I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Teno

Please just stop. What you propose has debunked 10000000 times ever since ARR (and even though there were more sources of damage back then). With its gcd and encounter design this game is NOT made for -reactive- heal bots. Stop with this bs that seemingly only comes from clueless people.

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I don't think "debunked" is the correct word here.

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Originally Posted by Connor

But still, we (well, I) do exist! Just hiding in dark corners dreaming of things that will never be. I do agree that buffing is a very good compromise way, since it allows for a healer to contribute in more varied ways than just directly dealing damage to the enemy

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Honestly, I feel the same way. I prefer more healing, but I like buffing, too. The problem is it has to be buffing...well, works as a "rotation". For example, I hate AST right now (despite it being the most buffy of the healers) because it's oGCD power weaves you try to unload all in the 2 min burst windows as oGCD weaves between Malific casts. If they were GCDs and you were casting them all the time (like imagine some parallel universe where AST Draw and Play were GCDs but Draw had no CD so you could literally just keep rotating cards on party members to keep full buff uptime in between healing), that would be kind of fun.

So it's not just "does buffs" but how, and in this game, that means GCDs.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.

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That's because you're blind, can't pass up any of my posts without a snarky and insulting reply, and don't read.
And no, I'm not wasting one of my daily posts on you to say that. Unlike you, I don't run a dozen alts so I can get around the post limit.

EDIT2:

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Originally Posted by Connor

I do agree that giving healers oGCD buffs wouldn’t solve the issue, because as you say it would simply become ‘thing you use between dps casts’ as opposed to being a meaningful support option.

The thing is, we’ve actually had quite a few GCD buff spells in the past, the developers just will not stop removing them. Take Bard. They had Foe Requiem which was a standard cast, drained MP, increased damage taken by enemies (ok that’s a debuff but still lol), Mage’s Ballad and Army’s Paeon worked the same and gave a buff that gradually restored MP / TP. Warden’s Paean was initially a GCD spell (though weirdly no Mp cost), so Bards could actively remove status ailments or choose to proactively cast it on a party member (though it was kinda busted in PvP lol). There’s even more the further back you go. In the game’s alpha Archer has a ton of debilitating status effects attached to its weaponskills, Rain of Death even used to lower damage dealt to the enemy. Naturally these are all abilities for a different role, but at the same time they’re proof that ffxiv can have gcd based support abilities that actually affect a job’s playstyle and don’t fall into the trap of ‘just slap it between your dps spells’.

And yes, there is of course the trumpet in the room that all those support abilities had to get removed because it was like, disgustingly, game-breaking(ly), unstoppably over-powered in raids. But still, I feel like they could’ve worked to simply balance them more appropriately than just throw the entire concept out the window

I think spells like Bravery and Protect from Bozja should go into role skills for healers too. GCD support spells that can easily be utilised for optimal output, ignored completely, or used casually as and when required.

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Yeah, pretty much agree with all this.

Worst part is, they do it with our healing, too.

Stoneskin? Nah fam, Divine Benison. /facepalm
Cure 2? Nah fam, Tetragrammaton (okay, Solace, but...just for WHM, the other healer Jobs all do it with oGCDs).

I'd much rather "Proshell" as a 10/20 sec buff that has to be cast vs Temperance being an oGCD weave that does the same thing with no effort.

EDIT...3?:

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

I'm not wrong, you said you want every healer to cast everything on the GCD basically, which means, yes, the job becomes slower, there's much lower APM, and there are no more complicated burst windows, yes that quite literally means you don't like jobs requiring high skill, what I'm hearing is you want it to be like SMN, everything is on the GCD

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Source?

You're still wrong - I've never said I want every healer to cast everything on the GCD, "basically" or otherwise. I've said I think the majority of healing should be on the GCD to force people to break "X-spam" up and make healing actually require thought. Even there, I think there should be oGCD heals, I just think they shouldn't be one-button-solutions to all problems and should generally be for patch up, for emergencies (Benediction), or used in tandem with GCD heals (Plenary Indulgence, etc)

I don't think there should be DAMAGE DEALER burst windows on healers, because they're HEALERS, but even there I make exception. The entire 4 Healers Model I push all the time, in fact, would require at least one healer Job to have one, and possibly as many as three.

Also, SMN doesn't have everything on the GCD. Energy Drain, Fester, Searing Light, Enkindle, and Astral Flow, of which you get 1 for each Demi, 4 for Titan, 2 for Ifrit, and 1 for Garuda (making 9 per 60 seconds) are all oGCDs.

I'm not sure how you could be more wrong if you tried with that post, Titan.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I hate AST right now (despite it being the most buffy of the healers) because it's oGCD power weaves you try to unload all in the 2 min burst windows as oGCD weaves between Malific casts. If they were GCDs and you were casting them all the time (like imagine some parallel universe where AST Draw and Play were GCDs but Draw had no CD so you could literally just keep rotating cards on party members to keep full buff uptime in between healing), that would be kind of fun.

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You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

That's because you're blind, can't pass up any of my posts without a snarky and insulting reply, and don't read.
And no, I'm not wasting one of my daily posts on you to say that. Unlike you, I don't run a dozen alts so I can get around the post limit.

