"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Because holding w, using an aoe and pressing 3 buttons is min/maxing.

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Right, that is the problem with this thread, no one cares about the middle. It's either we want to maximize every minute of this run by having everyone pull equally or no one touch anything, but tank. It is all about intent and unfortunately, you'll never be able to determine someone's intent through a computer screen. Good luck trying. Until it somehow becomes possible, you are complaining because someone else didn't bend to your will and that is pretty shitty.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

you are complaining because someone else didn't bend to your will and that is pretty shitty.

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lmfao "someone didn't bend to your will" you are literally clicking sprint and an aoe, if you can't do that by the time you hit late SB/ShB then idk go to tank school or something. it's not even min/max it's just straight up BASIC mechanics

i'm not saying this about new players/newer tank players btw, because obv those expectations are set differently and that's more whatever since they're just learning

You do you boo, but I've learned I have a better time banging my head against the wall than to continue arguments on this forum, so have a great day!

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

have a great day!

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you too fam, appreciate you! :heart:

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Right, that is the problem with this thread, no one cares about the middle. It's either we want to maximize every minute of this run by having everyone pull equally or no one touch anything, but tank. It is all about intent and unfortunately, you'll never be able to determine someone's intent through a computer screen. Good luck trying. Until it somehow becomes possible, you are complaining because someone else didn't bend to your will and that is pretty shitty.

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Saying "you pull you tank" is a pretty clear statement on the intent to let the dps die.

For some reason Trust seems more appealing when reading through this thread, thankfully we are getting more of that in the future lol

I encountered this for the first time last night, as a healer. It wasn't even a case of DPS pulling too many mobs -- we were in the Qitana Ravel. It was literally just the first lone enemy. But the tank refused to go in and pull aggro once the DPS had engaged and was snarky about it in the chat. I didn't want to let the DPS die just because the tank was being petty, so I tried to heal him, and the tank snapped at me for it.

I left the dungeon.

I thought this was just a one-off case of toxicity, but this thread has shown me that that this is more common than I could've known. That's really upsetting to learn. If you're a tank, your job is to hold aggro. Hold the damn aggro. If it turns out that the DPS did pull too much and the healer can't keep up or the tank isn't geared properly and it causes a wipe, ask the DPS to stay behind. It's not that serious. Wiping in a dungeon in this game is probably the least serious thing in the world. Y'all have your egos too wrapped up in this.

And before anyone goes "oh but it wastes time" -- really? Is there something else that you need to be doing in the ninety seconds it'll take you to get back to that spot? If you're that strapped for time, don't queue.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

From most case I've seen, when a tank go with the "you pull you tank" they don't put their weapon away, they just stop doing aoe to take the extra mobs off the person that pulled. But you also seem to be missing my point. Both are as equally stupid.
Yes putting your weapon away and doing nothing because you decide you don't want to tank anymore is against the ToS. So is going out of your way to make a bigger pull without everyone being ok with it, that fall under the nuisance behavior.
And since you like quoting the ToS:
■Nuisance behavior
・Expressions that compel a playing style
It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

So yeah, one player taking upon themself to pull more for someone else is just as much against ToS

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You'd notice a difference too, however. Aiding the enemy states: "the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy" while your pointed at examples state: "It is prohibited to make statements such as:".

One has to do with action, the other has to do with communication. the dps did not make a statement, they just played. If it's truly a problem to the whole party that they did that, you vote kick them, you don't intentionally wipe everybody (there by punishing 2 other people who had nothing to do with it) and complain about how I somehow removed your aoe button from your hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Thancred cannot even wall2wall.

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I have all trusts at 90. Thancred and G'raha can 100% W2W. I know, I made them, every time, because I'm not going slow for an AI that's perfectly capable of handling it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People tend to get defensive and stubborn when you ask them to do something directly in chat, because then it becomes about their ego and their authority as 'the tank of this dungeon'. This is both boring and a pain to deal with so you're better off not going down that route.

