Auto-crit buffs have pushed melee too far ahead of Casters (and MCH)

Quick rundown of which melees got buffed:

Samurai (Midaare + Ogi) biggest winner
Monk (Bootshine) second biggest winner
Dragoon (Litany + Lifesurge)
Reaper (Got potency buffs to ensure parity with auto-crit melee)

Of the physical ranged, it's ironically not Machinist who benefited the most from the auto-crit changes, but Dancer who, on top of being able to partner the highest selfish DPS class in the game at 100% efficacy again, also has an auto-crit during their burst.

All of these changes have ended up widening the gulf between melee and casters to an unacceptable degree. Black mage, Summoner, Red Mage and Machinist all need the same parity buffs that Reaper got, Bard to a lesser degree since it benefits more than Dancer in team compositions where damage is more evenly distributed.

Ideally this would be the last set of powercreep buffs in this expansion since the auto-crit changes are a one time occurrence. The only other general system changes would be changing merging Skillspeed and Spellspeed and giving them the auto-crit treatment (buffs the damage of everything they don't affect in some way) but even then this would be nowhere near on the level of the auto-crit changes which are built into job kits vs an alternative method of gearing to crit stacking.

That is something some people WHO DON'T play a Caster or a Ranged dps completely overlook. Because they don't care, it's not their class...

I agree with you on the part where some ranged should have a buff to compensate the tweak, like MCH, or for class that don't have auto-crit, like BLM for exemple.

That being said, adjusting the potency for MCH and/or Caster won't be an easy task. Dancer may buff other class than one who auto-crit and that "Damage boost" is lost (For exemple with a Reaper, we have no auto-crit. Of course DNC will try other class before RPR...) so the rDPS gain may have some serious variation there. I wonder how much a crit/DH buff actually does in term of rDPS for auto-crit class like SAM against non auto-crit class like RPR ?

Auto-crit is a flawed system that never really works, has no significant impact on performance (hitting 3 times 5 is the same as hitting one 10 a 2 and a 3) and doesn't even feel rewarding to play.

Then again, it's not like the forums have been on fire, complaining about that exact problem.

Stop. Trying. To. Make. It. Work.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ecause-of-this

Devs do not care, they are super lazy people who milk ff14 as a cash cow. Intern saw sam dps variance because of crit and thought lets kill sam and remove kaiten (not using button is damage variance) and put auto crit.

The problem is not auto crit. The problem is that 19 classes have like 5 devs working on them and they have zero clue how to balance classes besides putting 10k+ potencies on 2 minute cooldowns. Auto crit is a band aid on band aid on self inflicted wound.

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Originally Posted by Thursdays

Auto-crit is a flawed system that never really works, has no significant impact on performance (hitting 3 times 5 is the same as hitting one 10 a 2 and a 3) and doesn't even feel rewarding to play.

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That line of reasoning is fine if everything is equal, but not everything is. Taking Samurai before 6.1, if you kept critting on your Midares, it will spike up your damage, to show how extreme it can potentially be, take old Midare, which, IIRC, was 1200 potency after Kaiten take a crit multiplier of 1.5 and it is suddenly 1800 potency. Compare that to SAM's weakest GCD, Hakaze, which is 200 potency, or 300 after a crit. That is 6 times the potency just because your got lucky. Even if you take an average of SAM's 8 GCDs to get to a Midare, you are looking at an average of 416.25 potency compared to 1800, add Midare into that equation and it brings the average of those 9 GCDs up to 570, that is ~37% increase, and that has assumed everything has crit, If you only make Midare crit and none of the others, you have the 8 GCDs at 277.5 potency per GCD, increasing to ~446.67 potency per GCD, an increase of ~61%.

The actual average will, of course, be somewhere in the middle, however, should your damage have a variance of around 20% just because of crit luck? That is a huge difference that is put of the player's control and is purely a consequence of frequent high damage hits. As it currently stands, the average GCD over the 9 is 353.3 and that is unchanging (still taking 1.5 crit multiplier, no idea how the recent changes would affect this, but it will be higher), what crits will do though, is bring the rest of the GCDs closer, which means, rather than spiking your damage, you keep it more consistent.