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I'm not wrong, you said you want every healer to cast everything on the GCD basically, which means, yes, the job becomes slower, there's much lower APM, and there are no more complicated burst windows, yes that quite literally means you don't like jobs requiring high skill, what I'm hearing is you want it to be like SMN, everything is on the GCD

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Originally Posted by Renathras

snip

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I do agree that giving healers oGCD buffs wouldn’t solve the issue, because as you say it would simply become ‘thing you use between dps casts’ as opposed to being a meaningful support option.

The thing is, we’ve actually had quite a few GCD buff spells in the past, the developers just will not stop removing them. Take Bard. They had Foe Requiem which was a standard cast, drained MP, increased damage taken by enemies (ok that’s a debuff but still lol), Mage’s Ballad and Army’s Paeon worked the same and gave a buff that gradually restored MP / TP. Warden’s Paean was initially a GCD spell (though weirdly no Mp cost), so Bards could actively remove status ailments or choose to proactively cast it on a party member (though it was kinda busted in PvP lol). There’s even more the further back you go. In the game’s alpha Archer has a ton of debilitating status effects attached to its weaponskills, Rain of Death even used to lower damage dealt to the enemy. Naturally these are all abilities for a different role, but at the same time they’re proof that ffxiv can have gcd based support abilities that actually affect a job’s playstyle and don’t fall into the trap of ‘just slap it between your dps spells’.

And yes, there is of course the trumpet in the room that all those support abilities had to get removed because it was like, disgustingly, game-breaking(ly), unstoppably over-powered in raids. But still, I feel like they could’ve worked to simply balance them more appropriately than just throw the entire concept out the window

I think spells like Bravery and Protect from Bozja should go into role skills for healers too. GCD support spells that can easily be utilised for optimal output, ignored completely, or used casually as and when required.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm honestly not sure even 90% hp every 15 seconds is enough for a pair of competent healers with our current kit. E12S door boss wasn't that far off that mark and could be spreadsheeted down to pretty unthinkable levels.

Our kits need to be rethought and pruned in tandem with changes if we're going to see a return to Coil/Gordias levels of healing pressure.

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Oh, I was thinking in dungeons. Although, the soft enrage mechanics in O12S and E12S both have similar healing requirements to 90% every 15 seconds; perhaps a tad faster. And both of them could wipe out a healing team's resources pretty fast.

That's beside the point though, as it is completely unrealistic to expect new healers to be able to keep up with that level of healing in casual content. Which was really my point.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

If they made healing requirement harder --> it would clense out the dps-healers
and we would actually get ppl decent/good at the role in our duties. ^o^

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Cleanse lol, as if healers who know how to play were a plague.
Hate to break it for you but spamming cure 1 and medica 2 is not knowing how to heal, good healing is all about efficiency not mindless bulk of useless hps

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

If they made healing requirement harder --> it would clense out the dps-healers
and we would actually get ppl decent/good at the role in our duties. ^o^

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Actually if they increased healing requirement, low skill healers would be booted from the role entirely. In this high healing requirement hypothetical, what happens in a boss if a dps is bad? Boss dies slower. If a tank is bad? Boss dies slower and healing requirement is higher. If the healer is bad? Wipe until the healer improves.

This is the primary concession that healer DPS provided--in lieu of a skill floor that would wall the party if not met, healers could express skill and reach a ceiling that primarily affected them and could be achieved through careful resource management.

J Allan Brack is a man I don't know beyond this quote but it does so often apply: "You think you want it, but you don't."

Sorry in advance this is a long post, but if I put it in HB tags the person who needs to read it might just skip it and then claim I've not answered their questions

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Originally Posted by Renathras

As I've told you before - you just like to ignore things I've said to you that answer your question so you can act like it hasn't been answered as some kind of damning mic drop moment - actual changes would require a complete readjustment to the kits. Potency balancing and oGCD timer adjustments. So it wouldn't be "with our current kits".

You aren't "Still waiting on this one" because I've answered you on this before, probably multiple times. I've never dodged it and I DID give you exact numbers before.

So you aren't "Waiting for an answer to a simple question", since you got answers, you just handwaved them away or ignored them.

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I'm not looking for any mic drop moments, I'm just curious what you think would be an acceptable amount of damage from an EX roulette dungeon boss would be, such that it would be entertaining for all players, of various skill levels. If you think this:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Given that, changes aren't being made to "dungeon bosses" to keep you entertained, since nothing will. So we aren't talking about dungeons. We're talking about Savage bosses and Extreme bosses.

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...That anyone who does Extreme/Savage/Ultimate should just... not be considered for 'dungeon boss' balance changes, that 'how to make the content more fun for a player of a higher skill level' is not something to bother with looking into, such that the dungeons remain piss-easy to those higher-skill players and are nothing more than a chore to get through to cap tomes (rather than content that is fun in it's own right), then it's not a 'solution' at all. It's a half-arsed deflection to let SE pretend they've 'made changes see we're listening guys!' but it would solve little to nothing about the issues being raised

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Originally Posted by Renathras

What level of DPS rotation WOULD IT TAKE to keep you entertained in current Extremes? The answer was crickets. Because I suspect we all know it would need to be something like BLM otherwise you're going to still end up bored. More DPS buttons masks the problem, it doesn't fix it. At the end of the day, you won't be entertained/not bored in Extremes unless you have something comparable to a DPSers rotation because there just aren't going to be enough mechanics for your SMN-lite rotation to be entertaining. 1-2 more DPS buttons, or even 3-5 likely won't help. Can you REALLY tell me that applying Dia every 12 seconds is going to make you not bored anymore? Especially when your AOE rotation will ignore it anyway in favor of Holyspam?