There's a little trick that you can do on the sly that's pretty consistently effective, though. If you're not tanking a run and you need to speed it up, just stay silent and walk about a hair's breadth behind the tank. The instant that the the first pack gets tagged, hit sprint and move to the spot just before where the second pack activates and wait to let the tank catch up to you. As long as you signal what needs to be done wordlessly, people assume that it was always their idea in the first place. It works the vast majority of the time without bruising anyone's ego. If they're still stuck on the first pack (which can happen on rare occasion if the tank in question has very myopic situational awareness), then hesitantly come back part of the distance into their line of sight as if to curiously check out what they're still doing back there. That usually gets things moving again. As long as nobody starts typing this is usually a fairly safe strategy.

It's unfortunate because you can really speed up runs by playing dps when you're supported by a semi-competent tank who knows how to fluently pull. Most people have a tank levelled that they can run dungeons with, but it's nice to have a bit of variety.

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This is actually a really good tactic that I forgot about. I do this when I’m on a DPS. I’m usually right behind the tank or often times I’m ahead of the tank. When they pull I don’t even stop running. I go all the way up to the next pack and stop just out of aggro range. But I always wait for the tank. I don’t pull for them.

9/10 the tank will come running up and pull the pack and we keep moving. It’s a great way to communicate without typing anything that could be misinterpreted as rude or whatnot.

Of course, sometimes they don’t come running up and are just back there with their single pull. And that’s fine. I just run back and start burning them down. They’ve communicated right back to me that they aren’t doing that.

No sweat off my back. I’m playing a video game and this is my hobby in my free time. An extra five minutes in a dungeon is not going to kill me. What else am I gonna do? “Quick! We need to hurry up and get this done so I can go back to standing around in Limsa!”

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Saying "you pull you tank" is a pretty clear statement on the intent to let the dps die.

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I also think some of these "you pull you tank people" have not read up on prohibited activities:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

You'd notice a difference too, however. Aiding the enemy states: "the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy" while your pointed at examples state: "It is prohibited to make statements such as:".

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It's still trying to make someone compel to a playing style. You can be tongue in cheek about it and say "Well the person that pulled didn't actually say anything, they just forced the tank to play as they wanted by their actions" but then it's exactly the same the other way around, the tank can just not say anything and still not be giving advantage to the enemies. For all you know, they didn't pull a group of enemies they didn't prepare for, they could even argue that ignoring the additionnal ennemies and letting the one person that pulled die would make these enemies reset and give better survival odds to the rest of the party. And whether or not it is accurate, if they say they believed it was the best course of action it's highly unlikely they'd be in any kind of trouble.

In the end my point still is, the ToS are broad on purpose and will always be more of an attempt to make people try to behave civilized. In both case it can be interpreted in anyway that fit the narrative someone want purely based on perspectives.
And let's not pretend that, whether it's the tank that refuse to help them or the person that took upon themselves to pull another pack for the tank to deal with, it is not about the ego of one person that'd rather push their own way to play onto someone else over just having a one line conversation to confirm everyone is on the same wavelength.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

It's still trying to make someone compel to a playing style.

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To which, I need to actually really ask this question because it gets brought up. Exactly how am I making you play different? You are pressing the exact same buttons in the exact same way regardless of the number of enemies once you have more than 1 at all. There is literally nothing that changes in how the tank plays. There is also literally nothing that is preventing you, because of that, from having them anyways. Nothing is stopping any of the tanks from doing spin no jutsu until things crumble, be it one, or two groups, as nothing changes in the style at all. That is, of course, unless you're intentionally single targeting in big pulls. Which, while that can be your style... I think most can agree you should probably be hitting everything, even if we ignore damage, just to at least keep enmity.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

In the end my point still is, the ToS are broad on purpose and will always be more of an attempt to make people try to behave civilized.

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I am aware it's meant to be broad. However, we do have examples, with exact wordings in what it applies to or not, even on whether it's action or words. I take things literal, I have trouble telling if someone's making a joke or not, or just giving a saying rather than being serious (I am the guy in script-writing class that drew a picture to go with my script because our professor said "Paint me a picture" and I took it literal rather than what he meant which was that he should be able to make a mental image from our work.) If it's worded the way it is, I will take it the way it is worded, simple.

