Frontlines ilvl sync

For me, one of the main aspects of any RPG is progression, whether that be through equipment, levels, abilities, or whatever. One of the reasons that I only played PVP in Guild Wars 2 for only two days is because there is no progression in GW2's PVP. Everyone is basically always on equal footing. But if I wanted to be completely serious about PVP and take it truly competitively, an MMORPG isn't where I'd choose to PVP.

I'm hoping that the announcement of everyone's item level in Frontlines being synced to i80 means that everyone will be synced UP, but not down. Meaning that there is still progression involved. (Hopefully we'll also find out that the statement about Morale not counting in Frontlines is false.)

I know some people might think that it will be better for everyone to be synced together so that there is basically 100% fairness, but honestly... I think some of the most fun I ever had in PVP in WoW was when I would join a battleground and after a short time starting to figure out which players on the opposing team were good and/or geared. When you run into a group of enemy players and you see Big Bad Bobby is with them, you sometimes have to change your strategy on the fly. You might have to fall back and retreat, or maybe you'll get your entire group to focus on him, or maybe you'll try and CC him while you kill the squishier players. And then of course it's fun when Big Bad Bobby is yourself. :D I don't think there's anything wrong with 1 player taking on 3 players, I think it's fun no matter which side you're on, though of course I definitely don't think that anyone should be running around 1 shotting anyone or practically destroying anyone... In MMORPG PVP I prefer longer battles. When I do Wolves Den, my funnest fights are always the ones that last for a while... Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Ilvl Sync is a bad idea, Square Enix actually ruins pvp with every ajustements for noob !!!

- Noob wants stuff early >>> SE gives i90 stuff from r30 to R20-28
- Noob wants play with other noobs >>> SE create a ranked searching, now you have to wait 10 minute waste in ladder for join lower rank in Q time
- Noob are still noob and wants more abilities >>> SE gives all abilities for all (No difficult choice, now you have all of them)
- Noob dont understand pvp >>> SE gives Job names on opponents head
- Noob are still noob and wants more feature to win >>> SE gives ilvl sync

RIP PvP !!!!! Next update noobs will receive an echo buff cause noobs will always be noobs.

I really hope a similar think in PVE... Ilvl80 Sync in "3rd Bahamut" and all "primals"....

Please Yoshida, never use Dark Age compare to your noob feature

I think next step will be an Echo buff for all noobs in this game....

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09...p-its-newbies/

PvE gear is "90%" of what PvP gear is. If they did this so ilvl90 pve and ilvl90 pvp gear is close, but pvp is still better I would be okay with this. I dislike the ilvl sync completely, it removes progression.

I don't even get why people worry about being outmatched in PvP. The way the queues work is it sets you up with players of a similar rank, no reason Frontlines wont do the same. If that's the case, your team and the enemies team should be fairly well matched while still having a spread of gear. If you're in i70 and you see someone in i100, that's just reason for you to go "/p There's someone in i100 over here", to either warn your team or get them to send backup. PvP where teamwork and communication are involved would have been nice...

I see level sync as no different than having separate queues for WoW battlegrounds based on level brackets. Unfortunately, there isn't enough interest in PvP in FFXIV to divide us into i50, i70, i80, etc. brackets so we all have to be playing in the same sandbox so to speak. Perhaps if Frontlines garner enough interest and enough participants, they will be able to open up different brackets in the future. The thing that gets me - and I will continue to reiterate this - is that the level sync in conjunction with the morale deprecation punishes everyone who worked for PvP gear in preparation for Frontlines.

Ilvl sync and no morale is what irritates me tbh, they have 3 options, leave it as it is and let them be casual about the whole experience and piss off their advent pvp players for those that still exist.
Second- create a progression filled frontline with morale implemented and no ilvl sync. 1 for casuals 1 for those who want to participate in progression pvp. If it doesn't work.. take it out w.e; use it as a trial run.
Lastly restrict the lowest minimum gearset to i90, and highest to 100 pvp. give the noobs i90 pvp gear as a default set.

work is done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edenlys

-snip-

---

I feel bad for anyone who's gonna take this post seriously. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vittorino

Lastly restrict the lowest minimum gearset to i90, and highest to 100 pvp. give the noobs i90 pvp gear as a default set.