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I've answered this, multiple times: the rotation I suggested would be one I'd be satisfied with. The ones you've suggested, I'd have reservations about how long the 'this is enough' would last, but I'd try it. And here's the receipts for you to not read (again) because they're in a HB tag:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

We don't need much, just a couple of small, focused changes is enough to spice things up. For example, for the damage side of things, all I would ask for WHM is to reduce Dia's duration to 12s (because 30s feels stupid), and to add a new Water/Banish GCD with a 15s CD. That's all. That's not going to suddenly make WHM gigabrain to play, you could even make a macro to auto-use Banish if it's ready and Glare if it isn't, if you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The question was "how in-depth would a healer rotation in Lapis Manilis have to be for you not to be bored?", and this meaning "running it for ~8-9 months".

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And I answered. You might not like the answer, but it was given. I think that the changes to WHM that I have posted, almost a year ago now, would be enough to keep healing EX roulettes interesting to me, and also be casual-friendly enough that SE might actually implement them if anyone actually sent a copy across the design team's desks. Not much chance of that happening though.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I said I'd be agreeable to your WHM, and your SCH. Why am I getting flak for being 'opposed to your ideas' when I've literally said 'yeh this sounds alright'. For example, here for SCH, and here for WHM.

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https://i.gyazo.com/0788cfd735ae40a9...e04aa3d7b3.png

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Yes, I remember your WHM proposal, and agreeing that it'd be pretty acceptable.

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Reducing Dia to 12s doesn't sound like much of a change, but you can go to Bozja and try it yourself (so you can have Lost Banish in place of actual Banish). As for 'ignore Dia in AOE rotation', yeh, that's why after using the damage neutral heal, Dia would become a gain as Tornado, even in AOE. So your GCD AOE kit (vs a pull of 7 mobs) could potentially be (27 GCDs listed, so just over 1min of gameplay, or less than 1min if you actually use POM on trash instead of saving it for next expansion the boss):

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

-Holy (+14 gauge per cast) x 11 (gives a total of 154 gauge)
-Blessing of the Elementals (-50 gauge per cast) x 3 (total cost of 150 gauge)
-Quake x 3
-Tornado x 3
-Flood x 3
-Solace/Misery x 3
-Misery x 1

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...Or you can just stick to Holy as you do now, because it's a dungeon and nobody gives a damn if you fully optimize the heck out of the Haam RainbowGolems in Aetherfont. It's not like I bother to do the 'force prep Misery to use on AOE pull' thing in dungeons because it doesn't matter. Even though, unlike singletarget where it's a gain in raidbuffs, it's an outright gain in AOE, buffs or not. But the point is, you'd still be able to use the Dia DOT in AOE, because I thought it'd be a cool idea to have the DOT have an AOE component when it's empowered, such that you can tear packs of mobs to shreds with it, without the whole 'tab target, apply DOT, tab target, apply DOT' thing. If you didn't want to use that extra button in AOE (should said design be the one in the game) then you could just keep pressing Holy and not care.

So yeh, again for the umpteenth time, the 'damage rotation I'd be satisfied with' is what I suggested. Seems a bit silly to suggest a change that I wouldn't be happy with, doesn't it? Of course, you're free to ignore that and claim that 'Roe keeps dodging and never answers the question of 'what complexity would it take to satisfy?' because clearly the answer is that if it's not BLM hard then it won't be enough for them!'

And for the raidwide frequency/intensity question, I'll add some numbers: Current AST can heal, completely for free via it's 60s OGCDs, 20k raidwide damage each 20s, by just cycling which tool it uses like you would with WHM Lilies. I wasn't even in BIS, I put my old prog crafted set back on for this one. It also doesn't factor in Macrocosmos or Lady of Crowns. A casual player can handle this with just 100% Medica2 uptime (in fact, it'd be around 300p worth of overheal each time, as you'd only need 700p ish to equal the damage). But if you wanted to make GCDs 'required', you'd have to put out damage enough to not only match the HPS output from these tools, but vastly exceed them. Like, 20k every 10 seconds would be closer to what you'd need. And I don't know if every casual player can 'grow to meet higher HPS requirements' like you've said previously, if that's the number they're having to try and meet.

You're right that a change like this would take 'a complete readjustment to the kits'. The problem is, I don't know if you're fully grasping the sheer size of the 'readjustment' required. To get us using enough healing GCDs to satisfy your desire to have us 'feel like healers', without ramping the damage on raidwides (as that would be casual player-exclusionary), would require that all the 60s CDs on AST become like... 180s. Or 120s, with halved potencies. Essential Dignity to a 90s CD. Benison recharge time to 60s. Asylum potency halved or something (450p total instead of 900). That wouldn't just 'make us rely on GCDs more', it'd feel awful in practice. And I'm not just saying that because 'opinion', you can see how people felt about the potencies of AST in 5.0, on launch, when it's OGCDs were super weak. The fact that SE fixed them so fast shows that the 'make the OGCDs weaker/less accessible' 'solution' is not the one to go for.

