Paladin TP issues should be adressed

Could a method of restoring TP for Paladin be implemented?

Warrior already has one that can be used very easily, and Dark Knight doesn't always use TP (they can use MP draining moves like Unmend, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain, Unleash) and other abilities use no TP at all (Low Blow, Reprisal, Plunge, Carve and Spit).

Paladin lacks any way of sustaining their own TP outside of standing still and doing nothing or using Clemency. Maybe a possible solution would be to make Sheltron restore TP similar to Equilibrium but only if you're in Sword Oath? Or make each Shield Swipe restore TP.

i still find it funny i run out of TP so quickly and then look at the other DPS/tanks and i'm like welp... not gonna ask for a brd to sing for just me... *plays with thumb*

Not a Paladin main, but when I recently went through the anima quest to get the Awoken gear for it, I noticed how bad my TP was nose-diving. I miss the old Shield Swipe now.

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Originally Posted by Rhode

Could a method of restoring TP for Paladin be implemented?

Warrior already has one that can be used very easily, and Dark Knight doesn't always use TP (they can use MP draining moves like Unmend, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain, Unleash) and other abilities use no TP at all (Low Blow, Reprisal, Plunge, Carve and Spit).

Paladin lacks any way of sustaining their own TP outside of standing still and doing nothing or using Clemency. Maybe a possible solution would be to make Sheltron restore TP similar to Equilibrium but only if you're in Sword Oath? Or make each Shield Swipe restore TP.

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Wait and hope they fix the problems with paladin in the next patch. At the moment, I don't know what a paladin is. Only tanks are Dark Knight and Warrior.

Paladin? Pah-lah-deen? Plate? Dinner? Chicken? Fried chicken?

Are you talking about fried chicken?

This word is foreign to XIV players. Please explain?

One thing that really struck me when farming A4 as an AST or MCH was how fast a PLD runs out of TP when main tanking. Fights with no downtime seem to be really brutal on them.
It's not great with a DRK, either, and I really have to wonder why WAR is the only tank that got a TP recovery ability, albeit one that requires you to be out of tank stance.

You don't even need to be in Deliverance to recover TP as WAR. Something that people never keep in mind is that WARs recover TP every time they use one of their on GCD 0 TP abilities like Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone...Not only that, but if you use berserk there's that 5 second (or 2.5 second if you time it right) pacification where you can't do anything but recover TP. I was just testing my rotation in Defiance before I saw this thread and i was at 4:17 before I got bored and left the dummy, still had about 300 TP to spare, and it was with liberal usage of Fracture.

In actual encounters with downtime you're literally never going to run out unless it involves lots of aoe. WAR has 0 TP problems even outside of Deliverance and it's pretty ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

It's not great with a DRK, either.

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I'm too busy spazzing with MP to even remember I have TP. Didn't even realise DRK might run out of TP in a long single-target fight. But makes sense. o.ô

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

One thing that really struck me when farming A4 as an AST or MCH was how fast a PLD runs out of TP when main tanking. Fights with no downtime seem to be really brutal on them.
It's not great with a DRK, either, and I really have to wonder why WAR is the only tank that got a TP recovery ability, albeit one that requires you to be out of tank stance.

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I think the dev team seriously overestimated the amount of spellcasting Paladins (and Dark Knights) would be doing. Every 3 seconds spent casting a spell is 60 TP recovered. If they thought Paladins would be casting Stoneskin fairly often (say as part of a GB -> RA -> RA/RoH -> SS rotation) then they probably thought Paladin and Warrior would have a similar TP consumption rates.

I'm just personally confused as to how SE wants us to play Paladin, in contrast to how Paladin is currently being played by most of us.

Putting aside our subpar damage output in comparison to our fellow War and Drk, our TP issues is just a kick in the balls I think. But it gets worse. You know Skill Speed? SE put 73 points of SS on Almace, our anima relic weapon. If you weren't running out of TP before, you sure as hell will now. In the meantime War and Drk are running around with Det and Crit already built into their anima relics. Making their superior damage compared to ours even better. Why SE? Why do you hate Paladin so much?

