Take away the MP cost on our attacks

No giant text of ranting. Its absurd. Take it away.

It adds an element of strategy and prevents the straight up spamming of attacks. I like it and think it should stay.

Unless the attack is magic based, like pugilist using a fire pawnch, then it shouldn't cost mp.

I dont mind the mp cost, but it seems obsurd that pugilist which appears to use the most mp out of all the DoW abilities has the smallest mp pool

Personally i was shocked a when they released 1.18, but i have got used to the MP costs and managment now and i like it. i actually need to think now, not just standing there spamming cure

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Originally Posted by Jibe

It adds an element of strategy and prevents the straight up spamming of attacks. I like it and think it should stay.

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I. . . how would you even spam something that has a 30 second cooldown? Is it really spamming at that point? Besides, the MP cost adds nothing. It's so small as to be negligible unless you're using your MP for something else, anyway. At this point, I oppose the MP cost simply because it's uneven compared to the abilities of the other classes. Although, I can kinda see the reasoning on Light Strike (the buff), but not for Pummel.

Tanking the Ogre NM I found my MP sinking overly fast instantly taking away my ability for light heals onto myself and directly affecting my ability to use my punching skills - one of which is suppose to give me an evasion "boost". In a long fight you are guaranteed to lose 2 of your attacks sooner or later.

Whatever way you want to cut it its silly.

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Originally Posted by Jibe

It adds an element of strategy and prevents the straight up spamming of attacks. I like it and think it should stay.

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If there was some type of extra reward or benefit for careful strategizing, and getting various outside skills to get mp, it might make sense, but there isnt, no one else has these limiters and their skills are just as powerful, some are even the same. Its totally illogical. i said it before, but wtf not even mages basic attacks use mp. lancer has pummel already. other jobs dont pay for their basic job mechanic skills, there is no reason we should.

it really makes no sense in context of the rest of the game, in any respect.

PUG tank should stack VIT>MND>DEX then?

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Tanking the Ogre NM I found my MP sinking overly fast instantly taking away my ability for light heals onto myself and directly affecting my ability to use my punching skills - one of which is suppose to give me an evasion "boost". In a long fight you are guaranteed to lose 2 of your attacks sooner or later.

Whatever way you want to cut it its silly.

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This is why I leave the healing to the healers. Well, that and I'm an *******, I guess :p

Anyway, with the full party buff, I have 480 MP. That's enough to use both abilities 16 times each, or 8 minutes worth of use as soon as they come off cooldown. Every Cure II would take away over a minute of that, which is why I refuse to do more than Second Wind myself.

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

I dont mind the mp cost, but it seems obsurd that pugilist which appears to use the most mp out of all the DoW abilities has the smallest mp pool

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What do you have to support this ????

What I have to refute this is a copy/paste of a dev post post :

"Mind (MND)
Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
Increases maximum MP
Healing effectiveness
(For Disciples of War 1 mind = 2-3 MP. For Disciples of magic, 1 mind = 9-10 MP)"

At no point have I seen any information to suppot the fact that once DoW class get more MP over another.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

What do you have to support this ????

What I have to refute this is a copy/paste of a dev post post :

"Mind (MND)
Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
Increases maximum MP
Healing effectiveness
(For Disciples of War 1 mind = 2-3 MP. For Disciples of magic, 1 mind = 9-10 MP)"

At no point have I seen any information to suppot the fact that once DoW class get more MP over another.

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where does that post come from? is it from after 1.18?

yeah i logged in and checked, and your wrong,
48 pug 392 mp
35 lnc 419 mp
34 marauder 248 mp
23 archer 323 mp

as i remembered, every class gets different mp based on their class. and testing out, it also effects the rate of mana regen, as i remembered, whether that be based on mind or max mp i dunno, but in either case mana regen is effected so yeah.

pug getting mp cost makes no sense. their mp rate either the lowest or next to the lowest

Yeah...MP cost on our basic attacks is pretty lame. We don't even get anything major out of it. Meanwhile, you've got the OP Lancers with the highest MP pool of any DoW and ZERO MP cost on any of their moveset.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

This is why I leave the healing to the healers.

