The general player base needs to improve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

People enjoy fishing.... which I find mind numbing. Its all a matter of personal perspective.

---

I don't see how anyone can get enjoyment from not even doing basics by "expert."

I can see why fishing, it's the 1 gatherer that has some paying attention instead of "hit this rock until it's gone enjoy free lootz." But I cannot see why someone would have fun pressing 1 button for 30 minutes, yawning away as they eat every mechanic since it doesn't kill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Eventually, yes, make it so that we'll come to a point where Expert dungeons can harshly punish mistakes. But the way things are set up now, that shouldn't happen until the end of 5.0 when you unlock those exclusive Expert dungeons after whatever story is in there. The game has room for gradual difficulty. You can't just suddenly throw in Nid Hard bosses - that will definitely kill Expert runs right now. You say that gradual and optional is dumb, yet you fail to recognize that some of us have already thrown in some ideas on how this could work, whereas, once again, you have not provided anything and now you're on the 'git gud' train. Some of these dungeons shouldn't be labeled 'Expert' if they are practically no different from the rest of the other dungeons, save for the level and the scenery. Lemme pose another question.

This one is specifically for you, Riyah.

What's wrong with having optional, harder dungeons that actually feel like Expert? If they are harder and the rewards are increased enough that they offer rewards like just-below-raid-level gear, materia, exclusive mounts, maybe even tomestones that you can find during a run (though those will have to be capped...maybe implement a system where these harder, Expert dungeons can give you tomestones around 200 above the weekly cap), how is that a bad thing?

---

1. To make the boss expert, you are going to have to do things that aren't gradual.

Let's say boss has a cone aoe attack that targets a dps. It hits him for 50% of his health if he doesn't dodge. This is too easy, so you boost the damage to 75%.

The thing is...there's no difference. The healer just patches him up. We have bosses that can drop a player to 1% HP or lower as a mechanic, and it still doesn't change; the healer still patches him back up if he screws up. You can stand in the fire no matter how much damage it does as long as it doesn't kill you.

SE tries to make it gradual, so they add vuln stacks. If you get hit enough, you will eventually get one-shot. But the boss doesn't do their attacks fast enough to be an issue in a normal fight. You get jiji standing in a puddle with six stacks on him.

So in the end, you make it so that two hits of the cone aoe wipe you; the first gives enough vuln for the second to kill you, or maybe even the next aoe. but even then, all the healer has to do is raise the person and they can fight again, just a lot slower due to penalized stats.

So to make the boss not able to be zombied through, you add a strong dps check that penalizes any dps who is at 50% stats. If you get raised too much, it's a wipe.

You go from "let's try to make gradual difficulty increase" to, well, pretty much the same thing you get in an ex fight. Because you really need to have those kinds of things to make the fight expert; you can't gradually make it a challenge in any real way because the healer can fix things, and the dps can still complete things, just a lot slower. To teach the kind of skills you want the players to have, you pretty much replicate the stuff you find in savage. The bosses may not have as much HP, and the mechanics may be slower than them, but the way the game is, you really need to wipe people and have dps checks to add any sense of difficulty to the game. And if you look at some of the harder old dungeons, they do this exactly. Qarn will one shot you if you don't get on the suare to avoid doom. Bees will one-shot you if they are allowed to live. If you do not clear out bombs and fast, the last boss in brayflox hard will wipe everyone over and over again. But Aurum vale is exactly what happens when you try to make a gradual boss; a good healer can keep someone up with 4-5 stacks on some of the bosses, and even if they die, nothing really happens; they just get raised and go back in there.

As for optional experts, go nuts. We have them already, we call them ex trials. You even can get unique mounts from them. They don't really seem to work in the sense of "lets make the playerbase better, though." Because you can ignore them if you like. Heck, the ARR ex primals are already the perfect difficulty for this kind of thing. Its just unless you force people to do them, the people who would learn from doing it won't, and the people who think everything is easy will, and we are back to where we started.

I dont think BLM was neutered.... In fact I absolutely love BLM as it is now... Have you not seen the double to triple flares? The job is so so satisfying to play now.

Anyway back to discussion... lets look at this from a different angle. We have a lot of casual players and I would bet some of the casual players that started playing after Stormblood hit the server have yet to hit level 70.

With that said FFXIV still uses old base MMO style game play and the players who only own a console will be thrown into an environment that is very different then most console style games, especially current gen games. So be patient with the players you run with and teach them what you know. Some players might have learning disabilities or handicaps that may prevent them from learning content quickly or respond to mechanics quickly and they may need to run it 20+ time to overcome whatever issue they may have.

Veteran players always be kind as everyone has there own issues and making an effort to help others just might add another descent player in the long run. Encourage players to fight through their fears, disabilities or whatever it may be that holds them back. Yelling or rage quitting only proves nothing and doesn't solve the problem. Fighting with each other has never solved a problem... brain storming with one another to figuring out a solution to a problem is the only way to solve a problem.

Here is a way to approach a problem:

"Hey NAME HERE thanks for joining the party, awesome glamor btw, I noticed you were having issues with x-mechanic and x-phase change, what issues are you having? I will be happy to answer any question you may have. Help us help you :)" Different approach for different folks can be the difference from a party falling apart or finally clearing the content.

Happy Questing :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astral145

Anyway back to discussion... lets look at this from a different angle. We have a lot of casual players and I would bet some of the casual players that started playing after Stormblood hit the server have yet to hit level 70.

With that said FFXIV still uses old base MMO style game play and the players who only own a console will be thrown into an environment that is very different then most console style games, especially current gen games.