Since we do wanna bring up how broad and vague it wants to be though, I do feel like sharing something interesting. We had a sprout who called a player in the NN the R word over saying UwU (You know, the fight), and they were swiftly removed, as you'd expect. A mentor decided to force the conversation in relation on whether or not it was okay (They were for it being okay, saying we jumped our gun too quickly). Multiple players were asking them to stop, and I showed even just the smallest amount of patience, telling them that they shouldn't have this kind of talk in nn, and if they continue they'll be kicked.

I received a 10 days suspension, for grief tactics, in relation to this, as far as my reading over the ToS for every single nook and cranny in it that could possible apply to anything I had been doing for the past 2 months (which, was little. It was NN, or craft/gather stuff. I was burned out of group content.) Now, this does put your point up that yes, it's broad, and not clear. It's made so the GM can twist what they might need to force a violation. But does that mean I should just play the game in a way where I can be 100% sure I'm not causing a violation for somebody? There are players that absolutely hate anything going too fast, to the point where I've been personally 'suggested' to stop AoE entirely, because they wanted to take the dungeon slow. Not 'don't pull big' or even 'don't pull' but literally 'stop dpsing please I can't see the enemies and it's hurting my experience and exploration.'

To which, we need to bring up what they repeat plenty of times for the ToS. What a reasonable person would find offensive. I would think a reasonable, average person, wants to be playing the game. And while you do want to argue that a dps ending up ahead of the tank is compelling the tanks playstyle, the dps is at least still playing the game, while a tank who decides to stop playing is not playing the game. That's a key difference, and I think we can agree it is unreasonable to also punish the entire party over one person.

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Originally Posted by technole

I also think some of these "you pull you tank people" have not read up on prohibited activities:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.

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As has been pointed out in this thread, that could easily be taken both ways. Forcing your play style on others, etc.

The TOS argument is just stupid in general. All someone has to say is “I felt forced to play in a way I wasn’t comfortable with.”

SE has banned people for simply emoting at someone. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

To which, I need to actually really ask this question because it gets brought up. Exactly how am I making you play different? You are pressing the exact same buttons in the exact same way regardless of the number of enemies once you have more than 1 at all. There is literally nothing that changes in how the tank plays. There is also literally nothing that is preventing you, because of that, from having them anyways. Nothing is stopping any of the tanks from doing spin no jutsu until things crumble, be it one, or two groups, as nothing changes in the style at all. That is, of course, unless you're intentionally single targeting in big pulls. Which, while that can be your style... I think most can agree you should probably be hitting everything, even if we ignore damage, just to at least keep enmity.

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I mean, yeah, there's a difference in playstyle whether you're tanking 3 or 6 ennemies. You don't need to be as aware of how to space your defensive CDs to always have something up so even a random healer can keep you alive on a 3 mob pull, making it easier to reliably progress without being overwhelmed by keeping track of your defensive abilities while keeping your dps rotation. Now maybe you and I find it easy to do but that doesn't mean everyone have to. You don't know what people's circumstances are behind their screen but they're still free to approach the game in a manner that allow them to do what they can at their own level of play.

I can understand how some people might end up feeling worried to pull more when I've had wall to wall pull where I pace all my CDs but the dps are barely doing any damage so the pull takes forever, the SGE struggle to keep me alive and I end up using living dead with 4 mobs still alive, allowing the party to finish 2 of them before I ultimately die then the 2 other by themselves before I rejoin only to have the healer say "Don't use living dead, it's useless since a sage can't heal you enough" and even after trying to explain that the only difference would have been me dying 10 seconds earlier they only reply "Just don't use it"
I've been playing the game enough to just roll my eyes and go on with my day, but someone else might actually believe that if they've got a sage in their party they're safer just pulling one pack at a time, effectively using a different gameplay approach to clearing a dungeon.

Don't mind me, just posting some cool stuff. :o

https://i.redd.it/tt5i5fe988j81.jpg

source: ffreddit

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

I mean, yeah, there's a difference in playstyle whether you're tanking 3 or 6 ennemies. You don't need to be as aware of how to space your defensive CDs to always have something up so even a random healer can keep you alive on a 3 mob pull, making it easier to reliably progress without being overwhelmed by keeping track of your defensive abilities while keeping your dps rotation.

