Does anyone know the number difference or have a formula to figure out how much SpS or SkS increase dots by. Checking strickly for smn
Dots and SkS/SpS
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08-21-2019, 09:58 PMUliqDots and SkS/SpS
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08-22-2019, 01:49 AMZerathor
[(Sps-381)/25]*0.001 + 1
I believe will result in the multiplier. No rounding, and values lower than 0.001 don't matter. Might have messed it up. 0.1% gain at 406, and another 0.1% every additional 25 sps.
It's rather insignificant considering the sps smn would want to comfortably be at for double weaves.
There's also a table
http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/speed/ -
08-22-2019, 02:45 AMwereotter
Spell speed will have an impact, but when it comes to needing to weave in your egi assault and other skills between casts, the increase in spell speed doesn't help out when it comes to how much more you'll clip your GCD as a result of this. Additionally the crit ticks on your DOTs will be worth more than the increase in damage you get from higher spell speed.
As far as I'm aware, the only jobs that currently value speed at all are black mage and monk, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. -
08-22-2019, 01:25 PMTryznMonks don’t because we have 4 stacks of GL we only go for 1015 and that’s it, only jobs that want skill speed are tanks and that’s around 1400 give or take a littleQuote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
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08-22-2019, 02:00 PMcactuarzzzzSHB SAM is the job that needed Skill Speed the most, to the point that it is too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryzn
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08-22-2019, 02:16 PMmosaicexHow so?Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
Unless you're going for 2 extra gcds (Hakaze + Yukikaze + Hagakure) per 60 secs rotation (roughly 2700 skill speed) then 922 skill speed is all you need.
There is also 1700 skill speed threshold for 1 extra gcd rotation (Enpi) but I found that to be very clunky to do sometimes. -
08-22-2019, 04:17 PMShurrikhanThis. We have significantly fewer viable SkS breakpoints than when Hagakure was truly a thing. Makes one wish we could get it back as a nearly potency-neutral 15 Kenki per Sen.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 10:06 PMcactuarzzzz914 [2.44] and you will find it hard to keep buff on with aoe in big pull. You might also find it hard to Midare in the right time on salvage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 10:26 PMmosaicexNot at all? Both Oka and Mangetsu refresh your haste and damage buffQuote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
Also how is 914 skill speed be considered 'too much'?
No to this too. Can you actually give some example?Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
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08-22-2019, 10:35 PMcactuarzzzzNot refresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 10:40 PMmosaicexExtends by 15 seconds then. You only need 10.5 seconds to complete whole aoe rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
So what exactly is the problem? -
08-22-2019, 10:45 PMcactuarzzzzI shoudl leave the thinking to you. Seem like you need to re do your math or maybe run the lv 80 dungeon with 914 sks and doing salvage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 10:53 PMmosaicexI do run those plenty of times already. Though in case you actually need my help calculating the duration for you, here we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
Fuga (2.12) + Oka (2.12) + Fuga (2.12) + Mangetsu (2.12) + Tenka Goken (2.12) = 10.6 seconds, even shorter if you have Meikyo Shisui available.
Now can you actually make your point? -
08-22-2019, 10:56 PMCetonis
Just to return to the original question, the short answer is that SkS/SpS buffs DoT and auto attack damage at the same rate that an equivalent amount of Det would.
It's a common misconception that a job like SMN or BRD having big DoTs means speed might be good for them. That's not really the case though, it's more like DoTs and autos are exempted when comparing SkS to Det, so if for some jobs those were its main sources of non GCD based damage, speed gets to have a chance to compete.
It still often doesn't though, because for instance Bard still sees some third or so of its damage completely unimpacted by SkS, and I would venture to guess that SMN is similarly unenthused, with its trances and aetherflow and egi assaults being on flat cooldowns. -
08-22-2019, 10:58 PMcactuarzzzzAnd still mistook a refresh for 15 seconds and proclaim it with confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 10:59 PMmosaicexOh, so this is where we are at now? You win, you win, mr. Expert roulette hero.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
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08-22-2019, 11:05 PMcactuarzzzzInstead of accept the truth you kept push forward to save your pride despite your theory collapsed. Why did people who like to bring math and theory tend to behave like this? You know what, between us I'm the one who thinking about what's real and what's not while you're worrying about "win".Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-22-2019, 11:08 PMmosaicexYou're the one who was hung up about me misusing the word 'refresh', yet you yourself can't even spell the word 'savage'.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
Now you're just being hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
I could even bring up the fact that you probably haven't even set foot in current savage yet still acted like know-it-all.
