Samurai Sword Pressure/Shoha Stacks

Samurai should be able to hold I wanna say about 5 Stacks.
My reasoning is because on a certain point in your double midare, you have press shoha then tsubame midare really fast so you don't hold the GCD for too long and clip, also makeing sure you don't forget and don't overfill on the shoha stack.
Its kinda clunky the way it is now and extra stacks will fix it.

Hard no. SAM needs something to actually keep track of. Jinpu and Shifu are literally nothing. Sens are nothing. Even Kenki itself is nothing since every single sen combo generates enough kenki for Kaiten. It's no more clunky than having to weave any other oGCD after midare, or tsubame.

If SAM just absolutely must receive such a change it should be no more than 1 extra stack. If the core of your complaint is simply, truely, honestly, "using shoha betwixt midares is clunky" and not "I want to be able to get double shoha into raid buffs always" than a single extra stack is more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

Hard no. SAM needs something to actually keep track of. Jinpu and Shifu are literally nothing. Sens are nothing. Even Kenki itself is nothing since every single sen combo generates enough kenki for Kaiten. It's no more clunky than having to weave any other oGCD after midare, or tsubame.

If SAM just absolutely must receive such a change it should be no more than 1 extra stack. If the core of your complaint is simply, truely, honestly, "using shoha betwixt midares is clunky" and not "I want to be able to get double shoha into raid buffs always" than a single extra stack is more than enough.

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Hard no because you feel samurai needs something to keep track of? That's a pretty bad argument seeing as other melees have nothing to keep track of no more than samurai if you think that.

Tell me. Which melee has to really focus on keeping try of? Blood of the dragon? Huton? Grease lightning? Twin snakes?
See where I'm going? Why does sam have to be an expectation according to you.

Don't get me wrong, it's not hard to press both quickly but there has been times I have forgotten.
It is the same as pressing a Ogcd between midare and tsubame but why would you? Could just wait after tsubame.
What's different is Shoha isn't a timed Ogcd you can only use it with 3 stacks.
So if mess up you get a pretty hefty dps lost since you'll be behind.
1 stack at most of sword pressure wouldn't buff sam, just a QoL.

Samurai keeps track of Boss Aoes so they can proc Third Eye.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Samurai keeps track of Boss Aoes so they can proc Third Eye.

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Monks keep track of aoes for riddle of earth.
Also using seigan is such a small gain you can not even touch it.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Hard no because you feel samurai needs something to keep track of? That's a pretty bad argument seeing as other melees have nothing to keep track of no more than samurai if you think that.

Tell me. Which melee has to really focus on keeping try of? Blood of the dragon? Huton? Grease lightning? Twin snakes?
See where I'm going? Why does sam have to be an expectation according to you.

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You are comparing Shoha stacks to general buffs which not what it is
More like Chakra or Mirage dive its no different
Other Melee have multiple Buffs and OGCD they have to keep track of while Samurai has hardly anything

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Originally Posted by Duskane

You are comparing Shoha stacks to general buffs which not what it is
More like Chakra or Mirage dive its no different
Other Melee have multiple Buffs and OGCD they have to keep track of while Samurai has hardly anything

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I mean, it's not like a Sam has strictly nothing to worry about. We focus on Tsubame cooldown mainly, as well as keeping 100% uptime in order not to drift our rotation.

But I agree, this isn't the change we need on sam. Shoha feels clunky sometimes but that's not the skill itself, more like Tsubame that has to get used instantly or else it goes to waste. Since the 5.0 class changes preview were released peoples said that having Tsubame only usable on the next GCD following a Midare was a terrible idea due to how it forces you into a clunky rotation (erasing a yukikaze sen just to line up every time) since we can't have enough or too few SkS to align correctly.

Everything else on sam is fine and can be adjusted. Tsubame however forces player to adapt to a really bad design choice and causes issues by doing so (weaving shoha between the two). Just give a two or three gcd window to use tsubame and you've fixed sam in every way possible :p

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I mean, it's not like a Sam has strictly nothing to worry about. We focus on Tsubame cooldown mainly, as well as keeping 100% uptime in order not to drift our rotation.