This grinds my corn.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Putting aside our subpar damage output in comparison to our fellow War and Drk, our TP issues is just a kick in the balls I think. But it gets worse. You know Skill Speed? SE put 73 points of SS on Almace, our anima relic weapon. If you weren't running out of TP before, you sure as hell will now. In the meantime War and Drk are running around with Det and Crit already built into their anima relics. Making their superior damage compared to ours even better. Why SE? Why do you hate Paladin so much?

This grinds my corn.

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Go get a Gordian weapon if you want crit/det. You can't expect SE to duplicate stats on same ilvl weapons.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Go get a Gordian weapon if you want crit/det. You can't expect SE to duplicate stats on same ilvl weapons.

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Sure, that's what most will do I have no doubt. But this is the relic we're talking about, the weapon you spend a shit ton of time on. Shouldn't it be, oh I don't know... worth it?

On topic though, the tp issues we get in long fights currently definitely needs a fix. Anything that could give us a slight tp boon would work. But ah well, I'll hold my breath until the next major patch update.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Sure, that's what most will do I have no doubt. But this is the relic we're talking about, the weapon you spend a shit ton of time on. Shouldn't it be, oh I don't know... worth it?

On topic though, the tp issues we get in long fights currently definitely needs a fix. Anything that could give us a slight tp boon would work. But ah well, I'll hold my breath until the next major patch update.

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the relic is simply another option. besides 77 ss wont kill your tp that doesnt even reduce you gcd by .01 seconds

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Why SE? Why do you hate Paladin so much?

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I want to think that SE just doesn't realise how people are actually playing paladin. I feel like they think paladins will make more use out of their MP, but in reality, they really can't. Content with strict DPS checks don't allow for tanks to hold back at all, so casting anything during any form of uptime is just hurting the group. There has to be just some kind of discrepancy. hold off till the next patch, because I see the tank meta being re-worked through melds and stats and such. Something is gonna change soon.

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Originally Posted by VaddixKrieg

the relic is simply another option. besides 77 ss wont kill your tp that doesnt even reduce you gcd by .01 seconds

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But it does. Longer fights are especially strenuous on a Paladin's tp, and anyone playing Paladin can relate to this.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Content with strict DPS checks don't allow for tanks to hold back at all, so casting anything during any form of uptime is just hurting the group.

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Yeah I hear you. In a metagame that is currently so focused on damage, the fact that we have stop and spend some mp as our tp comes back doesn't help our already subpar damage. It will definitely be exciting to see what changes SE makes in the coming month.

yea the tp cost on pld is bad after 4min in a fight im down in tp! Use mp for just flash that dosent do anything at all on bosses. And our additional skills are shit i wouldent cry if we had atlest invigorate or something and would been nice to have an extra ogcd

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I think the dev team seriously overestimated the amount of spellcasting Paladins (and Dark Knights) would be doing. Every 3 seconds spent casting a spell is 60 TP recovered. If they thought Paladins would be casting Stoneskin fairly often (say as part of a GB -> RA -> RA/RoH -> SS rotation) then they probably thought Paladin and Warrior would have a similar TP consumption rates.

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That would be fine, only it is actively discouraged by HW end-game.

Clemency's cast time (and the possibility of interrupts) limits it's use to Tank Busters, AoE's, or general pauses in the fight where the boss becomes un-target-able (which makes no diff to Tp, since you're no longer attacking anyway). So even if you are using Clemency liberally and skillfully you're not replenishing all that much Tp on the whole. Using Clemency or Stone Skin during a mob pull is enmity suicide, because Pld's have the lowest enmity gen out of all the Tanks. 3 seconds casting is 3 seconds in which you stand to lose hate on something a gun happy Smn is attacking.

