Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

It also means an increase in DPS as your own burst will naturally line up with raid CD every time now.

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Asking you a legit question. What are the other cds that will fall under the 90 secs? The only one i can recall is brotherhood. Im just am wondering that is all.

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Originally Posted by Benn

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Well, first of all i wanna say your opinion is totally respectable and no one can say anything against that, you like current DRK form and that's totally fine, so leaving that clear let's go by parts.

First of all DRK is a butchered and disjointed kit, is not a thing we can actually debate, it's a fact, you can remove Abyssal drain or plunge, or the whole darkside and won't affect how you use the rest of your skills, at contrary to other jobs wich every or almost every skill contribute on build and dictacte how the job should operate DRK is just a bunch of skills that if you miss one or most of them wont affect at all the others ones ergo disjointed and total lack of any mechanic inside the job outside of TBN.
By your reasoning Living dead is like the rest of the skills, functional and works fine, is a pain to dealt with but do the job like the rest of the invuls, it is worse for the healers? yes but it works and so it's fine so why change it? i hope you understand what im trying to tell you when you talk about other skills like Delirium.

You claim you like the simplicity of tanks and don't need them being more complicated, ok that's a relative fine statement but have you even think about those players who don't wanna fall sleep when playing the role they love? this is not ARR where we have only 2 tanks, we have 4 and not all of them should catter those who like simplicity, there is more ppl around who have diferent tastes and are being forced to play the role reforms without alternatives of the preferences gameplay tastes they use to like to play before what they did on SHB.

The Dev time say they are happy with what they have that's true but what the Dev team and yoship wants are pretty much irrelevant in many aspects specially involving gameplay, they words are not law and they satisfaction of what they do doesn't go over the playerbase satisfaction, they create a game but at the same time they are offering a service and as a customers we have the right to demand changes specially if what they are doing is set aside part of the Tank and Healer mains by oversimplified the whole role when they have enough jobs on them to please everyone to a more aceptable status and they don't bcs they don't give -and sorry for the rude expresion im going to spell- a F*** about our feedback, (remember we have been noticed on the liver letter but have been say practically sorry not sorry we don't care).
There is a lot of examples about this last point, for example when they nerfed 2B bottoms bcs they feel it and the comunity make them to revert that awful change, or when they energically claimed that will be only going to be Female Vieras and Male Roghtgars and now they are going to add the missing genders bcs we didn't agree with they satisfaction on what they did, or a more relatable thing to what we are discussing here when they claimed that SHB Monk was the best thing they did, so proud of they work with the job and yada yada but they have to rework it at the end of SHB to rethink what they are doing with the job on EWK now, the dev team satisfaction matter not specially when they are awfully complacient and heavely negligent in this case on Tanks and Healers with DRK and SCH to be more specific.

In resume your opinion is fine but don't expect someone like me accept current DRK, they take my fav job of the game and throw it to the trash can to gime me this WAR copy of the job, Dev words are not final and you are not the only player here in the game so the entire role shouln't be cattering exclusively to your prefences when we have more than enough jobs for it and having the DPS role doing with their jobs what we are asking to have here, diferent tanks that feel unique and diferent and have diferent skill ceiling to catter those players how like simlicity and those who like something more complex and engaging at the same time, it's not that hard when the DPS role is doing that.

all been say peace, i end being extending myself a bit to much ^^

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Originally Posted by Benn

I dont' think that is a nerf. It's a quality of life change, becasue Delirium will also now have from what I heard 3 charges, not duration. So instead of having 5 skill spam combo on 90s cooldown you will have 2x 3 skill combo on 60s cooldown. Also If I understood LL correctly we will get a Finisher move (that big Purple Slash) to that. I think it's so that Delirium is no longer a "MUST SQEEZE 5 SKILLS IN 10s WINDOW OR I AM BAD!" and isntead will be "ok, I have 3 charges now so 1...2...ok, dodge taht AOE, ok, now 3 and finisher".

Thats how I see it.

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Oh i wanted to point on this DRK is not getting a finisher, that purple straight line that feels like an upgraded flood is a GCD that is going to be only usable under living shadow window nothing else, it won't trigger at the end of delirium as they trailer show DRK use it 2 times under living shadow without delirium matching with what Yoship say that living shadow will get a new attack.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Not necessarily, from the screenshoted tooltips from SMN and RPR, we can assume, many 180s->120s burst buffs have been nerfed from 5% to 3%; even tho RPR is new, the numbers are suspiciously identical.

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Most burst CDS are dropping down to 60s and 120s come 6.0. The 5% to 3% nerf is going to balance the DPS across all classes. At least I think it is.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

Asking you a legit question. What are the other cds that will fall under the 90 secs? The only one i can recall is brotherhood. Im just am wondering that is all.

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The 90sec CDs in EW will be outliers. We already know Brotherhood went to 120sec and Riddle of Fire went to 60sec. Monk got a new 90sec Riddle of Wind CD (50% auto attack speed boost) apparently. BLM Ley Lines are still 90sec too.

Their goal was for most of them to align on 60/120sec windows instead of having some jobs somehow having their burst desynced from everybody else.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Most burst CDS are dropping down to 60s and 120s come 6.0. The 5% to 3% nerf is going to balance the DPS across all classes. At least I think it is.

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Just saying that the reduced CD plus reduced GCD/CD does NOT result in higher DPS just because they line up more often. 5% / 180s x 120s is 3.33%, so there is a slight nerf. Of course, there will be adjustments anyway, so no reason to discuss DPS right now.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Just saying that the reduced CD plus reduced GCD/CD does NOT result in higher DPS just because they line up more often. 5% / 180s x 120s is 3.33%, so there is a slight nerf. Of course, there will be adjustments anyway, so no reason to discuss DPS right now.

