#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Because people were far less experienced in the game. I went into World of Darkness blind my first time, everyone said what a joke it was. I died to the eye, I died to the red/white colours, I died to the Doom, I died to slimes, I kept getting knocked out of the platform on that Anemos thingy, I died to Cerberus, I had no clue what A ads B belly or C chains meant, nothing. I must've died 20 times on my first time there. Do you imagine my first time in WoD was fun for me? It wasn't.

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Doesnt your own example kinda prove you wrong though when you say difficulty went up over the expansions? Stuff is so much more telegraphed and gives you much more time to react now than it was in world of darkness.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Maybe I'm the weird one but I enjoy going blindly into runs because the learning process is what's most fun. When I went Delubrum Reginae blind the first time during ShB I recall those moments as the most fun I've had in the longest time, and I died there so many times I almost lost all my mettle to 0.

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Different mentality. I'd rather have mechanics that are easy to understand but some difficulty in getting right, instead of obscure nonsensical icons and colours that I need to guess and try over and over until it clicks what it does and then it's like, I'll never fail this mechanic ever again.

I do prefer going in blind too however, and when it's possible I will do so, I consider looking up guides to be spoilers, if not outright cheating. But, the game's old now, people have learned the mechanics by heart by the time I got to them, and if I'm always on the floor, it just takes longer for everyone else, and I feel like I'm wasting their time, so sometimes I'll just bite the bullet, if the mechanic is really confusing to me.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Doesnt your own example kinda prove you wrong though when you say difficulty went up over the expansions? Stuff is so much more telegraphed and gives you much more time to react now than it was in world of darkness.

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No, exactly the opposite. Because, what used to be obscure mechanics reserved only for raids, are now seen everywhere. That's the point. My deaths in ShB dungeons far outnumber my deaths in any dungeon up to SB.

And again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it makes things more fun and interesting overall, especially with the experience of knowing or identifying where I first saw a variation of said mechanic, but to argue the difficulty spike from ARR to EW isn't massive, it doesn't make sense to me.

And to say that, seeing a cast bar, with some random title, with absolutely no telegraph until after the snapshot, gives you more time to react? Huh?

DrybearGamers made a video about the healer strike. Here's a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3KE75kCjl8

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

No, exactly the opposite. Because, what used to be obscure mechanics reserved only for raids, are now seen everywhere. That's the point. My deaths in ShB dungeons far outnumber my deaths in any dungeon up to SB.

And again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it makes things more fun and interesting overall, especially with the experience of knowing or identifying where I first saw a variation of said mechanic, but to argue the difficulty spike from ARR to EW isn't massive, it doesn't make sense to me.

And to say that, seeing a cast bar, with some random title, with absolutely no telegraph until after the snapshot, gives you more time to react? Huh?

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Please name those obscure mechanics?

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Originally Posted by Flay_wind

Please name those obscure mechanics?

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I explained the Berserker just a few posts ago.

Or perhaps the flames that need to be placed on the curtains and piano?

Or how about Matoya's Relict where you're not sure if the puddles will hurt you or you should stand on them?

The boss that turns you into a toad with an untelegraphed aoe?

Having to get hit by Death Ray or Apokalypsis before you understand what they actually do?

There's tons of examples.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

My deaths in ShB dungeons far outnumber my deaths in any dungeon up to SB.

but to argue the difficulty spike from ARR to EW isn't massive, it doesn't make sense to me.

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Again it's because a lot of those old content were nerfed...........

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

DrybearGamers made a video about the healer strike. Here's a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3KE75kCjl8

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I watched the video, it's well articulated and showed objectivity in regards of the thread and idea of the strike. He didn't agree with 2-3 things but didn't jump straight with "haha healers cry, stupid strike" etc. like most creators have done.

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Originally Posted by Flay_wind

Please name those obscure mechanics?

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What mechs even kill people in current dungeons? Doom, which is so rare it kills sprouts in every World of Darkness? :D

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Stone Vigil can be fairly brutal if the tank pulls big. Ice sprites got hands and healers don't really have their big healing tools yet. I've seen quite a few wipes there.