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Okay. So, again, I just really need to make sure we're on the same page here. So you're saying yes, there's a playstyle difference, because you want to press a cd for bigger ones, and they aren't needed for smaller ones.

Under technicality, I can say you're right. You did have to press exactly one more button a single time, which is hugely different. But I guess then comes this question, and it's a simple one. Do you consider not using your tools at all, period, a valued playstyle? Because if so, we would have to agree the dps in your later example (who, I'd assume are just autoattacking or pressing just 1, seeing as I've managed just fine in big pulls with single target dpsers) are also doing a valued playstyle, which is... strange to me, since that example is one where they aren't playing, which I feel like isn't reasonable, to not really play at all in a game you're playing.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

You don't know what people's circumstances are behind their screen but they're still free to approach the game in a manner that allow them to do what they can at their own level of play.

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To which I know you'll quote this back. You're correct. I don't know what people's circumstances are behind the screen. For all I know, the player could be missing their arms, due to either an accident or a birth defect, and how would I be aware of that? ... Oh, right, there was that MCH doing top level dps with his feet, because he lacked his arms. Okay, so we can't mean physical conditions as players have shown you can overcome them, so we must mean mental disorders then. But in that case, you have to see it the other way too like you want me to, as there are players whose mental disabilities (such as ADHD) can have it start to act up from singles. I know from my own, personal, anecdotal experience, going small actually makes me feel groggy, and sleepy, and actually hurts my capability to play. So, you're right, I don't know their circumstances. Just like they don't know mine, or others, and the best anyone can assume is whatever is reasonable, which in this case, is that you should still be participating.

I'll say it again from an earlier post. If you have a problem with what is happening, you mention it, and you vote kick if it's staying a problem. You don't sit down, punish 3 people for 1's mistake, and have a hissy fit. You are 100% in the rules to kick anyone for difference in playstyle, this has been repeated by GM's countless times. But when you force a wipe simply because you dislike that someone, still somehow, got ahead of the tank that has multiple gap closers, you aren't being the better person. You aren't teaching a lesson. You're being a child, and should communicate. You know, like the bigger person, no? Stooping to what would be, in your opinion I assume, 'their level' isn't proving anything besides you, by your own definitions, are no better than them. In which case, you being upset is hypocritical at best.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

I've been playing the game enough to just roll my eyes and go on with my day, but someone else might actually believe that if they've got a sage in their party they're safer just pulling one pack at a time, effectively using a different gameplay approach to clearing a dungeon.

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So lemmie just focus on this real quick. Did you, or did you not continue to pull for said scenario? Is the tank in this story, if I assume you're just exampling and is not personal experience, continuing to attack the enemy? If so, this is not what this is about. I feel like you're twisting the argument away. YPYT is refusing to attack, at all, until the player is dead and/or removed from the party (though, like I keep stressing, you should use that second one instead of the first). Do you continue along your way in the dungeon because the sge couldn't heal you through LD, or do you sit at the entrance, say, "Well since you know how to tank better than me, go ahead" and refuse until either the SGE leaves, a kick pops up either for them or you, or they grovel at your mightiness? Because YPYT is the second group, not the first.

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Originally Posted by technole

I also think some of these "you pull you tank people" have not read up on prohibited activities:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay.

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"You pull you tank" generally isn't going to fall under either category. No one in the group should be pulling mobs when they don't know if the tank is ready to pick up those mobs (perhaps the tank is having connection issues or a small child ran into the room with an injury and the tank is attending to the child).

Someone who is not the tank and pulling without verifying the tank is prepared to pick up the mobs on the other hand definitely could be seen as exhibiting uncooperative behavior or attempting to MPK other party members (since healers are frequently the ones who pay the price when a DPS pulls as they'll end up with aggro from any stray mobs in the pack that DPS is not attacking).

Ultimately, it's going to come down to communication within the group.

I'd rather let the tank take the lead since they're built to withstand the damage and know what they're comfortable handling (if I'm healing and they're being exceptionally cautious I might try to encourage them to pull more but I'm not going to press them to do it). A run usually isn't going to take that much longer just because the tank is on the cautious side and depending on the party can actually make for a better social occasion as party members freely banter.