---

Why not just hand out the full i70 set as entry level gear that you get for unlocking the Wolves' Den? Seriously. It'll be the AF gear of PvP. Entry level gear that sets you up for the endgame. Then no one can complain about not having morale gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

Why not just hand out the full i70 set as entry level gear that you get for unlocking the Wolves' Den?

---

Or, just make it so Frontlines requires R15 to enter, that way you'll likely be able to obtain i70 before getting there.

If it wasn't such a grind to rank up they could even have set it higher, then Wolves Den wouldn't be utterly pointless. When it was launched, in the quests, or just NPC dialogue in that area, it was always "Wolves Den is a training area", now they've 180'd harder than M$ and decided the Frontlines is beginner content and Wolves Den is utterly worthless content. Only reason they did this is because PvP wasn't doing well, but that's on account of their own incompetence, if they'd fixed Wolves Den soon after it was launched, people might not despise it so much now, and Frontlines could have been progression from Wolves Den. Instead they saw people complaining about the grind, and added 10 more ranks, then at the eleventh hour decided to unlock the restrictions of PvP abilities.

People have been asking for more game modes in Wolves Den pretty much since its inception, but the developers never did anything. Capture the Flag and King of the Hill could have been in Wolves Den months ago. Combine that with the adjustments we've gotten recently and adjustments to the grind, and people might have enjoyed it more. Frontlines is shaping up to be CtF/KotH kind of content, and I'm glad for that, but wouldn't it have made sense to introduce the concepts in Wolves Den first? Again, Wolves Den is meant to be a training arena... They've handled PvP terribly thus far, I'd hope after Frontlines is a change of direction for them, but I was already hoping it would be, and it isn't. If they have some amazing plans for PvP after Frontlines, now would be the time to share them with us.

They're trying to make this to where anyone can dive in and play vs needing PvP specific gear. Seems like this is the method they want people to get geared up through participation, then maybe move onto the more serious, higher skilled version. (Wolves' Den) In reality though, a lot of people are just going to do this so they can get the gear for glamours. (dat PLD armor)

The ilvl makes sense to me. You don't want fresh 50s coming in and getting steamrolled by people in full i110 gear. i80 should be pretty easy to obtain in a relatively short amount of time, so it makes it so everyone can participate and are at an even playing field as far as gear is concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

i80 should be pretty easy to obtain in a relatively short amount of time, so it makes it so everyone can participate and are at an even playing field as far as gear is concerned.

---

This, first it provides everyone with almost even playing field which is necessary because 90%+ of the game's population doesn't have pvp gear and don't forget people with higher rank still have better abilities + more stats, not to mention more pvp experience(if they didn't wintrade that is).
I think it'll be great as we'll see actual active pvp and actually more often than not balanced matches between the 3 teams which, even with all the things they've been doing to make entry into pvp lass painful, is still a rare sight in the wolve's den so i'll gladly give away my gear advantage for active and more fun for everyone PvP.
Now I only hope they don't restrict teams based on what gc you are in...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

The way the queues work is it sets you up with players of a similar rank, no reason Frontlines wont do the same.

---

Except this already screws up wolve's den queues for high ranked people , and those just require 8 people total imagine if they required a total of 72,48 or 24 players.. ugh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pibz

Except this already screws up wolve's den queues for high ranked people , and those just require 8 people total imagine if they required a total of 72,48 or 24 players.. ugh.

---

A large queue pool would actually be better for you... Your team has 24 people on it instead of 4, that is much more room to balance out ranks. If a r40 queues with r1s you can already see the effect balancing out ranks has on queue times. Upping the minimal rank by locking Frontlines behind a certain rank would also be beneficial in that regard. Not only are you balancing ranks for a much bigger pool, you're also balancing them from a much tighter pool.

