#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Falkyron

There are a lot of issue with healers right now, but using that Xenos video as an example is not the right call.
If you have a contender for the best warrior tank in the world cycling defensive cooldowns, and a team of savage raiding streamers, and you're going into an early-expansion story dungeon, then you don't need a healer. The reasoning is that people doing their jobs this well are rewarded by allowing the healer to DPS for the entire dungeon, and having the healer as a safety net rather than a necessity.

You will still "need a healer" in any dungeon group that isn't performing well, and that's not just on the tank; all three others in your group have to be above par. If your DPS is not up to scratch, the delays in finishing the pulls will force the tank to stagger mitigation more or cause them to run out of mitigation, depending on how bad the situation is.

Yes, if all three of your party members are avoiding unnecessary damage, using their self-healing, and the tank is overperforming, you're meant to adjust by focusing on DPS. It's legit a part of the game. Focus on other issues; this Xenos one is the wrong hill to die on.

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This isnt the first time hard content has been cleared without a healer and Xeno is hardly the only one to do it. He's just the most notable because of his large platform. This is a problem that's been going on for and getting worse for years.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

There shouldn't be a single reason on earth that people want one playerbase to suffer so the others can thrive. That's how we got here in the first place.

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If you think a few nerfs to tanks, for a function that isn't core to role, means they will suffer. Just imagine how much healers have been suffering for years by having the core of their role eroded more and more.

And a PLD didn't have any ogcd/inherent selfheals before EW. And did PLD players it really "suffer" at ARR, HW, SB and ShB? Do DRK player really suffer because they can't easily soloheal through all of the biggest pulls in dungeons? Did the lack of any ogcd team heals make tanks suffer before EW?

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

Yes, casual content is so easy nowadays that you don't need healing, but this has been true throughout most of the game like Xeno said.

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The performance of some tanks self and team heals were greatly increased in EW. And I've mained healer for most of the game. The role has never been so obviously unneeded as now in easier content. Tanks keep getting more ogcd selfheals faster then healers. And before EW tanks didn't have strong ogcd team heals at all.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

Healers are feeling this way because they feel like they're not necessary in these settings of content. Instead of deleting defensive abilities, why not make healing more interesting on an encounter to encounter basis? Make it so Esuna has a purpose in current content. Utilize debuffs like Zombie so healers have to pay attention when to control their heals. Attach color coded cleansing effects to healing options, have bosses grant more debuffs, and make esuna the catch-all damage negative cleansing ability with cast time.

If they go this route, they don't have to change how easy the current content is, they don't have to mess with solo duty balance, and they can slowly retroactively update dungeons if they want without hurting any other role.

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Cleansing is an additional mechanic that has was removed from the healer role. It should be restored, but that itself wont fix the extreme dilution of the core mechanic of the healer role.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Well good news, Mr. Happy called the healer strike is the dumbest thing he's ever seen. https://youtu.be/v1pheogEplw?t=379

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finally hes starting to grow a backbone hopefully he can actually start talking about how bad bard is because he for sure knows how terrible that job is to play.

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Originally Posted by Falkyron

There are a lot of issue with healers right now, but using that Xenos video as an example is not the right call.
If you have a contender for the best warrior tank in the world cycling defensive cooldowns, and a team of savage raiding streamers, and you're going into an early-expansion story dungeon, then you don't need a healer. The reasoning is that people doing their jobs this well are rewarded by allowing the healer to DPS for the entire dungeon, and having the healer as a safety net rather than a necessity.

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He himself said he was playing like garbage and anyone can do this, if mouse clicking their abilities and slotting decimate mid dungeon is skillful play we still have a problem.

I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic.

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Originally Posted by Falkyron

There are a lot of issue with healers right now, but using that Xenos video as an example is not the right call.
If you have a contender for the best warrior tank in the world cycling defensive cooldowns, and a team of savage raiding streamers, and you're going into an early-expansion story dungeon, then you don't need a healer. The reasoning is that people doing their jobs this well are rewarded by allowing the healer to DPS for the entire dungeon, and having the healer as a safety net rather than a necessity.

You will still "need a healer" in any dungeon group that isn't performing well, and that's not just on the tank; all three others in your group have to be above par. If your DPS is not up to scratch, the delays in finishing the pulls will force the tank to stagger mitigation more or cause them to run out of mitigation, depending on how bad the situation is.

