one of my RP alts now and man--no one mentions it but even at the very beginning with the storm on the ship, that would have been a fun duty in ye olde times.

Optional dungeons also lets people ramp up the difficulty a little more without having to worry about every faceroller getting stuck in the MSQ because they can't handle something other than the box standard two tickle damage mobs.

Also, screaming hot take: ability prune. Healers and tanks both badly need it. Healers need more of a swap, some DPS abilities, less redundant healing CDs (both to make core healer job mechanics actually mean something and not to overwhelm newbies) and tanks need like...way less mit. Maybe it's different for the 1% in Ultimates, but you can cheese so much as a tank it makes things borderline braindead for tanks AND healers. And simply upping the damage just makes it unpleasant in the other direction if your tank or healer isn't as familiar with their job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basteala

Honestly, for the casual fanbase, I think we really need to see a return of optional dungeons--with an appropriate award that would appeal to those players as well

---

But then if you think about it, we do get 3 optional dungeons: variant dungeons. The issue is hiding them away not even in a roulette and the NPC guide taking ages to appreciate the surroundings. And there are potential issues with how difficult they can make them when a DPS has to be able to tank them solo, although the last bosses were usually decently tough.

Quote:

---

the MSQ needs more solo duties.

---

One thing I've thought is that, maybe due to the technology and graphics update, they haven't needed solo duties as much. Now that we can see NPCs follow us and we can follow them in the open world, it means we no longer need solo duties to achieve that.

The main benefit of solo duties now is if we are entering a special area we normally can't, or if the NPCs will be helping us fight, or if the enemy will have dungeon-like mechanics. But these things do make it more interesting than open world mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

But then if you think about it, we do get 3 optional dungeons: variant dungeons. The issue is hiding them away not even in a roulette and the NPC guide taking ages to appreciate the surroundings. And there are potential issues with how difficult they can make them when a DPS has to be able to tank them solo, although the last bosses were usually decently tough.
One thing I've thought is that, maybe due to the technology and graphics update, they haven't needed solo duties as much. Now that we can see NPCs follow us and we can follow them in the open world, it means we no longer need solo duties to achieve that.

The main benefit of solo duties now is if we are entering a special area we normally can't, or if the NPCs will be helping us fight, or if the enemy will have dungeon-like mechanics. But these things do make it more interesting than open world mobs.

---

And I love variant dungeons, but accessibility is a thing, and as you said--they can't be readily accessed by roulette. And for tome grinding, they give out less, which people are going to care about as well.

Also where DT is concerned...where are they? I would be all over a variant dungeon if we had one by now.

The thing with Solo Duties for me is that it was a way to let players experience the story rather than have it all be passively observed through cutscenes. In a weird way, the over reliance on cutscenes to tell the story creates a "tell not show" dynamic with the stakes. "The storm was terrible, the battle against the Alexandrians in Tullyolall was a brutal one, take our word for it" kind of thing. It creates, I feel, a disconnect between the narrative and the player.

They could do that in the overworld with NPCs following us--that would be fine. But they need to....actually do that.

I think there was also the additional benefit in solo duties in having to do the content alone, and there's a sense of immersion from that. And--like you said--the enemies could have dungeon like mechanics. I think for me that's the key thing. The solo dungeons weren't *hard*, but they weren't absolutely braindead like overworld content is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basteala

The thing with Solo Duties for me is that it was a way to let players experience the story rather than have it all be passively observed through cutscenes. In a weird way, the over reliance on cutscenes to tell the story creates a "tell not show" dynamic with the stakes. "The storm was terrible, the battle against the Alexandrians in Tullyolall was a brutal one, take our word for it" kind of thing. It creates, I feel, a disconnect between the narrative and the player.

---

This was such an annoying thing in DT. The amount of times I was hyped up for a potential solo duty, only for it to be a cutscene. The absolute biggest offender is the attack on Tuliyollal. Going through the city to save citizens, just to be called to the palace to finish it up with a fight against Zoraal Ja. Up to this point, I don't think people of the New World really know how strong the Warrior of Light actually is, this would be a fight to show Zoraal Ja just how strong we really are.

So many moments ruined because we didn't participate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This was such an annoying thing in DT. The amount of times I was hyped up for a potential solo duty, only for it to be a cutscene. The absolute biggest offender is the attack on Tuliyollal. Going through the city to save citizens, just to be called to the palace to finish it up with a fight against Zoraal Ja. Up to this point, I don't think people of the New World really know how strong the Warrior of Light actually is, this would be a fight to show Zoraal Ja just how strong we really are.

So many moments ruined because we didn't participate.

---

Yeah. This is a thing I was thinking about with the PeluPelu quest when we're basically holding all the quest items when Wuk Lamat does all the work, but I really feel that--despite people's inability to voice it, it's not just that we're not the main character in DT--in EW Post we were arguably a supporting character too--but in DT it really feels like we're on hireling duty. NPC Duty.

The dungeon bosses are better than ever but the space between the bosses could definitely use some work. The "pull two packs, AOE, pull two more packs, AOE, boss" formula is beyond stale.

Dungeons bosses are better? What changed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SXTC

What are you talking about? You can litterally put all the mechanics in a handful of boxes, nothing "out of the box" about it xD

---

Where do you see the unique characteristics of these fights elsewhere in the game?

- the Cuca Fera fight in SV HM
- Diabolos in Lost City of Amdapor
- the purple crystals in Dzemael
- the Zu in Pharos Sirius
- Hullbreaker kraken boss
- Arioch in Lost City of Amdapor

Interestingly enough, those are some of the bosses i hate the most.
Not because they are hard, but because its annoying that they have completely different fight design than the other 95% of the game and you basicly have to flip a switch inside your head to think like ARR Square Enix and deal with its old shenanigans.