But I agree, this isn't the change we need on sam. Shoha feels clunky sometimes but that's not the skill itself, more like Tsubame that has to get used instantly or else it goes to waste. Since the 5.0 class changes preview were released peoples said that having Tsubame only usable on the next GCD following a Midare was a terrible idea due to how it forces you into a clunky rotation (erasing a yukikaze sen just to line up every time) since we can't have enough or too few SkS to align correctly.

Everything else on sam is fine and can be adjusted. Tsubame however forces player to adapt to a really bad design choice and causes issues by doing so (weaving shoha between the two). Just give a two or three gcd window to use tsubame and you've fixed sam in every way possible :p

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It's a combination of instant use Tsubame and change to Hagakure that have caused most of Samurai issues, honestly. I'm not sure why Yoshi thought that Sam was too complicated to play before when removing Hagakure is what lead to the really strict rotations we have now with fillers and the like. Sam was actually easier when you could adapt. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's a combination of instant use Tsubame and change to Hagakure that have caused most of Samurai issues, honestly. I'm not sure why Yoshi thought that Sam was too complicated to play before when removing Hagakure is what lead to the really strict rotations we have now with fillers and the like. Sam was actually easier when you could adapt. Lol.

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at least we got back Hagakure since 5.0 lol. Well... Kinda.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

You are comparing Shoha stacks to general buffs which not what it is
More like Chakra or Mirage dive its no different
Other Melee have multiple Buffs and OGCD they have to keep track of while Samurai has hardly anything

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Not gonna try and prove you wrong as its a waste.
Don't join in on a discussion on a job you have no knowledge about. Because if you did, you would know samurai has just as much to keep track of as the other melee's.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Not gonna try and prove you wrong as its a waste.
Don't join in on a discussion on a job you have no knowledge about. Because if you did, you would know samurai has just as much to keep track of as the other melee's.

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Whoa there....

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

Hard no. SAM needs something to actually keep track of. Jinpu and Shifu are literally nothing. Sens are nothing. Even Kenki itself is nothing since every single sen combo generates enough kenki for Kaiten. It's no more clunky than having to weave any other oGCD after midare, or tsubame.

If SAM just absolutely must receive such a change it should be no more than 1 extra stack. If the core of your complaint is simply, truely, honestly, "using shoha betwixt midares is clunky" and not "I want to be able to get double shoha into raid buffs always" than a single extra stack is more than enough.

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Changing the maximum number of stacks has zero effect on the difficulty of tracking a skill that can only be used at max stacks and for which stack generation cannot be feasibly manipulated enough to make any difference.

That said, neither would changing the maximum number of stacks remove the conflict Shoha stacks have with Tsubame-Gaeshi.

They're both irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Also using seigan is such a small gain you can not even touch it.

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It's 94% of a positional. That's small only if you also consider using proper positionals on SAM, who has the highest positional cost of any melee outside of Bootshine/Leaden-Fist, small.

As for how much SAM has to keep track of, one need only turn the other job's attention to Tsubame-Gaeshi, which includes with its management concepts of Yukikaze Higans to advance 1 GCD, no-Yukikaze MKSSs to advance 1 GCD, Yaten-Enpi to delay a GCD, Yuki-Haga to delay 2 GCDs, and Gekko/Kasha-Haga to delay 3 GCDs, all of which must be tracked against downtime and any add DoT/cleaves.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's a combination of instant use Tsubame and change to Hagakure that have caused most of Samurai issues, honestly. I'm not sure why Yoshi thought that Sam was too complicated to play before when removing Hagakure is what lead to the really strict rotations we have now with fillers and the like. Sam was actually easier when you could adapt. Lol.

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I used to hate the change to Hagakure, but since it's buff it's actually made for an incredibly smooth and consistent curve to effort-to-percentile performance increase across the various manipulations it makes possible in the context of Tsubame-Gaeshi, thus still reaching its upper-level benefits, while also being more casual- and dungeon-friendly than ever. Removing it was devastating. 5 Kenki per Sen was a slap to the face. But 10 Kenki each? It's just punishing enough to be interesting without being overly restrictive.

On topic:
Since we're not merging, and will never have sufficient reason to merge, Meditate and Shoha's hotkeys, just...

