Drk absorb hp, or mp, why was this nerfed

Why was this nerfed? Why are these two on the same cool down now. Obviously abyssal drain is the better ability to use, even on a single mob, might as well take the other off the bar -- It's a waste of a 60 second cool down for the 6% MP rather than taking the HP.

Putting these 2 abilities on the same cool down is like the only change that was made to drk for 6.0, so all we got was a straight nerf. It doesn't even make sense for them to share a CD.

That's not quite correct. At 510 potency, Carve and Spit is preferred over Abyssal Drain (150 potency) if you have three or less targets.

The main reason for this decision is because DRK already has a lot of oGCDs during its burst phases (this is also probably why Salted Earth is on an awkward 90 second recast). It would be nice, however, if they had an appropriately sized self-heal on Carve and Spit for single target scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

That's not quite correct. At 510 potency, Carve and Spit is preferred over Abyssal Drain (150 potency) if you have three or less targets.

The main reason for this decision is because DRK already has a lot of oGCDs during its burst phases (this is also probably why Salted Earth is on an awkward 90 second recast). It would be nice, however, if they had an appropriately sized self-heal on Carve and Spit for single target scenarios.

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Carve & Spit with a 1000 potency self heal would be amazing.

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Originally Posted by Xrison

Carve & Spit with a 1000 potency self heal would be amazing.

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No, that's ungodly broken.

Why? DRK doesnt have any other way to recover HP other than Souleater while every other tank have several ways to self heal, and considering Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit share cd a DRk would be unable to pull double heals even if they wanted.

Personally I would love a modified Lone Survivor skill that gives DRK a big heal and remove the lifesteal on Abyssal Drain because is either really good on mass pulls or outright garbage on single enemies, having a ogcd damage skill tied to self healing is a bad idea because either you hold it until you need it or use it as soon as its ready and lose the healing part.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

No, that's ungodly broken.

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How so? It has a 60 second CD. It's not as if you could spam it like another tank currently can. Not to mention it shares a CD with your only AOE heal

It's more appropriate to say that (most of) the skills have been merged - the intent was pretty obviously to give DRK one fewer oGCD to weave during burst windows. If you look at the Media Tour tooltips, Carve and Spit was set to be reduced to 360 potency (a result of the damage calculation changes), so the current 510 is the result of that 360 plus the 150 that you would have otherwise gained from Abyssal Drain. And the MP generation given to Abyssal Drain is the same idea in reverse; you get the MP that CnS would have given you when you use AD in an AoE situation.

The only two things that are kind of wonky about it are that CnS didn't absorb AD's heal (but that's not really a big deal as it was only 200p in singletarget anyway), and that the AD potency being woven into CnS means that it requires 4 targets to be a gain over CnS instead of the standard 3 (also not really a big deal, especially since DRK already breaks that standard by having some skills that are a gain at 2 targets and some at the standard 3).

I don't think it would be a tragedy to fully merge the skills by giving CnS a little 400-500p heal (as though you used AD on 2-2.5 targets), but in lieu of a larger overhaul to DRK's playstyle that doesn't put 8-12 oGCDs into a 6-GCD window, I think this merge was actually fine and it's not really necessary to change it.

This is a troll topic, right? Right?

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Originally Posted by Xrison

How so? It has a 60 second CD. It's not as if you could spam it like another tank currently can. Not to mention it shares a CD with your only AOE heal

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510 Potency DPS + 1000 Cure Potency (That can crit) is insanely strong, I'm all for sustain but we don't need tanks getting more sustain just to keep higher ground on War/Pld, however I wouldn't mind Souleater cure potency increased 300 > 400, or CnS with a 300-400 cure potency. Gaining MP would only fuel more DPS which isn't needed.

HoC isn't as powerful as it's made out to be. Bloodwhetting needs tuning on it's AOE, maybe cure potency reduced. Holy Spirit cures reduced to 300 potency possibly problem is Holy Circle, Circle is fine since it's proc per pop, not proc per hit.

