DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

So we should let "subpar" dps be, while the players who actually try to do their jobs will have to do even more dps so that the group don't hit the enrage? As I said before, I don't feel like letting people in ignorance is showing them kindness.

There is no shaming if they see the parse for themselves. And it would avoid the situation that Bourne_Endeavor spoke of before this one :

Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" as you like to say it while the bad one is putting pressure on everyone while dragging the fight for him and for the other?

But how can you reason people like that without a parser? I don't think you can. Or at least, not as long as the ToS will continue to block you from stating the truth.

In my opinion, bad players aren't the victims. The victims are actually everyone who has to deal with them.


Plus, even though "pressure" did happen at the start of the thread, it finally quiet down, and now people have really civile discussion. I really don't think that people are fragile enough to be hurt by that, and I like to think that they are also smart enough to read after the few firsts pages before making their own opinion on the topic.

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I'm just saying it's wrong to call them garbage becasue we all aren't on the same page when it comes to progression. And since you've mentioned parsers, not everyone has access to them. I don't. But I would assume many of us in the same boat wanna be better today than we were yesterday, squeezing in as many buffs and damage per CD as we can because that's the fun of the game. Or keeping party members alive as much as we can, while without parsers so we can't discriminate. Anyway parsers are another discussion.

As for Bourne's anecdote, jerks with or without parsers are real and nobody should feel like a victim. You can stay knocked down and be a victim of your circumstance, or you brush it off and get back up. Your choice. Anyway, getting on the game and off the PC. Thank you for the mature discussion. Have a good day, everyone.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

Calling someone not making the cut as garbage is not and should never be acceptable. He/she just doesn't make the cut for savage. That's it. Let's not just place standards on performance but behavior as well towards other players, and keep this community respectful. Also keep our expectations realistic and save ourselves the disappointment.

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I agree with this. No one should be called garbage based on their performance in a video game, it's silly. The difference is that there are people in this thread who are arguing that any cretique of performance is inherently disrespectful. These two things are not the same.

If I joined a party and there was a real underperformer there and I explained to them what they were doing incorrectly that was holding us back from clearing (be it mech or dps related) I am not a bad person to do that. If I walked into the party and called them trash clearly I would be an asshole.

These two things are being lumped together and one group of people is defending one (the reasonable cretique) while another group is attacking another (calling people trash based on performance) so in essense each group is arguing with no one.

Further issue comes from people not being able to accept the idea that hitting 4k dps in current 360/370 gear (especially in a more dps-focused job) is objectively subpar.

Let's look at equivalency for a moment. A party with one dps that does 4k might be fine in earlier Savage turns but if you've get everyone in the party performing at that level you simply don't beat enrage. This means that, objectively, dping 4k dps is not enough in the current tier if you don't want to burden your party with picking up your slack.

From there it isn't a stretch to understand carrying this idea of party responsibility into more casual content and feeling a bit slighted when your teammates are clearly not trying as hard as you are. As someone who tries their hardest all the time I don't feel okay seeing a healer stand still for 4 gcds between heals because they are placing a burden on the rest of the party to do the damage those 4 lost attacks would have done.

I hope this gives you some insight into some of the conversation that's been going on.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

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All you've contributed is something for me to conplain about and laugh at with others on discord. Thanks I guess? Stay salty and memeable!

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If I joined a party and there was a real underperformer there and I explained to them what they were doing incorrectly that was holding us back from clearing (be it mech or dps related) I am not a bad person to do that. If I walked into the party and called them trash clearly I would be an asshole.

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The reason why "garbage tier" exists is specifically because there are those people that are bad, underperform, hurt the entire party, force the other to have to pick up their slack all while refusing to better themselves and claiming they are good and everyone else has a problem, any constructive criticism and pointers are taken offensively as if the other person insulted your mother.

Underperforming in itself is fine, as i've stated before, there are very few players that can simply pop in a brand new raid they've never done before and still achieve above average performance, and yes, this does happen, some people are capable of this. The majority are not.

The issue here isn't with underperforming players that wish to learn and take advice to their rotation and tips to better themselves, the issue here is with those who claim they are good, are under the average, refuse to better themselves. That is why the term "garbage tier" exists.