You don't NEED PVP gear to be successful in PVP. In fact most of the DPS in PVP are wearing i100+ PVE gear. When you get "steamrolled" in PVP, it's because the person who womped you had high ilvl in either PVP gear OR PVE gear. I can understand wanting to get more players involved in PVP, especially players who don't typically engage in it. But don't we also want to keep them, too? When people get to a point in an MMO where they can't progress anymore, or progression has become very slow, they tend to get bored and move on to something else. We all want to have fun of course, and PVP can be fun, but we all want to progress too, because it's an RPG, and progression is the foundation of RPGs.

I just had an epiphany. If ilvl sync works the same way normal level syncing works (sync down to NQ white gear stats) then the best gear for the Frontlines will be base Relic/HM Titan weapon and the i80 armor from CT1.

Oh god no please don't make me do CT anymore.

But ilvl sync is inherently different from level sync so I don't think it will work that way.

At any rate no matter how you spin it, it's still stupid that they put in all this gear that will have absolutely no use whatsoever after 2.3. Nobody will EVER do wolves' den unless they have a VERY attractive daily roulette bonus or something. 400 xp for 10 matches/3 wins is just pathetic.

I imagine if PvP FL was favoring only the highest geared players, and everyone tried it on day one (resulting in 90%+ of the participants to be pwned within 10 seconds of the match /exaggerration), you wouldn't even have the required number of players to even attempt FL on day 2. If it's going to be biased toward only geared people and so one sided, enjoy playing a 72 player match with only 20 people.

You already have the advantage of having experience against real players instead of scripted AI. That alone puts you above the curve! ......... Unless of course it was all win trading.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

I imagine if PvP FL was favoring only the highest geared players, and everyone tried it on day one (resulting in 90%+ of the participants to be pwned within 10 seconds of the match /exaggerration), you wouldn't even have the required number of players to even attempt FL on day 2. If it's going to be biased toward only geared people and so one sided, enjoy playing a 72 player match with only 20 people.

---

Instead we're going to have everyone trying on day 1, getting owned because they know nothing of PvP, and then not trying it on day 2.

If it was instead a smart idea to grind Wolves' Den for a bit of Morale, they'd at least go in knowing what they're doing, and the difference between i70 and i90/100 capped at i80 is minimal, i70 can already beat i100s if they know what they're doing.

The point of Morale should be to provide a steady sense of progression to PvP. Why should people who've never done PvP be on a leveling playing field when they enter Frontlines? They wont be simply because they've never done PvP, taking away Morale isn't going to give them any better of a chance. All it does is make Wolves' Den redundant; why grind for PvP gear when it does nothing? PvE gear is better, why on earth would anyone waste time obtaining gear that's inferior in every way?

I've said it before, but they should fix Wolves' Den;

i55 cap Wolves' Den, where the crafted stuff is king and easily available (NQ from a NPC please).
i70 cap Wolve's Den, when you start obtaining i70 stuff.
i90 cap. (low Mythology rewards)
i100 cap. (low Mythology rewards, but more than i90)

Add to that some additional game modes (Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, both appearing in Frontlines afaik), maybe alter the map between brackets, adjust the leveling curve a bit (currently the Challenge Log is unhelpful, that just ranks you up and leaves you undergeared because it has no Wolf Marks for some odd reason), and add a Duty Roulette for PvP, and Wolves' Den would be fully functional; people want to do Frontlines, so they grind the i55 bracket. They get i70 gear fairly easily and are much more aware of how to actually PvP. Then they enter Frontlines where the difference in Morale would be 10 iLvs worth, they know what they're doing, they know Morale isn't the be all and end all, and they have fun. Even after getting to Frontlines, Wolves' Den remains an option to get i90 and close the gap.

The current alternative is Wolves' Den dies, and Frontlines dies several months after launch, because nobody will be doing PvP for any sense of progression. People will do it for fun, possibly rage quit when they lose, and that will just screw queue times over. People who want to do it will queue and not bother once that takes too long. If you have people doing Wolves' Den and Frontlines for progression though, there is always a core community around to fill the queues.

To put Frontlines and Morale into perspective; When Coil comes out and your gear is that of the last update, you don't ask for Coil to be leveled such that your gear is the best for it, do you? You go out and obtain the new gear by grinding tomestones in order to improve your chances in Coil. The exact same should apply to Frontlines; you do it, you realize better gear would benefit you, you do Wolves' Den to get that gear, then you return. Morale is needed to make a distinction between PvE and PvP gear, with no Morale you'd just use PvE gear and there would be no need to progress in PvP.