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You miss the DPS realistic loss when people are 0,3 sec too late and miss their 5th Bloodspiller or 2 OGCDs becasue they have tigh window for a long combo with a long cooldown. Consistency always nets better DPS. Opener is only small part of whole fight.

Remember that 99% of playerbase is not Xenos. Faster and smoother DPS window will result in DPS increase for most players since they won't have to perfectly know every fight to "can I squeeze here that 4 and 5th hit or I will waste my delirium?"

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Originally Posted by shao32

Oh i wanted to point on this DRK is not getting a finisher, that purple straight line that feels like an upgraded flood is a GCD that is going to be only usable under living shadow window nothing else, it won't trigger at the end of delirium as they trailer show DRK use it 2 times under living shadow without delirium matching with what Yoship say that living shadow will get a new attack.

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Seems like DRK is getting the life of the dragon treatment during the time your shadow dot is out. The trailer is underwhelming but I’m trying to hold out hope there are traits which allow for more interplay within DRKs kit and abilities/spells they didn’t show.

Delirium is what we were asking for during shb if they didn’t rework so.... eh.

Bw is still the same is crap if it’s the same - if an ability is dependent on how high ping your connection is then it’s poorly designed. If they want to keep it the same then do away with spell speed&skill speed to consolidate it to one. That way if you need to speed up your baseline to get the “intended” result you aren’t forced to meld skill speed or spell speed to hit that 5th gcd. At the least bw needs to get the same treatment as most think delirium is getting - instead of the timed window give the player 5gcd.

LD, as usual, is stupid, and DRKs kit has to make for its existence. I’m crossing my fingers that I’m going to find out LD was reworked come oct 13th.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

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i feel like i've pointed out the skills that make DRK and WAR near carbon copies in the past, but i CBA to find it.
we all know Bloodspiller = Fell Cleave, and Delirium = IR. Blood weapon's a more jank Infuriate.

Just because you disagree with a viewpoint doesn't make it wrong, especially if you're going to not analyze the merit to the arguments made. DRK plays so close to WAR that, yes, comparing their skills it's not hard to see "oh, A is like B."

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Originally Posted by Benn

You miss the DPS realistic loss when people are 0,3 sec too late and miss their 5th Bloodspiller or 2 OGCDs becasue they have tigh window for a long combo with a long cooldown. Consistency always nets better DPS. Opener is only small part of whole fight.

Remember that 99% of playerbase is not Xenos. Faster and smoother DPS window will result in DPS increase for most players since they won't have to perfectly know every fight to "can I squeeze here that 4 and 5th hit or I will waste my delirium?"

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The argument that we would gain more DPS since our CDs will line up every 60/120s is false and nothing to do with stacks/charges etc. That's just QoL changes, as you have already stated, nothing more.

Also, I don't think Delirium is an issue - and if it is, my guess is their GCD/SkS is most likely too slow/low. The bigger issue is Blood Weapon, and the trailer didn't tell us whether this ability will work with stacks or not. But from what we have seen, and what the vfx are telling us, they didn't change BW, - and I as said, it is the bigger problem here.

The question is what would they gain in reworking DRK to be specifically more interesting? It's blatantly obvious they have no desire to interact with the tank playerbase on a whole.

What they did in 5.0 was purely intentional, and so was the similiarity between Inner Release and Delirium. Much to its dismay, they are very clear in their approach albeit in a very non-direct way. What they are trying to do is lowering the skill ceiling to make tanks accessible to everyone. You could argue DRK is an alternative to your 3 other tanks in regards to more interesting gameplay, but that isn't true anymore and most likely will stay that way.

I think what people truly dislike is the fact you took a job with its own identity and completly stripped it naked in a completly unreasonable fashion. Why the developers are doing this is beyond me, but it probably goes to show that they don't care about our opinions as much as we would like to admit.

With all of that said, your HW DRK is a relic of the past. A time where developers generally could be more experimental, because the prospect of losing millions of players wasn't there at the time. They won't miss out on the sweet bucks guys, can't blame em' either.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

i feel like i've pointed out the skills that make DRK and WAR near carbon copies in the past, but i CBA to find it.
we all know Bloodspiller = Fell Cleave, and Delirium = IR. Blood weapon's a more jank Infuriate.

Just because you disagree with a viewpoint doesn't make it wrong, especially if you're going to not analyze the merit to the arguments made. DRK plays so close to WAR that, yes, comparing their skills it's not hard to see "oh, A is like B."

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The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

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Thank you! That's the kind of things that need to be said here.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

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Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are at best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

(spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again)

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Um, as someone whos first pick was Samurai and I played him the most.... that's basically how many classes play. You throw everything you can in burst window, and then use your base combo till all CDs alligne again. Samurai works on strict 60s and 120s burst windows and between that all you do is spam his long basic chain.

I mean, you could make that argument about most jobs in FF. That's how system works. FF is mostly a build-up-spender system and I don't see what wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

What they are trying to do is lowering the skill ceiling to make tanks accessible to everyone. You could argue DRK is an alternative to your 3 other tanks in regards to more interesting gameplay, but that isn't true anymore and most likely will stay that way.
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This is also my take, and you may hate me for it as new player but that's the only reason FF is my first MMO where I want to main tanks. Becasue tanks already have huge responsibility in party and pressure and I absolutely would not want to have complicated mechanics on top of that and It's nice to have burst window where I throw all my skills at once, it's badass and I like that after that things are simpler and so I don't have to shift my focus that much from other tank responsibilites.

Now, I know this is strictly subjective but believe me when I say it - you have more sprout tanks in game now thanks to SE making tanks simpler and more straight foward. You may not like it - but that's a fact.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are a best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

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If carbon copy does not mean what it actually means, then I believe describing it as overstatement is reasonable.