---

These 2 sentences are contradiction. I believe casual or hardcore are more about the level commitment of a player, not their skill. A casual is someone don't spend a lot of time on something, it doesn't mean that player will be a bad one, a hardcore is simply someone putting a lot of time doing clearing as fast as possible, but that doesn't necessary mean the player is good.You can find a "midcore" group that only put in a few hours in progression a week, but all are solid players with deep understanding of their class. On the other hand, you can find a hardcore groups that requires member to skip work/school and put in 40+ hours of progression a week, yet the member's skill ceiling can be pretty low. For the lack of better word (since my vocab is rather limited), I find it's rather insulting that most people seem to have a misconception about this, but: hardcore =/= good, casual =/= bad.

What you see as the base skill set of vast FF14's players have more things to do with the game philosophy and nature, and that is it encourage bad play by setting the bar very low. You'll always have hardcore and casual in any MMO, even in the "old" MMO like classic WoW or Everquest. The only thing difference is those game set the bard high even for entry content. Think about this example:

- Rushing dungeon is an age old argument you see popping up on this forum once a while, about how people enjoy their running dungeon differently. Yet, the core if this issue is because the system is set up to allow that problem to exist. People can pull wall to wall because - simply put - if they are good enough they can do it, and do it without breaking a sweat most of the time.
- I personally NEVER hear about this problem before I came into this game, why? Because other MMO does not allow it. For example, Wow up until Wrath of the Lich King is a serious business even in normal dungeon. Each pull is a wipe potential, each boss fight is a wipe potential. Difficult pull requires some basic coordination in the group i.e CC, focus target ...etc... You don't even dare to do 2 groups pull, in fact, when the patrols overlaps each other, the party is required to "patiently" wait for them to pass each other before pulling one group without aggro the others. These were not "optional" tactic for good group, but "requirement" for every party. Even if you're in raid gears, accidentally pulling a patrol when fighting a pack is not a pleasant experience.

For example, we have a certain "tank" in another topic just now that claim "I got into another group and we cleared just fine" despite himself admitting that he's pretty much doing every about tanking wrong, thus got him kicked from his previous group. (I don't comment in that thread because if I do I won't have something nice to say). But that tank will be kicked from any "old" MMO really fast if he does not listen to people "advice" because it's not even a problem of the run taking longer, it'll just be impossible to clear. The DPS doesn't do its job meaning the healer will run out of MP and the tank gonna die, the tank doesn't do his job meaning the DPS or the healer gonna die (if the tank doesn't die himself first) and the healer doesn't do his job mean the tank will pretty much guarantee to die. But that's not how FF14 is set up, in a dungeon in this game I feel as long as you have one solid player, you can drag the party to the finishing life even if the other 3 are bad. And because of that, those 3 other bad players will continue to move one thinking they had not done something wrong ... until they ran into a party that won't put up with their level of play, and force to face reality (like the mentioned tank did).

But, this is not the fault of the players, but the system. It sets the bar low, and the players base simply conforming to that standard. In another other MMO, that tank would have learn the lesson he's learning now at level 25 in the latest or he would never finish another dungeon, and not start learning it at lvl 51. So @OP, people does not have to become better, the game gives them no reason to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

snip

---

Why don’t we just think of Expert as practice for Savage/Ex fights? With everything we’ve seen thus far, there are plenty of mechanics that could be brought in. Widen your scope a little bit. You don’t need to have enemies one or two shotting players. Since we don’t have crowd control abilities ourselves, why not let the enemies have them? You’re right, healers are capable of fixing pretty much any mistake.

So how do you fix that?

Hit all characters with Infirmary. Or give the healers an HP penalty down debuff from an enemy that is never in a fixed location for players to be prepared for ahead of time. Things like that. Hit tanks with vuln stacks. Start giving DPS some damage down debuffs and start a hard DPS check. Have some bosses use skills specific to the jobs in a party. Throw in a mechanic that resets aggro, forcing players to use their enmity dumps.

There are so many ways you can increase difficulty without going the tired route of ‘this boss hits so much harder…healers, top him off’. There’s room to bring in some very interesting ways of beating a boss. I loved the second boss in Bardam’s Mettle, because it was 100% pure mechanics and no DPS. Honestly, I dunno what happens if everybody fails It, but stuff like that would be great in Expert. Not the 100% mechanics part, but something similar where it is unique.

Aurum Vale was punishing because by this point, it is ingrained into players to push forward no matter what. Qarn forced you to do mechanics, because if you didn’t, a lot healers were not capable of saving a wipe at that point. Same with Brayflox…you needed AOEs to be efficient at getting the bombs the hell away from the party.

Ex trials are not expert dungeons…they’re trials. Don’t wanna mess with the rewards there. But with actual expert dungeons, set the item level to about 5 below the latest ex trial. And again, I have to emphasize giving good incentives for completing it. Yeah, maybe players will ignore harder, optional dungeons – just like players ignore SSS…but the option would be there. You’re right, you can’t force players to do hard content…but if you put the option out there, at the very least, it will do a better job of allowing players to be prepared for what they will see in the hard fights.

Who thinks everything is easy? I certainly never said that. A lot of raiders that we’ve talked to on many occasions don’t think that either. I mean, shoot, I just got completely owned by Byakko tonight, and I’ve cleared it several dozen times. Twitch streamers who have gotten through Ultimate and are capable of clearing the latest Savage raid in days may find everything easy, but a lot of us here on the forums who actively raid don’t find everything easy. The ones who find everything easy are a small minority that probably don’t even have the desire to check these forums, and thus they are not included in my original discussion topic, nor are they relevant in this topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jijifli

I don't see how anyone can get enjoyment from not even doing basics by "expert."

I can see why fishing, it's the 1 gatherer that has some paying attention instead of "hit this rock until it's gone enjoy free lootz." But I cannot see why someone would have fun pressing 1 button for 30 minutes, yawning away as they eat every mechanic since it doesn't kill.