We should also put a cap on player PvP experience. All the people who have ever had any kind of PvP experience should automatically be turned into noobs when they walk in to ensure fairness. Also an intelligence cap, so nobody can be smarter than anyone else. Maybe an internet speed cap, reflex cap, etc. Let's make things as fair as possible by making it so no team wins or loses. Everyone gets a personal fireworks show and pat on the back after the match ends, then we all go out for pizza and ice cream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

i55 cap Wolves' Den, where the crafted stuff is king and easily available (NQ from a NPC please).
i70 cap Wolve's Den, when you start obtaining i70 stuff.
i90 cap. (low Mythology rewards)
i100 cap. (low Mythology rewards, but more than i90)

---

ROFL, yeah great idea lets segregate even more into 4 separate queues just for lvl 50, that will make it so much more fun and solve the queue times ROFL.
It seems you just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head and think its a great idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawkzor

We should also put a cap on player PvP experience. All the people who have ever had any kind of PvP experience should automatically be turned into noobs when they walk in to ensure fairness. Also an intelligence cap, so everyone nobody can be smarter. Maybe an internet speed cap, reflex cap, etc. Let's make things as fair as possible by making it so no team wins or loses. Everyone gets a personal fireworks show and pat on the back after the match ends, then we all go out for pizza and ice cream.

---

Yeah, this post is completely called for and not just mindless QQ.
They are totally gimping experienced players by putting everyone on the a level playing field.
Also if the people crying about this, are so "experienced" in pvp, that won't be taken away, they still have the advantage over the helpess nabs, so i can only conclude again that the issue is "QQ i can't pwn noobs with my uber armor and scare them away T_T"
Funny how you follow "intelligence cap" with "everyone nobody can be smarter" hmm...
The fact that this even gets likes, just further proves to me that most/some/wtv people QQing in this subforums over morale not working(FOR NOW, if you think 80 ilvl sync will last forever too i don't even know what to say to you) in frontlines just want to cry about it and have their way and don't care for an actual discussion on it or any form of reasoning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pibz

ROFL, yeah great idea lets segregate even more into 4 separate queues just for lvl 50, that will make it so much more fun and solve the queue times ROFL.
It seems you just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head and think its a great idea.

---

And you seem to just pick a single part of a post and comment on it without reading the rest, in a vain attempt to try an undermine the entirety of a suggestion. I'm not even going to bother repeating myself to attempt to defend this pathetic attack, I already offered reasoning for why separating the brackets wouldn't create longer queues, you're just deciding to ignore them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

To put Frontlines and Morale into perspective; When Coil comes out and your gear is that of the last update, you don't ask for Coil to be leveled such that your gear is the best for it, do you? You go out and obtain the new gear by grinding tomestones in order to improve your chances in Coil. The exact same should apply to Frontlines; you do it, you realize better gear would benefit you, you do Wolves' Den to get that gear, then you return. Morale is needed to make a distinction between PvE and PvP gear, with no Morale you'd just use PvE gear and there would be no need to progress in PvP.

---

What your saying here makes no sense. Its making the analogy that when a new coil comes out you should have to grind old content to complete it. Well, you dont. When a new coil comes out you can immediately start doing it and advancing with it and get drops in the first turn as soon as you beat it.
You dont HAVE to go out and do anything else since the first turn is balanced against what gear you have already. Each turn gets harder of course, but its still not something like what your saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

What your saying here makes no sense. Its making the analogy that when a new coil comes out you should have to grind old content to complete it. Well, you dont. When a new coil comes out you can immediately start doing it and advancing with it and get drops in the first turn as soon as you beat it.
You dont HAVE to go out and do anything else since the first turn is balanced against what gear you have already. Each turn gets harder of course, but its still not something like what your saying.

