T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

EDIT: Looked into this a bit more. Apparently ForbiddenWebsite has a weird glitch where, if two party members in a 4 man are the same Job (e.g. two BLMs) in a 3DPS party it will...randomly substitute one with a random Healer Job. If there's a rhyme or reason to it, I haven't see it. Regardless, the top compositions for speed runs do appear to be T/3D parties, with the traditional T/H/D/D party being approximately 13.5-22.5% slower, depending on dungeon. This doesn't change much since the deviation is relatively small (usually less than 2 minutes; for 5 Extreme runs in a week, this would save a total of around 10 minutes per week) and the speed running community for 4 mans is also very niche (meaning not a thing that the community as a whole cares about nor that the Devs balance around). Moreover, these are the top/best speed run results in the entire data set, not an average/what most players would experience attempting the same thing. But putting it here for the sake of completeness/awareness. Whether the difference is noticeable or worthwhile to you probably depends on what your reliable dungeon running group consists of and how much effort or coordination you do or don't wish to use. :ENDEDIT

.

While pre-made speed runs don't matter to the majority of the community and very likely don't matter to the Devs, the claim is often made that the Tank/3DPS party is outright superior for clearing 4 man content at the fastest rate. So, what do the numbers say?


Overall: (done by rating, not by time, though I think it's a proxy for time)

#1 is WAR/NIN/SAM/DNC - 710.74

#2 is WAR/SCH/BLM/SAM - 701.38 (a difference of -1.3169...% from #1, so less than 1.5% difference)


Dead Ends:

#1 is PLD/SCH/BRD/BLM - 10:48

#2 is PLD/SCH/BLM/DRG - 11:09

#3 is GNB/AST/NIN/BLM - 11:12

#4 is first no-healer party WAR/MCH/DRG/BLM - 11:27 (39 sec longer than #1)


Smiletown:

#1 is GNB/AST/NIN/BLM - 8:32

#2 is WAR/MCH/DRG/BLM - 9:22 (50 sec longer)


Stigma Dreamscape:

#1 is WAR/MCH/DRG/BLM - 9:07

#2 is WAR/WHM/NIN/BLM - 9:11 (4 sec slower)


Alzadaal's Legacy:

#1 is WAR/MNK/DRG/BLM - 9:13

#2 is GNB/AST/NIN/BLM - 9:17 (4 sec slower)


Fell Court of Troia:

#1 is GNB/AST/NIN/BLM - 9:30

#2 is WAR/WHM/NIN/BLM - 9:38

#3 is PLD/BLM/RPR/DNC - 10:57 (87 sec or 1 min 27 sec slower)


Lapis Manalis:

#1 is PLD/BLM/RPR/DNC - 10:55

#2 is WAR/WHM/NIN/BLM - 10:57 (3 sec slower)


In many cases, the standard party is the fastest clear of these 4 mans. In the cases it ISN'T, the Tank/3DPS clears are literally only a few seconds (3 or 4) faster.


This indicates that, in a coordinated party speedrunning content AND reporting on it (the forbidden website), there seems to be no real advantage to running T/3DPS over the standard T/H/D/D comp. And in several cases, the T/3D comp is actually slower. In one case by more than a minute.


Moreover, looking at Lapis Manalis specifically (since we can't "overgear" the content yet like we can the lower ones), the difference between the #1 and #50 party is 10:55 (655 sec) vs 12:01 (721 sec), a difference of 1 minute and 6 seconds. So we're not exactly talking massive differences here.


While it is absolutely true that a lot of the fast times ARE the T/3D comps, the fact remains that they are not the FASTEST in all cases, and where they are, are only so by a smidge. This means, when well played by a coordinated group, the time gap is relatively insignificant. And in some cases, the fastest clears ARE with the standard T/H/D/D, meaning for some dungeons, T/H/D/D is faster than T/3D.

You compare completely different group compositions and player's.
By pure number's a T/3D group will be better, as long the Tank is a WAR.
Because a WAR does not care about heals. He does WtW pulls ajd can keep himself and others alive without wasting GCDs for like clemency.

What are your groups made of anyway?
Is everyone with BiS gear and on their main role?

The few times I tanked for 3Dps where by far the fastest dungeon clears I ever had.
Because the DPS had BiS gear and knew how to play. They did not get hit by anything and survived.
While the random standard DF group always has at least one player who is not that good.
Healer's who want to GCD heal a WAR, DPS who get hit by stuff and needs to be healed and player who just don't know how to play their class.

I don't really remember that many people saying it's faster, but I do remember a lot of people saying it's pretty sad that it's possible in the first place

What you're looking is wrong data, while in the ranking they seem to have healers when you open the log of the run the roles change, a quick example:
https://i.gyazo.com/9f8daa7b2633f622...9c6807aac9.png
Remember the names and the run time, then we click, open the log and...
https://i.gyazo.com/812ad340e0a6ae7e...4c1d60a84f.png
War, Nin, blm blm no Sch in sight

Same happens in the rest for example the super fast smileton run:
https://i.gyazo.com/07b363d91478a861...731d8f4948.png
with an ast but...
https://i.gyazo.com/4d27a602c8ac9009...0af579cb6a.png
Ast evolves into Blm

and the same happens for the rest of the top 10 runs that show a healer, there are no top 10 runs with a healer in them

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've read the logs incorrectly sir. Granted the overall list is actually kind of confusing on this one so I do sympathise.

On the team speed rankings overview page that shows the list, for whatever reason the job icon shows that person's 'main' class. I'm not sure how it's decided, maybe by whatever's currently equipped on lodestone or the job that they have the most uploads on. Eitherway it's not actually the job they ran that dungeon on in that example.

However, If you click into the 10:48 run you'll immediately see that Pori was actually on War, the DPS were BLM BLM and Ninja, for the second run they switched out the NIN for DRG.

So for dead ends, the fastest 3 DPS is 10:48

The fastest run with a healer is 12:16

For Smiletown, the 8:32 run you've linked is actually BLM BLM NIN WAR again.

Add a healer and the fastest time is 10:02, another run with Si'lvinna in a group called ORCA Speedrun, so they clearly aren't hanging about.

For Dreamscape, it's 9:07 for 3 DPS vs 10:27 with a healer.

In Alzadaal's Legacy it's 9:13 vs 11:07 with heals.

In Troia it's 9:30 vs 11:37

And lastly, for Manalis it's 10:55 vs 12:26

For reference the easiest way I've found to get the fastest healer run is to select speed fast the sorting then select all healers from jobs. For whatever reason not all runs end up on the overall team speed rankings, no idea why but the times seem valid.