I still don't think their core gameplay is similar though. Points already made in my reply you quoted. However, such matter is subjective and I respect your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

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you're right. People here are want to either argue against a view they oppose, or some would like to troll. However I'm not ignoring what makes WAR and DRK different.
Yes, WAR is GCD reliant versus DRK's many many oGCDs. That much is true. But my personal take is this: WAR is a more complete in concept job than DRK is.

DRK having salted earth is not a boon, nor a bust, but to say "well WAR doesn't have one" is not a merit for or against either. WAR also can't shield a single party member, like DRK/PLD(/GNB if you HoS with the Brutal Shell buff) can.
WAR's personal shield is instead a personal (or ally targeting) heal, that shares a recast with their short CD mitigation, Raw Int. TBN has a fail state, in such that there's a chance for the shield to break and you are just down 3k mana. WAR with Nascent? the most you will risk is an overheal, but you don't lose out on any resources, nor any damage, as nascent doesn't have a fail state in how it functions.
Comparing Upheaval, an oGCD, to DRK's gauge spenders is an erroneous comparison to make IMO. It's not fair to compare unless you were to say "WAR has both a 20 gauge spender and a 50 gauge spender, whereas DRK only has 50 gauge spenders." Because in this case, all that's asked of infuriate is to use it on cooldown, and in IR windows. The closest analogue DRK has IMO would be Edge of Shadow, and it's my own personal take that EoS is just Upheaval + Storms Eye, to make up for DRK only having 3 GCD weaponskills that aren't cost-reliant.
The augment to IR/Decimate from Infuriate is a secondary effect. Baseline it generates 50 gauge for a WAR to use. There is no fail state, there is no conditional, there is no catch, all it is is just press a button, get resource. DRK has that in TBN (which has the proc that has a chance to not activate if TBN doesn't break), and Blood Weapon, which has been proven time and again to be a faulty skill that has a shorter duration than Del/IR, and doesn't account for dungeon trash pulls and DRK's AoE being classified as spells. As well, WAR's infuriate has the hastened recast thing going for it that pushes more usage of fell cleave/inner chaos. There is no such comparison on DRK, nor any tank, and as best as i recall no other job at all since they removed quickened aetherflow from SCH.
WAR's also got Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, which the former is what i'd compare abyssal drain to; the latter I cant think of anything DRK would have like it, nor any tank frankly.

The list *does* go on. But the point is there are a lot of areas in DRK's kit that are clunky and make no sense when held up to scrutiny against it's peers, and cherry picking parts of or pieces of skills instead of looking at the entire kit is... not disingenuous because that's too strong an implication, but something along those lines? i don't know.
The best comparison for "well this skill is also kinda meh" i'd levee is Camouflage, but at least it has a 10% mitigation to hold it up with the parry % it offers.
GNB's resource button, Bloodfest, is just a one and done as well. No quirky timings, just press it and 2 cartridges.
PLD generates gauge from autos, so it's consistent but also not all that interactive. Plus with a double nerf (imo) to cover, really all a PLD uses it's gauge for would be shelltron, and intervention.
I'd say to end, comparing blood weapon to brotherhood is, again, an erroneous comparison to make. Brotherhood interacts with the party, and the party can interact with the MNK while it's active; there is nothing to Blood Weapon like that. It doesn't benefit anyone but the DRK.
But ultimately I'd say yes. Carbon copy is a strong word, and given my personal opinion it's also not a fitting word. To me, DRK is a pale imitation of WAR. It has tried to be its own thing, but as the game evolved the developers have been left with nothing else than to make a DRK that's the state that it is now: a clunky mess of disjointed abilities that try to be like it's peers, but fails, and the one saving grace it has in TBN is also the only skill that can affect the job's damage that has a failstate that only affects itself. (And by that i mean: if a boss goes untargetable right after you pop TBN, then it's everyone that's losing out, not just the DRK.)

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

Getting new players to try tanking is good, problem is that if you get sprout tanks in exchange of losing veterans, you end having the same number of tanks as before but with crappier players. Lately im noticing that most tanks on duties are quite mediocre at best compared to the previous expansions. Before you had the bad tank from time to time but lately im getting lots of "whats cds?" or "only pull 1 group" tanks as well. And it happens with healers sometimes too where they either overheal like crazy, let people die because they dps too much or that they stare the bars doing nothing until the HP goes down without doing any dps at all despite having lots of downtime. Plus you rely on the new players not leaving the roles to play as dps

Before tanks and healers quickly learned to play and when entering Heavensward content they were at least generally "decent", now we can get tanks and healers that can barely know which buttons to press just before entering Shadowbringers despite being almost braindead to tank and heal as long as people dont screw with the (usually basic and recycled) mechanics

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

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WAR and DRK have exactly the same GCD gameplay with minimal diferences, both jobs spend most of the time using 1 combo waiting to FC/BS break the monotomy, both jobs have the same gauge atached on it working the same with the sole diference that WAR have more options on (not anymore on Enwalker btw with upheaval being the only diference on single target) and both work on the same 90s window for it with the same execution with Inner Delirium and both keep the same kind of damage debuff with WAR being active on his management and DRK well exist bcs they have to pretend that Darkside is usefull.

Since that makes basically the core of both jobs they are clones, on top of that WAR generates more fell cleaves with infuriate and DRK have a bunch of oGCD he throw ultra compresed every 60s bcs raid buffs, DRK spend around 10-15s doing that and then is 45s of simplified WAR gameplay loop again and again and again that's why they are called clones, bcs DRK spend more time mimic WAR gameplay that doing something diferent.