---

I keep seeing these kinds of post in a lot of threads and I have to say I have never experienced this. People using 1 or 3 buttons and running into aoe's to take damage. I have seen afk'ers and people who don't play well but I wonder if this is just hyperbole or are people really doing this stuff?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minako_Nightsong

I keep seeing these kinds of post in a lot of threads and I have to say I have never experienced this. People using 1 or 3 buttons and running into aoe's to take damage. I have seen afk'ers and people who don't play well but I wonder if this is just hyperbole or are people really doing this stuff?

---

Basic rotators definitely exist, though rare. No AoEs, no abilities except signatures such as (maybe) Enochian, BotD, or Ninjutsu, one combo only -- on repeat. Panicked and late attempts to dodge things if at all. Even those Monks using Tornado Kick on cooldown are a vast improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Why don’t we just think of Expert as practice for Savage/Ex fights? With everything we’ve seen thus far, there are plenty of mechanics that could be brought in. Widen your scope a little bit. You don’t need to have enemies one or two shotting players. Since we don’t have crowd control abilities ourselves, why not let the enemies have them?.

---

Either the healer uses esuna, and they go, or its the same thing we already have, uncleansable debuffs. The worst we have is paralysis.

Quote:

---

So how do you fix that? You’re right, healers are capable of fixing pretty much any mistake. Hit all characters with Infirmary. Or give the healers an HP penalty down debuff from an enemy that is never in a fixed location for players to be prepared for ahead of time. Things like that. Hit tanks with vuln stacks. Start giving DPS some damage down debuffs and start a hard DPS check. Have some bosses use skills specific to the jobs in a party. Throw in a mechanic that resets aggro, forcing players to use their enmity dumps.

There are so many ways you can increase difficulty without going the tired route of ‘this boss hits so much harder…healers, top him off’. There’s room to bring in some very interesting ways of beating a boss. I loved the second boss in Bardam’s Mettle, because it was 100% pure mechanics and no DPS. Honestly, I dunno what happens if everybody fails It, but stuff like that would be great in Expert. Not the 100% mechanics part, but something similar where it is unique.

---

Those don't really do much. You give dps a damage down and have a dps check, its the same as just not giving them a dmg down and making it a harder dps check. You give them infirmary, you just end up balancing the attacks based on the lowered totals. It just goes back to whether or not what you do has a serious threat to wipe the player. If it doesn't, its the same as we already have.

Quote:

---

Aurum Vale was punishing because by this point, it is ingrained into players to push forward no matter what. Qarn forced you to do mechanics, because if you didn’t, a lot healers were not capable of saving a wipe at that point. Same with Brayflox…you needed AOEs to be efficient at getting the bombs the hell away from the party.

---

Aurum was only hard because people tried to skip mobs. that's it honestly. If you just slowed down and fought them, no difficulty. But yeah, those two examples had risk to wipe the party, so they served as harder content.

Quote:

---

Ex trials are not expert dungeons…they’re trials. Don’t wanna mess with the rewards there. But with actual expert dungeons, set the item level to about 5 below the latest ex trial. And again, I have to emphasize giving good incentives for completing it. Yeah, maybe players will ignore harder, optional dungeons – just like players ignore SSS…but the option would be there. You’re right, you can’t force players to do hard content…but if you put the option out there, at the very least, it will do a better job of allowing players to be prepared for what they will see in the hard fights.

Who thinks everything is easy? I certainly never said that. A lot of raiders that we’ve talked to on many occasions don’t think that either. I mean, shoot, I just got completely owned by Byakko tonight, and I’ve cleared it several dozen times. Twitch streamers who have gotten through Ultimate and are capable of clearing the latest Savage raid in days may find everything easy, but a lot of us here on the forums who actively raid don’t find everything easy. The ones who find everything easy are a small minority that probably don’t even have the desire to check these forums, and thus they are not included in my original discussion topic, nor are they relevant in this topic.

---

no no, my point was that we already have things that are optional, hard, teach players skills, and offer rewards better than the casual content that precedes them. those are ex trials. However, the problem with ex trials is not enough people do it, especially the people who could benefit from having their skills challenged by them. The people though who already find most content in the game easy are the ones who tend to do them, and then they complain its too easy. You can have those dungeons, but they might end up as another form of ex primals in terms of impact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Those don't really do much. You give dps a damage down and have a dps check, its the same as just not giving them a dmg down and making it a harder dps check.

---

Not entirely. If you have a tight DPS check you just need proper rotations and damage upkeep to beat it. If you include mechanics that will grant damage down debuffs when ignored you add an extra layer of difficulty. Instead of just having to deal as much damage as possible you will also have to handle mechanics while trying to deal your damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You give them infirmary, you just end up balancing the attacks based on the lowered totals. It just goes back to whether or not what you do has a serious threat to wipe the player. If it doesn't, its the same as we already have.

---

If damage is tweaked to a point that an infirmary debuff will make it impossible for a healer to keep up, it could help make a fight more difficult. For example, if the fight has a tight dps check but the tank dies because they ignored a mechanic and got inflicted with Infirmary. There's even ways to make it so DPS could be negatively effected by Infirmary. Here's some examples:

Mechanic that can inflict Infirmary > AoE that inflicts hefty DoT > AoE > AoE

There could even be a boss that would kill anyone with Infirmary outright, or inflicts a very powerful DoT if they are inflicted by Infirmary.

There's a lot of different things that could be introduced that could make fights more difficult. I can think of things that aren't that "same we already have".

You can keep banging your heads on the wall trying to change other people's aspirations and aims in a mmo, or you can accept that the FFXIV community (like most communities) is diverse and that people play for different reasons.
There are no people standing on the aoes on purpose to ruin your lives and there are no people ignoring share damage mechanics as long as they notice them.