And just to curb something just because I mentioned Kaiten. Kaiten has nothing to do with this at all. You can keep Kaiten and adjust the Iaijutsu potencies to accommodate and it will be functionally the same.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

That line of reasoning is fine if everything is equal, but not everything is. Taking Samurai before 6.1, if you kept critting on your Midares, it will spike up your damage, to show how extreme it can potentially be, take old Midare, which, IIRC, was 1200 potency after Kaiten take a crit multiplier of 1.5 and it is suddenly 1800 potency. Compare that to SAM's weakest GCD, Hakaze, which is 200 potency, or 300 after a crit. That is 6 times the potency just because your got lucky. Even if you take an average of SAM's 8 GCDs to get to a Midare, you are looking at an average of 416.25 potency compared to 1800, add Midare into that equation and it brings the average of those 9 GCDs up to 570, that is ~37% increase, and that has assumed everything has crit, If you only make Midare crit and none of the others, you have the 8 GCDs at 277.5 potency per GCD, increasing to ~446.67 potency per GCD, an increase of ~61%.

The actual average will, of course, be somewhere in the middle, however, should your damage have a variance of around 20% just because of crit luck? That is a huge difference that is put of the player's control and is purely a consequence of frequent high damage hits. As it currently stands, the average GCD over the 9 is 353.3 and that is unchanging (still taking 1.5 crit multiplier, no idea how the recent changes would affect this, but it will be higher), what crits will do though, is bring the rest of the GCDs closer, which means, rather than spiking your damage, you keep it more consistent.

And just to curb something just because I mentioned Kaiten. Kaiten has nothing to do with this at all. You can keep Kaiten and adjust the Iaijutsu potencies to accommodate and it will be functionally the same.

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That is some serious math out there mister ! Really cool to read !


Just to return to the subject, it's not the Auto-crit flawed system that is discussed here, but more the fact that classes (Especially ranged) didn't get any balance after the change on Auto-crits.

It is rewarding to use your Auto-crits inside a Crit buff to get more damage (Taking into account that every person in the team line up the buff perfectly) but does it actually balance everything ? Spoiler : No.

The fact that Samourai was not a good choice at 6.1 for Dancer because of the Auto-crits is now reversed. It is the perfect choice for them, along with MNK and DRG.

It may affect the overall dps given by DNC and BRD if the group possess multiple Auto-crit Classes, because that would basically work like a regular damage buff on those attacks (But really stronger).

Which lead me to the question : Do you think that MCH is actually a viable class in the current iteration ?

In my opinion, MCH need more fire power. He's supposed to be the "SAM" of the Ranged class.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Just to return to the subject, it's not the Auto-crit flawed system that is discussed here, but more the fact that classes (Especially ranged) didn't get any balance after the change on Auto-crits.

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It was mainly as a response to what I quoted, which essentially reads as, it doesn't matter what crits, it evens out eventually, which is fundamentally false.

As for the rest of the topic, I do agree. I personally haven't seen how the numbers affect the damage (as I have alluded to) however, if jobs haven't been balanced around the new stat changes, there is going to be potential problems.

Here are some value I got by doing some test with the dancer crit/dh buff (20%) and the bard (20% DH) and the SCH 10% crit :

SAM (Only tested with Midare Setsugekka) : Around 19k Crit without external buff

Sam with only the Crit/DH Buff from DNC : Around 22k

So this is roughly a +15% Damage only on crit

WAR without buff (Only Fell Cleave + that Berserk boy): around 15k Crit + DH

War with buff (same as above) : 17k5 (Which is a little higher, 16-17% of damage up)

War with BRD buff : 16k (around 5-6%)

War with Scholar Crit debuff (10%) : 16k2 (around 8%)

More test are required, but we kinda roughly estimate that :

10% crit will buff damage around 8%

20% DH will be around 5-6%

But 20% Crit and DH gives around 16-17% ?

That actually make no sense because if we calculate correctly, straight forward, we should have more than 20% Damage buff. I even checked twice, the damage done with my war, and I am absolutely certain of those value.

We can then suppose that the "damage buff" given by those ability must have some sort of diminishing return.

I think more test must be done before stating on this tho...

Tell me you haven't actually looked at the numbers without telling me you haven't actually looked at the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

*snip*

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Here's my hot-take. Everyone should get the Auto-Crit treatment, or No one does.