It is in no way meant for the players who are simply bad but wish to better themselves.

I find it shameful to even consider a person trying to improve as "garbage tier." However, a poor performer in a difficult raid refusing to improve, that is garbage tier material.

4k+ is fine but it has to depend on fight and the job.
Though 4k and under is low however as a dps.

Like a job such as samurai and black mage should try to never be around 4k, more so if they didn't die. I think about the only fight that would make you sit around 4k+ as those two jobs is byakko.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

All you've contributed is something for me to conplain about and laugh at with others on discord. Thanks I guess? Stay salty and memeable!

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Flattered you spend so much time thinking about me. Anytime!

https://i.imgur.com/tF5Hsxq.gif

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I know you don't talk to me... but... many scenarios where dps say someone else is shit/bad/etc, where I, as a tank out dps them. People just got by asuming they do good without proof,while people who do know it, wont even say it, most of the time. I certainly know its a shame a tank out dps a actual dps, but I won't tell them, they will find out at some point and only they can have a reaction to it.

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Well, I wasn't really talking to anyone here, but if you recognize yourself in Bourne's example then it just add further to the point, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Likewise, I share your opinion. What irks me to no end isn't inexperience, but players who absolutely refuse to better themselves yet get upset when everyone else doesn't wish to tolerant it. Many of those same people scream about it "just being a game!" Well, it isn't a fun game when I joined that farm party and basically had to carry all but two people. Although, it certainly made me laugh.

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Yes, and from what I gather, many on this forum share this opinion as well. I mean, it's almost just common sense at this point. If a new player, or even a returning player after many months/years of hiatus, come into the game and is receptive to advice and looking to improve, I think he'll be more often than not getting the useful info, or the help that this player needed, and sometimes even more. Even if they make a lot of mistakes, as long as they learn from it, I'd rather consider them as "learning players" rather than "bad players" as the later would just be stupid.

But the other who are 70 since months, not aiming to improve, to even learn a basic rotation, or not even caring about it, are just being selfish who only look at their personal comfort rather than the play as an actual team. And I think that they are better suited for solo RPG rather than MMORPG when it comes to battle content. Those are the ones that I would call "bad players".

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

I'm just saying it's wrong to call them garbage becasue we all aren't on the same page when it comes to progression. And since you've mentioned parsers, not everyone has access to them. I don't. But I would assume many of us in the same boat wanna be better today than we were yesterday, squeezing in as many buffs and damage per CD as we can because that's the fun of the game. Or keeping party members alive as much as we can, while without parsers so we can't discriminate. Anyway parsers are another discussion.

As for Bourne's anecdote, jerks with or without parsers are real and nobody should feel like a victim. You can stay knocked down and be a victim of your circumstance, or you brush it off and get back up. Your choice. Anyway, getting on the game and off the PC. Thank you for the mature discussion. Have a good day, everyone.

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I think you are still locked on the title of the thread, which is fair, but OP already said that it was a mistake on his part and that there's nothing he could do to edit it, sadly. It would be nice if a CM could change it.

Anyway, have a nice day too :)

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You're 100% wrong- Kaiva is in no way responsible for your actions.

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Wait, what?

What do you mean, "my actions"?

What'd I do?

And I said in the very same post you quoted (that you didn't quote) that it's not the OP's fault that people decided to have a go at each other in this thread. But I, myself, didn't participate in it.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

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Says the person with multiple posts that add nothing except salt and animated gifs to the discussion?

Give it a rest already please? This was an interesting topic for a few pages, now it's just a poisonous wasteland.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Says the person with multiple posts that add nothing except salt and animated gifs to the discussion?

Give it a rest already please? This was an interesting topic for a few pages, now it's just a poisonous wasteland.

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No? If everyone else is allowed to give opinions and act needlessly hostile under poor pretenses then I'm free to say something about it, especially when it involves behaviour directed at another player. I couldn't care less what transpired since or if I'm "ruining" it, my posts don't need to automatically halt any previous discussion.

As for gifs, if someone says something ridiculous I'll respond in kind.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/1359...5591/tenor.gif

Snip!!!