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

"You pull you tank" generally isn't going to fall under either category. No one in the group should be pulling mobs when they don't know if the tank is ready to pick up those mobs (perhaps the tank is having connection issues or a small child ran into the room with an injury and the tank is attending to the child).

Someone who is not the tank and pulling without verifying the tank is prepared to pick up the mobs on the other hand definitely could be seen as exhibiting uncooperative behavior or attempting to MPK other party members (since healers are frequently the ones who pay the price when a DPS pulls as they'll end up with aggro from any stray mobs in the pack that DPS is not attacking).

Ultimately, it's going to come down to communication within the group.

I'd rather let the tank take the lead since they're built to withstand the damage and know what they're comfortable handling (if I'm healing and they're being exceptionally cautious I might try to encourage them to pull more but I'm not going to press them to do it). A run usually isn't going to take that much longer just because the tank is on the cautious side and depending on the party can actually make for a better social occasion as party members freely banter.

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

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No, you pull you tank would fall under the aiding the enemy category. Note it state's 'not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation'. A tank's job is to maintain threat, gain and keep aggro on mobs so the party is not killed by monsters. YPYT is refusing to take aggro/threat off a dps/healer/other player, and thus is deemed 'not performing the necessary gameplay', that is, not doing your role you queued in (that being a tank). Now yes, someone can report a DPS using MPK or forcing play, but that does not excuse them from their own TOS violation. At that point (where the DPS keeps pulling despite the tank saying to please not) and the Tank pulling a YPYT are both acting like shitty individuals. One does not excuse the other.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If I'm really in the mood for a speed run group, then I'll form one with players I know and trust to be capable of a speed run rather than take my chances with Duty Finder matchmaking.

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And here's your answer, folks. When you sign up for a random group, you have to be willing to accept the randomness of it. It's what you signed up for. That's why it's called a roulette.

If you want a group to go exactly the way you want it, you need to form your own group. That's what Party Finder, Linkshells, and Discord are for. There are solutions everywhere you look in this game for whatever it is you want to do.

These types of threads are on par with that other thread someone posted about wanting some type of Elo system to gate players from running normal dungeons based on skill level. That's how stupid the forums are getting. Refreshingly, the majority of the posts in that thread were saying what a terrible idea that would be, and most pointed out how PF exists if you want really skilled players. DF is random.

That same exact answer applies to this thread.

How often do people actually wipe from w2w pulls in Expert Roulette and/or Levelling dungeons? I know that some levelling dungeons can be very sketchy (65, 71, 79 and 81) with their w2w's, but a majority are pretty easy to handle. The 50/60/70/80/90 dungeons I can't really see people wiping to if a DPS/healer pulls.

Like take Antitower for example. I can go through that dungeon as WHM and never need to touch Cure II and Solace once you can w2w in there. Assize and Regen is all I need for healing :T

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Originally Posted by Nestama

How often do people actually wipe from w2w pulls in Expert Roulette and/or Levelling dungeons? I know that some levelling dungeons can be very sketchy (65, 71, 79 and 81) with their w2w's, but a majority are pretty easy to handle. The 50/60/70/80/90 dungeons I can't really see people wiping to if a DPS/healer pulls.

Like take Antitower for example. I can go through that dungeon as WHM and never need to touch Cure II and Solace once you can w2w in there. Assize and Regen is all I need for healing :T

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Once a week for expert (usually due to technical difficulties or heal/tank fumbled/fat-fingered keyboard)

Twice a week for leveling (Generally in the 40-49 bracket, 51 (Snowcloak) and 83-87 bracket)

Once every 2 weeks for 50-80 (50-70 hits like terribly wet paper. Someone was "asleep" at the keyboard)

The tanks I've encountered that refused to w2w pull AFTER being asked (I'm not counting tanks that single pull but haven't been asked. Communication goes both ways after all) usual responses were:

-That's how I tank, deal with it.
-Then kick me. It's all the same
-(if being asked by healer) Complete silence and proceed to single pull anyways.
-It won't make a difference
-(after wiping once for whatever reason) "Small pulls from then I guess". Healer asks to try again. Tank stays silent and keeps single pulling.