Either/or. There are players who like non-fluctuating performances for less DPS variance, or how I like to call it " Boring/Bland/Stale " numbers cause that's what Auto-Crit did. Supposedly to address parsers that make up a literal 1% of the player-base since it relogs loggin on a 3rd party website. My job, Samurai, performs and I am not happy with it due to how it was implemented by removing Kaiten. For me this fixed nothing we still have DPS variance, just a tiny bit less. Even if it was reducing it more? it's still less flare and fun playing the job. The excitement of a big hit is gone at the cost of a very beloved Skill to not improve gameplay in my opinion.

So I don't like Auto-Crit's, but hey! if players truly desire to have them? then have every Job have equal amounts of Auto-Crit performances, or none. Not selectively one over the other. Fair is Fair.

Reaper needs more buffs ty. Also no I do not want auto crit on communio. It's cool getting the fat crit/dh and going ooooeh :o

The caster and ranged need some shuffling too. Poor mch and rdm.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

That line of reasoning is fine if everything is equal, but not everything is. Taking Samurai before 6.1, if you kept critting on your Midares, it will spike up your damage, to show how extreme it can potentially be, take old Midare, which, IIRC, was 1200 potency after Kaiten take a crit multiplier of 1.5 and it is suddenly 1800 potency. Compare that to SAM's weakest GCD, Hakaze, which is 200 potency, or 300 after a crit. That is 6 times the potency just because your got lucky. Even if you take an average of SAM's 8 GCDs to get to a Midare, you are looking at an average of 416.25 potency compared to 1800, add Midare into that equation and it brings the average of those 9 GCDs up to 570, that is ~37% increase, and that has assumed everything has crit, If you only make Midare crit and none of the others, you have the 8 GCDs at 277.5 potency per GCD, increasing to ~446.67 potency per GCD, an increase of ~61%.

The actual average will, of course, be somewhere in the middle, however, should your damage have a variance of around 20% just because of crit luck? That is a huge difference that is put of the player's control and is purely a consequence of frequent high damage hits. As it currently stands, the average GCD over the 9 is 353.3 and that is unchanging (still taking 1.5 crit multiplier, no idea how the recent changes would affect this, but it will be higher), what crits will do though, is bring the rest of the GCDs closer, which means, rather than spiking your damage, you keep it more consistent.

And just to curb something just because I mentioned Kaiten. Kaiten has nothing to do with this at all. You can keep Kaiten and adjust the Iaijutsu potencies to accommodate and it will be functionally the same.

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The point was that crit variance evens out over most fights (at least before the 2 minute burst bullshit that seems vewwy hawd to bawance for the devewopers), which you mansplained with many additional words.

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Originally Posted by Thursdays

The point was that crit variance evens out over most fights (at least before the 2 minute burst bullshit that seems vewwy hawd to bawance for the devewopers), which you mansplained with many additional words.

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No, the point was high potency attacks that are used frequently have a much higher impact on your damage and therefore, if you happen to get lucky, your damage can be much higher than predicted, or lower if your luck was bad. This is why high potency attacks that are used less often don't impact your DPS as much. In theory, Ogi Namikiri would have been fine to be kept as a high potency attack due to it not being used often, however, I suspect it was given an auto crit so that it could reliably out damage midare.

This isn't even SE just doing it out of nowhere, people were noticing SAM parses were fluctuating wildly, more than what was expected, and the cause was the high variation in crit luck on Midare. Reduce the variation in damage from midare, make the DPS more consistent and therefore easier to balance.

something something we never thought that would be too op something something we gonna fix it on 7.0 something something.