The takeaway is that depending on the dungeon, taking a healer costs you somewhere between a minute and a half to 2 minutes and that'll likely scale up relative to the overall dungeon time with less optimised play or jobs.

(Beaten to it! The healer vs 3 dps numbers are still useful though!)

https://i.ibb.co/ZTV1Nzn/What.png

I know the above is in jest but before anyone actually jumps on Rena over the mistake, remember that he has openly stated in the past that whilst he has some Savage experience, it's not a significant amount nor does it go back that far. Chances are he's not really used logs for much if any real in-depth analysis before. This is fine, but it does also demonstrate the lesson that it's always wise to dig deeper before drawing any conclusions from Logs.

Building theories purely at a surface level is wildly consistent and might as well be a coin toss as to if you're accurate or not.

TLDR: Delve deeper before you jump to a conclusion sirs++

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

it's pretty sad that it's possible in the first place

---

This is the reason why its a point of contention. I'm sorry, no trinity game (healer/tank/dps) should allow one of the trinity to be irrelevant, in this case healers, because the outgoing damage is that friggin low. Even if we discard W2W I'm pretty sure on my GNB I can solo an EW boss. In fact, I have! From above 50% hp.

That's not a sign of good skill expression. That's a sign the devs have made healing far too low for w/e reason they claim to be a good one.

So even if 3DPS runs were slower by some nominally small amount. I'd still say it just feels bad to play a job that's only included because the duty finder requires it for matched parties, and that people are all too happy to drop the moment a coded system isn't enforcing it.

I mean I’ve had the misfortune to carry out nigh solo runs of expert dungeons both this and last expansion - on some level I like that I’m able to but at the same time it doesn’t feel healthy for the game. In fairness I’ve also tanked as scholar, but I wasn’t exactly wall to walling there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrimGale

https://i.ibb.co/ZTV1Nzn/What.png

---

Saving this for future use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I know the above is in jest...

---

This, and a fair point. It's a weird glitch that I'm now wondering if it extends to other things, such as single Healer 8 mans. If it only activates with two of the same Job (there seem to be a lot of BLM/BLM cases) or what. And why it randomly selects from the Healer Jobs, so there doesn't actually seem to be any consistency to it that would expose it from a surface level.

Using Lapis Manalis, it seems the difference is between 10 and some change minutes vs just over 12, so around a 20% difference, give or take. This may be different in different dungeons, but the older ones can also be more outgeared, so using the most current one is probably best for the results (not to mention only the two most recent will turn up in Expert)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'd still say it just feels bad to play a job that's only included because the duty finder requires it for matched parties, and that people are all too happy to drop the moment a coded system isn't enforcing it.

---

I'm not sure the latter part is true. Healers are kind of like having an insurance policy, not everyone wants them, but a lot of people like having them around, even if they don't actually need them. Healers incur a slightly slower speed for considerable added security. Whether that's something desired is up to the individual. It's similar to the argument of people taking a BLM or a SMN in an 8 man group for their Caster slot. Sometimes a random bad luck will happen and both Healers go down. If the party has that SMN (or RDM), the might be doing a good enough run to still get the clear, but obviously they have to reset and start over if they have a BLM. It's kind of how much security you want.

I don't think it's accurate to say "people are all to happy to drop the moment" that they aren't forced to do it. The amount of people that make full T/3D premade runs is pretty small compared to the people that just que into DF or use a normal T/H/2D comp, even with their premades. I think it's fair to say that some people want to drop it when allowed, but I think it's easy to overestimate how many are actually doing so.

And as Fulminating says, I've also had to tank on a Healer before while picking up bodies - something I couldn't have done if on a general DPS Job.

This has happened to me time and time again: As soon as your tank knows what they are doing, you just don't exist. Heals? The tank can keep themself up while pulling w2w effortlessly. "Alright, good pull! Now I'm gonna use Sacred Soil so you do-oh, they have yet to even put a dent in your health bar...ah well, Energy Drain spam it is, then." At least it means when I play tank I actually know I'm the most important role in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

I don't think it's accurate to say "people are all to happy to drop the moment" that they aren't forced to do it. The amount of people that make full T/3D premade runs is pretty small compared to the people that just que into DF or use a normal T/H/2D comp, even with their premades. I think it's fair to say that some people want to drop it when allowed, but I think it's easy to overestimate how many are actually doing so.

---

I disagree with this. Part of why I stopped playing ESO was because you could do this. Yeah, DF forces you into playing the healer role like it does here, but you best believe if you could queue DF without the limitation of a healer, people would do so. Much like here, most dungeons players interact with don't need a healer. There's enough self healing in the game to not require it and much like DNC and RDM can here, a magica DPS can just slot a few healing spells either from their class or ones that aren't connected to the restoration staff line and be just fine. (you can also do it with tanks btw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

I disagree with this. Part of why I stopped playing ESO was because you could do this. Yeah, DF forces you into playing the healer role like it does here, but you best believe if you could queue DF without the limitation of a healer, people would do so. Much like here, most dungeons players interact with don't need a healer. There's enough self healing in the game to not require it and much like DNC and RDM can here, a magica DPS can just slot a few healing spells either from their class or ones that aren't connected to the restoration staff line and be just fine. (you can also do it with tanks btw)

---

Yeah, but what I mean is, I don't even think it's that. Most people aren't trying to hyperoptimize in this game. If someone's doing a daily Expert for 90 tomes, they don't care if it takes 15 mins or so. They aren't putting together a speed running group to cut off 3-5 minutes. Most people want the easiest path, and that's DF, not PF. The difference also isn't huge. The log speed runs are probably pretty coordinated parties, not the "average player" experience/output. Me personally, I don't feel comfortable Tanking without a Healer, and I think people VASTLY understate the damage Tanks take because the specific case of WAR and Bloodletting make it seem like it's universal, but even most of the speed runs (as someone else in here said) use a WAR for the Tank, meaning it's a much more isolated issue than it might otherwise appear.

But the point holds that people are probably overestimating how many people are actually doing this. Even when I have FC only runs of Experts, people always form a T/H/D/D party. No one's ever asked for a T/3D party in my FC. I'm sure it happens with people, but again, I think it's much less prevalent than people make it out to be. Which is true of MOST of the Healer-related topics in this game (e.g. 1 Healer Ultimates has a similar problem of people vastly overstating what is barely possible, and is only possible when RNG perfectly lines up, every player in the team makes no mistakes and are willing to dedicate hours to getting that perfect RNG, and where only one Healer Job seems able to even do it.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Yeah, but what I mean is, I don't even think it's that. Most people aren't trying to hyperoptimize in this game. If someone's doing a daily Expert for 90 tomes, they don't care if it takes 15 mins or so. They aren't putting together a speed running group to cut off 3-5 minutes. Most people want the easiest path, and that's DF, not PF. The difference also isn't huge. The log speed runs are probably pretty coordinated parties, not the "average player" experience/output. Me personally, I don't feel comfortable Tanking without a Healer, and I think people VASTLY understate the damage Tanks take because the specific case of WAR and Bloodletting make it seem like it's universal, but even most of the speed runs (as someone else in here said) use a WAR for the Tank, meaning it's a much more isolated issue than it might otherwise appear.

