Built-in Parsers

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Very real situation. Recently recruiting for replacement tank in my static. One guy I talked to vehemently expressed his disgust with the attitude of PF groups. Doing my due diligence to check his logs, I literally find he has the worst of the worst. Come to find out he plays on ps4, he had no idea that his damage was so low. I wanted to give him a shot because he seemed very interested in learning how to be better. After working with him one night, we increased his dps by almost 1000. He still needs a bit more improvement, but how would he have ever known how "bad" he was. What PF is gonna take the time to work with him to get better? None. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet a lot the cancer he ran in to in PF got a hell of lot worse when they saw his numbers lol

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

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Its a good example why a parser is not a bad thing, but you'll still have these people who will cry that parsers are the mos evil thing in the world.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

My bar? It's not going to be the same as everyone else. You'll see people with differing opinions. But sure, my bar is someone claiming to know and cleared the fight cranking out substantially less than they should be for what they're playing with. I also consider if they were lower due to clutch plays such as hard casting a res. I won't fault someone for trying to make the run a success. If they're new to the fight I expect them to suck it up and am more forgiving, especially if they're a guildmate trying to break into the game.

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Thank you for going into detail. :)

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It's a good example why a parser is not a bad thing, but you'll still have these people who will cry that parsers are the most evil thing in the world.

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There is no need to descend into hyperbole just because I and others are against having parsers in the game. The example Whiskybravo gave was of the proper use of parser.

The issue is a number of people feel parsers will be improperly used by a significant number of FFXIV subscribers who will only look at the dps numbers and nothing else.

Furthermore, it is believed this trend of looking at only the "magic dps number" will extend well beyond cutting edge content down to even the beginning dungeons.

These beliefs did not come from thin air. All of us have had experience with games which allowed parsers.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

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Wait... What?! There are third party programs which tell you about upcoming mechanics? o.o
Probably explains a lot! (Like simultanous mechanics happening more and more. Way easier to do your job if you dont need to think about mechanics...)

I guess getting a better grasp on ones own dps is the most significant point.
Why not force everyone to be successful at that certain dummy before joining via tool? Or better: add some option for PF to filter people who have not archieved a dummy-down at that fight.
The last idea would be to give a better idea of how good/bad one is. Just like grades. S for the best, A for good, B for medium. (or something else. Just copied it from hunts)
And have people not being able to eat stuff or use buffing potions. Because that feels to me like cheating. (If one isnt able to beat that dummy unbuffed but barely makes it buffed.) One should be able to beat dummies without food/pots.

Actually that is already happening since those hard dps-checks started. (Heavensward?)
Or what do you think of people wanting to force their tanks and healers to minimize their maintasks in favor of damage? I think it's exactly the same thing. And this is something I'm completely against at. I really prefer that "oldschool" role-system over dps>all. But less and less people seem to care about that.
Nice for people who calculate all of this and show the difference between two parties - one playing more safe, the other "a bit" more reckless. With that more reckless party being faster 2 mins resulting in that being a "pro dps>all"-point.
But one thing is being forgotten. Not everyone is able to hit those 95%+ parses. There are even parties whose members tend to do more mistakes than others; resulting in slower progression. And that should be fine. You cant just throw people out of some content just because of... wait. What exactly? I cant think about a reason for that...

I've seen threads where raiders (or players who are full of themselfes for whatever else reason?) told about their kicks of very bad people who dont care about gear. (ever been new to mmos? did you grasp everything from the first 1-2 months? me not. I started thinking about stats way after I had my first raiding experiences.) Sometimes they even told about having seen their very bad gear (ok - some mid hw-weapon with 63 is REALLY old; but one could be friendly or tell a joke about it instead of insulting them) and how they then started to pull more to force the healer out. Without being the tank. Think about that. DPS pulling another two sets of enemies just to have the healer leave or convincing the tank to kick that healer... And yes. This has been told to have happened in eighter leveling dungeons and daily queues. Far away from any extreme or raidcontent. But the worst point? Those people seemed to be proud about it.
Well I can understand their frustration at some points. I'm not very happy with 80 minute daily queues as well. Or if people are really underperforming (like doing 1/3 of the "usual") or not even trying to understand mechanics which causes them to die. But I dont see it as a reason to insult/harass those people. Why not ask friendly if those knew about their fault(s)? Or if one isnt in the mood to talk to them, why not stay quiet?