Honestly the fact that they didn’t realise how much this would benefit DNC based on the fact that the crit buff changes are a bigger potency buff then every potency buff MCH has gotten in EW it shows they just react on the fly to jobs they may or may not actually understand based on who is screaming the loudest (except healers, the devs line to healer mains is perma muted)

SCH didn’t need a buff, all phys ranged needed a buff but this buffed the two that needed it less and didn’t buff the one that needed it, this buffed melee that didn’t need it, this was a self inflicted problem because crit variance wasn’t a bad thing and why did we get this upon a savage launch patch, weren’t jobs like PLD WHM and SMN on 6.0 launch left in the dust and WHM especially all the way to 6.1 because they didn’t want to change jobs during a savage tier

Seriously this melee favouritism is getting really old, the jobs have never been in a worse state

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly the fact that they didn’t realise how much this would benefit DNC based on the fact that the crit buff changes are a bigger potency buff then every potency buff MCH has gotten in EW it shows they just react on the fly to jobs they may or may not actually understand based on who is screaming the loudest (except healers, the devs line to healer mains is perma muted)

SCH didn’t need a buff, all phys ranged needed a buff but this buffed the two that needed it less and didn’t buff the one that needed it, this buffed melee that didn’t need it, this was a self inflicted problem because crit variance wasn’t a bad thing and why did we get this upon a savage launch patch, weren’t jobs like PLD WHM and SMN on 6.0 launch left in the dust and WHM especially all the way to 6.1 because they didn’t want to change jobs during a savage tier

Seriously this melee favouritism is getting really old, the jobs have never been in a worse state

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How dare you to log your fights and prove them wrong. Yeah, they always favored Melee DPS. They made Ultimate 2 on P8S unhittable at one point because that'd favor ranged phys and casters and they don't want to punish Melee DPS. I just hate how they balance the game. How about buffing ranged phys and caster DPS to about the same DPs than melee with maybe 2%~3% difference >_> I'd feel less useless.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Yeah, they always favored Melee DPS.

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It's so weird too since YoshiP plays a caster. You would think they would pay more attention to caster balance.

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

It's so weird too since YoshiP plays a caster. You would think they would pay more attention to caster balance.

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The problem is that they dont playtest raids, if they actually did and died to enrage in p8s many times with stuff like war/pld/mch/rdm they would have saw themself that there is a problem in balance. But yoship can say that they do and just people who spent many years participating in world first race play worse than some random intern they took to test mechanics of fights with godmode on.

Rdm is useless, if you play smn and can learn blm you play blm because you dont even need extra raise.

yeah however, auto crits on samurai have also costed the classes identity as being the heavy hitter

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

It's so weird too since YoshiP plays a caster. You would think they would pay more attention to caster balance.

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Blkack Mage is also 500 DPS ahead of his casters counterpart RDM/SMN. So don't hold on saying there isn't favoritism~ People call it the res tax and quite frankly, res was pretty good on door boss in p8s but pretty unusable most the time in p8s second boss.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Blkack Mage is also 500 DPS ahead of his casters counterpart RDM/SMN. So don't hold on saying there isn't favoritism~ People call it the res tax and quite frankly, res was pretty good on door boss in p8s but pretty unusable most the time in p8s second boss.

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Ah yes, we had our caster who wanted to swap to RDM for fast res when we were on P8S Doorboss enrage and we just told them that one K.O. debuff would be enough to screw the DPS check.
"Res tax" except you pay a tax for a worthless tool when you actually need the DPS.

If progging, what stops the healer from keeping their swiftcast for res?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Ah yes, we had our caster who wanted to swap to RDM for fast res when we were on P8S Doorboss enrage and we just told them that one K.O. debuff would be enough to screw the DPS check.
"Res tax" except you pay a tax for a worthless tool when you actually need the DPS.

If progging, what stops the healer from keeping their swiftcast for res?

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Pretty much. The one good thing about red mage is the ability of triple res and still keep going and see further mechanics. Outside of that, it won't save a DPS check. Week 2 both healers died near the end and believe it or not, RDM res actually saved the clear. But again, DPS check is none existent on p7s for my group :<

The auto crit DH buff really wrecked the balance of this game. Reaction over abad design on Samurai. Our dear Samurais are becoming Ronins at this rate.

Why can’t people just be happy. Jobs aren’t that unbalanced. The variances are what make them unique. Great! Melee dps got some boost. Now ranged wants it too? Sweet let’s also give ranged positionals. And every put second wind on a 5 second cool down so we don’t need healers. I like to think SE pays more attention than people think. Usually things are pretty balanced. As a tank PLD and WAR complain they don’t have the raid damage DRK and GNB do and it’s unfair. To me that’s like the pure healer and shield healer. PLD and WAR have loads of self sustain. DRK and GNB don’t. So may drop some tank dps but gain some healer dps when they don’t have to babysit as much. A lot of the time people complain and they just don’t understand it. Dark mind … oh it’s magic mitigation only so stupid… but it’s 20%… every 60seconds… and most raid wides are well. Magic. So yea… tldr. It’s fine.