The way i see it is that its better to fix the outliers so that they are more aligned with the rest of the game, rather than starting implementing unintuitive gimmicks like those randomly in newer fights.

This is why i am advocating for a rework of Coils of Bahamut in particular and Crystal Tower for a long time, because they represent a fight design philosophy that does not exist anymore. It misrepresents what raiding actually look like for new players and regardless if they like it or dislike it, they are ultimately misled about what to expect later from the game.

I actually had a run of Pharos this week where fate decided to give me double DNC as DPS, and they managed were positioned just right to hit every egg in the room with double Standard Step, I never seen the Zu mother so pissed, and proceed to just nuke the party in a second, we got it the second time, but it was funny to watch shit hit the fan so spectacularly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

Interestingly enough, those are some of the bosses i hate the most.
Not because they are hard, but because its annoying that they have completely different fight design than the other 95% of the game and you basicly have to flip a switch inside your head to think like ARR Square Enix and deal with its old shenanigans.

The way i see it is that its better to fix the outliers so that they are more aligned with the rest of the game, rather than starting implementing unintuitive gimmicks like those randomly in newer fights.

This is why i am advocating for a rework of Coils of Bahamut in particular and Crystal Tower for a long time, because they represent a fight design philosophy that does not exist anymore. It misrepresents what raiding actually look like for new players and regardless if they like it or dislike it, they are ultimately misled about what to expect later from the game.

---

Sure, it's easier to fix the outliers and it might give new players a better idea of how the rest of the game is. But it doesn't fix the core issue, that the "modern" design is both incredibly stale and boring.
The fact that those are, in hindsight, considered outliers in the first place is exactly the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Where do you see the unique characteristics of these fights elsewhere in the game?

- the Cuca Fera fight in SV HM
- Diabolos in Lost City of Amdapor
- the purple crystals in Dzemael
- the Zu in Pharos Sirius
- Hullbreaker kraken boss
- Arioch in Lost City of Amdapor

---

You want to know a trend about all those fights?

They're all old. Like almost ten years old. Maybe fights had unique elements in the past but that is CERTAINLY not the case now.

I fear your evidence only strengthens the argument against the current state of FF14.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

Interestingly enough, those are some of the bosses i hate the most.
Not because they are hard, but because its annoying that they have completely different fight design than the other 95% of the game and you basicly have to flip a switch inside your head to think like ARR Square Enix and deal with its old shenanigans.

The way i see it is that its better to fix the outliers so that they are more aligned with the rest of the game, rather than starting implementing unintuitive gimmicks like those randomly in newer fights.

This is why i am advocating for a rework of Coils of Bahamut in particular and Crystal Tower for a long time, because they represent a fight design philosophy that does not exist anymore. It misrepresents what raiding actually look like for new players and regardless if they like it or dislike it, they are ultimately misled about what to expect later from the game.

---

Food for thought though: when those bosses were current content, they were not "outliers". They were the game, both possibly part of the enjoyment players had with this MMORPG and part of the reason they fell in love with the combat. These fun bits were slowly rationalized away in favor of a more "streamlined" experience, whether that is better or worse depends on the eye of the beholder. For me, the fights have become worse, but YMMV.

You say it misrepresents what the game is about, I say the new fights misrepresent what made the game exciting when it was new. Instead of completely moving away from these things, why not meet in the middle and have some of column a, some of column b?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Sure, it's easier to fix the outliers and it might give new players a better idea of how the rest of the game is. But it doesn't fix the core issue, that the "modern" design is both incredibly stale and boring.
The fact that those are, in hindsight, considered outliers in the first place is exactly the problem.

---

Just because something is unique in design, dosnt make it good.

I would easily bet a few hundred thousand gil that most of us at least at some point sighed very hard when we get some of these uniquely designed fights in our roulettes, like the gobwalker arena in alexander, or where you have to sniff the gas to turn into a gorilla in alexander again, or the crazy healer wedding dungeon with the boss where you have to let the 2nd boss kill the mobs with its targeted aoe, or yes the cannons in stone vigil.
These fights are not good, unique sure, but not in the slightest more enjoyable than any modern fight.

I would also like to see better designed fights, but old ARR dungeons hardly make a good arguement because they are just mostly a pain in the backside.
A multiple floor arena would be awesome tho, having to run up and down a level to avoid room wide attacks from the boss is so simple of a concept yet we do not have it at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

Interestingly enough, those are some of the bosses i hate the most.
Not because they are hard, but because its annoying that they have completely different fight design than the other 95% of the game and you basicly have to flip a switch inside your head to think like ARR Square Enix and deal with its old shenanigans.

The way i see it is that its better to fix the outliers so that they are more aligned with the rest of the game, rather than starting implementing unintuitive gimmicks like those randomly in newer fights.

This is why i am advocating for a rework of Coils of Bahamut in particular and Crystal Tower for a long time, because they represent a fight design philosophy that does not exist anymore. It misrepresents what raiding actually look like for new players and regardless if they like it or dislike it, they are ultimately misled about what to expect later from the game.

---

I would be so sad if they did. They already butchered most of the old bosses that got reworked to turn them into the same vapid pasta sauce... :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Where do you see the unique characteristics of these fights elsewhere in the game?

- the Cuca Fera fight in SV HM
- Diabolos in Lost City of Amdapor
- the purple crystals in Dzemael
- the Zu in Pharos Sirius
- Hullbreaker kraken boss
- Arioch in Lost City of Amdapor

---

There were a lot more than just those, even in HW actually. Mustard dragon in the Aery before the duty support rework comes to mind among others, very intricate mechanics actually, but it was made irrelevant by people just being able to bruteforce through them unfortunately.