The only reason they're so strong the sustain is because content isn't threatening enough, the sustains blitz through them.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

510 Potency DPS + 1000 Cure Potency (That can crit) is insanely strong

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No, that isn't strong. Equilibrium is a 60s cooldown with a 1200 Cure Potency.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, that isn't strong. Equilibrium is a 60s cooldown with a 1200 Cure Potency.

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It has a hot at later levels as well

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I wouldn't mind Souleater cure potency increased 300 > 400

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I'd argue that a better option would be keeping its potency at 300 but adding a damage shield equal to the amount healed, identical to GNB's brutal shell. That way, you effectively get a 600 potency heal/shield combo, and you run less risk of overhealing.

Equil with a HoT is just absurd. It's oGCD Clemency with Aurora tacked on now. And say whatever you want but Bloodwhetting is a broken ability. It's a god tier skill on a 25s CD for no resource cost whatsoever. You can take dbl buster stacks with HG and heal yourself to full without any assistance. Not to mention Chaos enhanced attacks are guaranteed crit heals. Which is more then the 400 potency it's trying to tell you it is. Which you can start getting meaty heals with just Overpower at 56.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, that isn't strong. Equilibrium is a 60s cooldown with a 1200 Cure Potency.

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We don't talk common sense here, you hear! DRK is OP, broken, busted, so over tuned that no one in their right mind would ever bring it into 4 man content!

For real though Undeadfire only talks about the game from a parse meta point of view. A point of view that means nothing to the vast majority of the player base, that is suffering playing DRK in any content, when they could just be playing easier, better tanks that don't have 16 OGCDs that all only do dmg.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

For real though Undeadfire only talks about the game from a parse meta point of view. A point of view that means nothing to the vast majority of the player base, that is suffering playing DRK in any content, when they could just be playing easier, better tanks that don't have 16 OGCDs that all only do dmg.

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You have to equalize around both standing points, casuals, and raiders. The majority of player base I understand they do not raid, but you give more buffs just to make the job feel more "fun" for the majority, you're only ending up breaking the job, and being must pick by priority, then it ends up with a disgusting tolerance, you must pick Dark Knight, or you're only hurting the team.

It's why you see barely potency upgrades/downgrades in balancing and multiple competitive games, it's a dangerous game to play.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

We don't talk common sense here, you hear! DRK is OP, broken, busted, so over tuned that no one in their right mind would ever bring it into 4 man content!

For real though Undeadfire only talks about the game from a parse meta point of view. A point of view that means nothing to the vast majority of the player base, that is suffering playing DRK in any content, when they could just be playing easier, better tanks that don't have 16 OGCDs that all only do dmg.

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More damage means faster kills = less damage income = less mechanics to play = less time invested. If ppl would like to go serious through 4 man content, you would always pick DRK imo. Who cares if the heal has to burn his oGCD´s into the tank, because it´s not a WAR?! That´s what those tools are for and with DRK´s damage, gg.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, that isn't strong. Equilibrium is a 60s cooldown with a 1200 Cure Potency.

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It doesn´t have multiproccs on hit.

Because DRK literally melts on dungeons compared to any other tank and even if DRK can pull better numbers than the other tanks, is at the healer's damage expense, so in the end they are not faster than other tanks because they need more atention from the healer.

TBN is terribad on group fights and even on single target is not that good compared to their improved equivalents, its only better until the other tanks reach lv 82 and get their equivalents superbuffed while TBN remains the same

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Because DRK literally melts on dungeons compared to any other tank and even if DRK can pull better numbers than the other tanks, is at the healer's damage expense, so in the end they are not faster than other tanks because they need more atention from the healer

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As long as the healer doesn´t have to use any GCD, he won´t lose any damage. SCH might be the only exception. And it´s still up to the player behind it, how fast a tank "melts". I´ve seen all surviving or even dieing to the same trashgroup, because either the tanks made mistakes, the healer, or both.