I said I'm familiar with the kind of player profile that just "harmlessly offers advice" when on reality most of the times they are nothing but people with temperamental attitudes (or a bad day). Perhaps the TC is actually not among these people and he/she is legit concerned about the average level of the players in this game? Possibly. But understand my skepticism when my experience has told me otherwise throughout all these years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

There are no people standing on the aoes on purpose to ruin your lives and there are no people ignoring share damage mechanics as long as they notice them.

---

I really want to know what Duty Finder you’re playing in, because in the DF I run in, there are people that just blatantly stand in AOEs, ignore mechanics, and not only ignore the stack markers, but run away with them.

Quote:

---

I said I'm familiar with the kind of player profile that just "harmlessly offers advice" when on reality most of the times they are nothing but people with temperamental attitudes (or a bad day). Perhaps the TC is actually not among these people and he/she is legit concerned about the average level of the players in this game? Possibly. But understand my skepticism when my experience has told me otherwise throughout all these years.

---

Your “skepticism” is nothing more than a baseless assumption that you’ve made against Kaiva without even really knowing them. I understand past experiences can jade people, and I consider myself pretty darn jaded, but I don’t just assume the worst of people, nor make blanket generalizations about them without even knowing them. Especially when they’ve been perfectly cordial in a discussion thread they created.

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people). I don't think what I said was as terrible as you are making it out to be anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You'll be amazed at how quickly people motivate themselves when reasonably pushed.

---

Gordias and A3S are a good example. People were surely very motivated with those turns and their tight DPS checks. They were so motivated that more than half the playerbase quitted the game. The term "reasonably" is ambiguous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You realize the inherent hypocrisy here, yes? By casting a wide, generalizing net, you look just as toxic as the players you're accusing. When people cite those "refusing to learn," they mean dungeon runs where DPS will not AoE no matter how often they are asked; any job who has not even the basic idea how their job works despite being at max level. In plenty of cases, it's these people who get the most irate despite causing the problem. Or am I an "angry bully" for expecting you to press your AoE abilities when I pull ten mobs and you're wearing better gear than I am?

---

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it? Ask SE to make people use AOE actions on your dungeon runs? There's a limit to what SE can do. You guys think it's SE who is spoiling people by making things too easy. I don't agree with that. I think what we have now is what most people legit want, and I think you are in the minority here. Hunts are a good example of this. They are extremely easy content with high reward. At times, they are so crowded my screen can't even load the amount of people that are gathered next to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people).

---

It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with. You don’t know anything about them to even give the slightest insinuation that they’re actually a jerk; so just assuming they’re a jerk because, what? A thread they made that you don’t seem to agree with? That’s baseless. Kaiva has been civil in their thread; there has been no name-calling on their end. Where as, your behavior has been fairly uncalled for with quite a fair bit of name-calling, so people have reason to tell you as such.

And maybe Kaiva is better at ignoring people being rude towards them, but I’ve never had very high tolerance for people that just assume things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it?

---

If you repeatedly ask DPS to AOE during large pulls, and they still refuse to do so, then I will gladly click “yes” for any vote kick. Because they aren’t pulling their weight, but expecting everyone else to do more damage to make up for them not wanting to hit their AOE skill.

Would you be okay with a tank that didn’t want to hold a boss? What about a healer that doesn’t want to heal? Or a tank or healer that only does half of their job? A DPS refusing to AOE a large pull is doing half the damage (less, actually) that they can actually do, thereby doing half of their job....which is to deal as much damage as possible. I don’t understand this double standard of tanks/healers must do 100%, but if the SAM doesn’t want to AOE or the NIN feels like doing 50%, that’s a-okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Either the healer uses esuna, and they go, or its the same thing we already have, uncleansable debuffs. The worst we have is paralysis.

---

Paralysis is one of the most effective things that the game does throw at us. I can't argue this...good point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Those don't really do much. You give dps a damage down and have a dps check, its the same as just not giving them a dmg down and making it a harder dps check. You give them infirmary, you just end up balancing the attacks based on the lowered totals. It just goes back to whether or not what you do has a serious threat to wipe the player. If it doesn't, its the same as we already have.

---

Not quite. If you have a damage down with a tough DPS check, you're gonna have to bring out everything you've got. Say, you get it during a Behemoth's Meteor cast. If a DPS is down, you will not pass this check. Obviously, the min ilvl has to be balanced towards this, but we're talking about having expert level dungeons - given that nearly all EX and Savage battles have a smaller DPS check in battle, it will encourage players to push out damage. That's just one example.

Have another one where you're fighting a boss on a platform similar to Demon Wall, and a pushback mechanic that covers the entire platform is about to come up along with particularly nasty, untargetable adds (say aether swords or something like that) that will float across the platform. The adds themselves deal attack/magic damage down debuffs if you touch just one of them. One way of dealing with that would be to stack in a way that the pushback will knock you in a way that the entire party will not touch any of the adds. Have something like that, and boom, you are familiarized with one of the main mechanics of O5S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

no no, my point was that we already have things that are optional, hard, teach players skills, and offer rewards better than the casual content that precedes them. those are ex trials. However, the problem with ex trials is not enough people do it, especially the people who could benefit from having their skills challenged by them. The people though who already find most content in the game easy are the ones who tend to do them, and then they complain its too easy. You can have those dungeons, but they might end up as another form of ex primals in terms of impact.

---

Ex/Savage trials are a significant step up. Truthfully, all I'm suggesting is a middle ground between the dungeons we currently have now, and those hard battles. I'll even take it a step further, take the existing Hard Mode dungeons and call them (Dungeon Name) Unyielding. The people who find everything easy don't really matter, because their skill levels are just simply far above our own. I'd venture to say Wanderer's Palace Unyielding could be the first. Have a Master Tonberry capable of causing instant death, and being able to cast meteor. Allow it to even invade in the boss fight. That'll give a run a sense of urgency, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with.