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lol, OK.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

What do you have to support this ????

What I have to refute this is a copy/paste of a dev post post :

"Mind (MND)
Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
Increases maximum MP
Healing effectiveness
(For Disciples of War 1 mind = 2-3 MP. For Disciples of magic, 1 mind = 9-10 MP)"

At no point have I seen any information to suppot the fact that once DoW class get more MP over another.

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You're flat out wrong. Different classes have different MP pools.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

What do you have to support this ????

What I have to refute this is a copy/paste of a dev post post :

"Mind (MND)
Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
Increases maximum MP
Healing effectiveness
(For Disciples of War 1 mind = 2-3 MP. For Disciples of magic, 1 mind = 9-10 MP)"

At no point have I seen any information to suppot the fact that once DoW class get more MP over another.

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my lnc rank 50 has 530 mp, my rank 50 pug has 420 and archers at rank 50 have more than my pug as well, so quite alot of evidence

thats like saying glad has the same hp's than arch because hp is calculated from vit -.-

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

lol, OK.

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What, no faith in your healers' abilities to do their jobs?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

What, no faith in your healers' abilities to do their jobs?

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Or I ignored your meaningless post because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about as a whole? You figure it out :)

I do agree, I recently started playing pug and hit r30. But I'm not too happy about having pummel, light strike, seismic shock I&II costs mp to use. Keeping stygian and resting here n there is the only cure, cause you cant really spam something that has a cooldown already...

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Or I ignored your meaningless post because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about as a whole? You figure it out :)

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Umm. . . you complain about the MP cost on your abilities taking away your ability to cure yourself. I point out that if you leave the healing to the healers, you should have 0 MP problems. You ignore me because. . . ?

Does the MP cost need to go? Yes. Should you be running into MP problems? No.

To answer the question, my copy/paste info came from an "ask the devs" I believe it was. I have not actually paid attention to know if it had changed.

Anyone care to test the HP/MP gain per each point added to Vit/Mnd for each class ?

As far as the MP usage goes. I do agree that it follows a more logical for magic abilities to use only MP and physical attacks to use TP.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

To answer the question, my copy/paste info came from an "ask the devs" I believe it was. I have not actually paid attention to know if it had changed.

Anyone care to test the HP/MP gain per each point added to Vit/Mnd for each class ?

As far as the MP usage goes. I do agree that it follows a more logical for magic abilities to use only MP and physical attacks to use TP.

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i showed you the different mp for different jobs of varying levels. pugilist is fairly low on the list.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Umm. . . you complain about the MP cost on your abilities taking away your ability to cure yourself. I point out that if you leave the healing to the healers, you should have 0 MP problems. You ignore me because. . . ?

Does the MP cost need to go? Yes. Should you be running into MP problems? No.

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"uuum" The point is it needs to go and also I don't believe you for a split second that you've ever tanked anything substantial before if you're going to puke up that tripe. Yes, healers do 95% of the healing but when a monster hits you for 1000+k damage you or other myriad of real-world circumstances that might pop up in the chaos of a fight even one heal cripples your MP. Again, not my point though but you saying that crapola is based on theory not real game practical experience. The point is even without healing yourself the MP goes down far too quick just from using the attacks that are part of your mundane arsenal and also give you a "buff" of some sort. The focus of the discussion wasn't about healing yourself.

Again, I ignore you because its absolutely evident you've never tanked (any "tough" NM) before if that is your actual stance because its so clearly based on theoretics. Stop pretending you know what you're talking about. If you honestly say you never have had to heal under any circumstance drastic or otherwise your clearly a none tanking pug.



Anyway - again I say - having mp cost on our normal attacks is absurd. In particular if one of the attacks is suppose to be a buff to our evasion being the bastard evasion type tanking class.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

To answer the question, my copy/paste info came from an "ask the devs" I believe it was. I have not actually paid attention to know if it had changed.

Anyone care to test the HP/MP gain per each point added to Vit/Mnd for each class ?

As far as the MP usage goes. I do agree that it follows a more logical for magic abilities to use only MP and physical attacks to use TP.