1. Let Shoha be used whenever we want so we can enter Meditate with 0 stacks, albeit at reduced efficiency per stack prior to max stacks, e.g. 100/240/400 potency across 1/2/3 stacks so we're not spamming it constantly (lose 22 to 33 potency for using it early).

   Issue: The aforementioned spam and worrying about syncing future Shoha uses to raid buffs, though that's really just skill-ceiling that those who can handle will want and those who cannot, wont.

2. [Simpler and smoother] Increase Shoha damage to 500 potency and have Tsubame-Gaeshi give no Shoha stacks. TG gives about 20% of our total Shoha stack generation. Removing it (5-->4) would therefore have to be compensated for by a 25% increase (4-->5) to Shoha potency.

   Issue: A greater percentage of Shoha uses may fall outside of raid buffs, and we're already outperformed by Summoner, largely due to how much better their burst damage can be realigned to damage windows.

3. [Most gimmicky, but causing the fewest changes] If Shoha stacks are already capped, have TG have the next Shoha refund a Shoha stack instead of granting a Shoha stack instantly.

   Issue: Reduced low-ping hegemony?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Changing the maximum number of stacks has zero effect on the difficulty of tracking a skill that can only be used at max stacks and for which stack generation cannot be feasibly manipulated enough to make any difference.

That said, neither would changing the maximum number of stacks remove the conflict Shoha stacks have with Tsubame-Gaeshi.

They're both irrelevant.



It's 94% of a positional. That's small only if you also consider using proper positionals on SAM, who has the highest positional cost of any melee outside of Bootshine/Leaden-Fist, small.

As for how much SAM has to keep track of, one need only turn the other job's attention to Tsubame-Gaeshi, which includes with its management concepts of Yukikaze Higans to advance 1 GCD, no-Yukikaze MKSSs to advance 1 GCD, Yaten-Enpi to delay a GCD, Yuki-Haga to delay 2 GCDs, and Gekko/Kasha-Haga to delay 3 GCDs, all of which must be tracked against downtime and any add DoT/cleaves.

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Wait...what are you talking about? Seigan is the counter attack and has no postional. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying or you misunderstood what I said.

Its a VERY SMALL gain in your dps. I'm not saying not to ever use it as you should for predicable AOE's but don't clip your GCD's or go outta your way to use it as it won't boost your dps THAT much. Like it'll add up but don't expect to see huge numbers for it. If I look at my old logs I can see seigan while almost getting all the possible aoe's with third eye in levi.

My 14 seigans did 210.9 Dps
compared to my 10 higanbana that did 302.0 and this is the initial hit, not the dot tick. Granted it is getting buffed by kaiten but still, 14 Seigans don't even equal to the damage of 10 initial hit bana's.
So again, use this attack for predictable aoe's but don't go outta your way to try and third eye and clipping which can happen in a certain part of your rotation if you're trying to min n' max and get every seigan.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Wait...what are you talking about? Seigan is the counter attack and has no postional.

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A positional is worth 64 potency. A Seigan is worth 60 potency per use, 93.75% of a positional. If you wouldn't ignore a positional, why would you ignore a Seigan, either? Neither costs you anything to use except in very few, very particular situations in very few, very particular fights. That is all. I in no way said Seigan required that SAM be appropriately positioned. There is no such thing as a 94% of a flank or rear...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A positional is worth 64 potency. A Seigan is worth 60 potency per use, 93.75% of a positional. If you wouldn't ignore a positional, why would you ignore a Seigan, either? Neither costs you anything to use except in very few, very particular situations in very few, very particular fights. That is all. I in no way said Seigan required that SAM be appropriately positioned. There is no such thing as a 94% of a flank or rear...

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Yeah though the difference is that you can only proc it on hit. Which in seigan case every Aoe and in some cases you're deep in your rotation, usually in your burst phase, you have no time to press third eye unless you wanna clip for a small gain in dps that won't boost your numbers that much.
I get what you're saying now but you're overestimating and like I said, do it if you know an aoe is coming up but you can safety ignore the skill. I been playing samurai for a very long time, I'm not perfect but I parsed and tried to min n' max enough fights to know that it won't help that much.
Some of my highest parses beat my other parses with less seigans where I did only like 2 of them compared to one where I did 9 of them.

Heck if you look at the highest parses for sam for the current fights like ramuh, some of the top sams only use it once or twice to the current top sam doing like 6.