---

And I'm not saying you should HAVE to do Wolves' Den before Frontlines (not anymore at least), I'm just saying it'd be a good idea to get the Morale gear. Just like grinding new tomestones is a good idea when doing Coil. You can just do Frontlines without getting Morale gear, but you'd be at a slight disadvantage, one you can still close solely doing Frontlines to obtain the gear. Just like someone who obtains better gear before/during Coil has a slight advantage. You can only do Coil for i90/95 and i110/115, but it's faster to also get the Mythology gear alongside. You can only do Frontlines and earn Wolf Marks (they said same as Wolves' Den + tomestones), bit it's faster to also get into Wolves' Den to farm there (Wolves' Den matches should be faster than Frontlines). While that might make take people out of Frontlines, they also have tomestone rewards there, which should still draw people in frequently, depending how they work it.

The fact of the matter is that we will always be at an impasse with the PvE players because the majority of them feel that (to quote another poster) "FFXIV is a PvE game." Therefore most of them just consider PvP a diversion and they want to be able to freely come and go without consequence or disadvantage. There's no other way to understand their position unless you take into account the fact that they want to have their cake and eat it too. These same players will spend days grinding out atma, tomestones and alexandrites for their Novus because they feel it's worth their time (presumably because it would provide them an advantage in Coil). But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their position is simply hypocritical. inconsistent and untenable. Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing." In fact, most of the posters have spent their time arguing ad nauseum about how pissed they are that CT2 will drop Sands/Oils of Time or how the Echo Buff is making this game "easy mode for teh casuals oh noes!" This is hypocrisy at its finest.

Either way, this discussion is supposed to be about the iLevel Sync. If done properly, the sync should prevent players from having a gross amount of morale anyway so I don't understand the need to remove it entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their position is simply hypocritical. inconsistent and untenable. Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing." In fact, most of the posters have spent their time arguing ad nauseum about how pissed they are that CT2 will drop Sands/Oils of Time or how the Echo Buff is making this game "easy mode for teh casuals oh noes!" This is hypocrisy at its finest.

---

Actually I think many people feel frontlines and wolves den are SEPARATE TYPES OF PVP. No one that I have seen has cared about morale/gear/grinding in wolves den. Thats what arena pvp is for, add in some leaderboards - seasons and rankings etc. and have at arena! Its all about whos the best there.

Large scale pvp or objective pvp is a different TYPE of pvp totally. Until you can realize that you wont even understand the rationale at all. One shouldn't depend on the other. They both should have reasons for doing them, and different types of players will do them with some overlap of pvp'ers who like both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

Actually I think many people feel frontlines and wolves den are SEPARATE TYPES OF PVP. No one that I have seen has cared about morale/gear/grinding in wolves den. Thats what arena pvp is for, add in some leaderboards - seasons and rankings etc. and have at arena! Its all about whos the best there.

Large scale pvp or objective pvp is a different TYPE of pvp totally. Until you can realize that you wont even understand the rationale at all. One shouldn't depend on the other. They both should have reasons for doing them, and different types of players will do them with some overlap of pvp'ers who like both.

---

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

And just to be clear, I'm not an arena junkie. I prefer large-scale PvP. But I think segregating arena vs Frontlines and making them play by different rules is horrid design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

---

So are they separate or arent they? they attract different crowds and generally have totally different styles of play. I just dont understand why everyone is so upset and raging over this. More pvp is a good thing for people who like pvp. Period. Get more people into it and you will find more people moving into wolves den as they get the "bug" from frontlines. Regardless of morale or not. At least wait till its out and see if SE screws it up first.

Win trading DESTROYED most peoples opinion on pvp in this game, it made it so people didnt give 2 shits about even trying it and thought people who did make max rank were trash regardless if they win traded or not. Give it some time to sort itself out, and the taint of all that to fade and see what SE does on the morale issues then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

So are they separate or arent they?

---

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan. Hell, I'd even support eliminating morale all together as long as that 4th stat is replaced with something worthwhile. Maybe redistribute those points into Vitality and Defense (survivability is always important in PvP) or offer set bonuses (+100 HP for full Swansgrace gear or + 5 Stun Resistance).