I'm sorry. But this game (or its community) is already at that point.
There shouldnt be any further thread coming from built in parsers. Yes the toxic behaviour will (probably) increase. But at least people would get a tool to try and get better on their own.
I dont think they would be needed on every content. Dummies should have them. Maybe even as a PF-Option if that will be shown or not. Making it PF only.

Those common "bigpulls" (door to door) are part of it as well. Some people get nervous easily if they arent sure about their tanking capability and then get dps or healers which eighter seem to want one to go faster or who actually go and pull stuff. The same from the healer. It's not nice to do bigpulls with every healers. There could be some who are new to this. Though I've seen tanks asking their healer if its okay to do bigpulls. Or the healer telling the tank that more is okay if he wants to.

For those who don't want parser. I can understand (from your point of view) that you are afraid getting harrased.
Let me ask you this, you go in a group you find out you got enrage because you are 20% dps lower than the second or even third dps. What is your view on this? Keep going tillit's dead even tho you know it's a dead end? Then my second question is, you end up finding out the dps in your group is 20% lower than you on dps and you get enrage, what would you do? Then the last one is, if a group has amazing dps and can cover for yours, do you feel its okay for them to do it for you, them pulling the gameplay by 85% or more? Or is it unfair for them? Now, imagine they played at your level, would that be fun for you? Or selfish behalf of the 7 others?

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

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Depends. Is that 20% lower still within the required DPS to clear? If so then the issue clearly isn't with the party's DPS and they are failing mechanics. However, a group will likely just kick that 20% less DPS in favor of trying to push out more DPS in hopes of winning. As players are able to push out greater numbers they will gradually expect the overall community to do the same regardless whether or not the content requires it.

If that 20% less DPS puts them below the threshold of what each DPS needs to do in order to clear the encounter then yes, that person should be replaced or guided in a way to help them improve.

If in a group someone is doing amazing DPS and they are below then it again depends. Are they doing well? Are their numbers enough that in the scope of the fight they are doing their fair share or more? Just because someone is doing 5k+ DPS and they are only doing 3k+ DPS doesn't mean they should be shamed or made felt like they are being carried, not if the fight only requires a personal DPS of ~2k. (The numbers are figurative, the situation is my driving point.)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Very real situation. Recently recruiting for replacement tank in my static. One guy I talked to vehemently expressed his disgust with the attitude of PF groups. Doing my due diligence to check his logs, I literally find he has the worst of the worst. Come to find out he plays on ps4, he had no idea that his damage was so low. I wanted to give him a shot because he seemed very interested in learning how to be better. After working with him one night, we increased his dps by almost 1000. He still needs a bit more improvement, but how would he have ever known how "bad" he was. What PF is gonna take the time to work with him to get better? None. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet a lot the cancer he ran in to in PF got a hell of lot worse when they saw his numbers lol

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

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I <3 this reply. While I don't think stubborn people who knowingly join parties out of their league should get carried, they are probably the minority of the low DPS players who get slandered. I stated in a previous reply how much better it would be if people would take the time to identify why a party member is under-performing and let them know. Nicely. You don't have to keep these players in your party but at least dismiss them with friendly advice.

whiskeybravo, your post reminds me of a strong player I used to know. He spent a lot of time forming parties with people who were new to the end game with the express purpose of teaching them how to improve. His mentality was that if more players had someone to help get them up to speed, more parties would be raiding successfully and it would be easier to find good groups.

Some of the pro-parser people I have seen in this thread really do sound mean and cut-throat. Does taking a bit of time to thank an underperforming player for trying and typing a few pointers out before kicking them from your hardcore party really cut into your gaming time so much? If you do it right, that player might learn something and you might gain a valuable party member for later runs.