Oh except MCH… not the BLM of physical ranged for sure.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

The auto crit DH buff really wrecked the balance of this game. Reaction over abad design on Samurai. Our dear Samurais are becoming Ronins at this rate.

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Honestly I'm grateful for it. I love my SAM, but hopping over to BLM has given me the most joy out of savage raiding in a long time. BLM is insanely rewarding and made me realize how simplistic the melee have become over the years. Granted I'm sure BLM has seen QoL stuff over the years as well to ease certain things, but my last foray into BLM was back in ARR where infinity flare was a thing xD. That said, I do kinda wish BLM pumped out just a bit more DPS given how much harder they have to work compared to SAM/MNK, but aside from that I'm super happy I jumped over to BLM.

That aside, ya the physical ranged could use a buff, especially MCH being the "selfish" dps now. Theoretically they have 100% uptime so I get why they get that ranged tax dps, but its a bit too severe on MCH right now. I can't really comment on SMN, but RDM I feel like shouldn't have too high of a DPS given their other utilities to the party.

Their is actually a more problematic thing than "Balance of classes".

I've seen this many time on Social Media, sometimes even on Youtube, but P8S P1 make Ink flow a lot and this is due to bad balance of job too.

The actual "Balance" of the jobs aren't good. First of all, the DPS Check for P8S is incredibly tight, even forcing some Week 1 player to switch classes in order to reach the DPS Check.

And this is the actual problem :

No player, either Hard-core, Mid-core, Casual etc etc.... Should change classes in order to meet some requirements. This is not normal.

Let's take an exemple :

A composition with DRK/GNB can pass P8S

A composition With WAR/PLD/MCH can't pass P8S not matter how hard they try

Those two things are considered Week 1 clear. One composition can do it, while the other is trying the impossible.

Job balance must be done in accordance with the Raid Tier, and vice-versa. It's not normal to have some job being completely unable to Week 1 while other can.

Every job will suffer from a "Tax" it can be anything : Mobility, Defensive Utility, Offensive Utility, etc etc... and this goes on.

Therefore, a Job like MCH with great Mobility, will hit less than a BLM who is literraly a standing turret. This is logical.

A job that don't give anything to the team shouldn't be less effective than the other.

Actually MCH give 500 DPS less to the team than a BRD and 700 Less than a DNC. Yes DNC is ahead of Bard.

This is not logical. Or at least, not by such a margin.

500 DPS less over a 10 minute fight is worth 300k Damage (Which is somewhere between 12.000 to 14.000 Potency without any critical damage and must be considered following stuff. I calculated this using a 615 weapon on RPR with an Ilvl of 617. That's why the gap I told is that wide, it's an approximation). If I reverse the Math here. The MCH will need a buff of 55 Potency per 2.5 gcd in order to catch up. Globaly this mean that an upgrade of 60 Potency per combo attack for the machinist will barely make him able to catch up to a BRD.

The more the DPS widen between class, the worst it will go. I'm afraid that if nothing is done for 6.4, the mch will be behind by 800-1k DPS, and that will be critical.

Here's some approximativ number (Don't take it too seriously !) that some classe need to be able to do something on this raid tier.

Tanks :

WAR/PLD : Need around 27 Potency more per 2.5 Sec in order to be completely equal to the GNB. I think a boost of 20 Potency per 2.5 sec should be enough to catch up. (Around 650 Potency per minute)

Melee :

RPR against Samourai (who is the second least good DPS according to certain site in average) : Need around 19.5 Potency per 2.5 sec to be able to catch up to the samourai AT LEAST (Around 470 Potency per minute) . If compared with the monk, the value increase to 62 Potency per 2.5 sec ! (around 1500 Potency per minute, so... It's basically one Communio Crit/DH more per minute in order to catch up to the monk)


Caster :

The balance on those one is the least shocking to me, because BLM is in the spot he should be, compared to the other caster. So I won't say anything on those

Ranged :

As above, MCH will need at least 55 Potency per 2.5 sec in order to be effective in a raid group (Those 55 will make it equal to a bard rDPS ACTUALLY ! But he will certainly need a more consistent buff due to the fact that stuff will upgrade in the near future and the rDPS Gap will widen because of that.). Again, we are somewhere around 1320 Potency per minute for the MCH. It's insane !