---

You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

Anyway, we could go on and on about this. We clearly have different views about this community. I think it's doing fine, and I think it's healthier than ever (couldn't say the same thing in HW).
From what I gather, some of you think a lot of people are spoiled, lazy and that SE should somehow obligate them to perform better. I don't see this problem. All I'm seeing are people that play at different levels because they feel different about this game or dedicate more time to it, etc.

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Gordias and A3S are a good example. People were surely very motivated with those turns and their tight DPS checks. They were so motivated that more than half the playerbase quitted the game. The term "reasonably" is ambiguous.

---

I like how you omitted context here. That quote was in response to dungeons. Savage isn't meant for people learning how to improve from the ground up. You're comparing apples with oranges. Regardless, the developers outside acknowledge they didn't test Gordias properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it? Ask SE to make people use AOE actions on your dungeon runs? There's a limit to what SE can do. You guys think it's SE who is spoiling people by making things too easy. I don't agree with that. I think what we have now is what most people legit want, and I think you are in the minority here. Hunts are a good example of this. They are extremely easy content with high reward. At times, they are so crowded my screen can't even load the amount of people that are gathered next to them.

---

Happily initiate a Vote Dismissal. I suppose you're okay with tanks refusing to hold aggro or healers opting not to heal. After all, if the baseline is only doing what you want, we can extent that standard to every job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

---

AoE abilities are acquired pre-50. In fact, the only job that doesn't have an aoe before 50 is Astro; a healer. If you've made it to level 70 and haven't figured out your aoe rotation, you're not bothering to read your tooltip—at which point, I couldn't care less if you "just made it to 70." That isn't an excuse when you had almost thirty levels to learn what those abilities did. If they want to practice their single target rotation, do it on the boss not when the tank pulls ten mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

---

Well, most DPS jobs’ AOEs are learned at level 30~40 by the absolute latest (barring a few exceptions), some much earlier than that (BRD learns Quick Nock at level 18). If a DPS has had a skill for 30~40+ levels, and still cannot use them at level 70 in current endgame dungeons...then I don’t even know what to tell them. When you explicitly ask for their AOEs in chat multiple times, and they refuse to cooperate, well...sorry, I don’t have much sympathy for them.

As for practicing a single-target rotation, do it on the bosses. Not on the pack of 5+ mobs that are taking forever and a day to die. Or, better yet, practice on a striking dummy first, until it’s border muscle-memory, and then take it into duties, and practice on bosses, or on packs that are 3 mobs are less (because AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

---

What’s so strange about asking you to just be respectful toward someone unless they give you a good reason not to be? Has Kaiva given you a reason to respond as you have been responding in this thread; an actual good reason other than they said something you disagree with? If not, then you’re being needlessly rude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

---

Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

I said I'm familiar with the kind of player profile that just "harmlessly offers advice" when on reality most of the times they are nothing but people with temperamental attitudes (or a bad day). Perhaps the TC is actually not among these people and he/she is legit concerned about the average level of the players in this game? Possibly. But understand my skepticism when my experience has told me otherwise throughout all these years.

---

If you run into tempermental advice givers so much, that raises the question of what you are or aren't doing to prompt such advice being offered? I mean, I so rarely, if ever get advice, but I also show myself to be more than competent at whatever role/job I'm playing at the time, and generally am capable of figuring things out on my own. And I don't think that's anything extraordinary or difficult for any other player to do. The difference is having the will to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

---

Nice try. I speak from experience, both PvE and PvP that after a while, you can really tell the difference in movement between a newer player, and a player just phoning it in. As for practicing a single target rotation, please tell me where the logic applies in practicing single target rotation when confronted with multiple enemies? Striking dummies exist for a reason, so I'm shooting that one down. Just as well, if they're at level 70 and don't know their single target rotation, what have they been doing all that time?

I get that you want to find the outlying possibilities, but let's keep some rationality in the debate. I wouldn't kick someone doing any of the things you mentioned above, but I would speak up to offer them advice. If they don't want to take it and use it, or want to lash out at me, I'm more than free to leave, just as they are. But that won't solve the problem one bit, and trying to justify or excuse it won't either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

---

Completely agree with that. Practicing their single target rotations on a dungeon when they should be playing for the team and AOE the group of mobs sounds selfish and isn't the perfect scenario... but nothing's perfect, ever, honestly. Going as far as to start a vote kick against these players? I say no to that. The only players I've kicked were people that were verbally harassing me or my group or were afk for a reasonable amount of time with no explanation given.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If you run into tempermental advice givers so much, that raises the question of what you are or aren't doing to prompt such advice being offered? I mean, I so rarely, if ever get advice, but I also show myself to be more than competent at whatever role/job I'm playing at the time, and generally am capable of figuring things out on my own. And I don't think that's anything extraordinary or difficult for any other player to do. The difference is having the will to do it.

---

Why do you assume I'm the one targeted by temperamental people? I don't like these people going wild on others either. I'm not even defending myself here. I know my rotations well. I'm not raiding currently, but I raided in Omega, a fast look at my FFlogs there would be enough to know I'm not the one not aoeing in dungeons or being called out for not pulling their weight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Completely agree with that. Practicing their single target rotations on a dungeon when they should be playing for the team and AOE the group of mobs sounds selfish and isn't the perfect scenario... but nothing's perfect, ever, honestly. Going as far as to start a vote kick against these players? I say no to that. The only players I've kicked were people that were verbally harassing me or my group or were afk for a reasonable amount of time with no explanation given.

---

Honestly, it depends. It's one of those case-by-case basis. I won't initiate a vote kick myself over stuff like that. But if somebody else initiates the vote kick, if they've been doing things that make the dungeon run unnecessarily more difficult that I've personally noticed, I'll hit yes. If I haven't noticed it, I don't buy into it. I was encouraged back when I was trying to get my mentor status to kick a player who joined my party - I'll note it was explicitly me asking for a carry on Thordan Ex in the PF in order to obtain my mentor status (this was the only fight I hadn't actually learned). This was many months ago. I guess one of the players had a terribly bad experience with a DPS and they wanted me to kick them because they thought that the DPS was trolling in their last party.