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawkzor

We should also put a cap on player PvP experience. All the people who have ever had any kind of PvP experience should automatically be turned into noobs when they walk in to ensure fairness. Also an intelligence cap, so everyone nobody can be smarter. Maybe an internet speed cap, reflex cap, etc. Let's make things as fair as possible by making it so no team wins or loses. Everyone gets a personal fireworks show and pat on the back after the match ends, then we all go out for pizza and ice cream.

---

Reading your posts make my head hurt. There is a massive difference between a skill gap and a gear gap.

PvP stat is becoming obsolete. Many MMO's are creating systems to slowly move away from it. Skill is all that should matter in pvp. Why do you need a pvp stat when it normalizes between two equally geared pvp players? As I said in the other thread, pvp stats are pointless. It's just there so people can go "lol I one shot the newb." It has no other purpose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan.

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

---

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

---

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet. If you don't really want to face another player in the battleground, you really don't want Frontlines; you want SE to bring back Skirmishes from 1.0.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration either of our ideas anyway :D

---

I can at least see where your coming from, so its not like I dont understand totally, even if we wont change each others minds, we are at least seeing the "same things". But even Twin or Titan/Levi, dance or no dance...the fights not over till they die :P The dance is merely how you get to the objective, do it properly but dont kill the mob and you still lose. And your right about the pvp killing, I dont think I have ever won a battleground without killing at least one person, but its theoretically possible at least. The killing there to me is the dance from pve, just an obstacle in the way of the objective. No matter how much you do kill though, take no objective and you still lose.

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

IAnd your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time :)

---

Ain't that the truth lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway. :D

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tandy

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time :)

---

This makes me sad for its truth... :(

So far the developers haven't exactly handled PvP with the greatest level of aptitude when left to their own devices (at best they've been fairly slow at addressing issues), I'd rather they take points from both sides from these discussions and try and build a middle ground, than have a repeat of Wolves' Den when it first launched... Another reason I hate how SE handles content reveals (have done since XI), they tell us so close to release, so that if there is an issue with it, it's too late to really address it before release. If we'd known any details about Frontlines at literally any point in the three years we've been waiting for it, they could have molded it to better suit the community before release, rather than solely relying on feedback after release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

The fact of the matter is that we will always be at an impasse with the PvE players because the majority of them feel that (to quote another poster) "FFXIV is a PvE game." Therefore most of them just consider PvP a diversion and they want to be able to freely come and go without consequence or disadvantage. But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing."

---

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransu

Skill is all that should matter in pvp. Why do you need a pvp stat when it normalizes between two equally geared pvp players? As I said in the other thread, pvp stats are pointless. It's just there so people can go "lol I one shot the newb." It has no other purpose.

---

This. Again true PvP advantage should come from your skill in playing your class and your tactic/strategic skill everything else should be completely secondary to those. Any argument made in favor of gear being a major asset comparable to skill can only be viewed as ,as the quote above says basically, "Let me farm gear, so i can pwn those that don't have it".
Finally the only purpose gear should have is allowing people to create their own builds, with which iLvL sync does not interfere at all.

ROFL MY posts are incoherent messes? LOOOOOOOOOL
It's pointless arguing with you, you come back on your own words consistently, i'm done.
Also i don't need to attack you, your own posts do enough damage to your points on their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pibz

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

---

Look, "getting better at it" is intangible and not much of a reward in and of itself. No one downs T5 just to "get better at it" and no one farms Primals just to "get better at it." When we play a game we expect a tangible reward for our progress; we want something to show for our work. MMOs since their inception have offered progression based primarily on a gear treadmill. I challenge you to find me a single MMORPG ever released that did not offer gear as its principal reward for clearing content. PvP is part of an MMO and MMOs that choose to implement PvP almost unanimously have included PvP gear sets as part of their progression.

And I'm tired of saying this: Yoshida and the devs have pulled a 180 on what their plan for the Wolves' Den and Frontlines has been. Don't believe me? Read the following here, here and here.