Now, for the most part (100% up-time fights aside) it is possible to use Clemency and Stone Skin to the effect of keeping a decent amount of Tp (not nearly as much as War or Drk, but enough to function); however, if you do use those skills you are openly criticized for it by both the game mechanics and your party members. Dps checks were so steep in end-game that any Pld who dared to cast a Stone Skin or Clemency were crucified for lowering the parties Dps. Pld's already have the lowest Dps of all 3, so they were first on the chopping block when Dps checks hit the ceiling. Going extra Tanky by using SS or Clem meant being immediately replaced with a War or Drk.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

But this is the relic we're talking about, the weapon you spend a shit ton of time on.

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Gordian weapon probably takes more time on average, honestly. If you consider the 7 others involved in getting it then it definitely does. Really, the only problem is that all the relics aren't statted like Almace. Anyway, a little bit of speed isn't going to make any significant difference in paladin's TP expenditure. Paladin is just broken.


Actually it's not really paladin that's broken, since dark knight actually runs out of TP too. It's just that warrior has it way too easy on TP.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Gordian weapon probably takes more time on average, honestly. If you consider the 7 others involved in getting it then it definitely does. Really, the only problem is that all the relics aren't statted like Almace. Anyway, a little bit of speed isn't going to make any significant difference in paladin's TP expenditure. Paladin is just broken.

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For now maybe, but the relic questline is constantly expanding. Keep that in mind.

And Dark Knight at least gets its Blood Weapon, so it has some form of tp management when used frequently. Wouldn't mind it if Paladin got a similar skill like that actually, I think that could help a lot.

generally when I run out of tp I'll just stoneskin myself or others, maybe throw out a clemency and soon enough I'll have enough tp to keep me going for a while.

My main issue is when we are raised, we come back with 0 tp and 0mp making it very hard to get back into the fight quickly. A dps can invigorate, a war can equilibrium, a drk can carve and spit etc. everyone has some form of ability that lets them generate a little bit of resources to get them back in the fight, except PLD. We have no tp to attack, no mp to flash, we can provoke but with no resources there's no way to hold hate after we take it.

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Originally Posted by Februs

That would be fine, only it is actively discouraged by HW end-game.

Clemency's cast time (and the possibility of interrupts) limits it's use to Tank Busters, AoE's, or general pauses in the fight where the boss becomes un-target-able (which makes no diff to Tp, since you're no longer attacking anyway). So even if you are using Clemency liberally and skillfully you're not replenishing all that much Tp on the whole. Using Clemency or Stone Skin during a mob pull is enmity suicide, because Pld's have the lowest enmity gen out of all the Tanks. 3 seconds casting is 3 seconds in which you stand to lose hate on something a gun happy Smn is attacking.

Now, for the most part (100% up-time fights aside) it is possible to use Clemency and Stone Skin to the effect of keeping a decent amount of Tp (not nearly as much as War or Drk, but enough to function); however, if you do use those skills you are openly criticized for it by both the game mechanics and your party members. Dps checks were so steep in end-game that any Pld who dared to cast a Stone Skin or Clemency were crucified for lowering the parties Dps. Pld's already have the lowest Dps of all 3, so they were first on the chopping block when Dps checks hit the ceiling. Going extra Tanky by using SS or Clem meant being immediately replaced with a War or Drk.

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Yep. So many problems seem to stem from player and the dev team's perspectives on what is important not aligning.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

And Dark Knight at least gets its Blood Weapon, so it has some form of tp management when used frequently. Wouldn't mind it if Paladin got a similar skill like that actually, I think that could help a lot.

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Blood Weapon was originally a DpS cooldown which inadvertently increased TP consumption. The 20% decrease in TP costs was added to prevent it from being a TP drain. The math is slightly off and it ended up being a TP gain at low skillspeed levels when the buff was applied.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Yep. So many problems seem to stem from player and the dev team's perspectives on what is important not aligning.

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Definitely. Once they've made something and given it to the world it's hard to anticipate what the world will do with it ... That being said, I think that this is also a case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. Consider:

-They gave Pld's casting tools, but they did not adjust Pld enmity to account for the cast time.