I ignored that, because I don't react to things I don't personally see.

And lo and behold, we got the clear after several wipes, because turns out, that DPS was the one that taught me how to complete that fight. I done went on a completely different subject here...fact is, I don't see everything as cut-and-paste black-and-white. I'd prefer to help other players - if they ignore me, fine, I'll just deal with it. I picked up mentor status to help, though.

...and I totally lost track of why I was originally responding in the first place.

That's new... -_-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

---

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Why do you assume I'm the one targeted by temperamental people? I don't like these people going wild on others either. I'm not even defending myself here. I know my rotations well. I'm not raiding currently, but I raided in Omega, a fast look at my FFlogs there would be enough to know I'm not the one not aoeing in dungeons or being called out for not pulling their weight.

---

Because of "I'm familiar with. . ." and "my experience told me otherwise. . ."

I don't think it's you personally, and I don't care about FFLogs one bit; that honestly holds no weight in the discussion here. But don't try to use your annecdotal experience to justify others not doing what would generally be considered reasonable, baseline play in sub-Savage content. Don't reach for excuses and far-reaching logic behind why anyone may or may not be playing to par. Yes, new is new, and some people just aren't good at some things. But it doesn't, and shouldn't end there. Saying the general playerbase needs to improve really touches upon the fact that even though the game may perhaps not require players to do better, there seems to be a lacking sense of desire for self-improvement. Just because you're not good or not at a higher level doesn't mean you should or have to stay there. And I'm not aiming this at just you, but anyone who's chimed in with the "people are going to do what they want/not everyone plays on the same level" bit.

No, not everyone does. But if they're not even playing to the baseline, then yes, at or by level 70, they need to be there, plain and simple. And it's NOT impossible to do. Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works. Let's establish that now, and let that crap logic be laid to rest in this discussion once and for all. The moment there's one more person in a party besides you, it's not about doing it your way anymore, and no amount of self-confident declaration is going to justify that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

...and I totally lost track of why I was originally responding in the first place.

That's new... -_-

---

From what I gather, you seem to think there's a problem with the average level of this community. I'm not seeing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

---

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them? I'll answer for you, they won't. And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

Pharos Sirius, the first new dungeon we ever got, was nerfed.
Expert roulette/Daily content is intentionally kept at a low level of difficulty, both for convenience, and because they don't want players to feel blocked
Crystal Tower was nerfed internally before we every got to play it because the devs thought it was "too hard for players". It still proved to be one of the harder Alliance Raids we've ever had after that fact.
Coil saw several nerfs each time the content became old, to the point of some turns being a shell of their former self.
Steps of Faith was nerfed into oblivion.
SE is on record saying they wouldn't make any Ex trials as difficult after Thordan
Players petitioned to make sure Weeping City was NOT nerfed.

. . .If the average level of the community were fine, none of the above would've been a concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them? I'll answer for you, they won't. And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

---

You assume too much in immediately jumping to kicking the player. And realistically, there's no way for a player to not know what AoE skills they have available. Sure, some might not read tooltips, but who doesn't try out new skills when they get them? Fact is, it would take an active effort or absolute, complete, I've-never-touched-this-job-ever levels of competence to completely ignore AoE skills legitimately. But again, the difference between someone who legit doesn't know and someone who's just not trying is often quite clear. And I would hardly expect someone who actually doesn't know something to be hostile in being offered advice in a civil manner. As for someone not trying, if they get defiant, as I said before, either one of us is free to leave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them?

---

Some of them will, yes. Considering even basic AoE would be a big upgrade and that can be as simple as "use Scatter instead of Jolt", it's something that can be explained in chat.

Quote:

---

I'll answer for you, they won't.

---

And exactly what is that based on, except your resounding negativity about every player who isn't you?

Quote:

---

And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

---

Another negative assumption. Are you here to actually discuss anything, or just to attack everyone that isn't telling you what you want to hear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Because of "I'm familiar with. . ." and "my experience told me otherwise. . ."

---

And how do you exactly gather from there that I've been the one bullied all this time? If I see someone being a douche to another someone I don't like it either, and I acknowledge it. I don't go by the "as long as it doesn't happen to me it's fine" philosophy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works.

---

In static groups and PF parties, it's only natural that people expect a minimum, in the rest of the content however, the phrase I quoted from you literally gives you free hand to call out every little thing you may not like from anyone you come across. Quite dangerous to go by that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I don't think it's you personally, and I don't care about FFLogs one bit; that honestly holds no weight in the discussion here. But don't try to use your annecdotal experience to justify others not doing what would generally be considered reasonable, baseline play in sub-Savage content. Don't reach for excuses and far-reaching logic behind why anyone may or may not be playing to par. Yes, new is new, and some people just aren't good at some things. But it doesn't, and shouldn't end there. Saying the general playerbase needs to improve really touches upon the fact that even though the game may perhaps not require players to do better, there seems to be a lacking sense of desire for self-improvement. Just because you're not good or not at a higher level doesn't mean you should or have to stay there. And I'm not aiming this at just you, but anyone who's chimed in with the "people are going to do what they want/not everyone plays on the same level" bit.

No, not everyone does. But if they're not even playing to the baseline, then yes, at or by level 70, they need to be there, plain and simple. And it's NOT impossible to do. Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works. Let's establish that now, and let that crap logic be laid to rest in this discussion once and for all. The moment there's one more person in a party besides you, it's not about doing it your way anymore, and no amount of self-confident declaration is going to justify that.