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I dont remember that dev post, please point me at it. Because it has never ever been fixed amount gained the same for each class as that statement says

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

"uuum" The point is it needs to go and also I don't believe you for a split second that you've ever tanked anything substantial before if you're going to puke up that tripe. Yes, healers do 95% of the healing but when a monster hits you for 1000+k damage you or other myriad of real-world circumstances that might pop up in the chaos of a fight even one heal cripples your MP. Again, not my point though but you saying that crapola is based on theory not real game practical experience. The point is even without healing yourself the MP goes down far too quick just from using the attacks that are part of your mundane arsenal and also give you a "buff" of some sort. The focus of the discussion wasn't about healing yourself.

Again, I ignore you because its absolutely evident you've never tanked (any "tough" NM) before if that is your actual stance because its so clearly based on theoretics. Stop pretending you know what you're talking about. If you honestly say you never have had to heal under any circumstance drastic or otherwise your clearly a none tanking pug.



Anyway - again I say - having mp cost on our normal attacks is absurd. In particular if one of the attacks is suppose to be a buff to our evasion being the bastard evasion type tanking class.

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I'm sorry, which ones are the "tough" NMs? I ask because I've tanked all of the high-rank NMs without healing myself beyond using Second Wind, and I did so successfully.

That notwithstanding, though, you almost had a point. I say "almost" because you're still claiming that MP goes down too fast when you're not casting spells. While I absolutely agree that the MP cost needs to go, the only time I've ever run into MP problems was when I was trying to do the casters' jobs. . .

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'm sorry, which ones are the "tough" NMs? I ask because I've tanked all of the high-rank NMs without healing myself beyond using Second Wind, and I did so successfully.

That notwithstanding, though, you almost had a point. I say "almost" because you're still claiming that MP goes down too fast when you're not casting spells. While I absolutely agree that the MP cost needs to go, the only time I've ever run into MP problems was when I was trying to do the casters' jobs. . .

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at 420 mp, and 40 mp a minute, max pug can tank unaided is 10 minutes, this number goes down the less mp pug has, so midlevel, your talking about probably half that time or less. Why is there even a timer on pugs ability to do its basic jobs.

the fact that you can make due is besides the point, there is no reason logically, that pugilist should have to make due. Pugilist isnt a magic related class, it has the either the smallest or second smallest mana pools out of all classes. Why is their main mechanic limited by mp, when no one elses is. Why did they decide the pugilist alone needs mp to regulate the use of his basic attacks, and basic functions when no one else does. the skills are not superior, and they are on the same type of times as other classes. pugilist has no means of returning its mp naturally, they are not an mp class, it is illogical regardless of whether you can get around it.

And also, when they start adding rules, and making certain skills class specific, will you still get stygian spikes? we dont even know. Its a foolish decsion.

every other class can do its basic attacks for free, because you know, its their basic attacks. its supposed to build tp, and provide the general playing style for the class. Nothing about pugilist basic style involves returing or even having mp, why does the skill use mp.

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Originally Posted by Physic

at 420 mp, and 40 mp a minute, max pug can tank unaided is 10 minutes, this number goes down the less mp pug has, so midlevel, your talking about probably half that time or less. Why is there even a timer on pugs ability to do its basic jobs.

the fact that you can make due is besides the point, there is no reason logically, that pugilist should have to make due. Pugilist isnt a magic related class, it has the either the smallest or second smallest mana pools out of all classes. Why is their main mechanic limited by mp, when no one elses is. Why did they decide the pugilist alone needs mp to regulate the use of his basic attacks, and basic functions when no one else does. the skills are not superior, and they are on the same type of times as other classes. pugilist has no means of returning its mp naturally, they are not an mp class, it is illogical regardless of whether you can get around it.

And also, when they start adding rules, and making certain skills class specific, will you still get stygian spikes? we dont even know. Its a foolish decsion.

every other class can do its basic attacks for free, because you know, its their basic attacks. its supposed to build tp, and provide the general playing style for the class. Nothing about pugilist basic style involves returing or even having mp, why does the skill use mp.