And that's not even considering that if your OGCD potencies/CD are less accessible, then you're spending more MP thanks to the extra reliance on GCD healing. So now you've got 6.0 WHM style MP issues. So then, do you want to 'fix' the 'fix' by changing MP costs or Lucid's potency to rectify the problem you've created, of running dry on MP? Or would you want to leave the higher costs as a 'feature' of the gameplay, thereby raising 'complexity' of all of the healers (and thereby messing up your '4 healers' thingy)? It's easy to say 'here's how to fix the problem' but it's a butterfly effect of extra knock-on issues that get raised that also have to be factored in and removed or minimized, and no matter how it gets sliced, I can't see how 'more healing needed' results in an overall smaller devtime cost than 'add more damage buttons'

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Cleanse lol, as if healers who know how to play were a plague.
Hate to break it for you but spamming cure 1 and medica 2 is not knowing how to heal, good healing is all about efficiency not mindless bulk of useless hps

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Based on if they made healing req higher:
They would go OOM, and such healing would be too weak ^^

DPS and Tanks have expectations to their role..
so why shouldn't healers too? other then just do good dps?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Actually if they increased healing requirement, low skill healers would be booted from the role entirely. In this high healing requirement hypothetical, what happens in a boss if a dps is bad? Boss dies slower. If a tank is bad? Boss dies slower and healing requirement is higher. If the healer is bad? Wipe until the healer improves.

This is the primary concession that healer DPS provided--in lieu of a skill floor that would wall the party if not met, healers could express skill and reach a ceiling that primarily affected them and could be achieved through careful resource management.

J Allan Brack is a man I don't know beyond this quote but it does so often apply: "You think you want it, but you don't."

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Increased healing requirements does not make healing itself harder!.
it just means you have to press your heal buttons more often ,
rather then pressing your 1,1,1,1 dps button..

Also healing requirements should inc gradually with your level....
that way even new player can learn..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

DPS and Tanks have expectations to their role..
so why shouldn't healers too? other then just do good dps?

Increased healing requirements does not make healing itself harder!.
it just means you have to press your heal buttons more often ,
rather then pressing your 1,1,1,1 dps button..

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Serious question: for someone who is constantly saying that they need to "make healers healers" implying they aren't already while calling others "dps-healers", do you actually do any endgame "high end" content on healers? Have you proven to yourself that you can handle the healing requirements of content that makes you press GCD heals more?

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.

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https://gifrun.blob.core.windows.net...e5651dfb64.gif

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Serious question: for someone who is constantly saying that they need to "make healers healers" implying they aren't already while calling others "dps-healers", do you actually do any endgame "high end" content on healers? Have you proven to yourself that you can handle the healing requirements of content that makes you press GCD heals more?

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Let me define what dps-healer is:
It's the type of player you meet in PF/random groups - who dosnt heal or ress -> bc it's a dps loss. :)

Also the content i want more healing req is in NORMAL content...
Ex,savage,ultimate is different topic all together( why even bring it up?).
You cant balance/build around both w/o one of them suffering for it!
- this game balance around endgame(savage,ultimates), yet majority of player doesn't play said content!

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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its not just healers, even the dps are boring now. the classes are streamlined to the ground and it makes most battle content in EW boring.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Let me define what dps-healer is:
It's the type of player you meet in PF/random groups - who dosnt heal or ress -> bc it's a dps loss. :)

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Okay, so you're complaining about bad players. Majority of the players of this game are bad, which is why the normal content is easier than ever. Where players are concerned about DPS losses is in high end content that has DPS checks, not normal content where it doesn't. Discussions about DPS losses are inherently built around content with enrages, not normal mode content. If a player refuses to heal by not pressing the glut of oGCDs they have, they're very likely just a bad player, which is whatever.

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Also the content i want more healing req is in NORMAL content...
Ex,savage,ultimate is different topic all together( why even bring it up?).

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You: "There needs to be more healing requirements!"
Me: "Have you done the content where there's more healing requirements?"
You: "Why are you bringing that content up?"

lol

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You cant balance/build around both w/o one of them suffering for it!
- this game balance around endgame(savage,ultimates), yet majority of player doesn't play said content!

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This first part doesn't make sense at all and the second part is true because content that has enrages are where balance matters, content without it doesn't matter when you queue into it via DF and it randomly pairs you. There's not a chance of your job being locked out for being "unviable" in a random DF group without it being a reportable offense for them kicking you because of the job you queued in on. The current design of healers is built around the low end, the "normal mode" playerbase by the way. The developers have stated several times that it is, that they don't want healers to be focused on DPSing over healing and the gutting of DPS buttons from the healer jobs is so that they can have more of a "heal focused playstyle" (despite high end content being the one where this design doesn't work the most). Numerically the jobs are balanced at the high end, but the role design is absolutely not and is designed for normal mode healers "to not feel pressured to do DPS". I'll say to you what Yoshida said to us, if you're bored with your healing requirements, "go do Ultimate and suffer"

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It's easy to say 'here's how to fix the problem' but it's a butterfly effect of extra knock-on issues that get raised that also have to be factored in and removed or minimized, and no matter how it gets sliced, I can't see how 'more healing needed' results in an overall smaller devtime cost than 'add more damage buttons'

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I think there's a simpler way to look at this whole "more healing needed" thing. The one thing SE cannot modify in any way, shape, or form is time. So, we ask ourselves:

1. What fraction of every minute do you expect a healer to keep the GCD rolling?

2. Of the GCDs that healer is casting, what fraction is required by mechanics, and what fraction is available to help the party recover from mistakes?