I have read the entirety of the thread and the issue is your wording. Everyone has different perceptions on words that are thrown down on a page and this obviously made some people angry. Hopefully in the future you are more careful with your words. But, kudos for manning up and apologizing. It takes guts to admit fault. This thread will die off soon enough

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Snip!!!

I have read the entirety of the thread and the issue is your wording. Everyone has different perceptions on words that are thrown down on a page and this obviously made some people angry. Hopefully in the future you are more careful with your words. But, kudos for manning up and apologizing. It takes guts to admit fault. This thread will die off soon enough

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This was at he OP....I still don’t know how to properly post using my phone

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

No? If everyone else is allowed to give opinions and act needlessly hostile under poor pretenses then I'm free to say something about it, especially when it involves behaviour directed at another player. I couldn't care less what transpired since or if I'm "ruining" it, my posts don't need to automatically halt any previous discussion.

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And as such, you are literally doing nothing but perpetuating the car crash. There's a time to call it quits and move along, we passed that point a good 20 pages back sadly.

*edit* and no, I'm pointing at you because the others at least contributed positively to the discussion at hand before rather daftly allowing themselves to get drawn into this mush. My point does stand with them as well though, minus the gifs ofc!

Lets have a nice reset on this discussion please <3

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ve been in just about every parser debate on this forum

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You & Me have a different view on Toxicity

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Toxic people will be toxic

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But only people who parse are "toxic", right?

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

when someone uses it,,,,____>so they can single someone out as a "bad" player, thats where its a problem.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

You did 2300 DPS on DRG in o5s with a single death (9:04) on May 7th (kill time 10:04).

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This "in my opinion" looks like a personal attack comment.

@Whoever was posting meme gifs:

I don't really want to stir the pot, nor am I really wanting to take sides on anything, but... posting meme gifs is really unnecessary and it tends to be very much frowned upon.

Oftentimes when I see stuff like that, I usually roll my eyes. If you can't convey what you mean by simply typing it out, then perhaps you should not be using a forum. Or perhaps you should keep such thoughts in your head instead of dumping a gif in the forum, one that is usually meant to be snippy, snarky, and generally the kind of thing that just fans the flames and gets people ticked off at you.

Then a heated debate/argument/what-not happens, you feign innocence and it really doesn't work. You can't spray gasoline on a house fire and then tell the cops that you didn't start the fire and therefore are not responsible for the damage.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And as such...

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I thought "salty and memeable" already did that, but all right.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

wow

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https://media.giphy.com/media/7GPV80dC4GCNq/giphy.gif

Really?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I can do 12K DPS, but not per second.

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You say this as a joke...

But, I've seen people claim getting numbers close to that for a White Mage in big pulls with holy spam...

At least, for a short time. ;P

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

https://media.giphy.com/media/7GPV80dC4GCNq/giphy.gif

Really?

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Take this from a former moderator from a MMO that had a far worse community than this one. Maeka gave some advice. You doubled down on the asshattery. You keep doing it to everyone in this thread. Perhaps it's time for me to stop dancing, and to be blunt for once.

You are not doing yourself any favors. Your self awareness is quite lacking, it appears you automatically assume the worst of anyone who does anything you perceive as a personal slight even if it was supposed to be advice, and you should probably really, really stop. It's usually a pretty bad omen when you teeter dangerously close to making me look rather critically at you as a person rather than as a simple forum poster.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

This "in my opinion" looks like a personal attack comment.

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Funny, when I looked at it, I saw it as a simple factual statement and/or a demonstration that a lot of people have been parsed and their logs uploaded even if they didn't upload it themselves.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

ok.

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My comment was referring more to their decision not to just directly quote me when the context made it so obvious. Something, something, the terrible sin of passive aggression, something. They haven't been reading closely if they thought my gif usage triggered off the discussion.

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It's usually a pretty bad omen when you teeter dangerously close to making me look rather critically at you as a person rather than as a simple forum poster.

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Oh, dear. I will of course cease posting immediately in case the opinion of someone I don't know and have never talked to decreases further.