Idk, I still think TBN holds up better than Holy Shelltron and Heart of Conundrum for dungeon pulls
Actually TBN is flat out better than Holy Shelltron period if it pops

Don't get me wrong DRK sustain definitely needs work, but TBN holds it's weight as an individual skill just fine

Bloodwhetting is another story, but I think it's fine Warrior to be a queen of dungeons

Still fail to understand how Dark Knight suddenly melts in dungeons when Paladin in Shadowbringers, had 0 sustain, 2 mitigation cooldowns, did just fine doing wall to wall pulls, no healer complaints. Shield blocking is Paladins system of sustain, gcd attack heals have always outvalued.

Now Dark Knight is the OT, and suddenly it's too hard to stay alive.

Far as I'm seeing it, just too used to TBN being super strong in Shadowbringers, and realize you have to work more staying alive.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

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All of Undeadfire's demands are based around unilaterally buffing PLD's dps and nerfing every other tank's utility. Someone who was interested purely in min/max gameplay wouldn't waste their time arguing about self-sustain gameplay. What, are we all trying to maximize our healing per second now?

Having DRK absorb HP with Carve and Spit would be lore breaking. Everyone knows that PLD is the master of vampiric magicks, which is why their Abyssal Spirit/Abyssal Circle spells are probably more efficient for healing than their classical Clemency spell. PLD is the new Moira now, doesn't want to throw healing orb.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

More damage means faster kills = less damage income = less mechanics to play = less time invested. If ppl would like to go serious through 4 man content, you would always pick DRK imo. Who cares if the heal has to burn his oGCD´s into the tank, because it´s not a WAR?! That´s what those tools are for and with DRK´s damage, gg.

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No, time spent babysitting the drk means less time spent dealing damage. Dark knight is *barely* above Gunbreaker in terms of high end content, has worse a defensive kit, and is poorly designed. War in 4 mans on the other hand, does not require baby sitting. meaning the healer can do damage. meaning things die faster.


Also having a heal on C&S would be cool. It's kind of funny how you argue against skills with multiple effects when paladin literally has a gcd damaging spell that under requiescat does *the more damage than C&S and has a 400 heal potency on top of it.*

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

Idk, I still think TBN holds up better than Holy Shelltron and Heart of Conundrum for dungeon pulls
Actually TBN is flat out better than Holy Shelltron period if it pops

Don't get me wrong DRK sustain definitely needs work, but TBN holds it's weight as an individual skill just fine

Bloodwhetting is another story, but I think it's fine Warrior to be a queen of dungeons

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How is a TBN that breaks literally in .5 seconds (then on CD for 15s) during a big pull better than the continuous defense and self-healing of Heart of C and Holy Sheltron? I seriously don't understand.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

More damage means faster kills = less damage income = less mechanics to play = less time invested. If ppl would like to go serious through 4 man content, you would always pick DRK imo. Who cares if the heal has to burn his oGCD´s into the tank, because it´s not a WAR?! That´s what those tools are for and with DRK´s damage, gg.

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The flaw in that logic is that if you were to seriously speedrun dungeons you would just ditch the healer entirely and take WAR and 3 DPS. Something that was actually done routinely in Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

No, time spent babysitting the drk means less time spent dealing damage. Dark knight is *barely* above Gunbreaker in terms of high end content, has worse a defensive kit, and is poorly designed. War in 4 mans on the other hand, does not require baby sitting. meaning the healer can do damage. meaning things die faster

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Healers have multiple amounts of O-GCDS, if you're making a competent Healer use GCDs just to keep you alive, it's really on the tank for not using rotated tank cooldowns properly, or DPS not pulling enough damage.

It has nothing to do with other tanks having more " heal sustains" except Warriors temporary invincible mode. A more competent tank is always going to play better with the situation than burn everything.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

The flaw in that logic is that if you were to seriously speedrun dungeons you would just ditch the healer entirely and take WAR and 3 DPS. Something that was actually done routinely in Shadowbringers.