Here's one possible scenario, which I'm aiming "casuals" and "normal content": We expect a healer to have a 75% GCD uptime. We expect 2 out of every 3 GCDs to be devoted to healing the encounter's mechanics, leaving 1 out of every 3 GCDs available to help the party recover from mistakes. Do the math, and that's only 30 seconds out of every minute that's spent on "required" healing. If I happen to be an S-tier healer with perfect GCD uptime in an S-tier party that never makes a single mistake, what exactly am I supposed to do for the other 30 seconds every minute?

That's the problem. How do you answer those questions such that normal content is clearable by casuals without also giving the S-tier folk large chunks of time for DPS?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Okay, so you're complaining about bad players. Majority of the players of this game are bad, which is why the normal content is easier than ever. Where players are concerned about DPS losses is in high end content that has DPS checks, not normal content where it doesn't. Discussions about DPS losses are inherently built around content with enrages, not normal mode content. If a player refuses to heal by not pressing the glut of oGCDs they have, they're very likely just a bad player, which is whatever.



You: "There needs to be more healing requirements!"
Me: "Have you done the content where there's more healing requirements?"
You: "Why are you bringing that content up?"

lol



This first part doesn't make sense at all and the second part is true because content that has enrages are where balance matters, content without it doesn't matter when you queue into it via DF and it randomly pairs you. There's not a chance of your job being locked out for being "unviable" in a random DF group without it being a reportable offense for them kicking you because of the job you queued in on. The current design of healers is built around the low end, the "normal mode" playerbase by the way. The developers have stated several times that it is, that they don't want healers to be focused on DPSing over healing and the gutting of DPS buttons from the healer jobs is so that they can have more of a "heal focused playstyle" (despite high end content being the one where this design doesn't work the most). Numerically the jobs are balanced at the high end, but the role design is absolutely not and is designed for normal mode healers "to not feel pressured to do DPS". I'll say to you what Yoshida said to us, if you're bored with your healing requirements, "go do Ultimate and suffer"

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All i ask is for us healers to have more healing in our gameplay..
Healing requirements shouldn't exist only in hardcore content
with pugs/new/unexperienced players lol..

Why is it so hard to comprehend.. that healers want to heal?
and don't forget the fact that Normal content is a big part of this game..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

All i ask is for us healers to have more healing in our gameplay..
Healing requirements shouldn't exist only in hardcore content
with pugs/new/unexperienced players lol..

Why is it so hard to comprehend.. that healers want to heal?
and don't forget the fact that Normal content is a big part of this game..

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There is a healing requirement in normal content. It's just set so low that you are easily able to meet it. It was intentionally designed that way to minimize the amount of times a healer wipes the party due to insufficient healing. If you don't like it, then tough. The devs aren't willing to increase healing requirements in normal content. They have received numerous complaints about it over multiple expansions now, and their response was "go play ultimate". So unless the devs change their vision for the game, it just isn't happening.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I think there's a simpler way to look at this whole "more healing needed" thing. The one thing SE cannot modify in any way, shape, or form is time. So, we ask ourselves:

1. What fraction of every minute do you expect a healer to keep the GCD rolling?

2. Of the GCDs that healer is casting, what fraction is required by mechanics, and what fraction is available to help the party recover from mistakes?

Here's one possible scenario, which I'm aiming "casuals" and "normal content": We expect a healer to have a 75% GCD uptime. We expect 2 out of every 3 GCDs to be devoted to healing the encounter's mechanics, leaving 1 out of every 3 GCDs available to help the party recover from mistakes. Do the math, and that's only 30 seconds out of every minute that's spent on "required" healing. If I happen to be an S-tier healer with perfect GCD uptime in an S-tier party that never makes a single mistake, what exactly am I supposed to do for the other 30 seconds every minute?

That's the problem. How do you answer those questions such that normal content is clearable by casuals without also giving the S-tier folk large chunks of time for DPS?

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This is a wonderfully sensible way to look at this, though I do feel that by lv90 we should be able to expect more than 75% GCD uptime and be okay with less than a whopping 33% over-time error margin, even in casual content. Even this understanding would likely allow us to push required healing to up to two-thirds of GCDs if we wanted to; we needn't baby our healers quite so much.

That said, I do of course agree that we should have more involved downtime activities available to us. That much should happen, imo, even if we spent 80% of GCDs healing in some content.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Increased healing requirements does not make healing itself harder!.
it just means you have to press your heal buttons more often ,
rather then pressing your 1,1,1,1 dps button..

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Worded differently, that reads as 'healing an EX trial like Rubicante and healing Living Liquid in TEA is the same difficulty, because you just have to press your heal buttons more often', it's such a hilarious oversimplification of what makes healing checks 'hard'

Also, the way I solved healing checks when I did Ultimates was to press 3-3-3-3, my Cure3 button. So... how's that any different?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Worded differently, that reads as 'healing an EX trial like Rubicante and healing Living Liquid in TEA is the same difficulty, because you just have to press your heal buttons more often', it's such a hilarious oversimplification of what makes healing checks 'hard'

Also, the way I solved healing checks when I did Ultimates was to press 3-3-3-3, my Cure3 button. So... how's that any different?