But the point holds that people are probably overestimating how many people are actually doing this. Even when I have FC only runs of Experts, people always form a T/H/D/D party. No one's ever asked for a T/3D party in my FC. I'm sure it happens with people, but again, I think it's much less prevalent than people make it out to be. Which is true of MOST of the Healer-related topics in this game (e.g. 1 Healer Ultimates has a similar problem of people vastly overstating what is barely possible, and is only possible when RNG perfectly lines up, every player in the team makes no mistakes and are willing to dedicate hours to getting that perfect RNG, and where only one Healer Job seems able to even do it.)

---

My problem is that it shouldn't be possible. And honestly the only reason why dungeons I think are an issue is because of W2W. Bosses in this game are 100% soloable by tanks with the healing they have and that's... dumb.

Savage and Ultimate are even more egregious. The hardest content in the game made for a group of 8 players, 2 tanks and 2 healers can be completed without 2 healers? Really. That's OK SE? That's the issue with 1T/3DPS. That its even possible to begin with. There should be healer mechanics, of that we all agree, and there are, but not enough to ACTUALLY need a healer.

Considering how easy it is to not need a healer in dungeons, it means that when you do roll into one, chances are you aren't going to need to heal much if at all. The few times in the last two expansions I could stomach dropping into roulette as a healer so I could get tomestone farming dailies over with, it was the case a good 9 times out of 10. You just spend the entire dungeon run pressing one button. Over and over again. Occasionally refreshing a DOT. Occasionally swapping the one button spam with the one AOE button spam. Not even really needing to oGCD heal. Just Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil. Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. God FF14 healers are the most horrifically designed classes I've ever seen in an MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

...

---

Honestly, I don't think this is inherently a problem. In some MMOs, you can forego a Tank if you have excellent CC or kiting skills. It being possible to do a causal 4 man dungeon without a Healer (again, you can also do them without Tanks or without DPS) isn't really a problem on its own. To do a T/3D run you have to have good DPSers or the Tank will run out of CDs (and contrary to popular belief, they do, in fact, take damage that can kill them), and you have to have a Tank that doesn't just blow the whole kitchen sink and then have no defensives to use after that 15 sec of near invulnerability.

Likewise, if a party with the perfect comp, doing mechanics flawlessly, with the perfect rotation, can do a single Healer run after hours of trying to get the right RNG while also maintaining perfect or near-perfect performances and only with a specific Healer Job and specific party composition that allows for this, I don't think that's an issue either. It's like saying people shouldn't be able to solo PotD.

T/3D isn't at all part of the problem. I also disagree that there isn't enough healing needed. I think the issue is more that too many non-Healer Jobs have lots of healing. I don't know who you guys run with, but in my DF Expert roulettes, I HAVE to heal the Tank and DPS party members. They die to raidwides from bosses in Manalis if they aren't tended to. I'm not sure what content you're running where people don't take damage and don't die if not healed.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

God FF14 healers are the most horrifically designed classes I've ever seen in an MMO.

---

That's not Healer design, though, that's encounter design......also Tank design, but that's still the same issue, just the other side of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, I don't think this is inherently a problem. In some MMOs, you can forego a Tank if you have excellent CC or kiting skills. It being possible to do a causal 4 man dungeon without a Healer (again, you can also do them without Tanks or without DPS) isn't really a problem on its own. To do a T/3D run you have to have good DPSers or the Tank will run out of CDs (and contrary to popular belief, they do, in fact, take damage that can kill them), and you have to have a Tank that doesn't just blow the whole kitchen sink and then have no defensives to use after that 15 sec of near invulnerability.

Likewise, if a party with the perfect comp, doing mechanics flawlessly, with the perfect rotation, can do a single Healer run after hours of trying to get the right RNG while also maintaining perfect or near-perfect performances and only with a specific Healer Job and specific party composition that allows for this, I don't think that's an issue either. It's like saying people shouldn't be able to solo PotD.

T/3D isn't at all part of the problem. I also disagree that there isn't enough healing needed. I think the issue is more that too many non-Healer Jobs have lots of healing. I don't know who you guys run with, but in my DF Expert roulettes, I HAVE to heal the Tank and DPS party members. They die to raidwides from bosses in Manalis if they aren't tended to. I'm not sure what content you're running where people don't take damage and don't die if not healed.

---

You could take all the self heals away and it wouldn't do much aside from make tanks upset.

Plenty of dungeons I've ran there has been an AOE that I don't need to heal because they don't even do half damage. By the time the next unavoidable damage occurs I can press a button, they're up to full and nothing has changed. Tanks are worse. Unless they stand in bad I only need to pop CI or Exal on a tank buster (some times not even that) and they're fine. The "worst" I ever have to do is pop a regen on them. Bosses are a joke to heal in this game.

W2Ws are the only interesting parts of a dungeon because I actually use my entire bloated kit. If dungeon bosses were more like that we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Same can be said in raids and trials. The last few have been interesting to heal, and more of what I'd like to see, but nothing to really be happy about. Its "more of that but better and for things other than raids and trials already".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm not sure the latter part is true. Healers are kind of like having an insurance policy, not everyone wants them, but a lot of people like having them around, even if they don't actually need them.

---

IMO you're actually rather incorrect on this one, but the reason why is a little complex.

Go back to early ARR when the go to method for tomes was grinding WP. My FC would run PLD/BLM/WHM/WHM teams as they were the fastest way to chew through the dungeon up until the trick of walling off trash with boss barriers was discovered. In various trials it was also common place to ignore the recommended comp and simply go with a single tank or healer as required.

For dungeons, this stopped being a regular thing outside of speed runs because frankly, there's very little reason to grind dungeons like that anymore. Have a look through recent uploads for a specific dungeon and you won't find people grinding them, you'll just see people doing their daily roulettes because that's all anyone really needs. It's not the safety blanket of having a healer along for the ride that keeps the average static member bringing their healer along, it's the bonus times from that roulette entry point.