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Nah, you would go for 2x Reaper / 2x DNC and call it a day. But the whole thematic is about standard comps isn´t it?!

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

No, time spent babysitting the drk means less time spent dealing damage. Dark knight is *barely* above Gunbreaker in terms of high end content, has worse a defensive kit, and is poorly designed. War in 4 mans on the other hand, does not require baby sitting. meaning the healer can do damage. meaning things die faster.
Also having a heal on C&S would be cool. It's kind of funny how you argue against skills with multiple effects when paladin literally has a gcd damaging spell that under requiescat does *the more damage than C&S and has a 400 heal potency on top of it.*

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You should read a bit further:

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

As long as the healer doesn´t have to use any GCD, he won´t lose any damage. SCH might be the only exception. And it´s still up to the player behind it, how fast a tank "melts". I´ve seen all surviving or even dieing to the same trashgroup, because either the tanks made mistakes, the healer, or both.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

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If your tank doesn't require healing, then your healers have more uptime. If your healers have enough uptime, then you can swap out a healer for a dps. That's the point being made.

Good tanks and healers plan their cooldowns out together on spreadsheets to maximize healer uptime because of how hard scripted this game is. It's not like you can evaluate any of this in isolation.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

You should read a bit further:

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This is true in an ideal world. 'as long as' is a fallacy, and shouldn't be accounted for. Dungeons are not difficult, but mistakes happen.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Healers have multiple amounts of O-GCDS, if you're making a competent Healer use GCDs just to keep you alive, it's really on the tank for not using rotated tank cooldowns properly, or DPS not pulling enough damage.It has nothing to do with other tanks having more " heal sustains" except Warriors temporary invincible mode. A more competent tank is always going to play better with the situation than burn everything.

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Of course, however drk's current defensive kit is still weaker than other tanks and is the only one with a invuln that requires the healer to pay attention to the tank. while the usage of the latter skill would imply a weaker tank playing the job, it also renders said skill effectively worthless if either the tank is competent or the healer is actively paying attention to the tank (this is barring circumstances where the tank and healer are communicating properly, but i digress). I'm not even talking about tank self heals. PLD, GNB, and War just simply have the better defensive kits.

I'm just starting to feel guilty playing this class with how much I see supports struggle to maintain it. I don't care about marginal DPS advantages, its not a good feeling.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

How is a TBN that breaks literally in .5 seconds (then on CD for 15s) during a big pull better than the continuous defense and self-healing of Heart of C and Holy Sheltron? I seriously don't understand.

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I'm wondering this too. I can't think of any situation where TBN is better than Holy Sheltron as a tank.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

PLD, GNB, and War just simply have the better defensive kits.

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Then why does Dark Knight, need more fixes on this?

My question is this, Paladin has had no self mitigation upgrades till Endwalker, all in the past stuck with 2 cooldowns, guaranteed shield block, and Intervention which cannot be used on it's self. It handled Dungeons, EX trials, Savage raids, Ultimates without much issues tanking over Drk/War/Gnb when needed, not preferably, E3S/E8S specially attacked both tanks permanently, TEA phase 2 attacks both tanks. Why does Dark Knight suddenly need more mitigation when it really isn't the problem? Micela is very correct the sustain is over the top and needs bringing down.

Abyssal Drain and Carve&Spit were likely put on the same recast to reduce double weaves.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

No, that's ungodly broken.

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But Equilibrium being a 2200 potency heal isn't? The initial 1200p of Equil is even buffed by Thrill.

Adding a Cure potency to Carve&Spit is irrelevant. Holding C&S for the heal would be a damage loss. If it were 1000p heal, it'd still be the weakest tank selfheal. And every tank's healing can crit, even HoTs.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It doesnt have multiproccs on hit.