They should make our Seigan proc meditate stacks! yeah!

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Originally Posted by MajisTek

They should make our Seigan proc meditate stacks! yeah!

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I mean, that'd be an additional 320-384 potency per minute for... what, exactly?

We're a bit behind right now, but is that really where we want to make the difference?

I agree with the others, Shoha is just the symptom, Tsubame Gaeshi is the culprit. I would prefer adjustments to Tsubame over Shoha. If they want to stick to their guns, maybe a single extra Shoha charge, just to avoid that one Shoha between Midare and Tsubame.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I agree with the others, Shoha is just the symptom, Tsubame Gaeshi is the culprit. I would prefer adjustments to Tsubame over Shoha. If they want to stick to their guns, maybe a single extra Shoha charge, just to avoid that one Shoha between Midare and Tsubame.

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I mean, they already touched Shoha enough, I think that any more tinkering with the skill will not change the main issue anyway. I'm against the idea of an extra stack since this would be completely different from the mentality they have about overcapping ressource. With Bard you cannot stack Bloodletter procs so you have to use it on cooldown. Machinist don't have an extra 20 to their gauge to prevent overcapping... Every class demands that you prevent overcapping by using the ability, not by giving you some extra gauge to avoid overcapping.
In fact, the current design makes samurai quite akward when it comes to this, looking at how we have to completely twist our basic rotation to use Tsubame on cooldown. The flaw in the design lies within Tsubame from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I mean, they already touched Shoha enough, I think that any more tinkering with the skill will not change the main issue anyway. I'm against the idea of an extra stack since this would be completely different from the mentality they have about overcapping ressource. With Bard you cannot stack Bloodletter procs so you have to use it on cooldown. Machinist don't have an extra 20 to their gauge to prevent overcapping... Every class demands that you prevent overcapping by using the ability, not by giving you some extra gauge to avoid overcapping.
In fact, the current design makes samurai quite akward when it comes to this, looking at how we have to completely twist our basic rotation to use Tsubame on cooldown. The flaw in the design lies within Tsubame from the beginning.

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Actually most jobs and gauges prevent overcapping, the cost and the maximum capacity of a gauge usually has an overhead of two times whatever the most expensive skill for it is. The only exception to that is Monk, which doesn't have any flexibility on using its gauge because its gauge is and always has been terribly designed. You're either full on Chakra and can use Chakra or you aren't full and can't use Chakra skills. Monk/Chakra is actually worse than Samurai/Meditate in this regard though because procs are random so we can't plan around it even in the worst case like having 2 meditation going into a Midare>Tsubame, you'll just cap on Chakra when you're already committed to a different oGCD and you'll just lose an additional random proc if you crit on the GCD after.

We've been complaining about it for years, but we've been complaining about a lot of things for years. They changed Shoha within a patch for you though so they're more likely to listen to Samurai.

The Only change i could EVER see to Samurai is Third eye being changed to 5 seconds, but i don't think it'll EVER go beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

The Only change i could EVER see to Samurai is Third eye being changed to 5 seconds, but i don't think it'll EVER go beyond that.

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And... why? Samurai retaining bad design, however minor in its effect, would serve you... how?

This is like saying heyday Monk should never have Brotherhood applied to all damage or that TFC be allowed to be spent at earlier stack counts or Chakra capped increased to 7 while TFC remains at 5 -- all good designs -- despite that Monk potency could be pared down in the bargain.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

*snip*

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Well technically procs for chakra are based on GCDs, so you can technically predict them. Brotherhood makes it kinda difficult that I agree, but due to standard party composition not being 8 physical class you often don't have five chakras proc at once. The fact that monks GCDs are the fastest of the game also enables more windows to used oGCDs like forbidden chakra. But I do understand the issue with the gauge as it is.

Still they reduced the rng factor of most class by a lot this expac, dancer being kinda the only exception and peoples hate this aspect of the class. Maybe with 6.0 random chakra procs will be only but a memory. :p

I'd like to agree about the "listening" part, but I think they just figured out that the skill was crap or not used properly (peoples fishing for meditate procs wasn't what the devs wanted, just like they didn't want anatman fishing) so they reworked both Meditate and Shoha.