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Originally Posted by Baingoleth

Does taking a bit of time to thank an underperforming player for trying and typing a few pointers out before kicking them from your hardcore party really cut into your gaming time so much? If you do it right, that player might learn something and you might gain a valuable party member for later runs.

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I've never been in a "hardcore raid party" and I'm all for offering people advice (and in a friendly manner). However, without an official parser we cannot even tell anyone why they need to be removed from the party. In fact, some people in these threads have even said that if anyone is even hinting about someone maybe having used a parser (by saying for example "seems like you need to study your rotation a bit more before you can clear this fight"), they will get immediately reported and risk getting banned. Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group, instead of having to be told (or, in current situation, not told anything at all) and removed by others.

I agree Kikix. Parsers are necessary and this game needs it desperately.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I've never been in a "hardcore raid party" and I'm all for offering people advice (and in a friendly manner). However, without an official parser we cannot even tell anyone why they need to be removed from the party. In fact, some people in these threads have even said that if anyone is even hinting about someone maybe having used a parser (by saying for example "seems like you need to study your rotation a bit more before you can clear this fight"), they will get immediately reported and risk getting banned. Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group, instead of having to be told (or, in current situation, not told anything at all) and removed by others.

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All of my previous replies encourage parsers.

I wasn't thinking about you when I posted that. You seem reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Mepplin

Wait... What?! There are third party programs which tell you about upcoming mechanics? o.o
Probably explains a lot! (Like simultanous mechanics happening more and more. Way easier to do your job if you dont need to think about mechanics...)

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ACT can do that.

What's always been baffling to me about the parser issue is ...
... if they do not want parsing, why are the numbers there at all?

It's like saying -- We know people want to know their damage output, but god damn it you will have to read through an entire log of garbage to find it.
If they don't want parsing, they simply don't need an actual combat log from which you can parse. It serves no other purpose.
People can still see their big numbers pop up on the screen to give them little boosts of endorphin. They just don't have them in log format.

It's a serious conundrum.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

You know youre greedy when you start removing the components that make up a game just so you don't have to spend a tiny fraction of your million(plus some change) monthly subs to hire people that moderate and enforce the tos and general behavioral policies.

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The problem with this mindset is the millions of subs aren't paying for QOL improvements in the game - a fraction of them are. The lion's share of sub money is going toward making stupid junk like FFXV VR Fishing -- cause the Fishing in FFXV was so good that they needed to jump on the VR bandwagon with it. You can't think that our money only goes to improving our lives in FFXIV. It's like thinking all your taxes are there to improve your life personally. It goes to the whole company (or government in my analogy) and gets appropriated as they see fit.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Just because someone is doing 5k+ DPS and they are only doing 3k+ DPS doesn't mean they should be shamed or made felt like they are being carried, not if the fight only requires a personal DPS of ~2k. (The numbers are figurative, the situation is my driving point.)

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That's true. I dont think or ever should let people have the shame on them for doing 3k vs 5k. I mean if a fight reuqires dps to be around 4.8k each and one is doing about 3k, this is counted without great tank and healer dps, the person is lacking the damage it's an issue. However, i feel many people needs to be guided for damage and ofc like someone said already, even if a parser do happens, doesn't mean that a person will actually use it correct and then get better at dpsing. They must be first willing to try get better, which I think many don't do at all, in my honest opinion. But I do think if they do see how ''low'' or ''bad'' they do, they might be feeling shame and try to get better. In worse scenario they might feel so bad and not be encouraged to try anymore.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group

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Heh. How exactly would they do that though? You only want the parser for end game groups.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm talking about PF group where the requirements are clearly set by the content (enrage or other DPS check) and / or party leader ("must bring good enough DPS to beat enrage") for content where those things matter (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). I've clearly specified this in my previous posts too, that this should be the content where the official parser is even added (as an optional feature for premade groups). :)


We're not talking about solo content, but group content, where each individual's performance has a direct and major influence on the whole team's performance, to the point of the team being unable to clear content because of one individual member. Because of this, everyone in the team should know each other's numbers. And once again, only in the content where this is the case: Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. And as an optional feature for premade groups.