It was the same thing with single healer savage and coil clears. Once my teams had Coil/Savage on farm is was pretty common for my co healer to switch to a DPS for the earlier floors to speed things up. Even in the dread Gordias, we had a raid where my co-healer couldn't make the start of raid, he didn't need the gear so we just started clearing without him. The logs site blocking non 2/2/4 comps from appearing on front page rankings stopped that trend dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

That's not Healer design, though, that's encounter design......also Tank design, but that's still the same issue, just the other side of it.

---

A Jet is a beautiful design for soaring through the sky.

Just need to trundle through town though? It's pretty damn terrible for that ;)

Healers as they are don't fit in the context of the game environment they run in for the most part and don't make sense until you hit Savage as a minimum. In that regard, they are badly designed and lacking.

*edit*

Perhaps a better analogy would be having a beautiful set of handcrafted steak knives but all you've got to eat is a pot noodle :D

I fully agree that it shouldn't be possible, let alone be more efficient.
Going "but it's not what MOST players do anyway... and you need hyperskilled uber players anyway" is just moving goalposts, handwaving and not even true.
The AST solo heal in DSR was a case of praying to rngesus and using a specific class but we're still talking about the hardest content in the game, current ultimate AND the more difficult one - that gets solo-healed shortly after release before even having true Ultimate BiS.

And I've solo healed a bunch of savages and ex trials without issues... in PF. Nope, no hyperoptimized uberskilled world first static. Just PF peeps. And I still didn't have to dip into GCD healing most of the time. I've also seen my fair share of solo heal runs when I was on dps, e5s was good for solo healing as it only required one person to switch position for CL and that's it. Especially the weapon trials frequently got solo healed on my DC same as Zodiark Ex. Hydaelyn not as much but I still saw it. And Light DC isn't known for being the uberskilled pro raider DC.
1T/3D dungeon runs were done with casuals from my FC; players that were somewhere in the green area with dps, often not even playing their main class. How is that "excellent skill"?

There is no "everyone has to play flawlessly, perfect comp necessary, play rotation perfectly at all times, be perfectly coordinated" to pull it off except for DSR solo heal.
It is possible in all types of content, including the most difficult content in the entire game that SHOULD be designed around 2/2/4 but is somehow possible with 2/1/5. And for anything below savage, many PF parties can pull it off.
FFlogs blocked solo heal runs from showing up in the ranking but if they reverted that change, I can guarantee you that more people would go for solo heal runs.
The third party site is partly responsible for keeping the "ditch healers" in check. A third party site.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Regardless, the top compositions for speed runs do appear to be T/3D parties, with the traditional T/H/D/D party being approximately 5-15% slower, depending on dungeon. This doesn't change everything since the deviation is relatively small (usually less than 2 minutes) and the speed running community for 4 mans is also very niche (meaning not a thing that the community as a whole cares about nor that the Devs balance around), but putting it here for the sake of completeness/awareness. Whether the difference is noticeable or worthwhile to you probably depends on what your reliable dungeon running group consists of and how much effort or coordination you do or don't wish to use. :ENDEDIT

---

Dead ends is 13.5% slower.
Smileton is 17.5% slower.
Dreamscape is 14.6% slower.
Alzadaal is 20.6% slower.
Troia is 22.2% slower.
Manalis is 13.89% slower.

Could you explain how you came to 5-15%? I defended you on the initial post likely being an honest mistake but this is blatant padding the numbers for damage limitation.

2 minutes is a big chunk of time when the entire dungeon is taking ~9 to 12 minutes to clear. And no, trying to hand wave that off by suggesting that the deviation is small is also pretty false.

The simple fact is that if you have a group that can play to a reasonable standard and the tank doesn't mind playing Warrior, you will beat the dungeon 13-22% faster, no ifs, no buts.

As I said before, the reason this isn't more common isn't because speed running isn't popular or whatever, it's roulette bonuses that stop it from being worth doing. Take them out of the picture and you have what happens when especially easy Extremes get released. Did you know that there are just shy of 11000 non standard comp entries listed for Innocence Extreme recorded in the weeks before Savage launched?

Be a little more honest, you're doing your credibility no favours here.

Can’t wait for SE to read this thread and conclude that all content should just become role agnostic like PvP or Deep Dungeon

Aren't we there already tbh? This game doesn't really make use of the trinity now until Extreme and even then that's a stretch at times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Aren't we there already tbh? This game doesn't really make use of the trinity now until Extreme and even then that's a stretch at times.

---

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

---

Don’t give them ideas >,>;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

---

SE already tried that once: the second boss of Bardam's Mettle (Lv.65 dungeon).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

You could take all the self heals away and it wouldn't do much aside from make tanks upset.

Plenty of dungeons I've ran there has been an AOE that I don't need to heal because they don't even do half damage. By the time the next unavoidable damage occurs I can press a button, they're up to full and nothing has changed. Tanks are worse. Unless they stand in bad I only need to pop CI or Exal on a tank buster (some times not even that) and they're fine. The "worst" I ever have to do is pop a regen on them. Bosses are a joke to heal in this game.

---

Again, this is so odd to me since I have to actively heal players in DF groups I run all the time, and people sometimes still die. I'm not sure what makes the difference, but a lot of raidwides knock off over half of DPS health values, and automatic healing isn't sufficient to restore them fully before additional attacks in some cases. Again, final boss of Lapis add phase has 3 individual players targeted, then a party stack, a second 3 individual target if the adds aren't dead yet, then the raidwide phase transition, then another stack on the other side of it.

I'm sure that can all be healed with oGCDs, but not healing any of it AT ALL? And the boss is untargetable during this phase, do Reprise/Addle/Feint are only effective on the stack post-transition.

This is also assuming no players are taking avoidable damage, and in most of my runs, at least one person gets clipped fairly frequently, and sometimes two (or all three). So maybe I just have bad DF luck, but I'm not at all sure that damage is so negligible you could actually just NOT heal at all and your party be fine...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

IMO you're actually rather incorrect on this one, but the reason why is a little complex.

---

I'm not quite sure how this actually changes what I said, though.

ARR was a crazy time (people would 3 Healer things like Titan Hard early on because "What Enrage?"). I don't claim to know the motivations of all players, but having a Healer along decreases risk. I'm not sure how well that can be argued against. If you have, say, a WAR/NIN/BLM/BLM party and someone DOES die (one of the deaths from the mono-role parties I did was our all Tank party doing the second boss. Someone got clipped by the X attack, which apparently applies Doom. No Esuna means KO. No Raise means stay KO.), you have no way to bring them back. On the off chance there is a cascade of deaths, this can lead to wipes. While wipes aren't exactly punishing, they do add to the dungeon complete time, and they are something that people like to avoid. Besides which, if a party already has a Tank, they don't need to bring a Healer for the DF time-to-enter bonus.