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The whole point is i want to press heals abilites more often and less dps-buttons.
It's not complicated at all.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Based on if they made healing req higher:
They would go OOM, and such healing would be too weak ^^

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Imagine going OOM in this day an age, only the ones who rely on GCD healing, not the "dps healers", woudn't be able to heal that because those have never pushed their tools to their maximum efficiency. If anything it would lock the role from the sylphies because they would be forced to finally learn how to use their kit.

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DPS and Tanks have expectations to their role..
so why shouldn't healers too? other then just do good dps?

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Because dps is king and that dps shows job mastery. Anyone can simply spam healing and get high hps, there is no difficulty or knowledge behind that, but in order to do good dps what most "dps healers" do is use content and job knowledge to know when and where to use their tools in order to be efficient. That is the healer expectation, being efficient and provide the most value to your group, not just being a sylphie, it just happens that there is a sector of healers who refuse to even try to fulfill it.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The whole point is i want to press heals abilites more often and less dps-buttons.
It's not complicated at all.

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And yet, it's actually very complicated to implement a solution that would give you what you want, without completely destroying the casual playerbase

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The whole point is i want to press heals abilites more often and less dps-buttons.
It's not complicated at all.

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Rather than pressing (let's say) 222 to make those little HP bars up, or 1111 to hit my single DPS skill, personally I prefer having to decide whether I should DPS, or buff possibly remove debuffs or heal at any given time.

Ideally I would neither be spamming only a very limited set of DPS skills as at present nor would I be virtually dedicated to healing encounter, both would be boring.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And yet, it's actually very complicated to implement a solution that would give you what you want, without completely destroying the casual playerbase

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On the other side, adding more dps buttons and a rotation can be just as harmful to the casual playerbase, given how common the "but my dps" mindset is in people. It's very likely we'd see a huge increase in party wipes across most content due to healer's not healing because they're focused on their DPS parse.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

On the other side, adding more dps buttons and a rotation can be just as harmful to the casual playerbase, given how common the "but my dps" mindset is in people. It's very likely we'd see a huge increase in party wipes across most content due to healer's not healing because they're focused on their DPS parse.

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Right, because somehow : healing requirements are so high in casual content (they're not), prior iterations of healers never had those extra skills (they did), SE couldn't possibly add extra skills only to higher level jobs so that it wouldn't impact newer healers (they could and do already), other jobs can't already solo content by healing the party without healers (they can and do), and of the piece de resistance - in casual content why would you even think anyone would be focused on their parse?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And yet, it's actually very complicated to implement a solution that would give you what you want, without completely destroying the casual playerbase

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Only for those without creativity and ability to think a bit beyond..
There are always solutions and ways to improve :)

Dosn't have to be extreme changes either.
We don't have a brigde between easy and hard content..
They could just add midcore section and add the desire changes there..
w/o ruining for the casual player base.

Also idk why everyone assume, pressing more healing buttons
will make healing harder for casual player..

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Right, because somehow : healing requirements are so high in casual content (they're not), prior iterations of healers never had those extra skills (they did), SE couldn't possibly add extra skills only to higher level jobs so that it wouldn't impact newer healers (they could and do already), other jobs can't already solo content by healing the party without healers (they can and do), and of the piece de resistance - in casual content why would you even think anyone would be focused on their parse?

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Because stupid people focus on parses in all content. Though I'd say people pretending any scenario that doesn't support what they want doesn't exist are stupider.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Rather than pressing (let's say) 222 to make those little HP bars up, or 1111 to hit my single DPS skill, personally I prefer having to decide whether I should DPS, or buff possibly remove debuffs or heal at any given time.

Ideally I would neither be spamming only a very limited set of DPS skills as at present nor would I be virtually dedicated to healing encounter, both would be boring.

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Idk about you, but i don't press/spam the same heal ability to heal..
I put heals in advance and buff them according to the damage output.

You can have a bit depth to heals abilties also you know-

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Because stupid people focus on parses in all content.

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Indeed they do. And yet, design doesn't consider that 'player might focus on parsing over doing their job' because if it did, DRK's 2min window wouldn't be as ridiculously packed as it is

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

You can have a bit depth to heals abilties also you know-

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Can you? Because if suggestions of 'what if we had like, one more damage button' is too much complexity for the casuals to keep up with (according to some), then the 'more depth' to healing would also be too much, surely? For example, AST's Star is more finicky to heal with than Rapture, because you have to predict the damage 10s in advance

If you want depth in your healing tools, then more depth can be suggested. But then you'll have to argue the point with Ren, because last time any 'depth in healing tool' got suggested by me, it was an AOE heal that costs gauge, gauge built by dealing damage, and he was not a fan to say the least

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Serious question: for someone who is constantly saying that they need to "make healers healers" implying they aren't already while calling others "dps-healers", do you actually do any endgame "high end" content on healers? Have you proven to yourself that you can handle the healing requirements of content that makes you press GCD heals more?

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Yes. I suppose it depends on what all you consider high end, but Savages and Extremes. As I've said before, no Static, so I tend to run them sparingly, but I've been doing Extremes since HW, and did a first Coils run with my FC (including Twintania kill) back in ARR. Until EW, I ran Extremes a lot and enjoyed them. I don't care much for the EW ones because they often have big mit checks and/or body checks, which have made PF abject misery and just not-fun. It's not healing requirements at that point since people just outright die (Gales 2 says "hi"). At that point, the fights aren't about healing anymore, they're about DPSing and hoping the 7 cats you're herding don't screw up specific mechanics. And that's not fun.