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Originally Posted by Meerkats

stone vigil and aurum vale most dangerous dungeons in the game

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Most likely, yeah. There are also specific pulls in certain dungeons like Doma Castle or Bardam's Mettle that can get a little spicy, but I think Aurum Vale and Stone Vigil are the two where you least expect it because every dungeon until those has been a cakewalk.

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Add Quarn to that. Those bees can be deadly with a tank undergeared and pulling too much and a very inexperienced healer. I will unashamedly say it kicked my butt and made me seriously consider giving up White Mage entirely.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I watched the video, it's well articulated and showed objectivity in regards of the thread and idea of the strike. He didn't agree with 2-3 things but didn't jump straight with "haha healers cry, stupid strike" etc. like most creators have done.

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I don’t feel like any of the creators themselves have dismissed it outright (except maybe Loki) they all seem to agree with the premise of the strike they just disagree with if the situation is as severe as we are making it out to be

I don’t think any content creator (again except Loki because I genuinely can’t sit through his videos so I don’t know) has called the strike stupid. The chat of the the YouTubers seem to lean positive once you get past the “lol why they reeing about xeno dungeon”

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

If that were true, Raise wouldn't exist in the game.

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Do you consider putting enemies to sleep a part of the primary healer gameplay loop?
Do you consider repositioning other players a part of the primary healer gameplay loop?

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Do you consider putting enemies to sleep a part of the primary healer gameplay loop?
Do you consider repositioning other players a part of the primary healer gameplay loop?

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Name one thing that can be slept anymore? Outside of deep dungeon usage.

And yes I consider Rescuing someone from what might get them hurt or killed part of the healer gameplay loop. I also consider raising someone to get back into the fight and be part of the duty, experience the fight, part of the gameplay loop.

I've no issue dropping all dps if I need to do, to hurriedly rez someone, or heal someone with a gcd or any of that.

If I'm playing a healer, my primary role is to keep people in the fight. If I cared about mostly performing damage rotations, I'd switch to my dps roles. That's not to say I won't use my 111111 or whatever, when I can, but that's not my primary function, it never was.

If I'm in Qarn and I see a player is Doomed, and they don't know or didn't notice it, and don't run for the platform, I also consider it part of my role to drop everything and quickly type Doom, you will die, run to glowy platform.

A dead dps player who's been rezzed, even with the debuff, will still do more damage than I would pressing 11111. So it's more beneficial to get them back into the fight, than it is to ignore them, to boost my own ego about how much of a better player I am.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I explained the Berserker just a few posts ago.

Or perhaps the flames that need to be placed on the curtains and piano?

Or how about Matoya's Relict where you're not sure if the puddles will hurt you or you should stand on them?

The boss that turns you into a toad with an untelegraphed aoe?

Having to get hit by Death Ray or Apokalypsis before you understand what they actually do?

There's tons of examples.

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Berserker drops 4 rock piles on players, then immediately after places 4 stack markers. Like the only logical thing would be stack with those rock piles, since you do not want to multi-stack and there's nothing else that could probably save you.

Mortal Flame in Lugus and puddles in Nixie are not explained well, i agree, but both boil down to experimenting with mechanics and trying to see what works and what not.

Boss turning into a specific direction and starting casting something likely means you need to move behind it, also being turned into toad does not directly kill you since it does no damage and you cans till move while transformed, and you can clearly see the shape of the attack, so you won't (ideally) get hit the next time.

Death Ray is that way by design. You're supposed to get hit by it, and move out of the beam, it's why it does continuous, but not immediately lethal damage.
And if you see boss charging a massive laser and see that there are small separate spaces on the sides of the area, those are probably the safe spots to stand.

Like all in all a lot of those require you to just pay attention and learn, like all encounters in the game, really.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Name one thing that can be slept anymore? Outside of deep dungeon usage.

And yes I consider Rescuing someone from what might get them hurt or killed part of the healer gameplay loop. I also consider raising someone to get back into the fight and be part of the duty, experience the fight, part of the gameplay loop.

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So a skill merely existing does not make it part of the primary healer gameplay loop? Good to know.
The key word here is "Primary". Even you yourself are not saying these are primary things. Where, precisely, does scraping someone off the floor fall into the primary loop? Where does moving someone fall into the primary loop?