---

And how do you plan on solving the "lack of desire for self-improvement", that's a pretty complicated thing to do. What else can you do other than making stuff harder? SE already did that with HW and Gordias, and it literally set the worst FFXIV precedent after the 1.0 fiasco. Why do you think they've made SB significantly easier, and why do you think a lot more people are playing now than they did in HW? Hell, you are literally asking them to do what made them lose more subs in the first place?
They've put share markers, they've made an eye of the size of an elephant appear when you have to look away from the target, they are certainly doing things to encourage people follow mechanics and make the game less confusing, but ultimately it's up to people.
Again, I don't see as much of a problem as you obviously do here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

Some of them will, yes. Considering even basic AoE would be a big upgrade and that can be as simple as "use Scatter instead of Jolt", it's something that can be explained in chat.

---

I don't think every AOE rotation can be learnt that easily, not in a dungeon run. It's not just pressing the right buttons, it's pressing them in the right order, having them binded, some aoe rotations can be unforgiving if you mess up. SAM for instance is complex enough for someone to almost have no idea of where to even start provided they have never attempted it. You entirely put the blame on the player, and if things don't go the way you like, you automatically assume they are not listening to you and proceed to kick them. They could not be answering or answering with short sentences because there are a lot of PS4 players in this game too, and not every single one of them has a keyboard (or the space to put one next to the console to type comfortably). But really, just do your thing, there's a vote kick there for you to use, use it when you find it aproppriate. I'll do the same.

I have a few people I know that had flat out told me that: if it doesn't kill you, you don't have to move. And note that these guys are actually raiders.

It presents the problem with the game: it's THAT easy. You don't have to say "oh the game should apply this mechanic, or should have player do xyz" here, those suggestion are meaningless. If you pay attention, there are already enough mechanic hitting you in DUNGEON. The issue is not about there isn't enough mechanic, the issue is most if not all of them are inconsequential. The 2nd box in the new Research facility dungeon actually have a lot of mechanic, and I tell you I have been regular hit by them. But I admit I rarely ever pay attention what they are: BECAUSE I NEVER DIE GETTING HIT by them.

- Other MMO: 1 or 2 mobs loose from the tank and the healer only get a few second to live. Here, you can pretty much do a FFA tanking if it's a single group. Tank's incompetency is an annoyance rather than hinderance.
- Other MMO: you get hit with an ability and most likely you gonna die, or come very close to dying, and put further stress on the healer, who in turn can result in the tank dying. Here you can eat 1 - 2 - 3 AOE and still standing, and it only take 1 AOE heal from the healer to top you off.

You don't need a culture of player to tell or enforce vote kicking, you just need the game enforce consequence for mistake. Do that, and you'll be surprise how fast people become better by themselves. Remember: why should I move, if this hit doesn't kill and feel nothing more than an aint's bite?

Are you entirely sure that the above is what the playerbase really wants though? Because personally, I have my doubts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

I don't think every AOE rotation can be learnt that easily, not in a dungeon run. It's not just pressing the right buttons, it's pressing them in the right order, having them binded, some aoe rotations can be unforgiving if you mess up.

---

If someone isn't AoEing at all, using an AoE is an upgrade. That can be explained. The full on optimal rotation for every job can't, but that isn't the goal. Much like I can't condense how to play a savage PLD into chat (especially since I don't know), but I can tell someone who is losing aggro how to hold it in levelling.

The goal isn't to turn someone into an expert in 5 minutes. It's to take someone who is having trouble with something and help improve it. That can absolutely be done in chat, from first hand experience on both ends of it. Doesn't always work, but sometimes it does, and that success rate is far better than throwing your hands up and declaring it's hopeless so why bother trying.

Quote:

---

You entirely put the blame on the player, and if things don't go the way you like, you automatically assume they are not listening to you and proceed to kick them.

---

Would you quit making stuff up? It's pretty old. I can count the number of vote kicks I've initiated on one hand, and zero of them were for this. If they don't take my advice and we're still getting our clear, than so be it. That's my attitude. It's rather tiresome to have you taking someone else and imposing it on me so you have a strawman to argue against.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

And how do you plan on solving the "lack of desire for self-improvement", that's a pretty complicated thing to do. What else can you do other than making stuff harder? SE already did that with HW and Gordias, and it literally set the worst FFXIV precedent after the 1.0 fiasco. Why do you think they've made SB significantly easier, and why do you think a lot more people are playing now than they did in HW? Hell, you are literally asking them to do what made them lose more subs in the first place?
They've put share markers, they've made an eye of the size of an elephant appear when you have to look away from the target, they are certainly doing things to encourage people follow mechanics and make the game less confusing, but ultimately it's up to people.
Again, I don't see as much of a problem as you obviously do here.

---

There's the point of the topic: SE tried to raise the bar a bit in Heavensward and players couldn't handle it. Now, in Stormblood, they've sought to make things easier, and people STILL can't seem to handle things. . . Something's got to give.

I said it in a different thread before, that we're level 70, but still barely handling what can effectively be considered level 50 challenges. Hashmal is nothing more than Ifrit dashes, instant kill line AoEs with the obvious "IT'S GOING TO FALL THIS WAY" visual, and the usual AoE on player rondo. It's nothing new at all; just mechanics we've seen before with a different coat of paint, and maybe heavier penalties for failing them. And yet people seem like they just can't handle it. . . They can't handle it because outside of leveling and Savage content, all other endgame content remains faceroll easy, either for convenience, or because SE literally thinks people can't handle more than that. And it would seem that players have validated that.

And you see no problem there?

As for self-improvement, some people just won't. We understand that. Some don't care; we understand that. But when the game itself doesn't spark the desire to even try, but instead chooses to keep the bar low AND continually lower it, most players would be inclined to either not feel it's necessary, or question if it's even worth improving. That is not a good precedent for a game to have for the sake of longevity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

I have a few people I know that had flat out told me that: if it doesn't kill you, you don't have to move. And note that these guys are actually raiders.