"Once my teams had Coil/savage on farm". That last word is pretty important there. Not to mention you're talking about statics, not average player runs of simple content for tomes.

.

I think my issue with the design thing is that it's yet another case of hyperbole.

Say you have a flawless Rolex, worth more than a lot of people's cars or bank accounts. Master craftsmanship, high quality materials. But you play to go deep water diving. The watch isn't useful to you THERE, but that doesn't mean the watch is BADLY DESIGNED. It just means the design is for something else.

My contention is that the Healers are not BADLY DESIGNED - they are designed fine - the problem is the encounter designs of the game have shifted over time to be (relatively) incompatible with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

the hardest content in the game, current ultimate AND the more difficult one

---

I'm kind of curious, can any Ultimtes be solo Tanked?

I've solo Healed Extremes without issue, but I've also solo Tanked extremes. And I think there was an all Tank run of something Savage (P1S?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

SE already tried that once: the second boss of Bardam's Mettle (Lv.65 dungeon).

---

I wouldn't say I mind fights like that every once in a while, but honestly, I don't think they're all that fun in most cases. That one was okay I suppose...but I wouldn't want to see a lot more of them. Though some bosses use things like that as mini-phases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Again, this is so odd to me since I have to actively heal players in DF groups I run all the time, and people sometimes still die. I'm not sure what makes the difference, but a lot of raidwides knock off over half of DPS health values, and automatic healing isn't sufficient to restore them fully before additional attacks in some cases. Again, final boss of Lapis add phase has 3 individual players targeted, then a party stack, a second 3 individual target if the adds aren't dead yet, then the raidwide phase transition, then another stack on the other side of it.

I'm sure that can all be healed with oGCDs, but not healing any of it AT ALL?

---

I didn't say not healing any of it at all. Its been a minute since I ran that fight but I don't heal every one of those. At most I heal two especially since 3 of my abilities work best if I wait. And again, that's only one part of the fight instead of the whole thing.

This is usually the set up for a boss Shb, EW doesn't matter

1. Starts with Raidwide/TB.

If Raidwide, another one isn't going to happen for ~60. Meaning even if I delay putting down ES I don't need to heal the damage and party passive regens enough til the next raidwide that if I want to I can ignore the damage altogether. If TB I don't need to do anything. While I do like the new mini-defensives that all tanks received in EW they've made TB trivial as a result. And even if the tank doesn't use them, a normal defensive cooldown means I don't need CI or Exalt at all. Tanks' 1-2-3 heals them, and so does passive regen.

2. Whatever the above didn't happen comes next so TB/Raidwide. We've already discussed how negligible TBs are in this game past SB. And what I do for a raidwide in 1 I do here.

After that depends on the boss. If there's a stack, that's when I'd heal if I didn't heal the previous raid wide. If there's puddles (ie, targeted drops that also do damage upon drop) I'll heal that and so on.

Have I gotten the occasional run where I've healed nothing at all? Yes. Because DPS don't stand in bad and my tanks know how to heal themselves. Is that rare? Yes. Does it mean I'm using all of my kit on CD? No.

tl;dr - how much I heal depends on how hard the AOEs hit for. If the first unavoidable one is pitiful I'll wait til the next one because there's no reason to heal it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

I didn't say not healing any of it at all.

---

Okay, I guess that's what I'm getting at. So long as we agree on that, I see no further issue.

One of my constant battles in here is hyperbole, so "no healing needed at all" is hyperbole and shouldn't be said. If we're in agreement SOME healing is needed but it's easy to address using very little of our kit (wall-to-walls aside; those actually can be somewhat more engaging), then I see nothing left to argue about there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Okay, I guess that's what I'm getting at. So long as we agree on that, I see no further issue.

One of my constant battles in here is hyperbole, so "no healing needed at all" is hyperbole and shouldn't be said. If we're in agreement SOME healing is needed but it's easy to address using very little of our kit (wall-to-walls aside; those actually can be somewhat more engaging), then I see nothing left to argue about there.

---

No one has ever said no healing at all, otherwise the hps needed would be 0, they mean no significant healing.

The average dungeon run (doing wall to wall) demands around 3k hps from the whole group, this is low enough that with a little of tank mit and party self sustain the healer can be left with half of that (down to near 0 if the tank is decent). When we have kits that can go over 20k without bis that is problematic because the game's not asking for even a 10-15% of all our healing capabilities and thus people say there is nothing to heal

(As a reference of how low 3k hps is, p1n a fight known to be extremely easy demands 6k from both healers)

Also I find weird that you're trying to be that precise about that but you still haven't answered Sebazy's questions

Where the 5-15% come from when the real percentages are 13-22%?
Why are you handwaving 2m as small when in the context of 10-12m runs 2m is huge difference?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

ARR was a crazy time (people would 3 Healer things like Titan Hard early on because "What Enrage?"). I don't claim to know the motivations of all players, but having a Healer along decreases risk. I'm not sure how well that can be argued against. If you have, say, a WAR/NIN/BLM/BLM party and someone DOES die (one of the deaths from the mono-role parties I did was our all Tank party doing the second boss. Someone got clipped by the X attack, which apparently applies Doom. No Esuna means KO. No Raise means stay KO.), you have no way to bring them back. On the off chance there is a cascade of deaths, this can lead to wipes.

---

Dead Ends is about the only dungeon I sympathise with deaths tbh, the bosses have a bunch of mechanics that will potentially one shot a non tank. The others are wildly non threatening to the point that the bosses are less dangerous than the trash. It takes eating multiple avoidable hits in succession to die in Experto these days even before you're in BiS gear.


While wipes aren't exactly punishing, they do add to the dungeon complete time, and they are something that people like to avoid. Besides which, if a party already has a Tank, they don't need to bring a Healer for the DF time-to-enter bonus.

Quote:

---

I think my issue with the design thing is that it's yet another case of hyperbole.

Say you have a flawless Rolex, worth more than a lot of people's cars or bank accounts. Master craftsmanship, high quality materials. But you play to go deep water diving. The watch isn't useful to you THERE, but that doesn't mean the watch is BADLY DESIGNED. It just means the design is for something else.

My contention is that the Healers are not BADLY DESIGNED - they are designed fine - the problem is the encounter designs of the game have shifted over time to be (relatively) incompatible with them.

---

Would you say that healers are well designed for solo content then?

This isn't a Rolex that isn't waterproof, this is a Rolex stops working in the evening. It looks beautiful but it's not always useful, it's missing a big part of it's functionality.

You can't say something is designed well without considering the context of what it was designed for. That's not hyperbole, that's a simple principle of good design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

One of my constant battles in here is hyperbole, so "no healing needed at all" is hyperbole and shouldn't be said.