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Originally Posted by Lium

As has been pointed out in this thread, that could easily be taken both ways. Forcing your play style on others, etc.

The TOS argument is just stupid in general. All someone has to say is “I felt forced to play in a way I wasn’t comfortable with.”

SE has banned people for simply emoting at someone. Good luck.

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If you emote spam with text on, you can be banned. No different than the WHM spamming holy getting banned in Limsa. That isn't even related to this context.

All the party would do is just vote dismiss, and doesn't have to say anything. Three people want to w2w, and the one is slowing everyone down, a different play style. That's an easy vote out.

The problem with some bad, or nasty players is they assume everyone queues solo, and that's just not the case.

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Originally Posted by technole

If you emote spam with text on, you can be banned. No different than the WHM spamming holy getting banned in Limsa. That isn't even related to this context.

All the party would do is just vote dismiss, and doesn't have to say anything. Three people want to w2w, and the one is slowing everyone down, a different play style. That's an easy vote out.

The problem with some bad, or nasty players is they assume everyone queues solo, and that's just not the case.

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Well, yeah, there’s always the option of initiating a vote kick and hope it passes. Good luck getting a replacement tank or healer, though.

This happened to me a few weeks ago where we kicked a tank for legitimately trolling. Had nothing to do with their pace or how much they were pulling. It was their behavior.

It took about 10 minutes or so to get a replacement. We were just twiddling our thumbs. Kicking a tank or healer is not worth it unless they are being toxic or whatnot. It’s not like a DPS who can be replaced instantly.

You can save yourself a lot of grief by simply forming your own party and static. Then you can speed run all you want.

If you go into DF you have to accept that it’s random, and you never know the type of players you’ll be matched with.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Once a week for expert (usually due to technical difficulties or heal/tank fumbled/fat-fingered keyboard)

Twice a week for leveling (Generally in the 40-49 bracket, 51 (Snowcloak) and 83-87 bracket)

Once every 2 weeks for 50-80 (50-70 hits like terribly wet paper. Someone was "asleep" at the keyboard)

The tanks I've encountered that refused to w2w pull AFTER being asked (I'm not counting tanks that single pull but haven't been asked. Communication goes both ways after all) usual responses were:

-That's how I tank, deal with it.
-Then kick me. It's all the same
-(if being asked by healer) Complete silence and proceed to single pull anyways.
-It won't make a difference
-(after wiping once for whatever reason) "Small pulls from then I guess". Healer asks to try again. Tank stays silent and keeps single pulling.

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I guess it must be a data centre thing, or my luck is being wasted on duty roulette parties (could really use that on loot rolls)... from 81 to 90, I only got w2w tanks (bless) while levelling SAM. There was a moment in levelling roulette where I got a single pulling tank (75 dungeon), but after asking if they could try a w2w, they complied and we didn't have any issues with the pulls.

I have been thinking about making an alt on the OCE servers, but you're making me think about going as tank so that I don't have to worry about the "my way or the highway" tanks, and... I don't want to, I've tanked enough :'(

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I guess it must be a data centre thing, or my luck is being wasted on duty roulette parties (could really use that on loot rolls)... from 81 to 90, I only got w2w tanks (bless) while levelling SAM. There was a moment in levelling roulette where I got a single pulling tank (75 dungeon), but after asking if they could try a w2w, they complied and we didn't have any issues with the pulls.

I have been thinking about making an alt on the OCE servers, but you're making me think about going as tank so that I don't have to worry about the "my way or the highway" tanks, and... I don't want to, I've tanked enough :'(

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I rarely encounter my way or highway tanks. All the information I listed was for wipes like you asked. Even back in shb and stormblood, I had rare encounters with tanks that willingly decided not to w2w. The funny thing about OCE is that it's mostly composed of alts who will w2w as early as...I wanna say halatali? Sometimes, those poor blokes forget that there are still some class/jobs out there that don't come equipped with aoe moves so they get confused about the lack of it, then I explain to them and they've been good sport it.

It's only been almost a month since I've transferred to OCE so time will tell but so far? The "new" people have been pretty gung-ho about w2w. Thank you OCE tanks for this.