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There are no Endwalker dungeons with an 11+ mob pull for AD to beat Equilibrium, or at least I can't remember any. For a healing tool that can only be used in dungeons, it's the weakest tank heal in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

No, that's ungodly broken.

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Paladins have a 1000 potency heal on a 25s cooldown (Holy Sheltron).

Warriors have a 1200 potency heal on a 60s Cooldown (Equilibrium)

Gunbreakers have a 1200 potency heal on a 30s cooldown (Aurora) at 60s recharging every 30s.

Hydaelyn forbid that Dark Knights get a decent self heal outside of TBN.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Paladins have a 1000 potency heal on a 25s cooldown (Holy Sheltron).

Warriors have a 1200 potency heal on a 60s Cooldown (Equilibrium)

Gunbreakers have a 1200 potency heal on a 30s cooldown (Aurora) at 60s recharging every 30s.

Hydaelyn forbid that Dark Knights get a decent self heal outside of TBN.

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Warrior's Equilibrium is 1200p initial heal and 1000 hot, for 2200 total.

Gunbreaker's Aurora is a 60s recast, it stacks twice. Stacking has no effect on recast. It is not a 30s cd.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

This is true in an ideal world. 'as long as' is a fallacy, and shouldn't be accounted for. Dungeons are not difficult, but mistakes happen.

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Yeah they happen, but this got already kept in mind in kind of the overall dungeon balancing. The content is not even casual, it´s braindead, meanwhile healers and tanks are able to solo the most stuff. DPS are the only ones who needs to be carried somehow. You´ve a lot of possibilities, you can outgear the whole dungeon, you can pull less, and and and...

That the content or class balancing should go from "highly broken tanks + braindead content" to "super duper extreme broken tanks + zombie-mode content" is a no-go. Imo the whole topics everywhere are just about "Please make everything broken, DRK isn´t as broken as WAR imo, pls change." Of course ppl use other words, but it lasts like this.
And seriously it doesn´t make sense to throw healers and the overall tank-competence out of the window, because we would´ve 4 tanks sitting on 123 gameplay with emergency-buttons for the whole group. If a bunch of ppl would actually put a bare minimum efford in their jobs instead of relying on broken kits, they could also have fun running through dungeons.

Balancing is a hard step, i know. But in kind of FF14 it´s not balancing, it´s just homogenization and overtuning to prepare for the WORST worst cases of all time and to make the classes "more accessible" like everyone would be 3 or 80 years old. (Just saying healer LB3, when they normally don´t even use their whole kit.)
And the "community" assists that kind of homogenization. Pretty much any feedback is more like "Why DRK is not like WAR in self-sustain?, Why does MNK has no gapclosers like SAM?, Why does BLM don´t have a rezz?" and so on. Everything have to be perfect aligned and scripted, needs to be broken and easy to use. This is a nightmare for the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

Of course, however drk's current defensive kit is still weaker than other tanks and is the only one with a invuln that requires the healer to pay attention to the tank. while the usage of the latter skill would imply a weaker tank playing the job, it also renders said skill effectively worthless if either the tank is competent or the healer is actively paying attention to the tank (this is barring circumstances where the tank and healer are communicating properly, but i digress). I'm not even talking about tank self heals. PLD, GNB, and War just simply have the better defensive kits.

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That´s highly opinion-based, especially the last statement.

DRK´s invul might be somehow special, but it has actually the best design and all of them are somehow balanced out throuth the use-time and cooldown. Invul is a superior tool and in kind of DRK you´re going to think twice about "should i use it?", unless you´re a WHM with benediction ready. That´s how such superior surviving-tools should work. Not like e.g. PLD Hallowed Ground, which can carry whole raids whrough badass mechanics with a tethered heal + LB3 or is just used because it has no cons.