When it comes to harder content(Ex,Savage,Ulti), I care about the other 7 members in my group. That being said I try my hardest to make whatever I'm currently running go as smooth as possible. A lot of people don't know how they're doing and coast by without ever really knowing they're under performing, which has lead to some rather uncomfortable situation like the post mentioned about about the Sam/Drg. If a rating or something was implemented at the end of a duty I think it would quell some of those issues. I know everyone would feel a lot better losing to a roll that was equally earn as a group.

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Originally Posted by Gin_Gray

When it comes to harder content(Ex,Savage,Ulti), I care about the other 7 members in my group. That being said I try my hardest to make whatever I'm currently running go as smooth as possible. A lot of people don't know how they're doing and coast by without ever really knowing they're under performing, which has lead to some rather uncomfortable situation like the post mentioned about about the Sam/Drg. If a rating or something was implemented at the end of a duty I think it would quell some of those issues. I know everyone would feel a lot better losing to a roll that was equally earn as a group.

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It's not just that either.

I feel that the harassment towards people under-performing in parties is currently disproportionately nasty towards tank and healer contribution rather than the DPS. And I imagine part of it is because of the view that many see DPS as expendable for various reasons not even related to parsing at all. At the same time, the tanks and healers perpetuating it themselves are likely also doing it precisely because the community is now reaching a point where there's mutual distrust among public parties, and they cannot counter underperforming toxic DPS shifting the blame around without outright admitting that they're parsing themselves.

Being able to see tank and healer contribution towards a fight is very easy. But for DPS, it is ridiculously hard, and accountability is difficult to gauge. People go by enmity meters, but the problem with that is that most top-tier DPS will keep it as low as possible, because not only will they probably want to give the tank some room to switch out of tank stance and into DPS mode safely without worrying about the well being of their teammates, it's also because they know they will do so much damage that they will freaking die if they don't mitigate their enmity properly. And nothing tanks DPS faster than death.

I agree, unless you have a parser or know the rotation for everything as well as timers its very hard to pinpoint which dps is doing well. Unlike if you simply look at a tank in tank stand or a healer sitting idly around. Its rare that anyone take the L or responsibility for anything, but with that said all anyone can do is remove and reform with like minded people. Still when it comes to current harder content sub 4k is pretty low depending on the fight.

Ya know Kaiva, I honestly don't think a question mark was going to prevent the direction this thread was going to go.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Being able to see tank and healer contribution towards a fight is very easy. But for DPS, it is ridiculously hard, and accountability is difficult to gauge.

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I'm not sure the toxicity would be erased if you saw dps. If anything people might just end up being toxic to the sam and drg even if they don't act like idiots. It would be worse because in their mind they are justified, and the drg and sam would have to eat it and endure the kick. I think over time it might make people gunshy in the same way they are of healers and tanks, because if there's a decent enough negativity towards failure people become risk averse and avoid things as not to get reamed out.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure the toxicity would be erased if you saw dps. If anything people might just end up being toxic to the sam and drg even if they don't act like idiots. It would be worse because in their mind they are justified, and the drg and sam would have to eat it and endure the kick. I think over time it might make people gunshy in the same way they are of healers and tanks, because if there's a decent enough negativity towards failure people become risk averse and avoid things as not to get reamed out.

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I believe the SAM and DRG in Hyo and Cass's example getting kicked wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, though. Before anyone cries toxicity read the rest of the post.

It was a farm, not a learning or clear party. Farm parties are designed to clear a fight multiple times. That party was lucky that they had some strong DPS with them (Hyo on BRD in particular is kinda magical to watch) but if all the dps in the party were performing at the level of that DRG and SAM there is no way they would ever clear even with perfect mechanic execution because they just couldn't beat enrage.

To me this means those dps were overreaching and venturing into content they weren't prepared for, at least not in a farm party. By all means join learning parties to better nail down mechanics and to learn the job-specific adjustments needed to improve personal dps, even clear parties would be fine in my opinion, but if you're going to try to farm something you should be able to pull your own weight.

That's the crux of this discussion - dps pulling their own weight. A DRG or god forbid a SAM doing less dps in a "farm" than I did on RDM in my first clear is simply not keeping up and they need to practice more before they try again at that level. I would venture to say that even joining a farm party when your dps is so insufficent for the content is an act of toxicity in and of it's self except there is a very real chance that SAM and DRG had absolutely no idea what they were contributing or in this case lacking.