But the changes aren't for the people content with healing, they're for the people bored.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Also idk why everyone assume, pressing more healing buttons
will make healing harder for casual player..

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This.

I've explained it before, but it constantly gets ignored. Some people don't have a mind for DPS. Give them more DPS buttons and they can't handle it. But give them more healing requirements and they handle that just fine.

This idea that people can't press Regen or Cure 2 is just inane to me.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But the changes aren't for the people content with healing, they're for the people bored.

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So how do you make the people who are bored need to heal more, without affecting the healing demanded of the people who are content with current healing requirements?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

So how do you make the people who are bored need to heal more, without affecting the healing demanded of the people who are content with current healing requirements?

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This question is a double edged sword - how do you make a damage increase for the people who are bored without affecting the people who are content with the current model?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This question is a double edged sword - how do you make a damage increase for the people who are bored without affecting the people who are content with the current model?

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Simple: SE dumps the baby with the bath water and decides they’re doing it their way - even though there is much criticism about how they do things.

Increase the dps options and a casual player can keep playing the same because dps is optional there
Increase the healing required and a casual player wont be able to keep playing the same because the hps requirements are unavoidable

They are not the same and increasing the healing for the kit we have should go past "I just have to press *insert generic GCD that has no interactions with the rest of the kit* a bit more often" (which could be said the same for dps actions, I cant believe people find pressing glare and maybe handle other cds that hard yet here we are) or it wont solve anything

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This question is a double edged sword - how do you make a damage increase for the people who are bored without affecting the people who are content with the current model?

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By, as we've been through hundreds of times, making the potency difference between 'optimal' and 'suboptimal' low such that 'doing it wrong' is not enough to cause an enrage, but 'doing it right' has a gain in potency over 'wrong'. Avoiding the failure state of 'not dealing enough damage', that being 'you hit enrage'. Whereas with healing, you can increase the amount required to sate the higher end, but the lower end is not allowed to 'ignore' the extra requirement, it's unlikely the balance would allow them to play 'suboptimally' without it causing a wipe. And if it IS possible to play suboptimally re: more healing required, then it's not changed anything for the higher end, as they're already playing optimally as it is. Going from zero healing GCDs used to 'still zero GCDs used, but more OGCDs were needed' in a dungeon run is not gonna go down as 'successful rework' for the best players

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This question is a double edged sword - how do you make a damage increase for the people who are bored without affecting the people who are content with the current model?

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The other edge of ForsakenRoe's question is better phrased as: How do you make the people who are bored able to damage more, without affecting the damage demanded of the people who are content with current damage requirements?

• Need to heal more > Able to damage more
• Healing demanded > Damage demanded
• Current healing requirements > Current damage requirements

I admit that there's a loss of parallelism in changing "need" to "able" in that first bullet point, but I think it better preserves the whole "healers should be required to heal more" versus "healers should have more interesting DPS options".

And the answer to that is straightforward: Don't tune DPS checks any differently than they're tuned currently. Pick from any number of healer DPS kit proposals that are specifically designed with the first bullet point above in mind.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

So how do you make the people who are bored need to heal more, without affecting the healing demanded of the people who are content with current healing requirements?

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You'd pretty much have to have a reward for more quick/timely (not more) healing that results in an rDPS increase, rather than impacting survival.

That'd be something like players having lower output when on the verge of death (e.g., 1% less output per %HP missing below 50% HP), and/or the ability to cleanse Damage Dealt Down stacks, though that "healing" then would be solely Esuna.

In that gamestate, you'd maybe want to save ST oGCDs just to more quickly pop people's HP back up after unpredictable damage that isn't best solved via just another AoE, while using precast GCD heals on the more predictable stuff. That in turn would probably have us want a bit more granular control over the timing of our heals, etc., none of which would necessarily be bad.

However, it would ultimately be actions done and considerations made to increase rDPS... not survival. Which is not a "need" so much as a "want", as there is very little chance of that being significant enough to really impact one's chance of hitting Enrage (especially compared to just not letting people die, not wasting GCDs, and keeping one's casts rolling, as per now).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This question is a double edged sword - how do you make a damage increase for the people who are bored without affecting the people who are content with the current model?

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Literally any increase to damage that isn't so negligible as to not be worth bothering with (in favor of focusing solely on more rewarding factors of gameplay) but continues to be miles away from making a difference to the likelihood of an enrage in a normal party (the full number of players, none with broken gear, minds, or internet).

A commonly mentioned dependence on using or not using an additional tool, for instance, has been less than 10% of maximum DPS, which in turn tends to be at most 1.5% of party DPS -- i.e., negligible to one's chances to hit enrage compared to any given mistake that'd be easily visible to others or even just standard deviation in/from Crit/DHit luck across the party.

___________

Unless you specifically nerf of the damage contributed by the existing tools, allowing Healers more damage through their agency does not at all affect the engagement required of others. It's excess to requirement, and therefore will not affect those who do not wish to use it.

If Healers are not indirectly buffed through those new actions, and their PPM is instead siphoned off from their filler action, etc., to support the bonuses-over-filler of the new skills, then that loss possible would still negligible (e.g., under 1.5% of party DPS). However, there seems little need to avoid buffing healer damage, given that healers are already the role most likely to be skipped over in favor of others, so that is pretty well moot.