About the term "clone" is precise apart clones even in RL have never been 100% copys of each other since experiences and other stuff are involved so it's a precise term to use on DRK-WAR situation something that i see it's going to be more reinforced on EW due all the data showed for now, basically WAR and DRK are like this 2:

https://pm1.narvii.com/6207/7cd8b446...46d7d63_hq.jpg

They have diferent armor painting and some attachments and diferent experiences and ranks but they are clones, they have the same body and same face and the same training and home, in other words the same base where they have worked on, clones with some diferences and WAR and DRK are basially the only jobs that are in this unnecesary specially when they use to be nothing alike.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

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On tank you do 1-2-3 basic combo. On Samurai you do 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-3. It's just pushing same buttons in GCD, no matter if you have 3 of them or 6, it's just "button", 2,5 seconds, "button", 2,5 seconds, "button".

You squeez Shinten or Shoha between burst window same as DRK squeezes Bloodsplitter (equivalent of Shinten as gauge spender) and you squeezes Edge of Shadow if you can (equivalent of Shoha if your meditation stacks are 3).

On basic most jobs works the same:

1. Opening, tons of buttons to press, all OGCDs, build gauges, spend everything.
2. Downtime- basic combo + using spenders where you know you can so you have resources back on your big burst window and don't overcap gauge/mana/meditation/whatever-name-of-yet-another-gauge-is
3. Big Burst window - repeat no 1. as much as possible.

Rise, repeat.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

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Again, these are all matter of perspectives. I could say your comparisons are erroneous too, but I'm not here to prove you wrong. I genuinely don't think there are right and wrong on such subjective matters. These comparisons mean different things in different perspectives. I failed to picture DRK and WAR anything similar even when I tried to compare them in your way. Anyway, you have your opinion and I respect that. I'm only sorry you're not enjoying the job you love.I hope the points you made and the threads you started one day get the attention they deserve.

My reply was only meant for the definition of the word, and certain self entitlement "veterans"

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Originally Posted by shao32

WAR and DRK have exactly the same GCD gameplay with minimal diferences, both jobs spend most of the time using 1 combo waiting to FC/BS break the monotomy, both jobs have the same gauge atached on it working the same with the sole diference that WAR have more options on (not anymore on Enwalker btw with upheaval being the only diference on single target) and both work on the same 90s window for it with the same execution with Inner Delirium and both keep the same kind of damage debuff with WAR being active on his management and DRK well exist bcs they have to pretend that Darkside is usefull.

Since that makes basically the core of both jobs they are clones, on top of that WAR generates more fell cleaves with infuriate and DRK have a bunch of oGCD he throw ultra compresed every 60s bcs raid buffs, DRK spend around 10-15s doing that and then is 45s of simplified WAR gameplay loop again and again and again that's why they are called clones, bcs DRK spend more time mimic WAR gameplay that doing something diferent.

About the term "clone" is precise apart clones even in RL have never been 100% copys of each other since experiences and other stuff are involved so it's a precise term to use on DRK-WAR situation something that i see it's going to be more reinforced on EW due all the data showed for now, basically WAR and DRK are like this 2:

https://pm1.narvii.com/6207/7cd8b446...46d7d63_hq.jpg

They have diferent armor painting and some attachments and diferent experiences and ranks but they are clones, they have the same body and same face and the same training and home, in other words the same base where they have worked on, clones with some diferences and WAR and DRK are basially the only jobs that are in this unnecesary specially when they use to be nothing alike.

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Oh my gosh, those soldiers serving the armies wear the same clothes, same mask, same training, and same place of origin. Could it be cloning technologies have always been within our grasp since the founding of military system?

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Originally Posted by Benn

On tank you do 1-2-3 basic combo. On Samurai you do 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-3. It's just pushing same buttons in GCD, no matter if you have 3 of them or 6, it's just "button", 2,5 seconds, "button", 2,5 seconds, "button".

You squeez Shinten or Shoha between burst window same as DRK squeezes Bloodsplitter (equivalent of Shinten as gauge spender) and you squeezes Edge of Shadow if you can (equivalent of Shoha if your meditation stacks are 3).

On basic most jobs works the same:

1. Opening, tons of buttons to press, all OGCDs, build gauges, spend everything.
2. Downtime- basic combo + using spenders where you know you can so you have resources back on your big burst window and don't overcap gauge/mana/meditation/whatever-name-of-yet-another-gauge-is
3. Big Burst window - repeat no 1. as much as possible.

Rise, repeat.

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All pc games are the same since you have to turn your pc on and press buttons if we follow that logic...

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

All pc games are the same since you have to turn your pc on and press buttons if we follow that logic...

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That's pure example of "Straw Man Fallacy", which means you couldn't counter my argument so you went for "exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making"

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Originally Posted by shao32

... Star Wars clones comparison ...

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Using the clone troopers from the Star Wars fictional universe isn't a very good comparison or analogy here.
Clones by definition are organisms that were propagated from the same genetic parent/source and are genetically identical, as the clone troopers are.
For DRK to fit the concept of being a clone of WAR, concept since clone/cloning technically has to do with biology, they would have had to do a direct copy and pasting of the code for the WAR job and then name that exact copy DRK; so therefore all the same abilities, game-play loops, etc. Everything would be an exact duplicate, not just have noticeable similarities in some aspects.

The differences that are highlighted in your post between different clone troopers is more akin to different WAR players being at different levels, having different gear and the human players behind the WAR characters having different experience levels and different play-styles and strategies.
So one could argue that all the WARs in the game are clones, seeing as how they are at the most foundational level exactly the same, but saying DRK is a clone of WAR is not factual.