Again, I think I'm probably argued against by people whom this suggestion wouldn't even concern in any way, since they're not even doing this content in the first place. So why not let those people who do the content and need this and want this to have the option of using it?

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You and others also keep pointing out the usefulness of the parser for learning so...? Those people are kinda just SoL huh?

Isolating its use is a no go.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

And as I never said I'm anti-parse (i'm pro), I also never said someone shouldn't get called out, nor did I say they should aggressively get called out for that matter. I just said it's going to happen. It just doesn't happen now so much because the first rule of it is you don't talk about it.

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And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

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Originally Posted by Baingoleth

I <3 this reply. While I don't think stubborn people who knowingly join parties out of their league should get carried, they are probably the minority of the low DPS players who get slandered. I stated in a previous reply how much better it would be if people would take the time to identify why a party member is under-performing and let them know. Nicely. You don't have to keep these players in your party but at least dismiss them with friendly advice.

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The irony is a lot of people will depending on the type of PF you join. What tends to happen is someone joins a farm or enrage party, cannot keep up and then complains when players in said party get frustrated with them. That all said, Whiskey's post highlights the precise reason parses are invaluable for self-improvement. You just aren't going to see the differences between raid utility, buffs and how best to utilize them.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Depends. Is that 20% lower still within the required DPS to clear? If so then the issue clearly isn't with the party's DPS and they are failing mechanics. However, a group will likely just kick that 20% less DPS in favor of trying to push out more DPS in hopes of winning. As players are able to push out greater numbers they will gradually expect the overall community to do the same regardless whether or not the content requires it.

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Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

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Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Heh. How exactly would they do that though? You only want the parser for end game groups.

You and others also keep pointing out the usefulness of the parser for learning so...?

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I don't understand what do you think I'm saying? I am talking about endgame groups. And people joining them without being able to clear the content they're joining (in cases when the group is aiming for clear, not practice). I'm fairly certain it's extremely rare to see a person performing so miserably they're unable to clear a leveling dungeon or an expert dungeon or another story fight (DPS wise anyway, of course they can fail all mechanics, but in that case it's pretty obvious for everyone involved). Parsers are not needed for story content (or anything else than Savage, Ultimate or extremes).

Of course in Savage and Extreme learning parties, where the group has no intention of clearing in the first place, even lower-than-acceptable DPS should not be a reason to remove a person from a group, in my opinion (as long as one person is not holding the group back from actually winning). And in learning this content (and Ultimate), specifically optimising one's DPS in said content, parser is an extremely useful tool.

Edit: I'll try to make my stance more clear: if a person joins a clear party for extremes / Savage / Ultimate, I will expect them to be able to do good enough DPS so that the party can actually clear the fight (while also handling the mechanics well enough, of course). If a person is continuously failing to do that and is holding the team back (and not because of other party members), I think it's perfectly alright to tell them their performance isn't up to the required level just yet and they should get some practice. In a situation like this, when whole group is handing the mechanics correctly, there aren't deaths, and the only thing that's killing the group is enrage, a group parser is really handly, because it shows who's (continuously!) unable to carry their own weight. But if it's a learning party, and the phase the group is learning has no enrage to wipe to, I couldn't care less about anyone's DPS (since they simply can't hold the group back). In this case though, seeing your own numbers - and being able to compare them to the rest of your group - is really useful, since while you're learning the fight itself, you can also learn to optimise your DPS performance in it, thus being able to carry your weight when it's time for you to join the clear parties.

Just last week I experienced example number one, where I was joining a couple of OS4 clear parties with a DD (who I didn't know at all) who was continuously pulling over 1K less DPS than anyone else. Those groups would have been unable to clear the fight with that person even if everyone had handled all mechanics 100% perfectly (because it was everyone else's first clear too and people were struggling with handling their own part, unable to carry others). Too bad they seemed to have no clue and no one was able to tell them they need to check their rotation for the fight in addition to knowing the mechanics. I would have much rather told that person nicely that they're doing really well with the mechanics but need to optimise their DPS better before joining another clear party than just watch them being silently kicked from the two groups I was with them. That might have actually helped them, I doubt the silent kicks did...