Yes, if all three of your party members are avoiding unnecessary damage, using their self-healing, and the tank is overperforming, you're meant to adjust by focusing on DPS. It's legit a part of the game. Focus on other issues; this Xenos one is the wrong hill to die on.

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hey I have probably 8 hours of warrior total in EW. I cleared all the latest dungeons solo its not hard to cycle CDs you just have to have the ability to read your tooltips.

Never been a better time to speak up. Healer gameplay in FF14 is trash. It wasn't always this way. Others have said what I would say. This post is simply signing on to the petition that healer gameplay is deplorable and if we don't let it be known then they will never fix it.

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Originally Posted by Falkyron

There are a lot of issue with healers right now, but using that Xenos video as an example is not the right call.
If you have a contender for the best warrior tank in the world cycling defensive cooldowns, and a team of savage raiding streamers, and you're going into an early-expansion story dungeon, then you don't need a healer. The reasoning is that people doing their jobs this well are rewarded by allowing the healer to DPS for the entire dungeon, and having the healer as a safety net rather than a necessity.

You will still "need a healer" in any dungeon group that isn't performing well, and that's not just on the tank; all three others in your group have to be above par. If your DPS is not up to scratch, the delays in finishing the pulls will force the tank to stagger mitigation more or cause them to run out of mitigation, depending on how bad the situation is.

Yes, if all three of your party members are avoiding unnecessary damage, using their self-healing, and the tank is overperforming, you're meant to adjust by focusing on DPS. It's legit a part of the game. Focus on other issues; this Xenos one is the wrong hill to die on.

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Except in this case Falkyron: You are ALWAYS better off taking a Red Player than a Green one. Where is the scenario where you want the healer but no tank? Or a healer and tank but no DPS? You're telling me that the situation is exceptionally liimited and thus we're all bitching about a technicality...but there is no correlary to the other jobs. If 100% of the time it's good to take a Blue player and 100% of the time it's good to take a Red player and 95% of the time it's good to take a green player there's STILL a problem.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade878

This isnt the first time hard content has been cleared without a healer and Xeno is hardly the only one to do it. He's just the most notable because of his large platform. This is a problem that's been going on for and getting worse for years.

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And...so...

Finish that statement...

"and so this is not a reason to fix it?"

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

He himself said he was playing like garbage and anyone can do this, if mouse clicking their abilities and slotting decimate mid dungeon is skillful play we still have a problem.

I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic.

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Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

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Originally Posted by Illydth

Except in this case Falkyron: You are ALWAYS better off taking a Red Player than a Green one. Where is the scenario where you want the healer but no tank? Or a healer and tank but no DPS? You're telling me that the situation is exceptionally liimited and thus we're all bitching about a technicality...but there is no correlary to the other jobs. If 100% of the time it's good to take a Blue player and 100% of the time it's good to take a Red player and 95% of the time it's good to take a green player there's STILL a problem.

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Gonna post this again. Tanks suffer from the same "unnecessary" existence as healers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O4JGCC0g4

It's a leveling dungeon. It's not an extreme, it's not savage, it's not a criterion dungeon, it's the peak of casual content. You're over-fixating.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Big angry bald man: I understand why people are upset.

Friendly happy guy: That’s the dumbest f-being thing.


This is why Xeno has 1000 times more respect from me than Happy does. And not because of this either. It’s just funny how you can see the type of people creators are through their personas.

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I dont like Xeno but I will give it to him that nowadays he seems far more passionate then the game then Mr Happy is, I get retired vibes from him now. I do like that Baldy will talk smack about the game unlike the majority of the content creators and thats probably the main good thing I think about him.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I dont like Xeno but I will give it to him that nowadays he seems far more passionate then the game then Mr Happy is, I get retired vibes from him now. I do like that Baldy will talk smack about the game unlike the majority of the content creators and thats probably the main good thing I think about him.

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Xeno decided to call Covid an "excuse" for why there was only one Ultimate during Shadowbringers so as far as I'm concerned he's worse. I've seen his general content and he's just obnoxious overblown airbag of a person.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

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Are you actually arguing that an entire role SHOULD be made obsolete simply because there are skilled players in the group? Understand your statement: Roles are supposed to have clear identities...your argument is that the healing role should NOT have a clear identity from the DPS role or Tank role assuming that the players in that role have enough skill?