The fact of the matter is these things are secondary details that the healer can make use of in the event that someone else screws up badly, they are not and should not be your primary gameplay. And neither of them are things unique to healers anyway. Summoner and Red Mage can scrape people off the floor, which contributes to the group's damage and therefore is part of their role. Anyone can pay attention and move themselves to where they need to be, fulfilling their own roles.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

So a skill merely existing does not make it part of the primary healer gameplay loop? Good to know.
The key word here is "Primary". Even you yourself are not saying these are primary things. Where, precisely, does scraping someone off the floor fall into the primary loop? Where does moving someone fall into the primary loop?

The fact of the matter is these things are secondary details that the healer can make use of in the event that someone else screws up badly, they are not and should not be your primary gameplay. And neither of them are things unique to healers anyway. Summoner and Red Mage can scrape people off the floor, which contributes to the group's damage and therefore is part of their role. Anyone can pay attention and move themselves to where they need to be, fulfilling their own roles.

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This is arguing semantics for semantics sake. A healer's primary role is to alleviate mistakes. This includes healing, rezzing, rescuing. It also includes decision making, triage, as to who to prioritise. It's all part of the role itself. Dps is secondary to healers.

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Originally Posted by Flay_wind

Berserker drops 4 rock piles on players, then immediately after places 4 stack markers. Like the only logical thing would be stack with those rock piles, since you do not want to multi-stack and there's nothing else that could probably save you.

Mortal Flame in Lugus and puddles in Nixie are not explained well, i agree, but both boil down to experimenting with mechanics and trying to see what works and what not.

Boss turning into a specific direction and starting casting something likely means you need to move behind it, also being turned into toad does not directly kill you since it does no damage and you cans till move while transformed, and you can clearly see the shape of the attack, so you won't (ideally) get hit the next time.

Death Ray is that way by design. You're supposed to get hit by it, and move out of the beam, it's why it does continuous, but not immediately lethal damage.
And if you see boss charging a massive laser and see that there are small separate spaces on the sides of the area, those are probably the safe spots to stand.

Like all in all a lot of those require you to just pay attention and learn, like all encounters in the game, really.

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Yes I understand, I know all of that now. My entire point is that, these mechanics are far less intuitive at first glance, than say an ARR or HW boss, which boil down to don't step on yellow stuff. Which makes them harder for first timers. And even in ARR/HW there were a few of these, but far less than in later expansions, that's why later expansions have harder mechanics. And even when you have "don't stand in the yellow stuff" now, it's not 1 or 2, they cover the whole arena with a small safe spot, or force you to run to the last one, then dodge into the first one, often while also dodging lines etc.

Modern dungeons and trials and raids are much harder than their ARR/HW counterparts. They ask more of the player do keep an eye on and do.

My next isn't directed at you specifically, but in general however.

It's ironic to me how this whole thread asks others to understand the plight of healing being boring, and I do, I hope SE gives you all more stuff to optimise and do; yet the same people stick their heads in the sand, completely oblivious to the plight of new players and how overwhelming a lot of mechanics can be to them on the first or second try, and what a shock it can be moving from one expansion to the next. Or even to players who may just be slower on the uptake.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Yes I understand, I know all of that now. My entire point is that, these mechanics are far less intuitive at first glance, than say an ARR or HW boss, which boil down to don't step on yellow stuff. Which makes them harder for first timers. And even in ARR/HW there were a few of these, but far less than in later expansions, that's why later expansions have harder mechanics. And even when you have don't stand in the yellow stuff now, it's not 1 or 2, they cover the whole arena with a small safe spot, or force you to run to the last one, then dodge into the first one, often while also dodging lines etc.

Modern dungeons and trials and raids are much harder than their ARR/HW counterparts. They ask more of the player do keep an eye on and do.

My next isn't directed at you specifically, but in general however.

It's ironic to me how this whole thread asks others to understand the plight of healing being boring, and I do, I hope SE gives you all more stuff to optimise and do; yet the same people stick their heads in the sand, completely oblivious to the plight of new players and how overwhelming a lot of mechanics can be to them on the first or second try, and what a shock it can be moving from one expansion to the next. Or even to players who may just be slower on the uptake.

