You're absolutely right. I know you've replied to me some, and you might not have noticed it, but I do this more and more. Where before I might have spent pages, now I'm far quicker to "Here's my response, say whatever you will, I'm moving on" from things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn
I will note this, though: EVERY single time that ANYONE has called out the people attacking me - "Guys, we're trying to have a discussion and you're dogpiling on Ren, stop it please." - it stops instantly. The people are cowed and stop when they realize the public ISN'T on their side. It's happened on exactly two occasions I can remember, but people were suddenly very well behaved and threads stopped being derailed...indicating I'm not the one that derails things and makes them about me. But it requires someone else to say it. And that's only happened two times.
Otherwise, especially with their posts getting likes, they think everyone supports their derailing and heckling, so they continue. But it is amazing how ONE person standing up and saying "You guys are the problem, not him, please stop" brings it to a complete end and gets people to act like mature adults and discuss things fairly and in good faith.
But I am trying, more and more, to just do that. I do give a response - I don't like letting lies or accusations sit unchallenged - but after that, moving on or putting replies into HBs so they are out of the main discussion. Sometimes it works. Sometimes the hecklers are determined and will keep egging me on even if I completely stop responding to them (one thread, I had a person quoting every one of my posts and digging at me, even though I wasn't replying to literally anything they were saying). But I am trying to do that more.
...it'd still be nice if, now and again, people DID call out the hecklers, though. Not in a mean way, just a polite "Guys, he's trying to engage with the topic, instead of being mean to him, you should, too." or the like. A man can dream...
...and yet, the difference between a good and bad BLM is far larger than between a good and bad SMN. The difference will always exist, but the gap is relevant, and the more complex a Job is, the wider that gap gets. The point here is that the wider that gap is, the more people slipping up makes content unclearable, and that's bad. The wider the gap is, the more it punishes people on the bottom end of it (in terms of getting clears) for playing as they do now, and that's also bad. Your numbers seemed to indicate a gap of around 7-10% for a person using Glare and Dia every 30 sec, and that's...a big gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
We will disagree on what "the straightforward healer" looks like. That's going to be a thing. The question I have is more this:
Would you prefer healers stay as they are or get something like the 4 Healers Model where at least some of them are to a complexity of your liking?
It's not a false choice - if the playerbase doesn't agree, then the Devs are very much likely to stick to the default/status quo, and I believe based on your past pessimistic comments about their design direction, you know this. As a compromise, it means people like me who enjoy healing now would continue to do so, and people like you who want more damage to juggle in your downtime would have that opportunity. If the alternative was ShB 3.0 in DT, would you prefer that? I think you wouldn't, but perhaps you would.
Also, "It's just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD"?
In bold are all the things that AREN'T "just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD".Quote:
New gauge element, goes from 0-100 by using non-Lily damage and heal actions, I call it the 'Nature gauge' because no imagination
Glare now gives 1 gauge
Dia now 12s duration, 150 on cast + 70p per tick (total 430). Gives 5 total gauge over it's duration
Water/Banish added, instantcast 15s CD, 40p stronger than the relative Stone/Glare level, gives 5 gauge on cast
Maybe a shielding Lily spender (400p ST/250p AOE), down with the pure/barrier split it sucks
New healing move, Blessing of the Elementals, costs 50 'Nature gauge', 500p instantcast AOE heal GCD, grants a stack of each of Rage of the River, Wrath of the Winds, Ire of the Earth
Quake, upgrades from Glare/Stone while under 'Ire of the Earth', is 100p stronger
Tornado, upgrades from Aero/Dia while under 'Wrath of the Winds', is 30p stronger on cast and 20p per tick (total 110)
Flood, upgrades from Water/Banish while under 'Rage of the River', is 100p stronger
THAT.
SAID:
Isn't this the proposal you had once where I said something to the effect of "Replace Assize with Water/Banish, scrap the gauge and just have Presence of Mind upgrade into Blessing of the Elements, and we've got a deal"? I may even have suggested a 60 sec CD for PoM/BoE so we'd get to interact with it more frequently.
I don't want another Faerie Gauge situation. Just make it PoM and replace Assize with Water/Banish. I'd be up for that, and this feels like deja vu me having said this before... Like...I DISTINCTLY remember suggesting replacing Assize with a GCD like that for the third element once somewhere, and I think it was in reply to one of your ideas... (I also suggested it somewhere else, but that was a second time.) I've also suggested having Water/Holy be a thing before, but that was separate.
Alsoalso: Agree with down with the barrier/pure divide, though you already know my solution to that is Pro/Shell being added to Plenary - something I believe you said you agreed with? We don't need a new Lily spender for that, we could just do THAT. And we already have a single target barrier with Benison. Just have Temperance give an AOE barrier and you've got that end covered, too.
Quick hits since the rest we've already laid out and there's nothing else to really say:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDustyOne
1% would need to be the gap. We've seen Jobs dropped from content for less.