Requiring more healing, however, will affect all players, whether they want it or not -- because it's healing, and the only way to require healing is to make the party die when the healing is insufficient.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I admit that there's a loss of parallelism in changing "need" to "able" in that first bullet point, but I think it better preserves the whole "healers should be required to heal more" versus "healers should have more interesting DPS options".

And the answer to that is straightforward: Don't tune DPS checks any differently than they're tuned currently. Pick from any number of healer DPS kit proposals that are specifically designed with the first bullet point above in mind.

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Man can you just do my job for me, you worded what I was thinking but couldn't find the words to say

Yes, 'more healing required' suffers the same binary flaw as we currently experience with our healing output, either we do need it, or we don't and it's a waste. Being 'able' to heal more doesn't mean anything. We can pump Cure3 if we want, it doesn't do anything for us in terms of gameplay engagement fun etc, unless we have the damage coming in to require that HPS. And if we DO have that damage coming in, then it's no longer a case of 'we are able to pump Cure3', it's 'we NEED to pump Cure3'. In contrast, more damage tools, should they be tuned correctly (big ask for SE I know), would be mostly ignoreable. Let's say WHM got Banish tomorrow in a patch, and it's 350p. That's more than Glare. As long as the player uses EITHER button, they meet the DPS output for that GCD that was expected of them today, which is the 310p of 'Glare'. Banish's additional output would be, in the current tier, completely optional. Doubly so because we have gear now

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I've explained it before, but it constantly gets ignored. Some people don't have a mind for DPS. Give them more DPS buttons and they can't handle it. But give them more healing requirements and they handle that just fine.

This idea that people can't press Regen or Cure 2 is just inane to me.

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Because APM matters.

Because Hotkey muscle memory matters.

Because Spatial awareness matters.

Because Content experience matters.

Because Resilience under pressure matters.

These are all things that non DPSing healers have a tendency to struggle with. Deny it all you want, it's a simple fact.

It's not just as simple as pressing Regen or Cure 2. They can't handle more DPS buttons because they don't have the APM or awareness and oversight to utilise them effectively. And if they don't have good enough awareness or APM, that is going to hamper their ability to heal as well. Go look through your 24 man co healers over the last few years, it's right there in the logs. Look at the healers that have a low CPM rate, odds are they are the ones that are failing at DPSing, failing at healing and failing at mechanics. All 3 things go hand in hand. As such, holding some kind of belief that a healer who isn't able to handle doing DPS with some vague level of complexity will be more than fine at being an Osu superstar once the red buttons turn green is insane to me.

I still feel like the ‘if healers had to heal more Lil Jimmy NoFriends couldn’t complete the content’ is ignoring that like all things (unless you’re solo) it’s a team effort.

He might struggle to deal with enhanced healing requirements, but will the tanks? And the Red Mage? Did the Summoner fall asleep? What about the Bards and the Dancers? I mean, Warrior exists lol.

(Almost) every non-healing job in the game has ways they can directly or indirectly impact how easily healers can meet those requirements. Is it really right to say that higher healing requirements put an unfair pressure on newer healers when they aren’t alone in managing it? And that’s not even accounting for the fact that a large amount of content has two healers?

Overall I think it’s a fairly low probability of ending up in a party composition where there’s only 4 party members, one is a Black Mage, one is a Samurai, one is a tank who’s so bad they don’t know how to hit party defensive abilities or healing abilities, and a healer who simply cannot meet the requirements no matter what.

I guess what I’m saying is, i don’t think it would just take ‘the healer not being skilled enough’ for higher healing requirements to completely crush new healers. It would also take refusal from dps to use their various abilities to relieve that pressure and the refusal of the tank to use any kind of defensive or auxiliary healing abilities. Which, you’d have to be really unlucky if you were getting super bad players consistently, isn’t it law of averages? Most players are, well, average lol

Also as an addendum: I’m not using this in defense of the ‘make healers only heal’ debate lol. But I do think that if healing requirements were to go up from what they are now in general content, there’s more to consider than just the healers themselves in a vacuum. The burden can be shared with others if it becomes too much to carry, for want of a better explanation lol

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Because APM matters.

Because Hotkey muscle memory matters.

Because Spatial awareness matters.

Because Content experience matters.

Because Resilience under pressure matters.

These are all things that non DPSing healers have a tendency to struggle with. Deny it all you want, it's a simple fact.

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Though, increase their healing requirements and you tend to get at least the same degree of frustration as if their damage optimization required were increased (e.g., if their filler+DoT loop were specifically nerfed AND Healer DPS were actually made more impactful), except now it spills over from just them... to the party they repeatedly end up letting die.




To be clear, I think we could increase healing requirements quite a bit before we our answer should go from "...Learn at least the basics of play, then?" to genuine concern...

...but I don't get how anyone could think that others living or dying by their making correct decisions as to the necessary healing to be done in the next 2, 5, 10, etc., seconds and the most efficient ways to do that over time, and what mitigation will have to be out by what moment -- as per life under 75+% of uptime spent healing -- would somehow stress players less than 1-2 extra downtime tools.

Hell, even a 10% increase in the healing required (i.e.., 10% sustain potency per minute needed to prevent deaths) would be a fair bit more stressful to most than a 10% increase to damage possible (10% higher ceiling to rDPS, which may require optimizing additional tools to generate).