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

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I never said that. You insinuated publicly available parses would essentially open the flood gates for toxic behavior. It won't, because people who are toxic don't need to bring up ACT to go off on someone. If I really want to call anyone out, I'll just say "I watched your rotation and you're doing it wrong." They can say I'm parsing all they fancy but GMs won't do a thing unless you specifically mention numbers. Believe me, I have seen some very passive aggressive to downright hostile responses yet they aren't bringing up parse numbers even if it's obvious they have them. Just a few weeks back someone accused a friend of buying her Savage clears because she kept dying in Ala Mhigo due to lag spikes. Like I said, you don't need to run a parse to be a jerk nor will parses necessarily make people jerks.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

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Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

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For the precise reasons I said. Seven other players have to play better to make up the difference for someone who either isn't playing their job properly or messing up. Now I wouldn't necessarily boot them if they aren't dying, but I also can't entirely blame people who don't like carrying. Once again, 20% isn't insignificant. I average roughly 5k+ on Samurai. Using that as a benchmark, you're giving up 1k+ on a job whose sole contribution is high damage. Furthermore, your dichotomy takes away all accountability for personal improvement. DPS checks are generally lax in Savage, at least recently. So basically, do mechanics and if your DPS isn't good, someone else will make up the difference. Why is that acceptable? If all four DPS asked like that, you may not have the DPS anymore.

Now if the group is failing mechanics, you address that issue first. And most people will. I just dislike the mentality of "do the bare minimum." Not to mention, your scenario doesn't really work because if another player can slot in and suddenly you have a clear, damage was the issue.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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No, they don't, those 7 other players are not making up any difference. If each DPS needs to do 4400 personal DPS in order to safely clear the encounter's DPS requirements and 3 of those DPS do 5500 and 1 does 4400. Where are they making up the difference? Could that 1 DPS improve and get to 5500 like the rest? Sure, but why would you kick that player when they are doing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not to mention, your scenario doesn't really work because if another player can slot in and suddenly you have a clear, damage was the issue.

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That wasn't my scenario though. Conversely, if the group slots another player and they still don't clear then the damage was not the issue, despite that player before doing their fair share of the DPS.

This is exactly why I don't do "end game content," in this game.

If you want/need to be ranked play a MOBA or a FPS.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

No

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Problem with players in this game is because they get told it's fine to keep being shit. When it's clearly not. You keep breeding those bad players, once more and more players tell others it's fine to be ''carried''.
It's like having a bully talking shit and since you are his or her friend, you keep saying it's fine. When do people actually learn to get better? Being told? Absoluttely, the second thing is, they need to be told in good manner. If it does happen and their response is bad, it's their issue and not ours. Earlier I was in a susano extreme where i was second dps as tank, why is a TANK second dps?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

This is exactly why I don't do "end game content," in this game.

If you want/need to be ranked play a MOBA or a FPS.

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You don't need to be ''ranked'' or ''hardcore'' to even raid in this game. There are dps checks, but there is a difference being at 3.5k dps vs 4k.

I will never understand the people that aren't willing to learn their job, but want to learn savage or extreme trials. :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I never said that. You insinuated publicly available parses would essentially open the flood gates for toxic behavior. It won't, because people who are toxic don't need to bring up ACT to go off on someone. If I really want to call anyone out, I'll just say "I watched your rotation and you're doing it wrong." They can say I'm parsing all they fancy but GMs won't do a thing unless you specifically mention numbers. Believe me, I have seen some very passive aggressive to downright hostile responses yet they aren't bringing up parse numbers even if it's obvious they have them. Just a few weeks back someone accused a friend of buying her Savage clears because she kept dying in Ala Mhigo due to lag spikes. Like I said, you don't need to run a parse to be a jerk nor will parses necessarily make people jerks.

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*sigh*
I never said an official parser would suddenly make people more "toxic". I said dps call outs would happen more and openly. You even acknowledge that as things are now you can indeed get into trouble talking about someones dps numbers, that has a chilling effect. Not every silent kick is for the giggles.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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LOL Oh man. You really are a sadist aren't you? Have you ever actually tried to learn how to properly play your class with constant wipes and waiting around to refill your ranks? You really want people to be learning their stuff under those conditions? That's just pure evil mate. You need a stable safe environment to properly experiment and perfect before you head into the chaos to make it work. Parsers need to be on outside of just endgame content.