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Tell me how you knew ram's voice was point blank aoe/dragon's was doughnut in cutter's cry, or the purple crystal damage reduction in dzemael darkhold or about the staff guy's staves in wanderer's palace hard, or pharos sirius or lost city of amdapor (hard)'s butterfly mechanics or tentacles in hullbreaker or first boss of tamtara hard's mechanics or final boss of haukke hard's dps control or aurum vale's untelegraphed attacks on coincounter or snowballs in snowcloak to name just a few.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

A healer's primary role is to alleviate mistakes.

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Then the healer is made easily obsolete.
A healer's primary role is to sustain a group long enough to make a kill. DPS is secondary, yes, as it's something you should do in down time to reduce the amount of time you're spent sustaining people.
Fixing other people's mistakes, that's tertiary. They should be fixing their own issues, not having you making picking up after them part of your main activities.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Not everything is just people remembering things wrongly lol.

The wipe rates in normal content were just far higher back then. I don't think you've ever experienced an instance timeout in an alliance raid have you?

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Wiping city was called that for a reason, there was one time it was so bad that we had 8 mins left on timer and on last boss when everyone but me(sch) and main tank(Drk) died, it was post add phase and I just went fuck this i ain’t wiping again, so me and that Drk did 40% of that boss hp ourselves and cleared the instance.

Neither of us took any unnecessary damage but 22 other people certainly did, they were demanding we wipe and our rebuttal was you couldn’t dodge it the 1st 10x why the hell should we wipe so you can get hit another 10 more costing us the win due to timeout.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

It's ironic to me how this whole thread asks others to understand the plight of healing being boring, and I do, I hope SE gives you all more stuff to optimise and do; yet the same people stick their heads in the sand, completely oblivious to the plight of new players and how overwhelming a lot of mechanics can be to them on the first or second try, and what a shock it can be moving from one expansion to the next. Or even to players who may just be slower on the uptake.

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This is not an argument against more interesting filler dps butons/mechanics though. It's an argument against increasing the amount of healing to do.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Tell me how you knew ram's voice was point blank aoe/dragon's was doughnut in cutter's cry, or the purple crystal damage reduction in dzemael darkhold or about the staff guy's staves in wanderer's palace hard, or pharos sirius or lost city of amdapor (hard)'s butterfly mechanics or tentacles in hullbreaker or first boss of tamtara hard's mechanics or final boss of haukke hard's dps control or aurum vale's untelegraphed attacks on coincounter or snowballs in snowcloak to name just a few.

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In some cases I figured it out, in others I had someone experienced tell me. Same as modern dungeons. And I did specify, there were a few mechanics that were obscure in ARR/HW, but not nearly as common as later expansions. And all those mechanics happen one at a time, they rarely overlapped.

Now, you're given one chance to learn the mechanic, if you missed it, the next mechanics will overlap and you're just expected to survive.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

This is not an argument against more interesting filler dps butons/mechanics though. It's an argument against increasing the amount of healing to do.

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My argument is that it's entirely disingenuous to say that ShB and EW are somehow easier than ARR or HW. They're absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Then the healer is made easily obsolete.
A healer's primary role is to sustain a group long enough to make a kill. DPS is secondary, yes, as it's something you should do in down time to reduce the amount of time you're spent sustaining people.
Fixing other people's mistakes, that's tertiary. They should be fixing their own issues, not having you making picking up after them part of your main activities.

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It's not tertiary, it's primary. Fixing someone's mistake, keeps them in the fight, long enough to secure the kill. That's the healer's job.

A healer's job is only obsolete, once the group has the dance down so well, they never make mistakes. Take a guess how many times I've gone into DF and seen zero mistakes from the whole party?

The healer's primary job is to heal unavoidable damage like boss autoattacks, tankbusters and raidwide aoes. That is why they are in the trinity, because tanks and dps will die without someone healing that damage. Or at least they should die.