But I'm not petty enough for that. -
08-22-2019, 11:19 PMcactuarzzzz*clap* *clap* start attack me with the misspelling now aren't you? when it is the only thing you have, any minor error is as good as any for you to use to make a comeback.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
And now you aren't smart as you like to believe you are. You've fallen from someone who's backing up by math and theory to someone who start insulting when he's losing credibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
*Do you know what really make it hilarious? a SAM who run plenty of lv.80 dungeons and savage while believing oka & mangetsu refresh his buff all this time* -
08-22-2019, 11:57 PMcactuarzzzzMe not know it all doesn't help you kept your math and theory from collapsed. And I cleared some of the savage with other character using only PF so... you claim to know the "fact?".Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
You claim you aren't petty enough but you attacked me with the misspelling? ahahahaha.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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08-23-2019, 08:37 AMVendalwindThats not how adults argue dude. You want to make a claim you prove it. you dont get to make a claim and then leave the work of proving it to your opponent/ That literally is how most idiotic discussions in this world begin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
If you make a claim, prove it, link things, say things, math things yourself.
Even if your opponent is wrong.
Also ad hominem plea(s) citing your own savage clears is both petty and pointless.
On subject, thinking about break points for skill speed and specific rotations is very much a form of proper optimization, and many classes do it. Note this segment from the balance:
"Q: Why is looping important?
A: In order to minimise personal ability cooldown drift and maintain perfect alignment with raid buffs on intervals of 60/120/180 seconds it is important that our rotation allows us to use our 2 least flexible abilities - Meikyo Shisui and Tsubame: Gaeshi - as soon as they are available. Since Tsubame is on a 60 second cooldown we need to target a specific GCD tier to achieve a clean GCD cycle that comes as close to 60 seconds in length as possible.
Refer to http://bit.ly/Compendium-Loop for in-depth explanation.
For comparative purposes we always assume Y/G/K Meikyo and G/K Bana.
Viable SkS tiers for looping:
2.13 ( 28 GCD Loop ) - 812 SkS - requires 1 filler GCD
2.06 ( 29 GCD Loop ) - 1,624 SkS - requires 2 filler GCDs
1.99 ( 30 GCD Loop ) - 2,437 SkS - requires 3 filler GCDs
1.92 ( 31 GCD Loop ) - 3,249 SkS - requires 4 filler GCDs
1.86 ( 32 GCD Loop ) - 3,960 SkS - requires 5 filler GCDs
(Taking human error and server network into account allows for the slightly faster tier, e.g. 2.05, to be as viable as 2.06. Applicable to all listed tiers)
Filler Options:
1a) double-Yuki Meikyo - equals 1 filler GCD
1b) non-Yuki Meikyo - equals 1 negative filler GCD
2) Yuki-Bana - equals 1 negative filler GCD
3) Yatenpi - equals 1 filler GCD
4) Yuki-kure - equals 2 filler GCDs
5) Gekko-/Kasha-kure - equals 3 filler GCDs"
Oh look i cited a source where comprehensive math was done.
Additionally SAM is absolutely by no means the only class that cares about SkS/SpS.
BLM massively so, MNK still loves SkS with for the most part only ever single weaving, and they have to also try to hit specific tiers to enable ceratin optimised rotations such as the double true rotation. Even DRG do a bit. The highest potential dps SCH build right now is even SpS focused.
BRD and NIN care about keeping it low in current iteration.
Being belligerent and providing one word answers with obtuse statements that are not backed up by any source or calculation at all literally helps no one. -
08-23-2019, 12:11 PMShurrikhanThat's not a mistake; it's conventional nomenclature.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
When something increases the duration of a buff when and only when the buff is present, it is typically called a "refresh". You're thinking of the term "reset".
You cannot refresh a buff that is not already present. That is the difference between a strike which "buffs" and a strike which "refreshes". -
08-23-2019, 04:10 PMcactuarzzzzQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
Refresh would be 40 seconds. Other Game used this word before. Even mosaicex already changed the word to "Extend". but Nice Try. -
08-23-2019, 04:15 PMcactuarzzzzQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
YES, THAT'S NOT HOW ADULTS ARGUE.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
1.He's the one who start insulting when he lose credibility.
If Scientist provide a false thoery does that mean the job to correct it fall to everyone else? nope.
What you should do when that happen : Make a small apology when you spread the wrong info that you claim people should believe it. then you can start expecting civil conversation from me but if you ignore that/start insult me then you can forget about it.
DON'T TALK TO ME IF YOU DON'T AT LEAST HAVE IT IN YOU OR IF YOU FEEL WIN IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PRESENT WHAT'S REAL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
I told him to re do savage because He need new testing so he can have the data from the real thing instead of the number that pop up in his head. And I like how you try to sound reasonable when you don't touch the fact that he use savage clear to insult me [when he doesn't even knew my real character]Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
I didn't talk about Spell Speed I said SAM needed Skill Speed the most and it mean among dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-23-2019, 06:46 PMUmsche
So... how much skill speed does a samouraï need in the end and why ?