If that's so, were is my threat acquisition button or my 100% Equivalent Red DPS? Are you telling me that I'm not doing the same damage a rogue is doign because i'm not pressing my buttons fast enough?

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Originally Posted by Illydth

Are you actually arguing that an entire role SHOULD be made obsolete simply because there are skilled players in the group? Understand your statement: Roles are supposed to have clear identities...your argument is that the healing role should NOT have a clear identity from the DPS role or Tank role assuming that the players in that role have enough skill?

If that's so, were is my threat acquisition button or my 100% Equivalent Red DPS? Are you telling me that I'm not doing the same damage a rogue is doign because i'm not pressing my buttons fast enough?

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Where did I say that I think roles SHOULD be obsolete? I said: "Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player."

If your irate state of mind is hampering your ability to read or discuss this honestly perhaps you should go outside for a while.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Gonna post this again. Tanks suffer from the same "unnecessary" existence as healers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O4JGCC0g4

It's a leveling dungeon. It's not an extreme, it's not savage, it's not a criterion dungeon, it's the peak of casual content. You're over-fixating.

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Re-read my posts, it's not about if it's POSSIBLE to do content without a certain class...of course it's POSSIBLE. It's about what is the best way to do content. There are 2 pillars: Success Rate and Efficiency. Tanks and DPS classes contribute to both Success Rate and Efficiency while healer classes do not contribute to Efficiency, only success rate...thus as content ease increases need for one role in the game decreases while that is not the same for other roles. THat's a design problem.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

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That is why an effective trinity system need pretty extreme differences in performance in the unique qualities of roles. So healers needs to do most heals by far, a tank needs to mitigate most damage by far, and a dps needs to do most damage by far. If the heals from healers do 4 times more HPS on a tank then the tank's selfheals, even in the situation that works best for tank selfheals, there is a lot of room to lower difficulty while still requiring all roles for do the content optimally.

And dungeons have a rather clever dynamic difficulty. The pulls are the part that requires most healing and mitigation. If a few of the most casual healers can't keep a tank alive during the biggest pulls... well nobody is forcing you to do double pulls.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Where did I say that I think roles SHOULD be obsolete? I said: "Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player."

If your irate state of mind is hampering your ability to read or discuss this honestly perhaps you should go outside for a while.

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If you aren't arguing that classes SHOULD be obsolete, what was your response intended for? The post you jumped in on stated "I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic." - and you choose to post a contrairian response.

I don't thikn i'm deluded in assuming your post is in disagreement with that statement since you posted in disagreement with that statement. How else would you like this thread to take your response to "I don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete?"

Or are you going to nit-pick the words "party member" instead of "class" or "role"?

My favorite take away from xeno's vid was that 1T3D was easily doable for normal players.

I hope to see a mass of pfs for 1T3D so we can all benefit from faster runs and less ques.

Regardless of what freecure enjoyers will say, one button rotations are stupid as hell and all the healers need some sort of rework to their dps kits. 5 dot scholar was peak healer design

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Gonna post this again. Tanks suffer from the same "unnecessary" existence as healers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O4JGCC0g4

It's a leveling dungeon. It's not an extreme, it's not savage, it's not a criterion dungeon, it's the peak of casual content. You're over-fixating.

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The lack of a tank is very apparent when someone literally dies and they have to dip into GCD heals just to keep the survivors alive, this is objectively not the preferred way to clear the dungeon, you have not presented "the scenario where you want the healer but no tank."

the issues we talk about (Broil gaming, bloated oGCDs, tank self sustain) are also still true in Savage or Ultimate so... the one hyper-fixating is you

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Originally Posted by Illydth

Re-read my posts, it's not about if it's POSSIBLE to do content without a certain class...of course it's POSSIBLE. It's about what is the best way to do content. There are 2 pillars: Success Rate and Efficiency. Tanks and DPS classes contribute to both Success Rate and Efficiency while healer classes do not contribute to Efficiency, only success rate...thus as content ease increases need for one role in the game decreases while that is not the same for other roles. THat's a design problem.