Parsers outside of endgame are great for learning. Parsers in endgame are great for seeing performance. You don't just up and decide to run a marathon out of the blue and not have a heart attack. You spend time training for it. Don't abuse your party mates and waste their time learning to play your class while everyone is trying to learn the fight.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Problem with players in this game is because they get told it's fine to keep being shit. When it's clearly not. You keep breeding those bad players, once more and more players tell others it's fine to be ''carried''.
It's like having a bully talking shit and since you are his or her friend, you keep saying it's fine. When do people actually learn to get better? Being told? Absoluttely, the second thing is, they need to be told in good manner. If it does happen and their response is bad, it's their issue and not ours. Earlier I was in a susano extreme where i was second dps as tank, why is a TANK second dps?

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"No". You replace my text with "No". Okay, you know what, I may not be seeing eye to eye with Bourne right now but I can at least respect her responses, I honestly can't extend the same to you at the moment.

As far as your comment goes though, where in my comment am I saying players should be told they are doing great when their numbers don't even meet the "requirement" to clear?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

No, they don't, those 7 other players are not making up any difference. If each DPS needs to do 4400 personal DPS in order to safely clear the encounter's DPS requirements and 3 of those DPS do 5500 and 1 does 4400. Where are they making up the difference? Could that 1 DPS improve and get to 5500 like the rest? Sure, but why would you kick that player when they are doing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden?

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Yes, they are. Now the fight takes longer because one player isn't performing comparably to the others. If it's a question of ilvl difference or lack of experience in the fight, then it's understandable. If they simply can't be bothered to improve, why should other players have to carry anyone? I reiterate, if all seven other players have this mentality, you may no longer meet the DPS checks or have to deal with mechanics you could otherwise skip. Everyone should be held to an equal stand. You blatantly admit one player gets to skate by doing the bare minimum provided DPS checks are met. I just can't agree with that mindset.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

No, they don't, those 7 other players are not making up any difference. If each DPS needs to do 4400 personal DPS in order to safely clear the encounter's DPS requirements and 3 of those DPS do 5500 and 1 does 4400. Where are they making up the difference? Could that 1 DPS improve and get to 5500 like the rest? Sure, but why would you kick that player when they are doing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden?

That wasn't my scenario though. Conversely, if the group slots another player and they still don't clear then the damage was not the issue, despite that player before doing their fair share of the DPS.

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There are two potential paths for your “scenario”: a DPS pushing 4,400 DPS who is trying their best, and a person pushing 4,400 DPS who is not even trying.

It’s different if the person with 4,400 DPS is trying their hardest to push out the most damage they can do. Are they undergeared compared to the rest of the group? Are they eating food? Using pots? Trying their absolute hardest? Then that’s fine. But are they not eating food, not using pots, and just, in general, being lazy about their performance? That’s not okay.

If the player refuses to improve their performance, though, and is okay with just being the “bare minimum,” if the rest of the group would rather have someone that is not okay with just being the “bare minimum”—someone else that pushes themselves to do the absolute best they can do—then they are allowed to kick the person who is choosing to be okay with, for lack of a more eloquent phrase, being carried by the rest of the group. Now, most would hopefully—if these built-in parsers were public—say something, and try to bring the person’s attention to their performance, and hopefully prompt some sort of effort of trying. But if the person still refuses to try, why should the other 7 carry them? Why should they deal with a person who doesn’t want to try?

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

I will never understand the people that aren't willing to learn their job, but want to learn savage or extreme trials. :thinking:

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"Why learn when you can get carried?" would be what those people are really thinking.

Part of me does wish this game had a built-in parser. Sadly, there are those who will use it as a tool to boot people because they think they could do more dps or whatever rather than use it as a tool for (self) improvement.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

LOL Oh man. You really are a sadist aren't you? Have you ever actually tried to learn how to properly play your class with constant wipes and waiting around to refill your ranks? You really want people to be learning their stuff under those conditions? That's just pure evil mate. You need a stable safe environment to properly experiment and perfect before you head into the chaos to make it work. Parsers need to be on outside of just endgame content.