The way that people are using the term "clone", as well as the term "carbon copy", is in a vernacular manner which leans heavily into casual speak's penchant for the hyperbolic, such as in commonly used phrases like "I had the worst day today". Is it literally and factually the "worst" day ever, or even in the speakers lifetime? Very likely not, but it is this vernacular use of hyperbolic and non-literal meaning to this and such words which are a vehicle to convey the speakers feelings on the level of or severity of what they are speaking about.
So when someone says that DRK is a clone or carbon copy of WAR, they are leveraging the use of hyperbole to emphasize what they feel is the severity of how similar the two jobs are, basically trying to convey that they feel that the jobs are "so similar they might as well be clones".

These linguistic flourishes are incredibly common, maybe even to the point of being more common than the definitive and literal usage of words, that seeing or hearing them being used is understandable; however, at the same time they are based in hyperbole and purposefully so.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

clone definition and comon usage

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And here i feel is where language diferences rock in, im not familiar if the english term of "clon" is used exclusively as you say as the organism definition witch is the same overhere but here is used too as a technological process of create a hardware/software to work the same way like another system wich can fit in to a great degree on the definition of what happen to DRK and current situation considering the whole blackblood sytem and the GCD pace of DRK rework in SHB and thats go to the star wars reference i tried to make, considering they operate exactly the same most of the time and have small windows or moments to show some diferences apart of they animations is where i consider the clone army could have been a nice comparison aka same base but since they are still individuals they are not exactly the same at the end but they have huge similarities based bcs they are born as clones.
That's way i never consider the term clon an hyperbole and was a perfect way to define the current problem betwen both jobs in a technological matter since DRK rework suffered cloning from WAR desing systems to a certain point but i understand it's don't necessarily have the same meaning strenght overthere, i will remember it.

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Originally Posted by Benn

That's pure example of "Straw Man Fallacy", which means you couldn't counter my argument so you went for "exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making"

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Thanks for proving my point. To even insinuate that tanks and healer damage rotations are as complex as a dps job is only justificable if you go the strawman route and is as ridiculous a my sarcastic remark. You should read your own quotes first before mentioning others.

Of course most jobs depend on pressing buttons on a certain order, thats the basic of the game. The only jobs that doesnt do that on their dps rotation are the healers because they literally have a 1 button rotation

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Thanks for proving my point. To even insinuate that tanks and healer damage rotations are as complex as a dps job is only justificable if you go the strawman route and is as ridiculous a my sarcastic remark. You should read your own quotes first before mentioning others

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Eh, Straw Man Fallacy again. I never even suggested that tanks are as "complex" as DPS (complex is very subjective as I think they are straight foward and not really complex at all). I answered to what you have said and I quote:

"spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again"


Which is as Samurai is played. Spam normal combo, refresh buffs (kasha, yukikaze etc.), hog resources for the burst window (Kenki, meditation) and then you throw everything then go back to base combo and start again. That's how most jobs play. If by complex you mean that DPS have more buttons to press, then yes - you can call them more complex. But what you said is not complex mechanic, it's base mechanic of many jobs.


And if you want to go "No, you" route after that then please don't since I see that we have to agree to disagree and move on.

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Originally Posted by Benn

Eh, Straw Man Fallacy again. I never even suggested that tanks are as "complex" as DPS (complex is very subjective as I think they are straight foward and not really complex at all). I answered to what you have said and I quote:

"spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again"


Which is as Samurai is played. Spam normal combo, refresh buffs (kasha, yukikaze etc.), hog resources for the burst window (Kenki, meditation) and then you throw everything then go back to base combo and start again. That's how most jobs play.


And if you want to go "No, you" route after that then please don't since I see that we have to agree to disagree and move on.

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If you compare a job with 3 different combos and almost every skill oriented to deal damage and/or give resources to give so against a job with a single combo and far less combat options sorry but either you are trolling or you have trouble counting.

"Samurai is played. Spam normal combo, refresh buffs (kasha, yukikaze etc.), hog resources for the burst window (Kenki, meditation) and then you throw everything then go back to base combo and start again. That's how most jobs play." Thats the perfect example of a strawman, because you are stating the obvious to a exagerated level, This is getting quite embarrasing... for you, seems you read the strawman definition on wikipedia and took a liking to it....

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Originally Posted by shao32

snip

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I wasn't saying that clone only refers to biological organisms, although it's predominant definition does, the word or term clone or cloning has expanded in usage beyond solely biological constraints and is now often used interchangeably with the word copy, especially when you are creating an exact duplicate of something. But it's etymology and therefore the foundation of it's definition which provides the context to then understand its more derivative usages is from biology, specifically coming from the Greek word klon which means "twig", "shoot", etc where the plant physiologist Herbert J. Webber came up with the term to describe the process of plant propagation through taking cuttings from a parent plant and then growing that cutting into a full blown new plant that is an exact genetic copy of the parent.
The point being that no matter what the word clone is being used to describe, due to it's origin it contextually defines the clone as being made from the exact same foundational building blocks as the parent from which it was cloned, genetic material in the case of a biological lifeform or code in the case of software. Because DRK is not literally a direct copy of WAR at a code level, it isn't literally a clone of WAR; therefore the usage of the word clone as it is being used here in the WAR/DRK comparison in question, it is being used in a hyperbolic manner like I described.
In the end it is really a semantics argument, but one that I bring up because people are defending the semantics of their non-literal, hyperbolic usage as if it weren't such. Mainly I just want people to think more on the nuances of the words and language they are using to communicate because far too often they get bent or twisted in a way that causes confusion or conflict and if the internet could use more of anything, it would be clear and concise communication.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

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If all this is a matter of perspectives then please try understanding our stand point.

I get that you and other newcomers like Benn only know the current state of the game. Every job having some kind of gauge, usually 1-2 ST combos, 1-2 buffs to maintain, and usually a 60s and/or 90s burst rotation. For you, that's the norm!
But it wasn't always like this, and our side comes from previous expansions. We have seen what has been, what was possible, and where issues lied back then, maybe even what jobs or roles were intended to be (successful or not). We can see the holes that are left after the "reworks".