-They gave them a high skill speed, but Clemency scales off of spell speed.

- Hypothetically, a high skill speed could compensate for a low threat gen if Pld's could use their enmity combo faster than the other two tanks ...

- BUT, at the same time, if they did have enough skill speed to compensate for their low threat gen, they'd burn through Tp faster and have to resort to casting.

- Faster speed = Increased Tp consumption. Increased Tp consumption = Increased casting to compensate. Increased casting = Decreased enmity and decreased dps ... which defies the point of having that skill speed.

No matter how you slice it, it doesn't make sense that Pld was designed this way, and these aren't the only problems. There's a lot of things about the Pld kit that are counter-intuitive (not being able to self-buff with Divine Veil by casting Clemency, for example), and that's before they are even put into practice. High Dps checks seen in end-game pretty much write off all of Pld's casting. So, even if the developers who put together the Pld kit thought that casting would be a Pld's means of Tp conservation, the dungeon development team obviously did not get the memo, because they made that impossible with the way they designed the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Februs

So, even if the developers who put together the Pld kit thought that casting would be a Pld's means of Tp conservation, the dungeon development team obviously did not get the memo, because they made that impossible with the way they designed the dungeons.

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Your words are like song to my ears. I couldn't have said it any better.

I've never seen so many people complain so much in my entire life of video games. Like umm the best defensive tanks in the game and yall crying about emnity, damage, tp, blah blah blah. So far leveling my pld with my cousin and I'm able to keep aggro more with my lower lvl pld then I do DRK....TP issues hmmm unlike the other tanks you do have fewer GCD. Still PLD remains the easiest to play and boy hollow grounds.......probably the best tanking move I've seen in my tank life. I'm sorry I agree with SE on this. You can't have the lowest skill tank with the highest defense cd with the fastest attack speed........now yall want higher attack damage and tp control. Smh and that still won't be enough for yall.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Smh and that still won't be enough for yall.

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Hmm. You're kind of missing the point. We're talking about the Paladin's tp issues, not enmity.

In the current endgame meta War and Drk tanks are favoured over Pld tanks. War especially, as they're in a very good spot right now. That job functions incredibly well at the moment. However I do agree that Pld remains the easiest tank job to play. But I don't think you should see this topic in such a negative light, no one here is complaining. Now if Pld's damage output remained as is, I wouldn't have any qualms with it. If Yoshi wants us to remain true to the good ol' "Meat shield" role, that's fine. I just personally think that Pld could stand to gain some form of method to at least slightly manage its tp. Because as already mentioned, fights with 100% uptime will deplete your tp and utterly choke your damage output.

Hmm maybe I am looking at it in a negative light at the same time they bring alot to the table just not offensively tp and damage would be that offensive they don't bring. Only enough which you have to agree with. Of course WAR is sitting pretty it's pretty much the best OT. Been that way since 2.0 from what I read and the content I played. But the yells for PLD is dps and tp management. I heard it was waaaay worse then this, they got fixed apparently not enough. If those two issues are fixed with the defensive stacks pld have why would DRK matters? WARS always going to be the best ot due to eye and path combos unless the other two comes up with something more accessible it won't change.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Of course WAR is sitting pretty it's pretty much the best OT. Been that way since 2.0 from what I read and the content I played.

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I actually have mixed views regarding this, and have been looking at a reddit article you might find interesting.

- https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...din_is_a_much/

Although this is off-topic, feel free to give it a read. =)

@reckless
PLD does not have a significant advantage over any other tank defensively. EVERY single tank has the defensive cd's to MT any content in the game. PLD has a slim advantage on physical damage encounters, but any DRK or WAR worth their salt can handle themselves just fine in a physical encounter. PLD brings to the table, disjointed and situational utility, the worst damage output and the fastest TP floor. Too many important disadvantages to the class, when compared to WAR which has no disadvantages or DRK which has a significantly better balance between its strengths and weaknesses.