Depends on how you see it. It might be a tank player that's very inexperienced and has little confidence in themselves or knows they're undergeared. I see pulling extra mobs as rude personally and its caused a wipe many times.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

Depends on how you see it. It might be a tank player that's very inexperienced and has little confidence in themselves or knows they're undergeared. I see pulling extra mobs as rude personally and its caused a wipe many times.

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tbh for the second excuse- don't queue up as a tank if you know you're undergeared, the game throws gear at you.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Well, yeah, there’s always the option of initiating a vote kick and hope it passes. Good luck getting a replacement tank or healer, though.

This happened to me a few weeks ago where we kicked a tank for legitimately trolling. Had nothing to do with their pace or how much they were pulling. It was their behavior.

It took about 10 minutes or so to get a replacement. We were just twiddling our thumbs. Kicking a tank or healer is not worth it

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I’ll gladly take my chances. Usually I get a replacement within a minute. If not, wouldn’t be the first time I’ve healed dps through a duty.

Tanks and healers aren’t as hard to come by as people think

As a tank main I pull wall to wall,so it doesn’t matter if someone pulls but if they have the chance

Great community by the way.

It will forever be a mystery as to why players who claim to want to "take it slow" are seemingly so averse to using Trusts, and insist on subjecting the entirety of Duty Finder to their whims.

Kupo, I get so "kupo" sometimes when I tank I pull the mobs the wrong way and just lol (but always correct it) so..have fun kupo :)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It will forever be a mystery as to why players who claim to want to "take it slow" are seemingly so averse to using Trusts, and insist on subjecting the entirety of Duty Finder to their whims.

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While I think our views are always opposite, you seem to be fair in your responses. I wanted to offer my opinion on this comment, if I may.

I mentioned in another post that I think a lot of the time, it is intent. Most people don't intend to annoy you. I play to have fun, to meet other people (even though no one talks in dungeons), and to experience the story. There are other reasons I play, but I don't play the game as a chore and I think so many people have started playing the game as a chore. Why does it matter if it takes a few extra minutes in a dungeon?

For example, take a pull, if the DPS pulls away to go pick up more mobs, aren't you losing time where if the DPS stayed with the group, the pack would be dead sooner and we could move on? No one really knows how much time we are gaining or losing, but here we are arguing over something so silly. Now there is a difference if people are intentionally being toxic, but without them calling it out, you (generally) are just assuming they are there to annoy you. Single pulls can be annoying, I get it, but at the end of the day, is it really that big of a deal that you let yourself get upset over it?

Honestly, I'd love to see how many people arguing for other's to "stop ruining their experience" go into PvP and either AFK or don't try.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

\For example, take a pull, if the DPS pulls away to go pick up more mobs, aren't you losing time where if the DPS stayed with the group, the pack would be dead sooner and we could move on? No one really knows how much time we are gaining or losing, but here we are arguing over something so silly. Now there is a difference if people are intentionally being toxic, but without them calling it out, you (generally) are just assuming they are there to annoy you. Single pulls can be annoying, I get it, but at the end of the day, is it really that big of a deal that you let yourself get upset over it?

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Yes we do. Mob pulls are spread out that you may not even lose a single GCD if timed correctly. At most, you'll delay two GCDs worth. Considering your base AoE combo is the weakest in your arsenal, it's a negligible loss. You also have to factor in that small pulls means DPS won't have their big hitting abilities for both packs, which is a considerably larger loss. A Dragoon that can put Dragonfire Dive, Geirskogul, Nastrond and Stardiver on a pack of eight mobs will deal tremendously higher damage than a Dragoon only putting them on three targets and not having any off CD for the next pull. Furthermore, it's a DPS loss for all DPS (sans DNC) to AoE below three targets, thus you're taking even longer on a three pack pull once something dies.