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You've completely lost me. I've learned every single piece of endgame content in this game (outside of Ultimate which I haven't even tried yet) in a group that's been parsed, step by step. I don't understand what you refer to by constant wipes and refilling my ranks - I specifically said people shouldn't be replaced because of DPS from learning parties since it's not really possible to be holding those back (unless the learning is about a phase with enrage).

Edit: Did you somehow understand that I'd advice people to learn their basic rotations in extreme or Savage fights? Of course not, that's what SSS dummies and other training dummies are for (and SSS already works as a parser for that). I'm talking about learning to optimise your rotation for a specific fight. That can't be done outside of that specific fight, and parser is a great help in that.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

You don't need to be ''ranked'' or ''hardcore'' to even raid in this game. There are dps checks, but there is a difference being at 3.5k dps vs 4k.

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The "check" is when you clear the content. A parse is used to blame others. It's the same story in every MMO, from the start of MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The "check" is when you clear the content. A parse is used to blame others. It's the same story in every MMO, from the start of MMOs.

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A parse can be used to find out why the "check" isn't being met.

It's all a matter of how the tool is used. The tool itself does nothing wrong (barring it not being set up properly, but that's user error :p).

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, they are. Now the fight takes longer because one player isn't performing comparably to the others. If it's a question of ilvl difference or lack of experience in the fight, then it's understandable. If they simply can't be bothered to improve, why should other players have to carry anyone? I reiterate, if all seven other players have this mentality, you may no longer meet the DPS checks or have to deal with mechanics you could otherwise skip. Everyone should be held to an equal stand. You blatantly admit one player gets to skate by doing the bare minimum provided DPS checks are met.

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If they can't be bothered to improve then that is a static issue and the player should talk with the static and if they want the player to improve then they should improve or find another static.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

"As far as your comment goes though, where in my comment am I saying players should be told they are doing great when their numbers don't even meet the "requirement" to clear?

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I replaced your text with ''no'' because I had a limit to post and it was replying to your whole post.
And also no you havent, but I simply tell you what others have told you and I agree with them. I will say it again, bad players are breeding faster the more people with ''it's fine to be 2k lower dps than the rest, it's just a game'' What about people come home from 8 hours work, do other stuff for family or do hobbies then come back home to play, then suddenly some dude decides to play on a troll level and keeps wiping or enraging boss because he/she can't seem to do the requirement for the boss? I honestly think it's unfair. Go ahead and say it's just a game. Time however isn't just a ''game'' people can play this game on a strict schelude too, don't think it's only about that guy who can't seem to pull it off.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The "check" is when you clear the content. A parse is used to blame others. It's the same story in every MMO, from the start of MMOs.

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So whos fault is when 3 dps does 4.5k dps and 1 does 2.5k?
The parser tells people who can't meet the check, how else are we going to find out? Just blindly accuse people? The ''blame'' you speak off, isn't really blaming. It's telling them they aren't meeting the check. You are legit saying it's fine for people to keep wiping others.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I replaced your text with ''no'' because I had a limit to post and it was replying to your whole post.
And also no you havent, but I simply tell you what others have told you and I agree with them. I will say it again, bad players are breeding faster the more people with ''it's fine to be 2k lower dps than the rest, it's just a game'' What about people come home from 8 hours work, do other stuff for family or do hobbies then come back home to play, then suddenly some dude decides to play on a troll level and keeps wiping or enraging boss because he/she can't seem to do the requirement for the boss? I honestly think it's unfair. Go ahead and say it's just a game. Time however isn't just a ''game'' people can play this game on a strict schelude too, don't think it's only about that guy who can't seem to pull it off.