Unfortunately, from what I've read in your last posts, it seems you are rather ignorant towards what you call "veterans" or "the seniority", devaluating their points, experience, and insights simply as "opinions" and "overstatements". But more than often they are results of observations and built up on simple facts - even if it just drawing comparison between each action.
E.g. in my answer to your post just a few hours ago, I've shown that more than 50% of DRKs actions are copy and paste versions from WARs actions, even after eliminating role actions.

In your respond to WhyAmIHere you stated that DRK doesn't have any 20 gauge cost actions, and is more oGCD-heavy than WAR. You try to underline your argument with imho questionable comparisons; e.g. you claim that the gauge spenders that spend 50% of their max gauge are similar to other actions that also cost 50% of their gauge. While doing so, you ignore the way of accumulation of these gauges, and how they are spend otherwise – including completely different mechanics of those jobs. E.g. GNB generates "50% of their gauge" every time they finish a combo, and "100%" when using Bloodfest; NINs Mug generates 40%, their combo's 5/GCD, and later 10 on combo finishers. GNB also spends their gauge on a unique ST combo; NIN on oGCDs only, one of them has a long and unusual CD for their burst windows and so on. Additionally, Upheaval and Onslaught will lose their cost soon, which makes this argument invalid, and just confirms that we are going towards the homogenised/clone direction.

You also argue that DRK has stuff WAR does not; again while being ignorant of how much those points weight. Those exact points you've listed there, actually counter your argument that DRK is unique! Why? Salted Earth was a characteristic action for DRK since the jobs release, but has been nerfed to the ground (no pun intended): duration reduced, CD doubled, potencies nerfed; TBN has lost its synergy with the kit while also becoming riskier to use because if not broken the potency lost is at least twice as much as it used to; and Blood Weapon used to give a haste buff (unique for tanks), but has been reduced into an inferior Infuriate. These are prime examples of what has DRK made less unique than before.

I am sorry if this comes off as offensive, but you are doing pretty much the same thing to others by calling them entitled for being long time players, just because they are using the term "carbon copy (of WAR)" for DRK. If carbon copy is a strong word, then so are "long player entitlement" and "sense of superiority", as well as "seniority" or "veteran". When you say, you'd understand their arguments and points, and wouldn't want to prove them wrong, in the next sentence you do exactly that and try to devaluate those statements.

"Clone" is very much accurate! And even when shao32's comparison with clone troopers is a little wonky, they are an excellent example for the "ShB DRK=WAR clone" debate. While they look different on the outside (purple/edgy vs. reddish/brute), and bear different arms (Greatsword vs. Axe), while clearly part of the same role (military/tank), at the core they are the same (clone, identical face, same education, body build). Their difference is their personality, one is edgy and uses many secondary weapons (oGCDs), while the other is more brute, relying on a simple weapon with guaranteed fire power (less oGCDs, crit-DH). But in the end, they only have access to similar equipment, and have to operate as commanded. Meanwhile, PLD and GNB are enjoying their life knowing they are not clones with rapid growth modifications, albeit GNB is rather young, but both have access to unique weaponry… for now, at least.

What tanks are missing is a haste tank, more diversity in effects and aesthetics, as well as further increasing the synergy within all tank jobs toolkits. And is there any better place to start than the job that used to have all of these?

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

devaluating their points, experience, and insights

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Where did it come from? what??

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But more than often they are results of observations and built up on simple fact

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What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

If you really can point out those differences from my examples in my reply towards others, then my point was made. Your comparisons are questionable to me too, though. The way I see it. The more examples you give me, the more I fail to see the similarities. In you response,

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you ignore the way of accumulation of these gauges, and how they are spend otherwise – including completely different mechanics of those jobs. E.g. GNB generates "50% of their gauge" every time they finish a combo, and "100%" when using Bloodfest; NINs Mug generates 40%, their combo's 5/GCD, and later 10 on combo finishers. GNB also spends their gauge on a unique ST combo; NIN on oGCDs only, one of them has a long and unusual CD for their burst windows and so on.

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Good, you noticed the difference. Let's remove those factors so we can complain they are the same, because that's what you do. Like DRK use both resources, MP and Blood Gauge. Blood Weapon generates both. Carve and Split gives MP resource. Delirium give tiny MP resource. They might not look good, but they exist

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Infuritate is also on the charge system and gets its CD reduced after every beast gauge weaponskill. Blood Weapon's "unique" trait is its (up to) 3k MP you get from it for 1 Edge or Flood vs Infuriate's trait to overwrite Fell Cleave with Inner Chaos (and aoe counterpart)

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like what are you doing? You already pointed out the difference. How are you going to convince me they are the same?
Using comparisons like this only led me to a conclusion that every job is the same. You deal damage. You gain resources. You spend them. They are all the same why don't you play other games.

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Delirium and IR are going to operate even MORE similar than before! SE confirmed that both will give 3 stacks of free beast and blood gauge weaponskills

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Afaik, Delirium won't have a finisher like WAR is going to have. still no DH/CRT tied to it. Gearing still different (maybe)

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You also argue that DRK has stuff WAR does not; again while being ignorant of how much those points weight. Those exact points you've listed there, actually counter your argument that DRK is unique! Why? Salted Earth was a characteristic action for DRK since the jobs release

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Yes, it's nerfed. It's not as glorious as what it used to be.... So what? It being nerfed does not make DRK a clone because WAR doesn't even have this. That's my point. That's why I said I'm not countering anyone's argument. You and me are obviously thinking in parallel
My reply was meant to point out the word that has been misused.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Blood Weapon is also an inferior Infuriate with high risk thx to its low duration and sensitivity to high ping, which makes BW for many "offshore" peeps unrealiable.