We all know anyway that a handfull of jobs needs a rework on some specific skills to be truly enjoyable. SE showed us however that they weren't afraid of reworking entirely jobs that needed it, so my guess is that they will eventually change individual skills too so that jobs are more enjoyables.

Efficient is nice. Fun and efficient is better. Currently a lot of jobs lacks some fun factor. No job has less right to ask for that than another one.

(Since they don't listen anyway lmao :rolleyes: )

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

Well technically procs for chakra are based on GCDs, so you can technically predict them.

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Yes, but not to a degree that is terribly useful. They come up so late that you have to be pre-spamming Meditate/TFC at 4 Chakra to possibly get TFC off before costing you uptime, which then risks the abomination that is using Meditate during melee uptime if you have any latency. Because of that delay, which initially seems faint, but at GL4 is punishing, this gets increasingly problematic with lower GCD speeds.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I mean, they already touched Shoha enough, I think that any more tinkering with the skill will not change the main issue anyway. I'm against the idea of an extra stack since this would be completely different from the mentality they have about overcapping ressource. With Bard you cannot stack Bloodletter procs so you have to use it on cooldown. Machinist don't have an extra 20 to their gauge to prevent overcapping... Every class demands that you prevent overcapping by using the ability, not by giving you some extra gauge to avoid overcapping.
In fact, the current design makes samurai quite akward when it comes to this, looking at how we have to completely twist our basic rotation to use Tsubame on cooldown. The flaw in the design lies within Tsubame from the beginning.

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Its was an example in case they really want to keep Tsubame as inflexible as it is. Personally I don't care much about the how, as long as I don't have to cram in that odd Shoha between the Midare and the Tsubame anymore.

Even if I pay attention, thats a pretty narrow window for an oGCD.

I think if they removed the cast time on Iaijutsu using Shoha in between your double Midares wouldn't be a problem. Then you wouldn't need extra stacks of Meditation.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think if they removed the cast time on Iaijutsu using Shoha in between your double Midares wouldn't be a problem. Then you wouldn't need extra stacks of Meditation.

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And you remove a core part of Samurai's identity. Let's not.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And you remove a core part of Samurai's identity. Let's not.

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I don't really see that as part of it's identity. Just a game play mechanic. I see things like Dragoons Jumping and Ninjas casting Ninjutsu as Identities. Not have an arbitrary cast time attached to your skill as one.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I don't really see that as part of it's identity. Just a game play mechanic. I see things like Dragoons Jumping and Ninjas casting Ninjutsu as Identities. Not have an arbitrary cast time attached to your skill as one.

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The literal entirety of SAM's cinematic presence begs to differ, the very concept the job design team drew from, and even the name of the ability all beg to differ.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The literal entirety of SAM's cinematic presence begs to differ, the very concept the job design team drew from, and even the name of the ability all beg to differ.

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I'm not sure why you would loose that without the cast time. You are still building power in your katana thanks to Sens and Kenki, and then releasing it with Iaijutsu. The cinematic presence would still be there the animation would just play faster like it does with the min cool down ability. (I can't remember Japanese names easily)

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I'm not sure why you would loose that without the cast time. You are still building power in your katana thanks to Sens and Kenki, and then releasing it with Iaijutsu. The cinematic presence would still be there the animation would just play faster like it does with the min cool down ability. (I can't remember Japanese names easily)

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"Cinematic presence" as in every time SAM is present in a cinematic, they spend nearly its entire in-combat screen-time focusing on exactly that, his charged-up, measured quick-draw, which is exactly what Iaijutsu refers to. Iaijutsu itself is focused on quick-draw techniques, when the sword is drawn, slays, and is quickly resheathed thereafter.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think if they removed the cast time on Iaijutsu using Shoha in between your double Midares wouldn't be a problem. Then you wouldn't need extra stacks of Meditation.

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let's not
The required stillness of Iaijutsu is what allows the skill to be this strong too and have no cooldown. Make Samurai able to move freely for it's whole rotation and you take away a part of its complexity. I mean, you take away the good part. Bad part is still tsubame optimization. It gets so important to know how to use this skill properly on some fights that requires heavy movement, removing the cast time would just make the class way too strong imo. It's a bit like dragoon jumps making them die in an aoe. You die if you don't plan properly ahead. Or ninjas using ten chi jin. This just pulls us closer to monk, making us a better monk in fact. And that we don't wanna, seeing how few peoples play monk right now.