So no, I don't think everyone having the ability to parse would generate more toxicity. If anything it would inhibit it. A PF could go up to farm Tsukuyomi requiring DPS to be over 4.5k dps in a prior clear or looking for a certain percentile in damage. At that point if a person joins one of those parties and isn't qualified to they've put themself in that situation. The difference is get get to be aware of where their own performance is and the requisite performance level of the party their joining lands - if those intersect, great! If not? Move on or make your own group. No one is blind in that situation.

The beauty of it is that if Joe Schmo makes some kind of offensive or harrassing statememt about some pug dps' contribution in a leveling dungeon the chat logs and report button still work. Parsers don't mean carte blanche on rudeness and improprieties.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Oh, dear. I will of course cease posting immediately in case the opinion of someone I don't know and have never talked to decreases further.

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Thank god.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Funny, when I looked at it, I saw it as a simple factual statement and/or a demonstration that a lot of people have been parsed and their logs uploaded even if they didn't upload it themselves.

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That was pointing out a player as there was a quote on that post. Kalisto said:

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

Whenever new content is launched that we all had to start from the bottom and work ourselves up together, people calling others garbage tier have no clue what they're saying.

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& so Noctus quoted him saying that:

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

You did 2300 DPS on DRG in o5s with a single death (9:04) on May 7th (kill time 10:04).

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which brings to singling someone out & unless I'm mistaken,they didn't ask for approval to post that (as Kaliesto seem to be the actual person althought no name was stated on post actual statement written from NoctusT either...)IT WAS QUOTED.While I liked a lot of things you posted before, I disliked that one Maeka.The way this thread & posts look to me is that someone is feinting a topic & then apologising "changing race & what not then I see teams of players ganging up together as "strongs vs weaks' across several forums" & I am quite sure it is not just there but also on discord as it keep being brought up.In the end it looks like you changed arm with that last post to me.

P.s: Idc how you view it, but I do care about my view & I would love to quote that while I'm at it.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

to insult me I would first have to value your opinion" for me to value your opinion I would first have to care that this random ass person online is worth the comments they made.

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In other words, Idc for what parsers users have to say althought I do agree that knowing your numbers help, HyoMinPark & his/her crew(often misreading.misquoting.imo) can just keep thinking what they think, it wont change, but I will say this , experience is difficult to see & gauge & that specially throughtout the form of posts. If they are wanting to keep thinking that nobody want to work with each others because we disagree on said standing point of view & that there is only one true way to do things well its up to them.Me on my end i'll say this, keep up the 4k ppl! If you parse low but dodge better,then clearly...I think you are better even with lower grade gears.Knowledge & skills\over cash shops & \over parsers &\over single class 24/7 play"At that point if you have both its the best of course... but!

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Funny, when I looked at it, I saw it as a simple factual statement and/or a demonstration that a lot of people have been parsed and their logs uploaded even if they didn't upload it themselves.

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I do not find it funny.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I believe the SAM and DRG in Hyo and Cass's example getting kicked wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, though.

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It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher. But I meant more that people are a lot more toxic in general when they think its justified, and I bet even in learning or clear parties you'l start to see it taken out openly on the low dps in the same way people leave after one or two wipes in content. and in time, the people remaining would reply back in kind. It would get a bit meaner, because it could now.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher. But I meant more that people are a lot more toxic in general when they think its justified, and I bet even in learning or clear parties you'l start to see it taken out openly on the low dps in the same way people leave after one or two wipes in content. and in time, the people remaining would reply back in kind. It would get a bit meaner, because it could now.

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I don't see any reason to believe SE's stance on harassment would change any if there were to be an objective measure of everyone's performance...

..you're not getting nailed for harassment over for using a parser, though. Harassment isn't "someone was mean to me." If that were the case half the people in MMOs would be banned at one time or another.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

Soooo.... I really don't have a dog in this fight, but a few things are off about this argument:

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not really. both of those probably would be a standard deviation off, and generally skill settles in a bell curve. Most people cluster around the middle, with relatively few at the extremes. If you mean people would be nice and not mean, well, thats a fundamental disagreement that could only be proven by it actually happening.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher.