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Oh, I'm not disagreeing there. I think I've said in every post I've made on the topic that the MP cost needs to go, if for no other reason than because it makes absolutely no sense. :p However, I'm also not fond of his assertions that PGL (or any tank, really) absolutely has to be casting Cure on itself in order to be doing its job right. Cure and Sacrifice belong to the healers and to soloers, not to tanks, and I'd like to keep it that way.

ETA: Oh, and I also strongly disagree that the MP cost makes it so you can't keep up your basic abilities throughout a fight. Fights shouldn't be lasting that long, with the possible exception of Batraal (haven't timed it).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'm sorry, which ones are the "tough" NMs? I ask because I've tanked all of the high-rank NMs without healing myself beyond using Second Wind, and I did so successfully.

That notwithstanding, though, you almost had a point. I say "almost" because you're still claiming that MP goes down too fast when you're not casting spells. While I absolutely agree that the MP cost needs to go, the only time I've ever run into MP problems was when I was trying to do the casters' jobs. . .

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I quoted tough because there are none really, just ones that take more time then others. And again my point remains, because you disagree with me is meaningless and has nothing to do with the point of the thread. Also, I don't believe you in even the slightest way that you've never tossed a heal on yourself if you've tanked or on others as an off tank for emergencies.

Flat out I'm calling you a liar and there is literally nothing you can troll on about to change that. Never given yourself a heal because its purely a casters job... troll on trolly.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I quoted tough because there are none really, just ones that take more time then others. And again my point remains, because you disagree with me is meaningless and has nothing to do with the point of the thread. Also, I don't believe you in even the slightest way that you've never tossed a heal on yourself if you've tanked or on others as an off tank for emergencies.

Flat out I'm calling you a liar and there is literally nothing you can troll on about to change that. Never given yourself a heal because its purely a casters job... troll on trolly.

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Never said I haven't healed others. I'm not sure if you noticed, but non-tanking PGLs wind up with a bit of downtime in the rank 45 dungeon. Enough time to, say, regenerate MP spent healing the tank if the healers ask for help. If I'm tanking, though? Second Wind, and that's it.

Also, I like how disagreeing with you makes me a troll. Whatever else you might think of me, believe me when I say that my ventures into trolling involve a hell of a lot more sarcasm than this.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Never said I haven't healed others. I'm not sure if you noticed, but non-tanking PGLs wind up with a bit of downtime in the rank 45 dungeon. Enough time to, say, regenerate MP spent healing the tank if the healers ask for help. If I'm tanking, though? Second Wind, and that's it.

Also, I like how disagreeing with you makes me a troll. Whatever else you might think of me, believe me when I say that my ventures into trolling involve a hell of a lot more sarcasm than this.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Never said I haven't healed others. I'm not sure if you noticed, but non-tanking PGLs wind up with a bit of downtime in the rank 45 dungeon. Enough time to, say, regenerate MP spent healing the tank if the healers ask for help. If I'm tanking, though? Second Wind, and that's it.

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Again, you either lying or completely incompetent to say I only heal with second wind and second wind alone when I am tanking. Having Cure and Sac2 is a must for anything and everything that could happen. As I said reality - not some theoretical troll babble about how healers should only heal EVER. And again, as I first insinuated if you happen to have to heal yourself (or others in your sudden turn-around) you drastically reduce your combat potential because of the bizzare MP cost.

In no way did I imply or say tanks should being healing themselves - I pointed out the disadvantage of emergency situations touching upon MP use taking away from our attacks.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Also, I like how disagreeing with you makes me a troll. Whatever else you might think of me, believe me when I say that my ventures into trolling involve a hell of a lot more sarcasm than this.

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No, disagreeing with me doesn't make you a troll.Saying something compounded in idiocy and falsehood (I NEVER heal when I tank EVAAAAR) and going on about it when the point of the thread has nothing to do with it makes you a troll, trolly.

move along

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Again, you either lying or completely incompetent to say I only heal with second wind and second wind alone when I am tanking. Having Cure and Sac2 is a must for anything and everything that could happen. As I said reality - not some theoretical troll babble about how healers should only heal EVER. And again, as I first insinuated if you happen to have to heal yourself (or others in your sudden turn-around) you drastically reduce your combat potential because of the bizzare MP cost.