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Then it's not Infuriate. Infuriate does not last 10 seconds. The resource Infuriate generates are fixed at 50, while Blood Weapon generate resources based on how many Weaponskills you land. In my perspective, there's no need for me to explain the differences between DRK and WAR because your reply already pointed out the differences. If 1 skill is only similar in some way, then these tiny differences add up in a kit. They are just different. That's why I said I'm not here to argue. I already know we see things differently. I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones, but that does not mean I don't support the desire to demand changes for DRK. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time.

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I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

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I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

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and here's the full context of the quote you were responding to https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5672560

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I apologize for the bluntness but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be.. you've knows DRK for around 2 months or so and havnt even reached maxed level within the game..

DRK shouldn't be playing the way it currently plays it shouldn't be a carbon copy of the WAR class. It should play completely different from any other tank.. just as all the other tanks should play different then each other.

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

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havent caught up but something that irks me to no end is Dark Arts. HW and SB it was an oGCD you'd use to augment your next action. What irks me about it is that players complained that it was too spammy, and instead of fixing it they just axed the whole thing entirely.

SAM doesn't complain about having to use Kaiten before Iaijutsu, because outside of Iaijutsu there's no real reason as far as I know to use it unless you just wanna *really* empower your next hit. To me it's more focused and narrow in scope, and not a button to press needlessly as you've other gauge spenders to use.

GNB and continuation. it's an oGCD used only after Gnashing Fang and those combos, so again it's more focused and narrow in it's scope. Come Endwalker, all that's changing to it from the job action video is Burst Strike is getting a combo into it.

What's my point? Instead of putting in any real work to make DRK work with it's old kit and one of it's most complained about abilities, they put that work into designing a similar gimmick for other jobs and just left DRK to become gutted, and filled in the void with a job that at that time DRK players brought up ceaselessly: WAR.
It's a shame.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Again, these are all matter of perspectives. I could say your comparisons are erroneous too, but I'm not here to prove you wrong. I genuinely don't think there are right and wrong on such subjective matters. These comparisons mean different things in different perspectives. I failed to picture DRK and WAR anything similar even when I tried to compare them in your way. Anyway, you have your opinion and I respect that. I'm only sorry you're not enjoying the job you love.I hope the points you made and the threads you started one day get the attention they deserve.

My reply was only meant for the definition of the word, and certain self entitlement "veterans"

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Oh yeah no, that's entirely fair. Lord knows i've been trying to make my voice heard since back in Stormblood with the posts/threads I've made here. Hell i remember complaining about Shadow Wall being needlessly inferior to Vengeance/Sentinel for no good reason before 4.4(?) patch. Then there's Sole Survivor being jank, and if memory serves got the "will get effect even if condition not met" around the same time as Excog got it's own "will trigger at end of duration regardless." (As an aside: funny that RPR is going to be getting a skill akin to sole survivor... makes ya think)

I'm sorry I'm not enjoying DRK as I used to as well. Sure, it functions, but that's a terrible metric for fun IMO. I could drive a beaten up car that barely works, but as long as it gets from A to B screw modern creature comforts like working windows, air conditioning, radio, etc.

At this point, I think they don't know what to do with Living Dead or how to differentiate the Invuln from the other tanks. Since it's been regurgitated and eaten since HW, we might as well leave it out for now and focus on what changes we can make to decouple DRK from being WAR lite. Our current actions are ok, but we need to restructure DRK.

For one, I think they might've designed themselves into a corner with DRK. The way they fixed the gauge in Shadowbringers was namely "Just add some WAR", but this makes it difficult to address since it stems directly from the Gauge. A thought came to mind as I was writing this: How can we make it engaging if we remove the Gauge itself for a moment? Somebody mentioned gauge being used as magic when I was asking about how to decouple DRK from WAR - and this means we'll need actions that add some of the things we missed. But first, decoupling from WAR.

1) Make Bloodspiller and Quietus share a 30s CD. Potencies stay the same and does not require Blood Gauge to execute. This keeps the flow smooth instead of having to feel like the gauge is holding you back the whole time like WAR.

2) Revert Delirium to a Combo Action. Same Potency as Souleater. Restores 1000 MP. Adds 10 to Blood Gauge.

Now we have to think about this. Where does that last 600 Potency go? It goes into this action:

Dark Scourge - Lv 78 Unlock, GCD. Deals 400 potency upfront, DoT for 45s. Potency 40. CD 60s. Does not break combo.

It brings back the action from HW - one of the cooler animations imo. But even though it's nostalgia, this would give DRK a slight edge while also giving it something that can help it stand out a bit more. Now as for the 1000 MP on this Delirium, I feel like adding a choice between Blood and MP to set up for Burst phases(whether you need it quickly or you don't) can help give DRK more choices rather than just be 1-2-3. It may make Delirium more useful since it's restoring two things albeit one gives less Blood, but I think that can be left to figure out at high-end which would be best from a development standpoint.

With that out of the way, we need to consider Blood Gauge spending. We have Living Shadow only for this since we took off the requirement for Bloodspiller and Quietus usage. As far as Abyssal Drain goes, it doesn't feel that great and only restores a small amount of HP, even on big groups due to damage output from packs. Removing the CD from Abyssal Drain and replacing it with 20 Blood Gauge requirement could make AoE feel better as well as help DRK give the feel of self-sustain that it used to on damaging actions.

Then there's the new move in the Job Trailer we saw - the one that makes a huge wave of darkness. I'm not sure how much it'd do, but I'd make it tie to the Blood Gauge with the changes made here. One problem I thought about was whether this would make the job too much of the same thing or something. Extra input on this would help me understand flaws and the like.