It's not skewing average to above average, that IS the average. One thing high end players often lose sight of is how exceptional they are. When I get captured on the site (I don't run a parser myself), my runs are usually green/blue for Extremes and gray/green for Savage, but in the 24 mans, they're blue/purple. I think I'm just doing "average" things (like keeping the GCD running), but turns out those are actually ABOVE average things. Setting aside that ilevel and crit variance DOES apply (I'm always going to be doing less damage than someone in full Savage in a farm/parse party), this is still a relevant gap to consider when discussing changes to the game.
You can argue about whether that should be or not, but as I and others have said before, the game does not teach people things like rotations. The only Jobs that do so are the intuitive ones like SMN, and they're routinely badmouthed by...high end players (despite being wildly popular with everyone else - probably for that reason). The vast majority of the playerbase isn't reading offline guides on encounters or rotations, or anything outside of the game at all. That has to be factored into any changes, so the numbers used in analysis need to reflect that portion of the playerbase as well.
Again, the changes don't ONLY affect Savage players, so you can't ONLY consider Savage players when discussing and talking about them.
And therein lies the rub.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
If you say oGCDs, the people that like mostly weaving oGCDs and not having to hardcast heals will get upset.
If you say GCD heals, the people that don't like oGCDs will get upset, and people will point out this would make the gap between beginner and expert huge and likely make even normal content unclearable for many parties (since you've now gotten rid of beginner go-to heals and emergency fall-back heals).
For every ability you mention removing, you will find defenders. I once suggested combining Fey Blessing and Whispering Dawn so it gets an upfront heal and then a HoT and was told that's terrible since it would remove the flexibility of two separate abilities, "dumb down" SCH healing, and so on. There are people that defended Lustrate, there are people that defended Aetherpact. About the only button no one will defend is Benfic 1 (Cure 1 has SLIGHTLY different use cases than Cure 2, and Physic is needed for SCH's in the level 35-50 range of healing AND does more raw healing than Adlo does), and possibly Medica 1 (Medica 2 does the same healing with the base heal + initial tick).
Oh, then you have the people that will insist nothing less than 48 buttons is a problem.
...this is another reason that my 4 Healers Model idea has merit, since it allows each group to have some redress...
If you replace Assize with Water/Banish and have PoM upgrade into BoE (and, again, dump the gauge idea - seriously, too many Jobs have a 0-100 gauge, it's dumb, we don't need more), you could do this without adding a single button. If you then had Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2 or Medica 1 into Medica 2 (lower M2's MP cost by 100 and up its initial potency to equal M1's and it's a flat upgrade with no downside) and you even clock in at the magic 32 mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I also gave you suggestions for SCH: Ruin 2 -> Miasma and Energy Drain -> Shadowflare. I wasn't doing that in jest.
The other two I have more or less written off at this point, so...an if it harm none, do as thou will, so to speak. (4 Healers Model is the "harm none(fewest possible)" in this case. And I MOSTLY agree with you that your WHM proposal might satisfy that...with a smidge of massaging, allowing "do as thou will" with the others.)
I absolutely agree with this. One reason I love stuff like Soil/Kerochole is because they have short CDs. Not short enough you can 100% uptime them, but short enough you have access to them most any time you think about them. Contrast things like Temperance/Lilybell or the like which have long CDs so you don't have that availability. GNB gets a mini burst every 1 min and a micro burst every 30 sec and it feels really good compared to options that are on 2 min cycles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I actually HAVE used Aquaveil quite a bit this expansion. I do think it might not need to be a separate button, however. For example, at level 86, Tetra could have upgraded to Aquaveil (heal + mitigation), which is how Taurochole works itself. Exaltation could have come from Essential Dignity in a similar vein, or Celestial Intersection. Protraction...is actually more unique. But something like cutting it to 5% and having Lustrate upgrade to adding that effect. Would give Lustrate a bit more of a use case outside of "if you need healing RIGHT this second, everything else is too slow or on CD, and you still have one Aetherflow left...", which would be a good thing even if it was only used in niche situations (so is Protraction anyway!)Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-16-2023, 11:41 AMRenathras
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11-16-2023, 11:52 AMAravellI haven't done TOP, but the lv86 set of stuff gets a chance to shine in DSR during double dragons phase because of the sheer amount of damage the tanks are taking. But 1 phase in 1 ultimate where they actually can help really doesn't much justify the existence of the skills in general. They're not even necessary, they just help a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-16-2023, 12:22 PMIDontPetLalasI've always been convinced that's part of the reason that we lost Noct AST. I realize that most AST, by default, were in Diurnal, but God forbid that someone in Noct forgot to switch if paired with a SCH, or 2 ASTs forgot to run Noct/Diurnal. Better just to take any decision-making out of their hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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11-16-2023, 02:30 PMTheDustyOneThere is currently no job where playing poorly and playing well is at a 1% gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Let's assume for a moment that gear will account for at least half of the discrepancy between the average low parse and average high parse. In this scenario, the difference between a good WAR and bad WAR is 10%, GNB is 13%, and WHM is 20%, and you think it will cause problems past 1%? Even assuming gear makes up 75% of the discrepancy, WAR would still have a 5% difference, and I'm being VERY generous by doing 5% here, I've had personal experiences lately where people better geared than me have done 10% less damage than me (frequently lower), and I don't consider myself a top-tier WAR main by any means.