Therefore, I'm not surprised that a composition with MCH/PLD/WAR can't do P8S when the group lack more than 2600 Potency per minute (Which is incredibly high) due to bad balancing.

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Originally Posted by Deole

Why can’t people just be happy.

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People aren't happy because the Crit/DH change favored a few jobs. Jobs that were already top. Monk and Samurai? Seriously? Other jobs were not compensate so when you're melee DPS that was about 8% ahead of SMN/RDM is now about 10% and I didn't get a buff on my SMN/RDM; yeah, I think it is a legitimate reason to be upset because they didn't think this through.

Regarding PLD/WAR and I'm really sorry to put it this way but their utility isn't needed. What's needed is DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

That aside, ya the physical ranged could use a buff, especially MCH being the "selfish" dps now. Theoretically they have 100% uptime so I get why they get that ranged tax dps, but its a bit too severe on MCH right now. I can't really comment on SMN, but RDM I feel like shouldn't have too high of a DPS given their other utilities to the party.

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Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Their is actually a more problematic thing than "Balance of classes".
Melee :

RPR against Samourai (who is the second least good DPS according to certain site in average) : Need around 19.5 Potency per 2.5 sec to be able to catch up to the samourai AT LEAST (Around 470 Potency per minute) . If compared with the monk, the value increase to 62 Potency per 2.5 sec ! (around 1500 Potency per minute, so... It's basically one Communio Crit/DH more per minute in order to catch up to the monk)


Caster :

The balance on those one is the least shocking to me, because BLM is in the spot he should be, compared to the other caster. So I won't say anything on those

Ranged :

As above, MCH will need at least 55 Potency per 2.5 sec in order to be effective in a raid group (Those 55 will make it equal to a bard rDPS ACTUALLY ! But he will certainly need a more consistent buff due to the fact that stuff will upgrade in the near future and the rDPS Gap will widen because of that.). Again, we are somewhere around 1320 Potency per minute for the MCH. It's insane !


Therefore, I'm not surprised that a composition with MCH/PLD/WAR can't do P8S when the group lack more than 2600 Potency per minute (Which is incredibly high) due to bad balancing.

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Here's the issue. It always should be melee, ranged, caster and flex. Melee DPS are so strong right now that it'S just 2 melees, caster and ranged. they dropped a 5th melee when caster and ranged dont have a 4th job in their category. They keep buffing melees because the 5th melee does bad damage, they don't adjust SMN/RDM and ranged.

The issue is the outdated mentality that melee needs about 10% extra damage because of melee downtime when they are making fights with no melee downtime.

Utility doesn't exist independently of dps requirements. Right now, if you think of utility as the ability to make up for mistakes and still clear content, then the best utility right now is to bring BLM over another caster and let your healers res because the dps difference is so wide and the dps check so tight on P8S that only the dps gain from BLM over another caster can make up for a death, essentially making the utility gain from SMN or RDM useless from a clearing perspective.

There's also the fact that bosses can die before they use all of their mechanics, so even in the most lenient dps check scenarios, you also have to take into account "being able to make up for a mistake" vs "making a mechanic disappear so mistakes aren't even possible to make." The dps gulf is getting wide enough that this can feasibly happen.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

People aren't happy because the Crit/DH change favored a few jobs. Jobs that were already top. Monk and Samurai? Seriously? Other jobs were not compensate so when you're melee DPS that was about 8% ahead of SMN/RDM is now about 10% and I didn't get a buff on my SMN/RDM; yeah, I think it is a legitimate reason to be upset because they didn't think this through.

Regarding PLD/WAR and I'm really sorry to put it this way but their utility isn't needed. What's needed is DPS.



Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.