And if you take the healing tools from others away, DRK should be superior. All of them has the 3 same defs aka Reprisal, Rampant and the 30% hard cd. Then all of them share one unique def, but that´s it.
PLD is already going to lose since any other defs assists only his group members and he needs to be healed to make use of one of them. The other 3 share a 60s cooldown, which is so far balanced throughout the kit and better / worse based on the situation. GNB is the only one with an extra cd, meanwhile PLD has a blockchance. And both are needed, because they don´t have such strong tools like BLN or Raw Intuition (With heal ofc).
Without counting the healing, DRK would win hard i guess with a 15s hard cd without a real con.

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Originally Posted by Luin

There are no Endwalker dungeons with an 11+ mob pull for AD to beat Equilibrium, or at least I can't remember any. For a healing tool that can only be used in dungeons, it's the weakest tank heal in dungeons.

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Man it has been about a joked "1000 potency" before. 1000 healing potency on a heal with multiprocc, when WARs 400 are already way too much?
It hasn´t been about a comparison in that way.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Then why does Dark Knight, need more fixes on this?

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My question is this, Paladin has had no self mitigation upgrades till Endwalker, all in the past stuck with 2 cooldowns, guaranteed shield block, and Intervention which cannot be used on it's self.

It handled Dungeons, EX trials, Savage raids, Ultimates without much issues tanking over Drk/War/Gnb when needed, not preferably, E3S/E8S specially attacked both tanks permanently, TEA phase 2 attacks both tanks. Why does Dark Knight suddenly need more mitigation when it really isn't the problem? Micela is very correct the sustain is over the top and needs bringing down.

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I never said anything was wrong with pld pre endwalker. I quite like how paladin was improved, and would have welcomed qol changes like the ones they received in endwalker had they come earlier.

Even then it wasn't just paladin. *everyone had weaker defensive skills besides dark knight.* stone, RI, sheltron? all weaker. Damage was scaled to account for those weaker skills as well. TBN was stronger because that was the competition. the rest of the kits across all the tanks is identical barring their invulns and ribbon skills.

DRK needs a defensive buff simply because of how things have been changed. TBN is competing with skills that do far more than it, without drawback for misuse, and are still stronger irregardless. living dead is at this point a worse holmgang that has a minute longer cooldown. Oblation is decent. kinda.

Sustain is fine. we don't even have savage trials out, and even then sustain is acceptable in the two ex trials. Wouldn't mess with that until 4.2 since that gives them time to design boss mechanics around jobs with less sustain.

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DRK´s invul might be somehow special, but it has actually the best design and all of them are somehow balanced out throuth the use-time and cooldown.

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Living dead is well designed in theory, in practice it's a mess. It is interesting on paper to have an invuln that relies on healers to function, but more often than not it just dissuades players from using it outside of situations where coordination is already a given, and even then you rarely get the full effect from it.

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Invul is a superior tool and in kind of DRK you´re going to think twice about "should i use it?", unless you´re a WHM with benediction ready. That´s how such superior surviving-tools should work. Not like e.g. PLD Hallowed Ground, which can carry whole raids whrough badass mechanics with a tethered heal + LB3 or is just use because it has no cons.

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While HG is a better skill than LD, Holmgang and superbolide exist, have the same duration as HG, and has a shorter cooldown. It's kind of baffling that hallowed has such a long CD even though it's actual comparisons have barely any drawbacks.

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And if you take the healing tools from others away, DRK should be superior. All of them has the 3 same defs aka Reprisal, Rampant and the 30% hard cd. Then all of them share one unique def, but that´s it.

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taking away things is boring and defeats the purpose of giving them that sustain in the first place.

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PLD is already going to lose since any other defs assists only his group members and he needs to be healed to make use of one of them. The other 3 share a 60s cooldown, which is so far balanced throughout the kit and better / worse based on the situation. GNB is the only one with an extra cd, meanwhile PLD has a blockchance. And both are needed, because they don´t have such strong tools like BLN or Raw Intuition (With heal ofc).
Without counting the healing, DRK would win hard i guess with a 15s hard cd without a real con.