In no way did I imply or say tanks should being healing themselves - I pointed out the disadvantage of emergency situations touching upon MP use taking away from our attacks.



No, disagreeing with me doesn't make you a troll.Saying something compounded in idiocy and falsehood (I NEVER heal when I tank EVAAAAR) and going on about it when the point of the thread has nothing to do with it makes you a troll, trolly.

move along

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Your first two paragraphs contradict each other. First you say that Cure II and Sac II are must-haves for situations that arise, then you say that you've never implied or said that tanks should be healing themselves. Nevermind your post from earlier talking about being hit for 1k+ and having to heal, thereby reducing your offensive options. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds an awful lot like you're saying tanks should heal themselves.What was that about saying things "compounded in idiocy and falsehood"?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Your first two paragraphs contradict each other. First you say that Cure II and Sac II are must-haves for situations that arise, then you say that you've never implied or said that tanks should be healing themselves. Nevermind your post from earlier talking about being hit for 1k+ and having to heal, thereby reducing your offensive options. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds an awful lot like you're saying tanks should heal themselves.What was that about saying things "compounded in idiocy and falsehood"?

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Shhh, move along troll. Stop derailing the thread - your reading comprehension is your problem - not everyone talking about the point of the thread. Stop trying to be "right" - its not going to happen for you.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Shhh, move along troll. Stop derailing the thread - your reading comprehension is your problem - not everyone talking about the point of the thread. Stop trying to be "right" - its not going to happen for you.

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Heaven forbid I ask you go get your story straight. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Heaven forbid I ask you go get your story straight. :rolleyes:

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Or that as I implied later things are dynamic and sometimes - just sometimes - you might have to heal yourself or some such drastically taking away your combat ability and evasion quickly. You're the fool that took an idea and made it literal by imply I said a tank must heal all the time even though several times over I said its about healing utility - and that utility is hampered because it crushes your melee output. Something no other class has to deal with.

Sorry troll - you looked for a fight with lies (a tank NEVER HEALS) bizarrely literally interpretations of... something/somehow and you're still going on about it. This is why I was and am dismissive of you. Your post are foolish and I've explained my position several times over that the utility of healing drastically effects the combat output like no other class. While you imply that a tank should never ever EVER heal itself - and somehow my post insinuated that I... think... a tank... should always heal itself? Brilliant analysis, lol.

Like I said before, run along - your trolling is sub-par and I'd like to actually, I dunno, talk about the merits of the post rather then read your presumptuous asinine babble about... something.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Sorry troll - you looked for a fight with lies (a tank NEVER HEALS) bizarrely literally interpretations of... something/somehow and you're still going on about it.

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No, I pretty much implied that, until this is fixed, at least, a PGL tank shouldn't be wasting valuable MP on curing himself.

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. . .and somehow my post insinuated that I... think... a tank... should always heal itself? Brilliant analysis, lol.

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Well, there was that part where you called me incompetent for never casting Cure on myself. So, no, you didn't say they should "always" heal themselves, but you did pretty much say it's part of the tanks' job to heal themselves. I'm really not sure what other conclusion I was supposed to come to.

So, to recap:

You say MP cost needs to go.
I agree.
You say that, tanking the Ogre, your MP was "draining overly fast."
I point out that if you didn't heal yourself, you'd have plenty of MP.
You dismiss my comment because it's "irrelevant."
I ask how it's irrelevant.
You call me a liar.
I point out again that you should only be running into MP problems if you're healing yourself.
You call me a liar and a troll.
I reiterate that Second Wind should suffice for emergencies.
You call me a liar or an incompetent, say that tanks should always have cures on their bars, and say that you aren't saying tanks should heal themselves.
You call me a troll and accuse me of derailing the thread.

Oh, and throughout, I continue to agree that the MP cost needs to go. Did I miss anything?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

No, I pretty much implied that, until this is fixed, at least, a PGL tank shouldn't be wasting valuable MP on curing himself.