Here's the issue. It always should be melee, ranged, caster and flex. Melee DPS are so strong right now that it'S just 2 melees, caster and ranged. they dropped a 5th melee when caster and ranged dont have a 4th job in their category. They keep buffing melees because the 5th melee does bad damage, they don't adjust SMN/RDM and ranged.

The issue is the outdated mentality that melee needs about 10% extra damage because of melee downtime when they are making fights with no melee downtime.

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This was also the case on the first Eden tier, the melee had 10% more damage, and the summoner-red mage was at the same level as the bard, or even below.
only the blm was relatively strong in ''Eden's gate''.

After they made too big buffs on the casters ''they had destroyed the game balance'',
I think the difference should not exceed 4-6% under melee DPS,and the summoner and red mage should never be under the bard or dancer
RDPS included.

Machinist should also be max 4-6% below Melee DPS.

8-10% more DPS on Melee DPS is definitely way too much.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Melee DPS get 100% uptime so that's really not a good argument to use to justify the DPS gap. Mechanics are designed for Melees to never lose GCD and when they'd lose GCDs; boss goes invuln. RDM actually has an harder time than Melees to keep 100% uptime.

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There's mechanics in every fight last tier that could push melee out of range, but yes its not as severe as it used to be when the boss hitboxes were smaller and more mechanics pushed melee out more frequently. Either way, I agree that atm the disparity between ranged and melee is too wide.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There's mechanics in every fight last tier that could push melee out of range, but yes its not as severe as it used to be when the boss hitboxes were smaller and more mechanics pushed melee out more frequently. Either way, I agree that atm the disparity between ranged and melee is too wide.

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I'm gonna be real honest with you. If there's a mechanic that make a melee DPS lose 1 or 2 GCD. That's an L but nothing compared to have 8% to 10% DPS lead. Also, this tier. That situation doesn't exist. They have 0 downtime period.

Also, goal isn't to put everyone at melee DPS but definitely a 3% difference only would be much better. 8% to 10% is too much and selfish caster + ranged aka BLM and MCH need to be on par with Samurais.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Here's my hot-take. Everyone should get the Auto-Crit treatment, or No one does.

Either/or. There are players who like non-fluctuating performances for less DPS variance, or how I like to call it " Boring/Bland/Stale " numbers cause that's what Auto-Crit did. Supposedly to address parsers that make up a literal 1% of the player-base since it relogs loggin on a 3rd party website.

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Sorry, but if you don't use a parser, you don't even realize if you're making a critical hit or not (except when you put the giga shield at the whole party). So call it "boring", but you don't even realize its been removed because you are too busy doing your rotation and doing the mechanics, in my opinion it is senseless. And even more so if they remove the randomly fluctuation decided by a server that does not consider the player's skill, so it's not even rewarding, I don't see anything wrong with it. Then clearly if you take away my experience in the gameplay by simplifying it, it is another matter (and here we return to kaiten mess), but in itself removing bad randomness is only good.
And I'll tell you more, the critical hit in my opinion should be predictable, based on the actions the player takes to be truly rewarding, perhaps adding depth to the gameplay and putting combos between the skills of all the players forcing the player to think about the entire party and not only to himself to have the maximum performance.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I'm gonna be real honest with you. If there's a mechanic that make a melee DPS lose 1 or 2 GCD. That's an L but nothing compared to have 8% to 10% DPS lead. Also, this tier. That situation doesn't exist. They have 0 downtime period.

Also, goal isn't to put everyone at melee DPS but definitely a 3% difference only would be much better. 8% to 10% is too much and selfish caster + ranged aka BLM and MCH need to be on par with Samurais.

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Hold up, you raise an interesting point.
What's the purpose of range tax if Melee plays like ranged?

It's been something normal since years now that melees should have more damage because ranged can have full uptime.
The debate before was that since melee are depending on uptime strats, they should always have a fair bonus to not fall behind.

But in this tier and DSR, there's no such thing as melee uptime strats.
Melee uptime strats are naturally used due to the boss hitbox size.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Hold up, you raise an interesting point.
What's the purpose of range tax if Melee plays like ranged?

It's been something normal since years now that melees should have more damage because ranged can have full uptime.
The debate before was that since melee are depending on uptime strats, they should always have a fair bonus to not fall behind.