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Soooo.... I really don't have a dog in this fight, but a few things are off about this argument:

1) You're pulling a bunch of numbers out of thin air with no basis for them.

2) You're assuming a lot of stuff about people considering there is no in game parser "officially" speaking.

3) Do you mean that people will become more open about this if square added an in-game parser? That's a rather big assumption to make since Square's current rules are there to prevent or report such harassment. If Square does include a parser, I don't understand why they'd change the rules.

4) There's a big difference between "clear party" bad dps and "not knowing a basic rotation for your main job" bad DPS.

4.5) If someone is harassing someone in a learning party about their "clear party" bad DPS then they're really not someone you want to be raiding with in the first place.


If you have a monk in a learning party that's doing 4k in their opener, that's really really bad. So bring this in line with the main topic of this thread, here's why you'd kick such a monk:
If they can't be bothered to learn a basic opener for their main job, how can you expect them to properly learn mechanics and not be a drain on the team's resources?

By team resources here I mean the time spent wiping to mechanics because this monk isn't doing them/ hasn't bothered looking them up. Or the MP wasted by the healers/RDM/SMN on raising said monk because he died.

Mind you I'm not saying this hypothetical monk is garbage just that they should really learn how to play their job if they wanna raid.

EDIT: browser is being a bad boy. Also the char limit in these forums makes me cry.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

..you're not getting nailed for harassment over for using a parser, though. Harassment isn't "someone was mean to me." If that were the case half the people in MMOs would be banned at one time or another.



not really. both of those probably would be a standard deviation off, and generally skill settles in a bell curve. Most people cluster around the middle, with relatively few at the extremes. If you mean people would be nice and not mean, well, thats a fundamental disagreement that could only be proven by it actually happening.

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I didn't say people would be nice, just that there's no reason whatsoever that square's rules about harassment and griefing in party chat would change. People already kick others for bad DPS because they have act. The only people who can't do this is are PS4 players. And a lot of them raid with people who DO have ACT. There's all this fear about people suddenly becoming incredibly toxic or something but thing is that people are already being kicked for bad DPS, they just don't know WHY they've been kicked, or the party leader lies to them to be nice about it.

EDIT: if you don't care about your DPS as a DPS main, having an in game parser won't change that. Folks who don't care will not want to improve overnight. But an in-game parser will be an invaluable resource for PS4 players who DO want to improve. Yeah, you have people who will abuse an ingame parser, but the presence of a parser will not automatically turn nice people into "toxic elitists" or whatever you people call them... if someone is being an arse without a parser, chances are that they'll still be an arse if they get an in game parser.

I've just seen a lot of fear mongering in this thread with no evidence of their claims.

On a personal note, I have seen multiple screenshots of people without a parser being "toxic" in party chat. Like 4k samurais asking why they're hitting enrage on a boss. I've also been in parties with ninjas who trick on the first gcd and don't use shadewalker blame the party for "bad dps"

I must admit that a vindictive part of me would love it if these people could see their own DPS. Mind you I doubt they'll actually go learn their jobs, but at least I wouldn't have to deal with their whining if we wipe in a clear party.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

Soooo.... I really don't have a dog in this fight, but a few things are off about this argument:.

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1. 4-6.5k or so seems to me to be a rough spectrum of dps in those fights, and people here gave an average of 5k DPS. I don't think it's that far off. Extremely high dps would be canceled out by people who bought their runs, but both would be small. Tahts how percentiles work in general, they conform to a U shaped bell curve.

2,3. Again, the teeth in it I think is using third party tools. When that threat is gone, I don't think simple meanness = harassment. Keep in mind in Feast, they removed chat over banning a lot of people for toxic behavior.

4. I doubt it. Most people who do that low won't try savage for long. Remember the topic was 4k dps, not 2.5k dps.

4.5. ..yeah you say this, but if he's the top DPS, people probably would put up with him a lot more than you think.