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I said that was theory not reality - fact of the matter is things arise time-to-time that require you to heal yourself or another thusly drastically (coupled with the attack consumption now) decreasing MP and your combat effectiveness.


So, to recap:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You say MP cost needs to go.
I agree.

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Then shut up and speak about the point of the thread - not your bizarre interpretation because you feel you need to troll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You say that, tanking the Ogre, your MP was "draining overly fast."
I point out that if you didn't heal yourself, you'd have plenty of MP.
You dismiss my comment because it's "irrelevant."

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I dismissed it as irrelevant because of your presumption (you don't know what happened) and your insinuation that a tank should NEVER heal itself. The assertion is so absurd (because its not reality - shit happens and its smart to heal yourself in a pinch for a myriad of reasons) and such obvious trolling.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I ask how it's irrelevant.

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As aforementioned you gave some carpet statement when the fact is things pop up that can make you need to heal yourself or a comrade in a pinch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You call me a liar.

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I called you a liar because of your implications about healing with the assertion you've tanked every mob in the game. I don't by that for a second. Every tank heals themselves time to time sooner or later. Even one heal drastically reduces combat effectiveness because of the MP linked with some of our attacks now. The fact you imply you've never healed yourself says you have never tanked anything "big" because thats impossible.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I point out again that you should only be running into MP problems if you're healing yourself.
You call me a liar and a troll.

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Liar stated above and a troll for going on and on about it and distorting things to fit your stupid premise. In fact, you're still trolling.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I reiterate that Second Wind should suffice for emergencies.

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Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't - the fact you think its so black and white again screams to me you've never tanked before. I still think - 100% - you're lying to make a point. Knock it off.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You call me a liar or an incompetent, say that tanks should always have cures on their bars, and say that you aren't saying tanks should heal themselves.
You call me a troll and accuse me of derailing the thread.

Oh, and throughout, I continue to agree that the MP cost needs to go. Did I miss anything?

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If you dont think a tank shouldn't have cures on his bar (and even if you do you apparently refuse to use them) you are incompetent. And yes, here you are still derailing the thread trying to save face when it just isn't working out for you.

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

PUG tank should stack VIT>MND>DEX then?

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not so fast there, i think the idea behind them adding mp to the Light Strike was to keep ppl from keeping the buff up 80% of the fight and make u choose when u want to use that particular ability. it also seems that they gave pug's 2 other tp generating abilities aswell, use these? I personally didnt even notice the mp usage while soloing r30 leves on my 33 pug @ 4 stars. i had noticed however, after i read this thread and did some field testing of my own. I found that using "Light Strike" in certain combo's proved more effective than spamming the key as soon as the cd was ready.


back to the point of this post: i personally stack dex>str>vit and i am very happy with my acc/eva/dps and find very few times i need an ether during battle.

When exactly did I say I tanked every mob in the game? I do recall saying I tanked all of the high-level NMs, but I should probably point out now that I don't consider Batraal to be an NM, or you'll get all snippy later. . .

I'm also quite certain I never said I refuse to cure myself. There's a difference between refusing to cure myself and refusing to cast Cure on myself.

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Originally Posted by bloodoath

not so fast there, i think the idea behind them adding mp to the Light Strike was to keep ppl from keeping the buff up 80% of the fight and make u choose when u want to use that particular ability. it also seems that they gave pug's 2 other tp generating abilities aswell, use these? I personally didnt even notice the mp usage while soloing r30 leves on my 33 pug @ 4 stars. i had noticed however, after i read this thread and did some field testing of my own. I found that using "Light Strike" in certain combo's proved more effective than spamming the key as soon as the cd was ready.

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Hm, I never thought of that. Perhaps in the soon-to-be updates the eva from light strike will be super effective rather then what it is now. That would bring moe thought of when to use it and make more sense for the mp (sort of) if it was more effective then it is now.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Unless the attack is magic based, like pugilist using a fire pawnch, then it shouldn't cost mp.

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Would it be something like this?

I like the MP consumption, if your running low on MP put more MND. I dont even notice it on most of my guys.