EW bosses do the tutorial versions of their attacks like 4 times and then they're dead. The only time you might ever see the real version is the patch they came out in.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The healer's primary job is to heal unavoidable damage like boss autoattacks, tankbusters and raidwide aoes. That is why they are in the trinity, because tanks and dps will die without someone healing that damage. Or at least they should die.

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That's also part of the job. Or do you expect everyone to know everything, at all times, regardless of how many times they've done it, or how long since they've done the instance?

Or perhaps in your mind, someone getting hit by something avoidable, they're on their own then? Sucks to be them? How dare they don't know every mechanic, at every moment it's going to hit?

Healers exist to alleviate mistakes. If it was only for tankbusters and raidwides and nothing else, then dump the healers entirely, get them out of the game, and just give every job the ability to press to heal themselves every time the raidwide or tankbuster happens, then if they make avoidable mistakes, they die.

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Originally Posted by Len_

EW bosses do the tutorial versions of their attacks like 4 times and then they're dead. The only time you might ever see the real version is the patch they came out in.

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When? Where? What is with all this hyperbole? Every single post on these forums. People acting like we haven't played the game or experienced the duty finder ever.

The amount of times I've seen mechanics skipped to such a degree as you claim, I can count on one hand. My first time in Endsinger, we wiped 4 times. My second time, we wiped twice. And it was filled with people who did the fight before.

These experiences you keep throwing out are so rare, it's ridiculous to even account for them.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

That's also part of the job. Or do you expect everyone to know everything, at all times, regardless of how many times they've done it, or how long since they've done the instance?

Or perhaps in your mind, someone getting hit by something avoidable, they're on their own then? Sucks to be them? How dare they don't know every mechanic, at every moment it's going to hit?

Healers exist to alleviate mistakes. If it was only for tankbusters and raidwides and nothing else, then dump the healers entirely, get them out of the game, and just give every job the ability to press to heal themselves every time the raidwide or tankbuster happens, then if they make avoidable mistakes, they die.

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What is this strawmanning? The healer's primary job is to heal unavoidable damage, fixing mistakes only comes after you've made sure the tank is not dying to autos and the team is topped up and shielded for major aoes. Healers exist to heal unavoidable damage first, and to fix mistakes second.

If you want to play a non-trinity game where everyone heals themselves, they exist out there, but FFXIV is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

My argument is that it's entirely disingenuous to say that ShB and EW are somehow easier than ARR or HW. They're absolutely not.

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As mentor? Yes, they are, No argument. As a tank i can compensate for a bad party more then any of those even as a Paladin ESPECIALLY in Endwalker. Competent healers can small pull without the need of a Tank. And as a monk i can defecto tank with a competent healer.

Also be serious, which expansions has had the most dungeon reworks? Trusts didnt dumb down dungeons they dumbed down the Dungeons so trusts could do them.

Over Half my join ins during Stormblood were T.G Cid pre nerf. I am convinced they nerfed him just because the rage quit numbers were astronomical.

The problem with healers in normal mode content is that they're only engaging when people are making mistakes because of how low the incoming damage is outside of the odd heal check mechanic once in a blue moon.

In harder content you just get one-shot for messing up more often then not so there's no engagement to be had that regard and most of your thinking job-wise comes from memorizing when to pop CDs, though that eventually just becomes second nature and similarly ceases to be engaging.

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Originally Posted by SNUBBIRTH23

Over Half my join ins during Stormblood were T.G Cid pre nerf. I am convinced they nerfed him just because the rage quit numbers were astronomical.

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Even to this day when i do the 24 man raid roulette, if i tag the orbonne monastery, i sometimes have between 4/5 people quitting the raid at the start, it's a bit sad
(Sorry for the subject derailment, back to the healers)

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Originally Posted by Reinha

What is this strawmanning? The healer's primary job is to heal unavoidable damage, fixing mistakes only comes after you've made sure the tank is not dying to autos and the team is topped up and shielded for major aoes. Healers exist to heal unavoidable damage first, and to fix mistakes second.

If you want to play a non-trinity game where everyone heals themselves, they exist out there, but FFXIV is not one of them.