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There's all this fear about people suddenly becoming incredibly toxic or something but thing is that people are already being kicked for bad DPS, they just don't know WHY they've been kicked, or the party leader lies to them to be nice about it.

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They no longer have to lie to protect themselves. And again, its what you believe about people. We'd see if they'd allow it, but the fact that they don't makes me think they really don't trust players to do the right thing.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They no longer have to lie to protect themselves. And again, its what you believe about people. We'd see if they'd allow it, but the fact that they don't makes me think they really don't trust players to do the right thing.

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I don't expect them to trust players. I just want them to stop hindering folks who want to improve and learn new jobs because they play on PS4. PC players already have parsers and world prog raiders have shown these parsers on their streams. The dev team doesn't care so long as you don't be a jerk about it.

"Again, the teeth in it I think is using third party tools. When that threat is gone, I don't think simple meanness = harassment. Keep in mind in Feast, they removed chat over banning a lot of people for toxic behavior."

I don't know what you mean by this? That they'll remove ACT? Please see my point above if so. They do not care that you use act.
The removal of chat in Feast was a controversial decision that a number of people complained about iirc.

EDIT: OMG please remove this stupid character limit.

EDIT 2: why would they no longer have to lie? Please answer this question: why would square remove their current rules if they added in an in game parser. If anything they'd only make them more strict.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

You did 2300 DPS on DRG in o5s with a single death (9:04) on May 7th (kill time 10:04).

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If I want to know my % I will ask ok? tyvm

Was I talking to you? IIRC someone said something very dumb like "everyone starts at the bottom at the beginning of each tier" which is not only wrong but also an incredibly lazy excuse for their terrible DPS.

OH and if you wanna see your DPS you can just check fflogs dude.

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Originally Posted by Cyreil

Ya know Kaiva, I honestly don't think a question mark was going to prevent the direction this thread was going to go.

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Clearly. No matter what, it probably would have resulted in this anyhow. It is what it is. Most generally have two different stances on it - either for or against. In all my time here, it's obvious that neither side is going to convince the other. Insofar as the current conversation goes, too many people are getting too easily offended when someone says something as simple as 'Hey, <insert DPS>, your DPS is a little low. Would you like some tips or pointers? I'd be glad to help.' Naturally, there are examples out there of folks who don't try to point things out in a rational manner and instead resort to harassment over that. The same can be said for non-raiders as well, who can be quite toxic.

Still, I can't help but wish I did include that question mark. Regardless, I said what I needed to say. If those who have read that part still think I'm expressing a statement, then the problem is on them. Support of an official parser, even though that's not really the point of this topic, is not going to create a sudden huge boom of harassment. Most only use it in content where it matters, ie savage and ex, and maybe sometimes 24-mans.

I agree that a parser is a tool like any other and as a tool it inherently is not good or bad the user determines that. To a degree I like the current system we have going, while not perfect I wish it was opt-in instead of out but that is beside the point. If SE were to make an official parser (which I doubt will ever happen with Yoshi-P at the helm. Pretty sure he is still upset over the whole Koike incident) it would be optional or only track personal data which for a lot of people defeats the purpose of having a parser. I am not saying that is fair that they use only a handful of harmful experiences as a blanket over the whole issue, but this is SE we are talking about. The same people that removed feast chat due to a small handful of complainants.

Also not sure the context but calling out someones DPS on a forum is in poor taste.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Also not sure the context but calling out someones DPS on a forum is in poor taste.

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Context: someone was using a very general statement which was also completely incorrect to say that people who want others to do DPS don't know what they're talking about. I originally thought they didn't raid at all which is why they said something that incorrect. But when I double checked I found that they were just using such a statement to justify their terrible play, so I called them out on it. I suppose I could have gone about it differently.

I think most parsers dont know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I think most parsers dont know what they are talking about.

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Parsers as in the tool, or as in other who see what you are logging. Let's talk about it. I'm being serious too. Elaborate on this comment, and let's have a civil discussion about it. Can you explain more on what you mean? And if you bring in the numbers that were seen on what you logged, I'll be happy to engage in that line of discussion too about what you may think could be wrong about what was quoted. Or if you want to drop it, I'll drop it too. It's up to you, but for now, you have my full, undivided attention.