---

You mean like trying to suggest that 13 to 22% is somehow 5 to 15%?

Surely if the Rolex being 'doesn't function underwater' is the issue (healers don't suit the combat design as it has evolved), surely the prevailing opinion that we should update healers is correct, not that we should update the design to suit healers? After all, if the healers were 'left behind as the content evolved', forcing the encounter design to change to match the healers is 'regression'. Also, what's easier, redesigning the Rolex to make it also be waterproof (without impacting it's functionality as a very nice looking watch), or redesigning how water works so that it doesn't damage stuff like clockwork? Or if we were saying 'don't use it in environment X as it's not designed for that', we're forced to use a healer in an EX roulette, which it seems 'not designed for' by the DF demanding at least one. If you don't have one, you don't get the daily bonus of tomes, and that means you'd have to do a whole extra run to make up the difference

And who's saying 'no healing needs to be done', it's 'no GCD healing needs to be done as everything is solved with OGCDs with some to spare, hence our healing kits are considered bloated', I already showed a pic of all the moves I didn't press once in an EX roulette back when Aldazaal was in the roulette and it worked out to be like 40% of my buttons that just never got touched. Not just Diag/Prog but 'oh I guess I don't need Pneuma or Zoe at all because the healing required is just that low'. This is why I think my Sage idea is good, optimal play even in EX roulette would force the player to make use of every tool they have, but a casual player can just Prognosis spam as much as they want because it's 0 MP cost, the only cost is 'its a GCD that could have been damage' which a casual player isn't thinking about

Feels like the goalposts are getting moved so much they're on wheels at this point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm kind of curious, can any Ultimtes be solo Tanked?

I've solo Healed Extremes without issue, but I've also solo Tanked extremes. And I think there was an all Tank run of something Savage (P1S?)

---

I hope this isn't you trying to steer this into a "all roles can be dropped" direction but yes, there is a 1/1/6 TEA clear. Solo tank AND solo heal.
Which, again, I don't think should be possible.

As for solo tank clears for endgame content, they are ironically the ones that are generally tied to more mindful and coordinated gameplay than solo healer clears (like the P1S solo tank clear having very specific requirements) while also being the ones with the most frequent guaranteed loss as opposed to rng loss at best like in TOP solo heal or simply no scripted loss, which is true for the majority of the fights.
Double tankbusters will often kill your top dps, there is no good rng to avoid it; you can sometimes avoid it by coordinated mitigation stacking and making sure the most tanky dps takes the hit but good luck trying that with busters like in e8s. So for many fights you would need to constantly sac your top dps in order to pull it off (almost all savage fights, Dia Ex, Barbie Ex etc) - the execution is inherently "not clean".

Another difference is how much of each role's toolkit is dedicated to which task.
DPS have almost all of their toolkit directly dedicated to dealing damage which, barring a few examples in Ultimates when you tempoarily need controlled dps, is always useful by increasing efficiency and lowering the risks by potentially skipping mechanics.
Bloodbath, Second Wind, Addle/ Feint, Samba etc which is is 5 buttons at most with most having 3.
Tanks have a more even split with about half the toolkit for mitigation and aggro and half for dps, give or take a few % depending on the class.
Now healers are the other extreme with everything BUT 4 to 6 buttons dedicated to dps and the rest to healing.

I'm mentioning this because healing is completely binary. Aggro is binary, mitigation has diminished usefulness. Dps is always useful.
So even when you are not strictly required on DPS because the content you are doing has no or a very lenient dps check, your entire toolkit is still designed for something that is always useful, that contributes to a faster kill or potentially skipping later and more dangerous mechanics. You are always a gain.
Once the binary healing requirement has been fulfilled however, a healer is a gimped dps. And if the binary healing requirement can be reliably fulfilled despite dropping one or even both healers then you really are just a hindrance because you're lowering the speed or the chance of skipping mechanics for no good reason. And if this is possible in endgame content, then we have a problem.

So being able to drop tanks is just as bad as being able to drop healers and being able to drop DPS and intentionally gimping the party isn't an argument that it's okay either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

Solo heal vs solo tank ultimates

---

Iirc the solo tank TEA clear was also after dungeon gear was released so the dps could, with heavy mitigation, barely survive some of the tankbusters and there are no recorded solo tank on top or dsr, meanwhile we have:
Dsr solo heal (within the same patch): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9r...l=SlienceRiver
Top solo heal (in patch): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B934...hannel=hakoott

As well as the usual, solo heal uwu, tea and ucob runs, as a matter of fact healers are the only role that has seen "solo" clears for every ultimate released

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

This is the reason why its a point of contention. I'm sorry, no trinity game (healer/tank/dps) should allow one of the trinity to be irrelevant, in this case healers, because the outgoing damage is that friggin low. Even if we discard W2W I'm pretty sure on my GNB I can solo an EW boss. In fact, I have! From above 50% hp.

That's not a sign of good skill expression. That's a sign the devs have made healing far too low for w/e reason they claim to be a good one.

---

It does seem like the lower dungeons, after the stat squish, were rebalanced to the mini ilvl instead of the max.

I got put into a Hero's Gauntlet as a Warrior where the group died at 50% and I proceeded to finish the dungeon, but there were multiple "oh sh!t" moments where I got REALLY low HP because the boss was hitting that hard (glad I keep potions on hand).

Meanwhile in EW, if in that same situation, I wouldn't even go below 50% hp.

I have run Vanaspati as a Scholar. I was told by the WAR as the dungeon loaded in "healer don't heal me".

I pressed zero heals during that run. GCD, oGCD, free, aetherflow, none of it. Zero. Every single Aetherflow stack was spent on Energy Drain. Every GCD was refreshing Biolysis, Art of Waring, or Broiling. Every. One.

This is not hyperbole. Stop dismissing healer complaints with "Hyperbole! Hyperbole!"

Would ONE GCD heal have made this hideous design acceptable? How about two? Mayhap three? What about two oGCDs thrown in there? Would that be indicative that there's no problem anymore? Is it useful to sit around and go "NUH UH, you cast TWO healing spells not ZERO, don't EXAGGERATE"? Because two practically rounds down to zero anyway. And we're sitting -at- zero.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I have run Vanaspati as a Scholar. I was told by the WAR as the dungeon loaded in "healer don't heal me".

I pressed zero heals during that run. GCD, oGCD, free, aetherflow, none of it. Zero. Every single Aetherflow stack was spent on Energy Drain. Every GCD was refreshing Biolysis, Art of Waring, or Broiling. Every. One.

This is not hyperbole. Stop dismissing healer complaints with "Hyperbole! Hyperbole!"