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One person interprets the healers and the tasks involved. has their own idea of what they want and dont want to do as a healer, and then someone comes along and writes twice, once wasn't enough, that it has to be so and so.

why discuss at all if you know best anyway? and because it's good to say things twice, here again. since you know best anyway, you don't need to discuss anymore.

If you want healer to be a triage role only... where's the triage and what exactly do we do when not triage-ing?

Nowadays people just die when they make a mistake, which also means healing them is largely pointless since they just die anyway, a focus on triage is incompatible with the current fight design. Even if they change this in Dawntrail, old content is supposed to be Evergreen. In high end duties the body checks mean you can't even raise.

I Just thought I'd pop in and add my voice to this, and I almost never come on these forums but this is an issue, and has been for far too long and I'm getting far to frustrated with it.

I'm tried of content that provides little to no engagement/risk to the group, dungeon content has become pretty much second monitor content for me while my attention is more on a YT Vid or other entertainment because if I don't have SOMETHING interesting I will literally need to sleep after dungeons because they are just, not engaging. EX and Raid content *can* be better... but often falls short as well, outside of a few mechanics that come to mind the entire expansion.

Healers deserve to have content that is fun and engaging for them that lets them shiny in their role and actually use more than a small handful of their kit, far more than it currently is, they deserve to feel like they have more impact, more moments where "I was the Hero, I saved that, without me this was over" but there is barely any reward for healers above being mediocre, why become amazing at your role when just good enough is fine?

Anyways, I support this, making healing fun again, it isn't atm imo, I don't know exactly how to fix it, but a good start for me would be to make sure that healers feel they need to use Healing skills More, healing should feel important, it doesn't currently.

"My healing is filler, to a 1-2 Button DPS Rotation, isn't this fun? x)"

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

My argument is that it's entirely disingenuous to say that ShB and EW are somehow easier than ARR or HW. They're absolutely not.

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I can't conscience this because almost all of the mechanics you see from even StB onwards are just rehashings of ones introduced in ARR and HW, just telegraphed more obviously.

There were entire bosses in ARR that did nothing but 'untelegraphed' attacks that you just had to watch the boss' animations and positioning (Cyclops, Minotaurs) and even had no tank aggro (Demon Wall/Tome, Biped Dragons like endboss of Stone Vigil Hard). The modern versions of those fights, like the Cyclops, second boss of Amanesis Anyder, can't fathom these types of attacks without giving players a 'quick flash' of the AoE just before it goes off to really emphasize to the player that you screwed up by not dodging. Hell, even Titan hard mode just had bombs and you had to move away from them, guesstimating their range.

There's always been a degree of knowing your enemy by exposure which is a good thing, like how a chimera would do the voices and a gigantoad would pull-> leap, things that even the overworld taught players in ARR, so a lot of that shorthand could be expected when that type of enemy appeared as a boss or add or even trash mob.

I suspect the reason you had less difficulty with earlier duties had much less to do with how difficult they were to 'read' and more to do with how powerful and simple player actions have become for those level ranges, let alone systems like gear also being more powerful in subtle ways.

Double post; can't edit in mobile mode.

Often you would never be threatened by mistakes in earlier dungeons trials and raids because you do heavily outclass them that you don't need to even do mechanics, even if you see them. See: Crystal Tower, ARR post MSQ trials, Alexander normal raids, even the leveling dungeons get trounced despite tighter ilvls

Yeah feels bad when a warrior doesn't even need me I'm just low dps like sure give some sustain etc but it's out of hand...

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

My argument is that it's entirely disingenuous to say that ShB and EW are somehow easier than ARR or HW. They're absolutely not.

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I think ARR and HW were way harder because rotations were harder, mechanics were brand new and the damage, heal and tanking checks were way harder. Even SB was harder than ShB and EW looks at the alliance raids, people still wipe to them after 7 years. I think ShB and EW aren't harder but they require way more movement and constant reacting which would make them nearly impossible with old style rotations and stats. The only healing check I can think of in EW is P10S besides that healing is pretty simple and even then after you get used to P10S its just CD you save.
I mean people still die in Hard mode dungeons from ARR and a lot of HW/SB dungeons were dumbed down for duty support. I think that the game has gotten easier it just throws more stuff at you way faster.