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That's not what you quoted the first time, hence my confusion. Perhaps you'll do better to be more accurate in what post you're responding to in the future.

Again, this is a leveling dungeon, the most casual of casual content, and has always been possible to complete with sub-optimal or unorthodox parties. Basing an argument about performance in a leveling dungeon is foolish.

As to your argument, again, having 3 dps and a tank, or 3 dps and a healer have about the same level of success AND efficiency. The problem really isn't with the classes, but with the dungeon itself being easy, which brings me back to my original point. You're arguing about dungeons being too easy.

On the side, "the best way to do content" is going to ultimately be subjective, as how people value that differs drastically.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

The lack of a tank is very apparent when someone literally dies and they have to dip into GCD heals just to keep the survivors alive, this is objectively not the preferred way to clear the dungeon, you have not presented "the scenario where you want the healer but no tank."

the issues we talk about (Broil gaming, bloated oGCDs, tank self sustain) are also still true in Savage or Ultimate so... the one hyper-fixating is you

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I already said that wanting a more involved damage dealing kit is valid, you're arguing with and insulting me for agreeing with you on that point. Perhaps you should take a break from the internet.

As for a healer having to dip into resources when there isn't tank, what do you think the Warrior or any other tank does when they don't have a healer?

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Originally Posted by Illydth

Re-read my posts, it's not about if it's POSSIBLE to do content without a certain class...of course it's POSSIBLE. It's about what is the best way to do content. There are 2 pillars: Success Rate and Efficiency. Tanks and DPS classes contribute to both Success Rate and Efficiency while healer classes do not contribute to Efficiency, only success rate...thus as content ease increases need for one role in the game decreases while that is not the same for other roles. THat's a design problem.

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Then the easiest way I could think of to fix that is giving healers a lot more ally buffs so they can be more of a force multiplier.

Healers either need more heal checks or they should have buffs they throw out to party members all the time when they aren't healing and don't need to contribute to a DPS check.

But the game is kinda stuck in it's ways.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

As for a healer having to dip into resources when there isn't tank, what do you think the Warrior or any other tank does when they don't have a healer?

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Healers dip into healer resources... so Tanks would dip into Tank resources. Mitigation.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Is "strike" really such a difficult concept to understand. A strike looks to affect things without quitting (either your job or a game).

And you can't decide of the strike is going to do anything or not, that is up to the devs. Why would anyone believe your predictions?

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because they ccan do nothing about it and youre still giving them money, youre still playing the game, in content where skill doesnt matter anyways like df people will just switch to healer for the roulette anyways

DF might matter, because thats where healing can be hard, but again, how many people witll switch just from lack of competition

when union mmembers have a strike at work they dont go to work , when theres a boycott for a company they dont buy their products

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Originally Posted by GangWeed

Regardless of what freecure enjoyers will say, one button rotations are stupid as hell and all the healers need some sort of rework to their dps kits. 5 dot scholar was peak healer design

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im inclined to agree but i doubt thatll ever com back unless they fix the buff/debuff limit

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Healers dip into healer resources... so Tanks would dip into Tank resources. Mitigation.

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Yes, that's the point I'm making. Arguing that healers have to dip into resources when the tank dies is silly when a tank does the exact same thing.

So assuming the strike succeeds and RDM and SMN lose Res and Heals, and tanks lose self healing, are you healers willing to accept that wipes and deaths will solely land on your shoulders and be grounds for dismissal from duties?

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Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

So assuming the strike succeeds and RDM and SMN lose Res and Heals, and tanks lose self healing

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BLU: MY TIME HAS COME

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

because they ccan do nothing about it and youre still giving them money, youre still playing the game, in content where skill doesnt matter anyways like df people will just switch to healer for the roulette anyways

DF might matter, because thats where healing can be hard, but again, how many people witll switch just from lack of competition

when union mmembers have a strike at work they dont go to work , when theres a boycott for a company they dont buy their products

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I see the answer to my question is a firm "yes". This is not a boycot. And the concept of a strike more ambiguous, it doesn't require formal system with unions and such. If I go on a food strike, I don't have to join a union.

And again, you are not the person that gets to decide "what will happen". The strike is sending a message already, that's working as intended. And it's reaching people outside of the forums. I've seen many people do their first ever post in this thread.