Would ONE GCD heal have made this hideous design acceptable? How about two? Mayhap three? What about two oGCDs thrown in there? Would that be indicative that there's no problem anymore? Is it useful to sit around and go "NUH UH, you cast TWO healing spells not ZERO, don't EXAGGERATE"? Because two practically rounds down to zero anyway. And we're sitting -at- zero.

---

Nuh uh doesn't count cos the fairy was casting embrace /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WaxSw

No one has ever said...

---

Sorry, but people either outright say or strongly imply that all the time. It's why I often mention that they still have to use oGCDs and why I've said before removing oGCDs would actually make them feel like they're healing more, since people tend not to think, when using oGCDs, "I'm healing".

As to her question - didn't see it. I was operating at the time on a difference of about a minute in a > 10 min run, which would be +/-10%.

I'm "handwaving" 2 minutes as small because 2 minutes is a very small unit of time compared to everything else I do. My Lopporit quests take longer than 2 minutes to complete. Capping out entirely due to perfect speed runs for 450 tomes per week means running 5 of them. 2 min x 5 runs = 10 mins. Meaning a difference of 2 minutes is saving you all of...10 minutes...a week. Which is a ridiculously small amount of time for most Humans, especially since you're only getting the bonus once per day. Conversely, you could run them all at once, in which case you'd get 90 for the first run and 40 for each other run, needing 10 total runs. In that case, you'd be saving 20 minutes...but you'd be adding a good deal of INefficiency by running them all at once since that would take 10 mins x 10 runs = 100 minutes (1 hour 40 mins) to accomplish. For context, a person running a typical DF 15 min run 5x a week would only take 75 minutes total, so doing this would be you actually wasting 25 minutes vs just doing a standard run each of 5 days in a week. So at that point, we aren't talking about time saved, we're talking about getting it all done at once. (10x 15 minute runs would be 150 minutes, or 2 and a half hours, for comparison)

In short, it's a decent amount in percentage terms, but is still a negligible amount of overall time saved. MOREOVER, there are caveats:

We're not talking an average team. Note that we're basing this "analysis" on THE FASTEST RUNS RECORDED. The average T/3D run is not 10 minutes or 8 minutes. Those are the fastest runs. Meaning the general speed run team - already more skilled than the average playerbase - is probably going to be taking longer. I'm not sure how to get the average of only non-healer comps, but the average mathematically MUST be slower than the top/best run, yes? One can argue this will apply to the standard composition run, and I would agree, but the gap may not be as pronounced, we'd have to look at said averages to know.

In any case, the overall point is, for the bulk of the playerbase, who doesn't want to deal with PF and doesn't have a pre-formed static, standard composition runs are going to be safer and - FOR THEIR PURPOSES - a negligible time difference of their weekly playtime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Dead Ends is about...

---

I dunno, people seem more than capable of dying or nearly dying in runs I'm in. Frequently.

By the quirks of the que, I was a RDM in Lapis last night. (I hit que as Healer and it was an odd 7 min wait, so just curious if DPS would be 10+, I tried as RDM and the que instantly popped. "Well, crap..." I thought as I hit accept - don't want to turn down a que due to the penalty and I hate when people do it when I que and it resets the party.) The Tank (a GNB) did not use a single mitigation ability until the last trash pull. The VERY last one, with the 2 Monks then the 3rd Monk and the little adds that spawn out of the air. I actually had to use Vercure a few times. The Healer, with a Savage 635 weapon and full 630 armor, kept saying "mit" in party. AFTER WE WIPED on the last trash pack, I did autotranslate (maybe the person doesn't speak/read English) of "Heart of Corundum", "Nebula", and the other DPS did "Rampart". So then the Tank enters combat again (I'm the only one already there because I Sprinted ahead, the other DPS and Healer aren't even there yet), and poops those CDs. All at once. The WHM Healer says "but not all at once". Anyway, we somehow survive this time, then move onto the final boss. I wasn't watching AS closely, but I don't think the Tank actually used a single mitigation. Oh, and did I mention the Tank started the instance without stance, almost getting everyone killed from the wildly rotating agro? Because that happened. :D

Yes, this does happen in real life.

I was honestly somewhat shocked (and felt for the exasperated Healer), as I'd never seen this before. I've seen Tanks not use Arm's Length or Reprise, and rarely the "I need to save them for emergencies" Tanks not use the BIG CDs...but I've never seen one not use ANY CDs before, and only use them (all at once) when prompted one time after we wiped on a given pull. It's like the Tank version of the Cure 1 Healer. I was honestly in equal parts sympathy for the Healer and equal part astonishment/awe at this unicorn I had discovered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Would you say that healers are well designed for solo content then?

---

Depends on the Healer. Doing solo PotD/HoH runs, I really enjoy SGE. It has the right amount going on to be interesting and I can actually make use of Toxicon. If Plegma's CD was a bit shorter, that might be a smidge more engaging, or if Addersting generated at the same rate as Addersgall, but that's really the only issue I have with it. And Kardia means healing is LARGELY automatic, which is kind of nice, using Karachole/Taurochole to reduce incoming damage as well, and Eukrasia Diagnosis to prep for big damage I can't avoid, Gloom floors, or untimely/unfortunate Vuln ups.

I like SCH, too, though part of it is that I like the IDEA of SCH. I like Eos traveling with me so it doesn't feel like I'm going through the dungeon alone, and she's pretty good about keeping my health in a good place. Ruin 2 is a good and fun tool for when I need to kite, Expedient is great, and I like using Eos' oGCD abilities (Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, and even Aetherpact), and if I don't need Sacred Soil (or even if I do use it on CD), I have an extra Aetherflow or two to throw in as an Energy Drain. Adlo also makes great shielding for big hits, and SCH has a good overall mitigation toolkit that I'm actively using.

WHM is great. It's simple, direct, and Misery is just fun to hit. It also has a neat tool in Holy, which can be used strategically as an interrupt to block casts, including Mimic Infatuation (well, at least on lower floors), which no other Healer has. Regen is also nice, though if it was oGCD or a Lily spender/Blood Lily generator, that'd be a lot nicer. It's one reason that I'm consistently in favor of having a Regen Lily spender/making Regen consume a Lily and generate a Blood Lily 1/3rd when used. I think WHM would be amazing in that kind of content if all GCD heals generated 1/3rd Blood Lily since I could cast Regen and Medica 2 and be almost to a Misery right there. More Misery = more fun, and breaking up Glare a bit with GCD heals would be my ideal solution.