But in this tier and DSR, there's no such thing as melee uptime strats.
Melee uptime strats are naturally used due to the boss hitbox size.

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Not only do they do more damage, but they also get better survivability tools (bloodbath for example), not to mention some of them have a better defense stat through their gear to compensate the "risk" they take by going into close combat.

It doesn't make sense anymore given the direction the game is heading with those giant hitboxes.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

snip[/B]

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My point was to take every role into their own categorie.

What I did for my "calculation" was to compare what is comparable. You can't compare Melee with a Caster for exemple, that wouldn't make any sense.

Every classe should be balanced but combat need to justify this balance, and of course they need to be balanced between each other to avoid an overpowered class. I didn't talk about combat or uptime at all. What I did was to talk on an average max value of DPS of each class, and keep those value inside their own role, then calculate the "Missing potency" over time.

I didn't talk about the composition of the full party so I kinda don't understand why you're bring this up by using my post.

"The issue is the outdated mentality that melee needs about 10% extra damage because of melee downtime when they are making fights with no melee downtime."

Melee aren't exactly that all mighty. Of course, Melee DPS is bigger today, but I remember a era where BLM was into the top DPS, and getting even higher DPS than melee.

What you want to adjust is giving potency according to "Tax" and balance it around the Savage raid Tier. Therefore, there will be no MCH/PLD/WAR Locked out of PF, no more 2 Melee/1 Cast/1 Ranged, etc etc....

As of today, there is issue with P8S DPS check that can't be reached by using certain composition of group. (Refer to my last post, because this is based on the DPS of each class.)

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Hold up, you raise an interesting point.
What's the purpose of range tax if Melee plays like ranged?

It's been something normal since years now that melees should have more damage because ranged can have full uptime.
The debate before was that since melee are depending on uptime strats, they should always have a fair bonus to not fall behind.

But in this tier and DSR, there's no such thing as melee uptime strats.
Melee uptime strats are naturally used due to the boss hitbox size.

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Actually, 2 pictures are worth a thousand words.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...27/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...65/unknown.png

I used to be a main melee in SB. Neo Exdeath hitbox was quite awful and you had several downtimes as a Melee. The tax was legit during that time.

Now, P8S second boss. That's one boi with a huge hitbox. No positional. Limitless Defamation can never be on the last row. All mechanics resolves on North. You can technically get screwed if you get the one tower that is on the third row edge. That's 1 in a 24 I believe.

There another boss that wants to say hi and it's Omega Prime. Whenever you'd deal with Hello World, Melees would lose a ton of uptime. Now, this guy, both High Concepts the boss is invulnerable :) Because they specifically design fights for melee to not lose uptime now. But they keep the tax on.

I know this isn't about the auto crit/DH subject. But by the Twelves knows this bs.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Sorry, but if you don't use a parser, you don't even realize if you're making a critical hit or not (except when you put the giga shield at the whole party).

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Do you not look at your flying text? Its VERY distinct when you get a crit or a DH+Crit. Playing samurai pre 6.1 I always looked up at the flying text and it was extremely satisfying to get those 80k+ crits. Seeing the auto crits during last tier barely do 28k was disheartening. All that build up which was the core of the jobs design only to see their big hits turn into wet noodles.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Hold up, you raise an interesting point.
What's the purpose of range tax if Melee plays like ranged?

It's been something normal since years now that melees should have more damage because ranged can have full uptime.
The debate before was that since melee are depending on uptime strats, they should always have a fair bonus to not fall behind.

But in this tier and DSR, there's no such thing as melee uptime strats.
Melee uptime strats are naturally used due to the boss hitbox size.

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This is the crux of the problem, melee don’t do 10% more damage because melee are better they are supposed to do 10% more damage to compensate for downtime, instead the hit box is so big and the boss becomes untargetable during the tiers only potential downtime mechanic so they basically just become phys ranged with a damage up buff

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Do you not look at your flying text? Its VERY distinct when you get a crit or a DH+Crit. Playing samurai pre 6.1 I always looked up at the flying text and it was extremely satisfying to get those 80k+ crits. Seeing the auto crits during last tier barely do 28k was disheartening. All that build up which was the core of the jobs design only to see their big hits turn into wet noodles.

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uhhm no, im just busy playing lol