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08-23-2019, 08:05 PMVendalwind...just saying you absolutely started shutting her down without explanation or justification, or math or logic or anything a good 5 posts before she insulted you. If you can't see how you started this wellllllll... RIPQuote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
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08-23-2019, 09:33 PMcactuarzzzzClaiming it isn't how adults argue> Leave the one who start insulting out> Skip all that>Make a new post to make it look justified for someone who start using insulting and don't argue like adult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
RIP. -
08-23-2019, 10:56 PMUmscheYou still haven't given any example for why SAM needs more skill speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
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08-24-2019, 05:36 AMcactuarzzzzI did, only for you to ignore it. If only you ever read. btw, did I promise you at some point that I would give anything to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Umsche
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08-24-2019, 06:11 AMUmscheYou said SAM needed skillspeed for AoE, someone provided some calculated as to why it was not needed, I don't know SAM, but I'm curious if it is really needed or not, can you help me understand your point ?Quote:
Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz
EDIT : from what I got by rereading your first messages, you said SAM needed way too much Skillspeed, but then saying it needed 914, with the lvl 80 stuff, I don't find this to be very high. -
08-24-2019, 06:47 AMcactuarzzzzIt isn't what I say we neeededQuote:
Originally Posted by Umsche
Mosai said it is 922 but last I check 914 is the threashold for 2.44 gcd.
and it isn't only for aoe.
btw I grew tired of these talk that make me repeat what I say over and over. Sorry, but I'm gonna drop it now. Don't feel like I would ever get anything from this. -
08-24-2019, 11:59 AMxxvaynxxLeviathan.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
If you're too slow, you can't midare before he does the second malstorm.
You can also get and extra gcd before he does malstorm for both which is a DPS gain.
You comfortably apply your nana before the puddle drops on you as well to get another gcd.
You can also fit the midare before he drops puddles just before tsu 2, and that's the midare under a pot. -
08-24-2019, 12:09 PMxxvaynxxQuoted the wrong person. Lol on mobile.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
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08-24-2019, 12:28 PMmosaicexThis is more likely uptime problem than skill speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
Same as above. Higher skill speed will make getting extra shifu easier but that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
I usually Higanbana after the puddles drop to minimize dot clippingQuote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
I don't pot at that moment but I can still midare just fine before the puddles drop just before underseaquake finished casting.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
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08-24-2019, 12:39 PMxxvaynxx1. No, it's sks. But could be clipping somewhere as well. Because sometimes I'm ahead in gcd, other times I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
2. I do it after puddles drop as well but it's better to do it before if you can to gain more gcd, which is possible with more sks to do it more comfortably.
3. You should pot there. It's when your ST guren is up :o which is the stronger part of your reopener.
Gonna assume you do it after second mal? -
08-24-2019, 01:10 PMmosaicex1. I'm sure it's not. Maybe we're doing stuff in different order but I'll upload a clip later to show you that you can comfortably midare before second maelstromQuote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
3. I pot a bit after Stormy Horizon, after both Temporary Current, it catches pre-Higan Midare, Higanbana, Senei, and 2x Midare after.
Edit: Here it is, https://streamable.com/yxolp
As for whether you're ahead in CD or not, I think this is more of an encounter thing, kinda like fast/slow enrage in E4S. I noticed this happened to me sometimes too. -
08-24-2019, 02:33 PMxxvaynxxHmm Odd. Not sure how you got to that point of the rotation so quickly. Where you did your bana, I normally doing it as the puddles is about to drop. (not the aoe in the middle)Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
if I had to guess, maybe you're closer to him after malstorm 1 or something.
*Edit*
Oh you know what it is, I think I'm doing double yuki more than you are. I took a peek at your logs and I did 47 yuki and you only did 40.
its because you're slower than I am so you're able to just flow through your rotation.
HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO PLAY THAT SLOW SAM, its painful XD -
08-24-2019, 02:42 PMmosaicexWell, that's kinda my point. You can do just fine with 28 GCDs rotation, you can do just fine with 30 GCDs rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
In fact, I'm sure the 30 GCDs rotation is the reason why 5.05 Hagakure is so weak, because otherwise it'd just be outright better than 28 GCDs one due to extra GCDs and even more Kenki.
It's a matter of taste at this point. I chose to go with 28 because it's easier to gear up for me. -
08-24-2019, 02:50 PMxxvaynxxYou you proven me wrong in that case. Though I think being faster is still stronger than being slower imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
Comparing our logs I did more dps than you and I don't have my 475 wep yet, though I did clear it about 10secs faster. -
08-24-2019, 02:54 PMxxvaynxxYeah you proven me wrong in that case. Though I think being faster is still stronger than being slower imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
Comparing our logs I did more dps than you and I don't have my 475 wep yet, though not by much.
Its most likely me DH'ing more and stuff, you got a orange so at that point its mostly just lucky crts and DH.