Even if it weren't obvious enough, we have logs to show exactly how much of an appreciable gain big pulls are. You aren't saving "a few extra minutes." You're saying upwards of ten depending on the dungeon. If not more.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes we do. Mob pulls are spread out that you may not even lose a single GCD if timed correctly. At most, you'll delay two GCDs worth. Considering your base AoE combo is the weakest in your arsenals, it's a negligible loss. You also have to factor in that small pulls means DPS won't have their big hitting abilities for both packs, which is a considerably larger loss. A Dragoon that can put Dragonfire Dive, Geirskogul, Nastrond and Stardiver on a pack of eight mobs will deal tremendously higher damage than a Dragoon only putting them on three targets and not having any off CD for the next pull. Furthermore, it's a DPS loss for all DPS (sans DNC) to AoE below three targets, thus you're taking even longer on a three pack pull once something does.

Even if it weren't obvious enough, we have logs to show exactly how much of an appreciable gain big pulls are. You aren't saving "a few extra minutes." You're saying upwards of ten depending on the dungeon.

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I find it extremely hard to believe you can save 10 minutes in a dungeon. Not saying you are wrong, just that I don't see it feasible, but if you are able to show this via a YouTube video, I'd be interested in seeing it.

EDIT: I mean, from a basic duty roulette and not a single pull, single target vs. big pull.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It will forever be a mystery as to why players who claim to want to "take it slow" are seemingly so averse to using Trusts, and insist on subjecting the entirety of Duty Finder to their whims.

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Why don't you just use trusts instead? They seem made for people who don't like dealing with human players.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

I find it extremely hard to believe you can save 10 minutes in a dungeon. Not saying you are wrong, just that I don't see it feasible, but if you are able to show this via a YouTube video, I'd be interested in seeing it.

EDIT: I mean, from a basic duty roulette and not a single pull, single target vs. big pull.

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I actually believe this when thinking about it more. We usually have, at minimum, four packs in between bosses, usually two walls. Give or take. And it takes about a minute to kill each one. Let's say pulling them together shaves off a whole minute (if you account for the fact that separating them makes the additional packs take longer after/before you popped your big burst damage). That's two minutes in between every boss minimum, so at least six minutes across three hallways.

If you have anything more than four packs (which a lot of dungeons do), then you can tack on another minute here or there. It approaches ten minutes pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

Great community by the way.

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It is, as long as you ignore the forum.

Despite playing since 2.0 I have never really hang around the forum. It's only this time due to the long queue at the beginning of this expack that I started visitting here, and it blew my mind. It's almost like seeing the dark-side of the game that I rarely if ever seen inside the game itself. Despite amount of complain/fluff cake I see on here, I think the number of time I run into a matching incident in the game in my all 10 years of playing is probably counted on the fingers.


My advise: go to reddit if you want to find people enjoying the game. Half of this forum feels like people are being forced to play the game as gun-point, or doing it as a job.

To my fellow forumers: it is only now I realize it's a blessing that I have never played with any of you. :o

lmao my post got deleted

I guess it makes sense considering how inflammatory it was. I still have nothing but contempt for YPYT players though.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

lmao my post got deleted

I guess it makes sense considering how inflammatory it was. I still have nothing but contempt for YPYT players though.

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Mines too although I guess we cant call out other people specifically "stooges" lol

Still, wanted to still reiterate about the whole "people with tank anxiety should just use Trusts" point a previous poster made, that it would be fine and dandy if it were for the fact that they seriously cant do so until ShB+EW msq content. Which is why the devs applying Trusts into the previous msq group content is a plus for those type of people.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It will forever be a mystery as to why players who claim to want to "take it slow" are seemingly so averse to using Trusts, and insist on subjecting the entirety of Duty Finder to their whims.

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Because they aren't actually interested in 'taking things slow' - they just want to get by with minimal effort on the backs of actually competent players who put effort into at least contributing meaningfully when placed into a team-based activity. You know, like normal people do IRL in similar situations.

It always reminds me of back in school, during times we were forced into groups for activities or projects. You always had one or more people who contributed heck-all, but still got a good grade for it based on all the work of the people who actually bothered to be courteous and put in the effort. It's why I vastly preferred when such projects were graded based on individual contribution, and everyone in the group was pre-assigned a task to complete.

I already have to deal with people at work not being courteous and doing their jobs poorly (or not at all), leaving I or others to clean up after them and work harder to make up for them putting us behind. It's incredibly tiring to also have to deal with it in a video game meant to be used to unwind from the capitalism grind and enjoyed.