@torunya
interesting read, but TBH, they aren't comparing all 3 classes and it is too focused on looking at things from just that classes "bubble". In 2.x War as MT, PLD as OT was the harder hitting combo. For 3.0, DRK gets the opportunity to utilize its hardest hitting combos more frequently thanks to getting punched in the face, which is what pushes them to the top

TP adjustments would be nice. I'd even accept it if they added it to some other mostly useless skill like tempered will. (mini invigorate or something)
- "Tempered Will" - Prevents knockbacks, mostly (Thordan EX.... why) removes heavy (but not when you are mounted) and gives you 200 TP.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

@reckless
PLD does not have a significant advantage over any other tank defensively. EVERY single tank has the defensive cd's to MT any content in the game. PLD has a slim advantage on physical damage encounters, but any DRK or WAR worth their salt can handle themselves just fine in a physical encounter.

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I agree at the same time it's not always the case. Ravana EX showed me otherwise. If you fight Ravana with the average gear accepted final liberation with it stacks will slaughter warrior. On top of keeping path up you have to plan accordingly for inner beast while shield oath and grit remains defending 20% throughout. PLD still have Sentinel which is better also, awareness which of course better due to upgrade for pld. And the cross skill they get. On top of the easiest tanks to play. You have to take everything into consideration instead of only comparing.

That's ravana ex. The fights where the pld's issues are apparent are fights like A3 Savage and and A4 Savage where u need to pump out as much dps as possible to the point to where the paladin's playstyle goes against this. It took plds 3-4 weeks to clear A4S after all the other groups because of the huge tp strain and in A4 savage esepcially if you're doing the strategy of letting the starf doll steal everyone's mp which means bards and mch can't play their songs and plds can't use their spells. Also in a bunch of videos I've seen the plds are only in shield oath for like 30 seconds before dropping it for the rest of the fight.

However, they have plans to make changes to the raid meta in patch 3.2 and if these changes are benefical to the paladin then only slight changes to the pld's toolkit is needed.

We need tp for paladin. Also we need the Hammer Din, Zeal Cold Din and the Smiter Din.

Dat diablo reference though.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

PLD still have Sentinel which is better also, awareness which of course better due to upgrade for pld. And the cross skill they get. On top of the easiest tanks to play. You have to take everything into consideration instead of only comparing.

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Sentinel is worse than Vengeance. Vengeance lasts longer and is on a shorter cooldown, throughout an encounter that one cooldown will mitigate more damage than both Sentinel and Shadow Wall.

There's obviously more to it than that, but when you want to make PLD "the most defensive tank" you'd think that would show outside of Hallowed Ground. That, and, the concept of "most defensive tank" is really stupid and bad design in my opinion. Let's relegate one tank to the MT role and give the other two tanks MT toolkits that they never get to use because fuck it.

Ideally they should all be able to do both the MT and OT role equally well, but each one specializing in something different. Something different that's not "this tank mitigate ____ damage better than others" because it just pigeonholes them again. WAR gets to mitigate both physical and magical damage very well, but DRK and PLD have to pick one? Fuuuuuuuuuuck that.

The fact you you're stacking a buff on top of defensive buff automatically makes it better. Which goes back to my saying PLD is easier to play.I'm not about to explain all of this the math is right in front you. Reason why the pld is shun right due to how content needs dps rather then tools that consists of survival. WAR sits best because of their self heals if they survive tank busters. Ravana EX exposes war and if there are more fights like that there will be a different tune singing. Anyhow I don't agree with the whole all tanks should do the same if that's the case SE shouldn't let us switch classes if that's the case kill all classes and make one per job see how much fun it is. Every dps dps differently and not all the same so why shouuld tanks? PLD are not as bad when content calls for defense they will be here saving lives.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

The fact you you're stacking a buff on top of defensive buff automatically makes it better. Which goes back to my saying PLD is easier to play.I'm not about to explain all of this the math is right in front you. Reason why the pld is shun right due to how content needs dps rather then tools that consists of survival. WAR sits best because of their self heals if they survive tank busters. Ravana EX exposes war and if there are more fights like that there will be a different tune singing. Anyhow I don't agree with the whole all tanks should do the same if that's the case SE shouldn't let us switch classes if that's the case kill all classes and make one per job see how much fun it is. Every dps dps differently and not all the same so why shouuld tanks? PLD are not as bad when content calls for defense they will be here saving lives.