You will notice the following:
1) The Wolves' Den was released as the "casual" PvP model and Frontlines were supposed to be the epic battles, the centerpiece of the PvP experience, not the first stepping stones into PvP.
2) Gear was intended to be a crucial part of the PvP system from the beginning. Changing that model 6 months later screws over the people who worked for it.
3) Nowhere does Yoshi-P ever make the statement that PvP should be about skill only. In every single interview he talks about progression through ranks and gear. For those of you who repeat ad nauseum that PvP should only be about skill and not gear, you clearly haven't been reading about this producer's vision for PvP over the course of development. FFXIV's PvP has never been about skill only.

Now, you tell me. Given the above, how could one be led to believe anything else but that Wolves' Den gear would be applicable to Frontlines? You may have me on a technicality that SE didn't publish anything in Patch 2.1's notes that said "Hai guise! Enjoy teh Wolves' Den but don't work 2 hard cuz u wont get 2 use your gear in Frontlines PvP! :D Plz look forward to it!" At least I haven't found that source yet. But just because they didn't technically state it in writing doesn't mean they aren't going against everything they've led the PvP community to believe.

That being said, I see only two ways forward from here that are fair:
1) Allow morale gear for all forms of PvP
2) Remove morale from the game entirely and exchange it for a usable stat on current PvP gear

No one here is arguing for an unfair advantage over other players. But since gear IS a part of this PvP system, we need to find a better, more equitable way of handling their stats so that no one (hardcore PvPer's, hardcore PvEer's or otherwise) are getting screwed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

If Yoshida wants to do away with Morale because it's unbalanced (and apparently impossible to adjust), then he should do so from Wolves' Den as well. After all it's unfair there too, right? So far though, he seems to want to leave it in Wolves' Den. Either it's unbalanced and needs to go, or it has a purpose and stays. Having it both ways is just inane, and if a community rep pops in and says they're removing it from Wolves' Den, I'll gladly shut up.

---

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

---

Especially when that "other place" will effectively be a ghost town with Frontlines. Most people I know, at least, have only tolerated Wolves' Den because Frontlines was promised (edit: and when I say that, I mean the horrible implementation of Wolves' Den, not entirely the concept of it. If it was implemented better, we'd have enjoyed it more, which again is something I've been suggested between being insulted ad nauseum). After all, we'd been waiting for it for three years. Once it hits, Wolves' Den will lose a good chunk of its playerbase, unless they drastically overhaul it as well (which I do hope for).

Keeping something which is already there and altering it to entice players into Wolves' Den seems like a better idea to me, though. Certainly since it doesn't have the negative implication of going back on your word, like Yoshida seems to be doing already.

Nailen, I understand what you want with enticing people to wolves den, but it needs to not involve frontlines. It needs to be an incentive within wolves den itself.

For the vast majority of people wanting objective based pvp, we would rather gnaw our foot off than do arena....FOR ANY REASON. Seriously, they could give me a golden chocobo that shit novus weapons on Sundays and I would rather poke my eye out than do arena. Morale gear not working and giving everyone base morale does the exact same thing just in opposite ways, and neither will force people into doing arena if they don't want too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shake0615

snip

---

First of all please don't compare how pve progression should work vs PvP.
Also if progressing in skill is so intangible and not having gear progression is so needed in PvP, i guess that why all those multiplayer(PvP) games that aren't based on that at all are so successful right?
Moving on..

You do get something to show for your work, gear(even if it's just vanity in frontlines), ability upgrades and now mounts.
Also nice info , if it wasn't for the fact that it is info that was nearly 5 months old, in some cases, by the time the game even released let alone the time they even introduced wolve's den, and more than 1 year old than the time we're actually getting frontlines.
Don't expect info that is almost an year old on content that is yet far away, to aklways remain accurate.
I will concede on the "never meant" bit being wrong though but, more recent statements clearly say(Not even talking about E3 ones, earlier than that) that Frontlines would be the first step to get players into PvP, so that they might eventually, if interested, get into what they call the "real pvp"(wolve's den) i'm paraphrasing of course and can't be bothered to find the source but it is the most recent info, therefore what you should have expected.

Basically just because they didn't envision it at the early development stages doesn't meant they didn't realize later it would be better, in fact that's the way game systems should be developed as opposed to basing them completely on someone initial sketch idea.