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If someone is 2k lower dps than the rest and the content is cleared where is the issue? I could understand if in your static that person was consistently 2k below with no signs of trying to improve. But like in the original comment if that person was 2k lower but their DPS was enough (raid dps requirement split evenly among the dps, along with tank rotations)to make the enrage but the enrage was still hit, why kick them? why replace them when clearly it wasn't the issue. An actual static would evaluate the situation, a PF group I don't see doing that, they would simply kick the lowest DPS and look for another.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The "check" is when you clear the content. A parse is used to blame others. It's the same story in every MMO, from the start of MMOs.

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Not all DPS checks are “you cleared the content.” Take Shinryu Ex: every time the Heart spawns, you have to kill it. Otherwise, you’re dead. Mini-DPS check. The little dragon heads is a “healing” check—don’t heal them up? You’re dead. Not all DPS checks are just “clearing” the content.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

If someone is 2k lower dps than the rest and the content is cleared where is the issue?

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. 98% of the content can be cleared with 1 less man in a group. For example 7 can clear 8 man content. Does it mean it's fine? Now imagine you had those 3 dps on pair with that 2k lower dps person, would you clear it? No. If everyone had the mentality of yours, none of the badies would even get a clear. Let's get real.

Let me ask you this, 3 dps is as low as that person whos doing 2k less than everyone else, would you clear it? Yes or no. Then you explain to me why.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 98% of the content can be cleared with 1 less man in a group. For example 7 can clear 8 man content. Does it mean it's fine? Now imagine you had those 3 dps on pair with that 2k lower dps person, would you clear it? No. If everyone had the mentality of yours, none of the badies would even get a clear. Let's get real.

Let me ask you this, 3 dps is as low as that person whos doing 2k less than everyone else, would you clear it? Yes or no. Then you explain to me why.

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Yes, they would. If all 4 DPS had the same DPS as the person in question they would clear. That is the entire basis of my comment. If all 4 players had the same DPS they would make the DPS checks. It just so happens that 3 of them are performing better DPS wise. If you need (using low numbers) 1000 from A, 1000 from B, 1000 from C and 1000 from D to clear and you have 2100 from A, 2050 from B, 1900 from C and 1100 from D you should clear it. Is D underperforming DPS wise compared to the rest of the group? Absolutely. Are they doing more than the required DPS? Yes. Should they improve? Certainly. However, if they hit enrage clearly it isn't because of the DPS. Maybe people are dying? Maybe someone is messing up a mechanic too many times? Not the point. Now in a static yes you would ask that 1100 to improve, of course, but you would see what is causing the enrage because everyone is decent if not well above the DPS requirements. I don't see a PF group doing that. They'd simply kick the low DPS and replace them.

And I'm being told people in here would too, simply because they feel that 1100 isn't doing their fair share, which I don't agree with at all. If all DPS needed to be 3000 and he was only doing 1100 so the rest had to do exponentially more, then yes I would absolutely consider that 1100 being carried and should leave that group without delay.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Yes, they would. If all 4 DPS had the same DPS as the person in question they would clear.

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They wouldn't if dps requirement would be lets say 5k each dps, or slightly lower, this is without healer dps and tanks doing a lot. Then last dps is at 2.5k dps or 3k. They could do it if both healers did 1k dps. But you know how the community works, dps healers = nothx. Tanks are tanks so spam aggro combo. If all 4 had 5k dps it been a easily clear, but lets wrap it around and say all 4 of them had 2.5k dps, would they clear? Nope.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

They wouldn't if dps requirement would be lets say 5k each dps, or slightly lower, this is without healer dps and tanks doing a lot. Then last dps is at 2.5k dps or 3k. They could do it if both healers did 1k dps. But you know how the community works, dps healers = nothx. Tanks are tanks so spam aggro combo. If all 4 had 5k dps it been a easily clear, but lets wrap it around and say all 4 of them had 2.5k dps, would they clear? Nope.

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Yes, if the DPS requirement is 5k personal DPS from each of the 4 DPS and someone isn't hitting that then yes they are underperforming and either need to improve or leave the group. Could the healers make up for it? Yes, but I would consider that being carried since the DPS isn't doing at least their share of the work.

And yes, your second example none would clear as none of them are meeting even the minimum DPS requirement. I can agree with you there, even though that is far from the situation I was arguing.