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You really don't know how WAR's tanking skills work, which is weird considering you apparently have it at 60. Defiance is almost identical to Shield Oath. A WAR with Defiance+IB will mitigate the same amount of damage as a PLD with Shield Oath+Rampart. WAR should have IB for every single tankbuster, on top of one of Vengeance, Thrill/Convalescence or Raw Intuition (90-120s cds). In almost every fight, WAR can consistently mitigate more damage and more frequently.

Bruh should I even explain how wrong you are?

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Bruh should I even explain how wrong you are?

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well....... YES

It has been well documented that Defiance grants the same amount of eHP as shield oath (and grit). Innerbeast mitigates 20%, as does Rampart (and shadowskin). With exception to that fact that you can Innerbeast on a more frequent basis that you can Rampart, the effect for mitigating using these combos respectively, is practically the same.

This is common knowledge, and easily found by looking at the tool tips. I am quoting here (different thread in regard to awareness) as it was simply easier than writing it up myself.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

snip....

-PLD-------/WAR-------/DRK
-Rampart/Inner Beast/Shadowskin
-Sentinel/Vengeance/Shadow Wall
-Bulwark/Raw Intuition/Dark Dance
-Sheltron/Thrill of Battle/Dark Mind
-Hallowed Ground/Holmgang/Living Dead
-Foresight/Foresight/Foresight
-Convalescence/Convalescence/Convalescence
-Bloodbath/Bloodbath/Bloodbath
-Awareness/Awareness/?????????

If you don't take Awareness on DRK, you have less cooldowns than the other tanks. This preys on my sense of OCD, personally. Awareness also synergizes very well with almost any native cooldown DRK has. If you feel that you need to bring Mercy Stroke to help with a DPS check, by all means knock yourself out. Just remember, its like a 13.3 potency oGCD on a 30 second recast. Either way, its not a huge difference.

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All of these defensive cooldowns are roughly the same with only variances on timers (sentinel potency is higher but much longer recast, some odds and ends with the blocks/parry’s).

You claim WAR was weak in RavEx, but it isn’t. It’s only significant weakness in that fight is the fact that you can’t CHEEZE the double pray mechanic because Holmgang requires a target, where Hallowed/L.Dead do not.

Due to PLD’s terrible enmity generation, if the front shield was first, a PLD MT would have to spam flash in order to keep hate from going to a DD. DRK has magic and WAR has a stronger enmity burst with the BB combo.

If you are claiming that a WAR in defiance is not the same as ShO, feel free to peruse some of the 2.x threads. General perception was WARs were squishy, and Healers had threads complaining on how much “harder” it was to heal them, and that perception was dead wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/qHL1B1X.png

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Innerbeast mitigates 20%, as does Rampart (and shadowskin). With exception to that fact that you can Innerbeast on a more frequent basis that you can Rampart, the effect for mitigating using these combos respectively, is practically the same.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

General perception was WARs were squishy, and Healers had threads complaining on how much “harder” it was to heal them, and that perception was dead wrong.

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In all aspects to talk about, WAR has a high starting ceiling that remains high through min/max. People claiming WAR is squishy is mostly due the illusion of how much more WAR takes (no free 20% dmg reduction from stance) and how 'short' Inner Beast is. However it is also true that with Deliverance being the meta, WAR needs to be really good at planning CDs well to push DPS. Which comes back to the topic of a bad WAR being very "squishy" because the job needs to be played at a much higher level of skills.