Edit: Looking back on it and also reading some of the post at the top of this page, it made me think back and realize that having the second combo makes it similar to WAR - but for different reasons given DRK has two resources it needs to keep up(MP and Blood Gauge), not one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

havent caught up but something that irks me to no end is Dark Arts. HW and SB it was an oGCD you'd use to augment your next action. What irks me about it is that players complained that it was too spammy, and instead of fixing it they just axed the whole thing entirely.

SAM doesn't complain about having to use Kaiten before Iaijutsu, because outside of Iaijutsu there's no real reason as far as I know to use it unless you just wanna *really* empower your next hit. To me it's more focused and narrow in scope, and not a button to press needlessly as you've other gauge spenders to use.

GNB and continuation. it's an oGCD used only after Gnashing Fang and those combos, so again it's more focused and narrow in it's scope. Come Endwalker, all that's changing to it from the job action video is Burst Strike is getting a combo into it.

What's my point? Instead of putting in any real work to make DRK work with it's old kit and one of it's most complained about abilities, they put that work into designing a similar gimmick for other jobs and just left DRK to become gutted, and filled in the void with a job that at that time DRK players brought up ceaselessly: WAR.
It's a shame.

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I actually want to rebuttal that thought about Dark Arts. The problem in Stormblood was that there were TOO MANY applications to which Dark Arts could be applied. SAM's design intends on Kaiten to be used with Iaijutsu instead of your GCDs or oGCDs. DRK had that problem, and it was design issue that offput a lot of people because of how you were repeatedly spamming the same button every oGCD you had if you had MP to spare. In general, I think that there is such as thing as too much APM in terms of gameplay flow if said button is used every GCD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

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I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

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The problem is, I don't think they are anyway similar. Whenever I doing Savage content, I prefer to play as GNB, PLD and WAR. I did try running contents as DRK, but I just didn't like the play style. I still don't. I still join PF as DRK from time to time for the sake of learning all jobs within the role of tank. However, whenever I want to truly enjoy tanking, I will never play DRK because I don't want to manage both Blood Gauge and MP. From my experience alone DRK and WAR are nothing similar.

As for the food comparison.. well. For give my lack of imagination and I think my examples will be silly, but to me DRK is like roasted Turkey Sandwich while WAR is like pan-fried Meatball Sandwich. They are all sandwiches with meat.The similarity ends there
I don't agree they are similar nor do they play like clones, but that doesn't not mean I'm against your demand for changes. Just because I disagree with you at certain point doesn't mean I'm dismissing the need for change. The reason I ask for DRK changes are not because it's similar to WAR, but the lack of changes in the incoming EW expac compared to other tanks. I don't think we're necessarily at odd here. We both want the same thing. We just have different reasons.

Though it seems some people here tend to make enemy out of me by calling me ignorant. Well, I can simply adapt to other jobs. DRK can burn now for all I care. This kind of attitude surely helps.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Where did it come from?

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Answer:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

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I can agree that the original post was excessive, but only so far to make their point clear. Diction of choice. Still doesn't mean their arguement that DRK is based on 4.2 Warrior... - no, a simplified version of that - is invalid, because it is.

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What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

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My grind here is that you don't just dismiss Baxel's complaint as invalid because of "seniority", you continue to do so in response to WhyAmIHere. I feel like because 1 person triggered you by using an excessive term, and you started to disregard everyone points that agreed with Baxel's statement. But it doesn't matter because you...

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

[...]will never agree DRK and WAR are clones

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I am calling you ignorant because I don't see you trying to understand what DRK used to be or originally should've been. You could watch VODs or read through old threads, action history etc. I just don't you making that effort, but I see you calling others entitled. Is that really any better? (And you don't have to be nice, I don't care whether you yell out insults or lull like some politican, speak your mind, and I'll do the same.)

It seems to me that by defending the tiniest differences between Delirium vs. Inner Release, gauge accumulation and spending, Blood Weapon vs. Infuriate, you don't really "support the desire to demand changes". Let me ask you this tho: If Delirium and Inner Release are so different, is there another ability in the game that lets you hit 5 GCD gauge spenders over 10s, on the same CD of 90s? Ofc not!
Is there any other job in the game that generates exactly 20 gauge after using their aoe? No, there isn't!
There are more actions that increase your gauge by 50, but the most klunky and wonky one out there is Blood Weapon! And it will most likely stay the way it is...
There is no job in the melee DPS section that plays like the other, there is no job in the physical ranged DPS faction that plays like the other, the same goes for caster DPS.
There are some actions that resemble each other, but every job gameplay is entirely individual.

For you, those small differences seem to be enough for DRK to be a unique job. I don't know if you have ever played WAR and seen the similarities. There are too many gameplay-wise, and too meagre the differences.
You like ShB DRK? Fine!
Does that change the fact that its based on a simplified 4.2 WAR sprinkled with wonky magic shenanigans? No!
We - who are "stuck in nostalgia" - are just tired to repeat ourselves that DRK is a WAR clone, just be called out by some peep - that played this for 2 months, and WAR for like just 5 min - this wouldn't be true.
Bro, it is true; there is a reason why there are so many DRK threads even before the launch of Shadowbringers, once the media tour was over.
We have been fighting this fight for more than 3 years now, and we exhaustingly frustrated that after all this, what SE came up with, was taking the 5.0 base and "enhance" it. Oh, yeah, f*ckin great, getting 1 or 2 actions AFTER level 80.
Also placing Salted Earth beneath us AFTER fixing ground targeting control? Yeah, f*ckin great again.
I am tired, so so tired to be hit by SE with so much incompetency, it's unbelieveable. But here we are, and then we are getting told it ain't so bad, every tank is unique... I can't-