AST I don't play except once in a blue moon when I want to try it in a 4 man (amusingly, I almost always parse blue on it even though I never play it, though that may speak more to the average player's dearth of skill rather than my own), so couldn't tell you on that one. But I don't like AST's aesthetic or playstyle (all the oGCD weaving), so that's the reason.

But of the three Healers I do play in solo content, WHM is fine (though could be better with the GCD heals generating Blood Lily change) and SCH and SGE are both pretty enjoyable to me.

That's my honest opinion to answer your question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

Double tankbusters will often kill your top dps, there is no good rng to avoid it; you can sometimes avoid it by coordinated mitigation stacking and making sure the most tanky dps takes the hit but good luck trying that with busters like in e8s.

---

I kinda wonder if this is worse or better, though. For the solo Ultimates, they have to run the content for literally hours of wipes until RNG works their way. In the case of guaranteed one DPS dying, that's predictable. Meaning once you have the fight down and have your solution to how to deal with that (Raise and heal then go back to it or mass mitigate the person), then you can execute it the first time and every time.

I guess my point here is more perspective than anything. While not identical - and let's go with your take that it's the worse/more messy outcome (though I'd feel 49 wipes on the way to the 50th time RNG working out is more messy...) - it does seem to show there's a general breakdown with encounter design and the trinity AS A WHOLE.

That said, it would be interesting if we actually had off-tank capability by DPSers for limited times like, say, WoW. FFXIV even DID have this back when Titan-Egi could legitimately tank some fights. The only DPS Job that seems somewhat able too do it (for limited times) would be, what, SAM with Third Eye? (Granted, SAM will often be lead DPS, so...that part checks out.) MNK with Riddle of Earth could have before RoE was changed... Monks as short duration off-tanks actually does have some support in Final Fantasy history since it's often a Job that has low defense but high HP allowing it to "meatshield/sponge" damage for very short periods of time.

But, again, that points to a problem of encounter design. And yet another point into "FFXIV's combat system/roles are too rigid".

Oh, but one other minor counter-point - there are periods in high end content where you DON'T want to push phases and so hold damage, are there not? So "more DPS" is not always useful. (Though that's typically just for specific phases of fights, but it's still important to keep in mind.) Even as far back as ARR and Ifrit Extreme nails, though this more became a problem once people significantly overgeared/unsynced it in later expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

...

This is not hyperbole. Stop dismissing healer complaints with "Hyperbole! Hyperbole!"

...

---

Roe's sarcasm aside (Embrace was healing if Eos was out), it would be interesting to see if this works with all the Tanks or only WAR. Pretty much everyone has pointed out WAR is too powerful in AOE/4 man content, but people also tend to say 4 man content doesn't matter.

That said, it's like the Cure 1 spammer or the no mitigation Tank - they happen, but are still rare. What makes it hyperbole is when you act like every run is that when they are not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Surely if the Rolex being 'doesn't function underwater' is the issue (healers don't suit the combat design as it has evolved), surely the prevailing opinion that we should update healers is correct, not that we should update the design to suit healers?

---

No.

That would be true if the encounter design WAS GOOD. If the encounter design was good, then it would make sense to change things to fit that, if that's what the Devs want their game to be like. The problem is, the encounter design is bad. Pretty much everyone acknowledges 5-10 seconds of activity followed by 1 minute without is bad design. Ex5's boss stopping EVEN AUTO ATTACKS during the maze game segments we all agree is probably bad encounter design, yes? The 2 min meta is also having trouble working into the boss mechanic design, and the body checks are often things that players don't like either.

Fitting Jobs that are designed well IN VACUUM into an encounter design that everyone agrees has major issues and needs to be changed doesn't make sense. If the encounter design is bad, then the encounter design needs to be changed. If it's changed into something the Healers/Tanks/DPS still don't fit into, but the encounter design is widely lauded as fantastic, THEN it would make sense to change the Jobs.

Changing the Jobs to fit bad encounter design doesn't fix problems, it would only cement bad encounter design for all of the foreseeable future, which is the last thing we want.

For example, all of you DO believe an Ultimate that can be solo-healed is bad, right?

So changing Healers to fit this design means that the next Ultimate CAN STILL BE SOLO HEALED, which you all THINK IS BAD, right? Why would you want to cement a design in place that you think is bad? I'm not understanding the logic there. I get you want to be LESS BORED, but that wouldn't change the fact you could still solo heal 8 mans and 0 heal 4 mans, which you all believe is bad. It seems that what you don't like is the encounter design, but your proposed solution is to keep the encounter design - which you agree with me is bad.

Healers having more DPS buttons wouldn't change T/3D runs of 4 mans being faster. It wouldn't change Ultimates being solo-healed. So how is that a true "solution" when it, at best, only masks the problem, and at worst, doesn't even mask the problem? If you aren't being taken to 4 mans with the DPS buttons you have now, why WOULD you be taken with more DPS buttons? If you're being benched to solo heal 8 mans now, why would having more DPS buttons fix that? You'd still be doing less DPS than a DPS Job, meaning people would still be benching you/going in 4 man premades without you, yes?

Just based on what I understand of your (collective) arguments, that seems to be doing the OPPOSITE of you want and not fixing the problem.

If the problems are that people can 0/solo heal content across the board, and that this is WRONG and the game SHOULD NOT ALLOW 0/solo Healer to be viable how does Healers having more DPS buttons change that?

It seems like it's a band-aid that isn't fixing the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Depends on the Healer. Doing solo PotD/HoH runs

---

Ok cool, that's one specific niche bit of side content. Now what about actual solo content. You know, MSQ, solo duties, solo fate farming?

Quote:

---

Healers having more DPS buttons wouldn't change T/3D runs of 4 mans being faster. It wouldn't change Ultimates being solo-healed. So how is that a true "solution" when it, at best, only masks the problem, and at worst, doesn't even mask the problem? If you aren't being taken to 4 mans with the DPS buttons you have now, why WOULD you be taken with more DPS buttons? If you're being benched to solo heal 8 mans now, why would having more DPS buttons fix that? You'd still be doing less DPS than a DPS Job, meaning people would still be benching you/going in 4 man premades without you, yes?

---

Because at least I won't be so bored stiff doing casual content on my healer. I honestly don't care if non standard comps are viable, I don't care if they are better, I personally don't even really care people can do Extremes without any healers at all. By all rights I'm part of the problem as I was all for this kind of wild experimental stuff in previous MMOs and I've been all for it here too - Case in point : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5TDzbqfEAo from over 9 years ago.

Where the problem starts for me is when I'm clamouring to get off the healer not because I want to experiment or because it might be 20% faster for some dungeon. But rather because the role I've enjoyed playing for over 20 years has been reduced to this level of monotony.

Pps you're still sidestepping how you got to 5-15%.