Healer is the role for story enjoyers, and therefore needs to be simple and straightforward so that there's a role for everyone. If you want a challenge play DPS.

Yeah I just don't trust duty finder healers to do anything right, sorry. To be fair, I don't trust duty finder DPS to do anything right either. And, surprise surprise, I don't trust duty finder tanks to do anything right. I need to fill one of those roles, so I go tank, because I know that it's not going to be an instant wipe when the healer eats too much glue and dies to the most obviously telegraphed attack I've ever seen in any game, ever. Maybe the ones of you complaining who are not doing higher end content are good "for being casuals," but I'm sorry, the general skill I see from anyone in roulettes is just nonexistent. I get surprised when I queue into seat of sacrifice and the party doesn't wipe to the "just press one button" mech because I've seen it happen so often.

This whole thing is just funny as hell...
the jobs are balanced around end game and raids
clearing dungeons with any comp of jobs is doable for the most part, and has been for a very long time.
removing Raise and heals from SMN and RDM will effect nothing

The best of all, healers being "boring" is the players fault to begin with. Before hand back in ARR and HW, healers where fine balance wise between DPS and healing. Far to many complained that healing was to hard, and we are healers so we should not have to DPS and blah blah blah.... well now you dont have to and now you all want to complain about it...

This is not a FFXIV problem
This is not a dev problem
This has always been a player problem.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Yes, that's the point I'm making. Arguing that healers have to dip into resources when the tank dies is silly when a tank does the exact same thing.

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I did not know that Tanks were part of the healing role, apologies. Some of those armor sets do look a little frilly.

As a healer main, you all need to go outside and touch some grass fr. I will not be striking, but I encourage you to do so so my ques in DF are faster. Thanks o7

If you're willing to ragequit because your feelings got bruised in a video game because a skilled tank didn't need a healer, you're the problem. Not the tank.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

I see the answer to my question is a firm "yes". This is not a boycot. And the concept of a strike more ambiguous, it doesn't require formal system with unions and such. If I go on a food strike, I don't have to join a union.

And again, you are not the person that gets to decide "what will happen". The strike is sending a message already, that's working as intended. And it's reaching people outside of the forums. I've seen many people do their first ever post in this thread.

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But instead of actually going on strike against the 'company' you 'work for' you are instead going 'back to work' in a different position, at the same company, bravo. Playing a different role if you aren't having fun is all well and good, but you should at least realize why people are laughing at and heckling the 'Strike.'

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I did not know that Tanks were part of the healing role, apologies. Some of those armor sets do look a little frilly.

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You know what- perhaps just don't interject on discussion you aren't part of, especially when it's clear you're just looking to start a fight. It's rude and unbecoming of you.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I did not know that Tanks were part of the healing role, apologies. Some of those armor sets do look a little frilly.

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Me when I lack basic reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

So assuming the strike succeeds and RDM and SMN lose Res and Heals, and tanks lose self healing, are you healers willing to accept that wipes and deaths will solely land on your shoulders and be grounds for dismissal from duties?

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I ask for nerfs, not removal. DNC heals don't replace healers (as strong as it is), neither do RDM heals, rezes from both RDM and SMN, or even Clemency, most of those come at significant enough costs that it's better to have a healer do those first and rely on other heals as either minor utility to squeeze extra DPS or for emergencies. Problems start coming in when tanks have 4000 potency of healing every minute; Clemency is fine, healing on Holy Spirit and Blades combo is overkill. Bloodwhetting being a leech is fine, having it proc a 400 potency cure for EVERY enemy it hits is overkill, putting a regen on Equilibrium was overkill, putting regen on Shake it Off was overkill. GNB is less egregious and is a better example of tank sustain not encroaching too much on healers, albeit even there I think it could use tweaks.

Also yes, if someone screws up their role, consequences need to occur, this should be true of tanks and DPS too, not just healers.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

You know what- perhaps just don't interject on discussion you aren't part of, especially when it's clear you're just looking to start a fight. It's rude and unbecoming of you.

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Agreed, it was not my discussion. I do apologize for the rudeness. When it comes to tanks lately, the discussion has lead me to be on the defensive.

Personally I never had a problem with tanks but the developers choices left me questioning their ability to balance this game properly. It's not the tank players fault, it's the developers.