Yes they removed the cast time of Tsubame, but that was mostly because two whole GCDs of stillness is not possible for a melee, especially since you can't delay the second one.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

let's not
The required stillness of Iaijutsu is what allows the skill to be this strong too and have no cooldown. Make Samurai able to move freely for it's whole rotation and you take away a part of its complexity. I mean, you take away the good part. Bad part is still tsubame optimization. It gets so important to know how to use this skill properly on some fights that requires heavy movement, removing the cast time would just make the class way too strong imo. It's a bit like dragoon jumps making them die in an aoe. You die if you don't plan properly ahead. Or ninjas using ten chi jin. This just pulls us closer to monk, making us a better monk in fact. And that we don't wanna, seeing how few peoples play monk right now.

Yes they removed the cast time of Tsubame, but that was mostly because two whole GCDs of stillness is not possible for a melee, especially since you can't delay the second one.

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Ehh, once you get used to using Haga (or just go for such insane speeds that when running with BLM and MCH it's not worth using Haga and thereby wasting progress towards a third of a Shoha), Tsubame isn't too bad. I just hate when it fails to queue due to latency and that there's no option to share the key with Iaijutsu itself, since you can never use it except immediately after Iaijutsu anyways.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ehh, once you get used to using Haga (or just go for such insane speeds that when running with BLM and MCH it's not worth using Haga and thereby wasting progress towards a third of a Shoha), Tsubame isn't too bad. I just hate when it fails to queue due to latency and that there's no option to share the key with Iaijutsu itself, since you can never use it except immediately after Iaijutsu anyways.

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I'd be cool with Tsubame if there was a possibility to get it on cooldown without using fillers, who feels for me at least not intended by the devs.
I do agree that Hagakure makes you bypass this issue in a sense, but it makes the rotation too convoluted to make sense to anyone that wants to try to learn to play sam optimally. Every class kinda has a natural feeling to it, a feeling that makes peoples see what they need to do in order to play properly. Sam on the other hand, good luck figuring out what to do with tsubame.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's a combination of instant use Tsubame and change to Hagakure that have caused most of Samurai issues, honestly. I'm not sure why Yoshi thought that Sam was too complicated to play before when removing Hagakure is what lead to the really strict rotations we have now with fillers and the like. Sam was actually easier when you could adapt. Lol.

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Hagakure in SB was in a perfect spot where you could actually ignore it existed outright, giving you a super easy rotation and still pull orange in most content. With that and Seigan giving you an edge, the class was the perfect definition of easy to play but hard to master. It had the little tricks to push a few extra % if you wanted to go further. It was rewarding to play Sam well, but not punishing if you weren't great at it.

Current Sam is indeed more strict and actually more beginner-complex. It's in a great spot dps-wise, but it was more fun in SB and I moved to other classes myself.

I'd say Shoha has been a mess from the start though. Tying it to Meditate was a poor idea and getting "Meditate" stacks from whacking things makes little sense now, it was obvious they just didn't know what to do for the 80 ability. It is strange they reworked Shoha (which could be ignored previously, so wasn't the biggest issue ever), but are stubborn on Tsubame though.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I'd be cool with Tsubame if there was a possibility to get it on cooldown without using fillers, who feels for me at least not intended by the devs.

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I actually like it for that reason more than not, but I get where you're coming from. Personally, I play at such a high speed that I either have to fill 6 or delay by 3, so I typically just end up going for the Midare extra per TG when I have perfect uptime. It makes me wish SkS was a better stat in general, though, so that option would be open to people who care about performing optimally. (I haven't been in that group since I stopped playing with a static. I'll "tryhard", but not to the point that I have to play something dull to me.)

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I do agree that Hagakure makes you bypass this issue in a sense, but it makes the rotation too convoluted to make sense to anyone that wants to try to learn to play sam optimally. Every class kinda has a natural feeling to it, a feeling that makes peoples see what they need to do in order to play properly. Sam on the other hand, good luck figuring out what to do with tsubame.

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And admittedly removing Hagakure for a patch and then making it a trap for yet another patch certainly did learners no favor...