---

Sometimes that's true. I took a tank friend through Fractal Hard the other day for his first time, and I told him pretty much that on the last boss. When he does his spin attack, the tank can simply eat it without consequence. If I can heal through it (and I absolutely can), then why not?

I mean, there needs to be something for healers to do. :)

But yes, in general I agree with you that lots of mechanics that should have consequences don't. A lot of that is because healing requirements are low and burst healing is absurdly powerful. I can heal a group to full in seconds on WHM, and then I'm back to tossing rocks because there isn't more damage incoming. If it took me 5 GCDs and a third of my MP to recover from everyone standing in stuff, even if it didn't kill them, it'd be a lot harder to keep doing that because by the fourth one I'm going to be running into problems keeping that throughput up. That's a consequence, but not a one hit kill one.

IMO, healing needs to be nerfed across the board as part of 5.0 so we can see something like that happen.

Quote:

---

- Other MMO: you get hit with an ability and most likely you gonna die, or come very close to dying, and put further stress on the healer, who in turn can result in the tank dying. Here you can eat 1 - 2 - 3 AOE and still standing, and it only take 1 AOE heal from the healer to top you off.

---

Ah, I see you got to that. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And you see no problem there?

---

Not gonna judge whether it's right or wrong, but if that's what the majority of the playerbase feels comfortable with, I'm afraid we all have no choice but to adapt to it. Personally, I do agree there's a certain degree of lazyness among the FFXIV community when it comes to handling relatively complex mechanics, but I too think it has nothing to do with SE and more with the community wanting something specific from this game. Players spend 10 times more gil in glamour than they do in anything else. That should give you a hint.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

but if that's what the majority of the playerbase feels comfortable with, I'm afraid we all have no choice but to adapt to it.

---

We definitely do not have to adapt to it. And yet we do.

We don't have to adapt to simply having the bar set low and it being lowered because people will continue to be too lazy to meet already watered down challenges.
We DO have to adapt by improving. Players improve by being challenged, or through a self-motivated desire to be better, but if there's no reason or incentive to be better, both SE and players can neither gauge their improvement, nor offer proportional challenge/effort in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

The goal isn't to turn someone into an expert in 5 minutes. It's to take someone who is having trouble with something and help improve it. That can absolutely be done in chat, from first hand experience on both ends of it. Doesn't always work, but sometimes it does, and that success rate is far better than throwing your hands up and declaring it's hopeless so why bother trying.

---

Personally, I don't offer advice to anyone unless they explicitly ask for it or unless someone is blatantly wiping the party with a very specific mechanic. Calling out someone in a group automatically means you are telling them they are doing something wrong, and not everybody takes that well (especially because when that happens you automatically are setting the focus on them, and understandably, some people feel uncomfortable with that). More often than not you'll be meeting with a bitter response or an unpleasant silence, but let's not pretend this is exclusive to FFXIV... this literally happens in every online community and even in real life in general. If you are telling me you can deal with that and that you rarely kick anyone and rather finish the dungeon and move on, then I don't see a problem here because this is as much of a big deal to me than it is for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

From what I gather, you seem to think there's a problem with the average level of this community. I'm not seeing it.

---

Pretty sure I'm close to my posting limit, so I'll leave this here until my limit resets. While you may not see a problem, a lot of us do. Take a look through this thread and you'll see players, vets and sprouts, who have basically said that, yes, we might just have a problem. A week's worth of Rabanastre runs shouldn't produce as many wipes on Mateus and Hashmal as it does. I'll give a pass on the Crystal Tower because, well, for one, it's not exactly obvious how to find it, and two, players coming into the SB expansion likely skipped a lot of the optional content in ARR to get here. That's why I said what I said. That's why I'm defending this position, and that's why I engage in conversation about ideas and suggestions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

I have a few people I know that had flat out told me that: if it doesn't kill you, you don't have to move. And note that these guys are actually raiders.

It presents the problem with the game: it's THAT easy. You don't have to say "oh the game should apply this mechanic, or should have player do xyz" here, those suggestion are meaningless. If you pay attention, there are already enough mechanic hitting you in DUNGEON. The issue is not about there isn't enough mechanic, the issue is most if not all of them are inconsequential. The 2nd box in the new Research facility dungeon actually have a lot of mechanic, and I tell you I have been regular hit by them. But I admit I rarely ever pay attention what they are: BECAUSE I NEVER DIE GETTING HIT by them.

- Other MMO: 1 or 2 mobs loose from the tank and the healer only get a few second to live. Here, you can pretty much do a FFA tanking if it's a single group. Tank's incompetency is an annoyance rather than hinderance.
- Other MMO: you get hit with an ability and most likely you gonna die, or come very close to dying, and put further stress on the healer, who in turn can result in the tank dying. Here you can eat 1 - 2 - 3 AOE and still standing, and it only take 1 AOE heal from the healer to top you off.

You don't need a culture of player to tell or enforce vote kicking, you just need the game enforce consequence for mistake. Do that, and you'll be surprise how fast people become better by themselves. Remember: why should I move, if this hit doesn't kill and feel nothing more than an aint's bite?

---

Players who push their limits will end up performing best even if they may spend seemingly silly amounts of time dead during progression in figuring out those limits. This is true of every MMO I've ever played. Possibly even every FPS, solo RPG, RTS, and TBS as well.

People don't become "better" when a game "enforces consequences"; "good" play simply adjusts to what newly becomes optimal.

Now, I would assume that the game experience would improve -- lending more to impact, tactical weight, and variety, if damage taken were ramped up to a degree. But I'd also rather not see burst healer power reduced altogether, where limited by CDs or the like. Those periodic bursts, as by ability-based healing, should be an allowable rDPS contribution. We should have the decision to soak things. Otherwise, you again reduce impact, tactical weight, and variety.