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This block of text is kind of a mess? If you are predicting what would happen if we removed sustain from the other jobs we'd just be back to shadowbringers but with slightly better cds. I just left shadowbringers. I do not wish to return.

I just tried both.

We know Warriors heals are broken, no reason to discuss more, it needs nerfing badly.

Holy Sheltron vs TBN, Holy Sheltron is slightly above it, or below it depending on regen ticks. TBN on yourself/tank partner is around 18k at highest current HP.

I'm aware of Holy Spirits healing, but Paladin cannot use on demand, it's a synced rotation, and trying to use Clemency only hurts it.

GNB can't even main tank anymore, it literally can't fit everything in No Mercy.

Dark Knights TBN rework would be fine, but adding another power heal by demand is seriously crazy with TBN, you know how broken that is? Souleater/Brutal Shell/Storms Path are used a lot. TBN is trashy to use, but keeping roughly 18k shield and having a power heal? Bruh... However Living Dead has been needing a tune up for years.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

How is a TBN that breaks literally in .5 seconds (then on CD for 15s) during a big pull better than the continuous defense and self-healing of Heart of C and Holy Sheltron? I seriously don't understand.

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Because "continuous defense and self-healing" isn't all that important when you're comparing a 15-second recast to a 25-second recast. You're comparing 100% mitigation for 1-2 seconds on a 15 second recast to 28% mitigation for 4 seconds and then 15% mitigation for another 4 seconds followed by 17 seconds of the skill being on cooldown - the self-heal isn't gravy on top of a better mitigative skill; it's basically a hard requirement just for it to be able to keep pace with the much faster cooldown.

If you go look at a detailed log of what happens during a dungeon pull when a GNB uses Heart of Corundum at the peak of incoming damage during a pull, you'll find that it's most often mitigating about 11-12k damage and healing 12-13k damage, for a total swing of 23-25k HP over a 25 second cycle. If you look at the same log of what happens during the same pull with a DRK using TBN at the peak of incoming damage, you're shielding for 17.5k-19k HP over a 15 second cycle.

The two skills are within about 10% of each other in terms of overall sustained mitigation, and the difference is most often tilted in TBN's favour.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

Sustain is fine. we don't even have savage trials out, and even then sustain is acceptable in the two ex trials. Wouldn't mess with that until 4.2 since that gives them time to design boss mechanics around jobs with less sustain.

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Sorry but sustain is laughable. The 1st primal is going to be played without healers or soloheal already, the 2nd with soloheal, solotank or even both. The damage income is a joke, tankbusters can be taken without cooldowns, stack-tankbusters can be taken solo with 1-2 cooldowns since nothing comes between them. Imo the addphase at the 2nd EX hurts more than the whole boss.
And healers sit on a bunch of medigation tools, have 80% critshields, extra barriers and other stuff. Stuff you do even barely use and which just got added for the way too often used multistack-marks. The only way to wipe is still because either the healer or the DPS fckd up 2 mechanics in a row and died poorly 5s before the named stackmarker appears, meanwhile tanks are undying monsters who´ll still survive that big aoe with 5 vuln-stacks.

The content-balance has been bad and is even worse imo. The only reason why "savage is savage" is because you´ve one-shot mechanics which will wipe the whole raid if 1 out of 8 players stays 1mm too far away from his spot. The only reason why so many statics need that long is because 1 or 2 ppl can´t remember what´s going on or need a navigation tool for that little arena. Not because their jobs have not enough tools or because the overall mechanics are so hard to play.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Dark Knights TBN rework would be fine, but adding another power heal by demand is seriously crazy with TBN, you know how broken that is? Souleater/Brutal Shell/Storms Path are used a lot. TBN is trashy to use, but keeping roughly 18k shield and having a power heal? Bruh... However Living Dead has been needing a tune up for years.

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If TBN and living dead are reworked they don't need the same level of sustain as the other tanks. Throwing a weak self heal on an already existing cooldown (no more than 400 potency) or slightly buffing soul eater would be more than enough.