The only way I can think you've come to this conclusion is from conflating some other statistic, and the only thing I can think of is when people couldn't reach enrage back in Abyssos over 1% HP of the final floors door boss.
Believe it or not, tooltips do actually give some players a decent idea of how to go about starting their job, they just choose not to read those either. I agree that the game doesn't do a good job of teaching, and they should teach players better, but more often than not it's up to players to improve, and they can start by reading their tooltips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I don't think anyone here who has suggested changes to healing has only thought of Savage, the reason they put more emphasis on more damage options is because it doesn't affect the skill floor in casual content, so those players don't get affected all that much. Savage players are in fact the ones that would "lose out" because now they have to work harder for a higher parse, which is the point anyway, because the complaint is that they're frequently feeling unengaged with the content because they're spamming 1 button for 80% of a fight. I'm fine with increasing healing requirements, and want that even in casual content, but it can only go so high, the game was not built for WoW-styled triage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-16-2023, 02:48 PMAravell
So, since people are so up in arms about supposedly losing a significant amount of damage if healers were more complex, I wanted to check how much of an impact losing 10% damage from a healer has, so I looked up a 50% SCH log from P9S because the argument is that casual healers may want to tackle the first floor of savage, and 50% is a perfectly average number.
The dps check of P9S is roughly 64k. A perfectly average SCH currently does about 5600 dps. A 10% reduction in that is 560 dps, losing that 10% is equivalent to 0.875% of the dps check. Why are people so up in arms about this? 0.875% is so insignificant that you can't even pin the blame on the healer without looking like a tool. A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.
EDIT: Made a mistake, I was looking at old numbers, a perfectly average SCH now outputs about 6000 dps, which brings the total of a 10% loss up to 0.94% of the dps check. That's still less than 1% of the total output required to clear, so I still fail to see what the fuss it about. -
11-16-2023, 03:18 PMty_taurusThe point you, myself, and many others here are missing is that it really has nothing to do with the average player's ability to clear. If we were to do something like Roe's White Mage rework, the problem is that someone who engages with the added tools of Banish and the like is going to be numerically better than someone who just wants to spam Glare, or do as much as White Mage currently does and nothing further, regardless of how that does or doesn't influence clear rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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11-16-2023, 05:04 PMfulminating
consolation and summon seraph go, replaced by rouse. rouse has the added effect of an appropriately scaled shield on each fairy action used under its duration.
indom has its cooldown reduced to 10 or 15s to compensate, also quickened aetherflow is back
protraction is the kind of button that isn't strong enough to be interesting, either needs a buff or needs gone. Thematically I like that it's mini thrill though.
selene returns with fey illumination swapped for a different button while active
energy drain gets the mp generation thing back, dissipation was made worse than it had to be by removing it.
fey union can also go since it's just rouse by another name -
11-16-2023, 05:57 PMForsakenRoe
Man I should have stayed in bed, so I wouldn't have to look at this mess
My numbers indicate a 10% gap NOW. Under the gameplay you are demanding remains in the game in some form with your 4 healers thing. If it is acceptable to have that gap NOW, it's acceptable to have it in another design, especially when said design is less punishing by about half a percent, and has room for people to express their skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What I want does not matter, because the Devs don't listen to me, or you, or any of us. They'll do whatever they want for DT and nothing any of us say or do is likely to change a thing. They have some mythical 'data source' that tells them things like 'SCHs were forcing WHMs to do all the healing' and making changes based on that. Maybe they do what I ask for, maybe they do what you ask for, maybe they just leave everything as it is and we get SHB 3.0, 4.0 and even 5.0 with two new healing tools added each time that we didn't ask for, and struggle to find a use for
It's just a shortened DOT and a 15s CD, in terms of the damage side of the kit. You're a healer, so healing tools and additional complexity surrounding healing are completely acceptable, surely? Quake, Tornado and Flood are all automatically used by just doing the same rotation. You don't need to think 'oh I need to hold Quake for raidbuffs' because to do so would require that you stop casting your filler spell, and nobody wants that. But, if you don't need the healing from the heal, you could use it one GCD before raidbuffs go out, such that the next three GCDs of damage do naturally land within raidbuffs. That is intentional, because it gives the job an avenue to optimize on, and provides some more gameplay for players to interact with in things where the heal is completely unneeded (like EX roulette)
THAT. SAID: (was this necessary?)
Your constant asking of 'why don't we just replace X with Y' misses the point somewhat. For some jobs, it could work, yes. AST and SGE, I did exactly this, replaced X with Y in terms of effect, to keep button counts the same. For example, changing Krasis from '20% heal up on target' to 'next 4 cast times are made instant'. However, when you suggest something like 'replace Assize with Water', I'm not sure how much thought you have put into the ramifications of what that'd mean. WHM has already historically been the victim of this BS from SE's end. We lost Shroud, and got it given back as Lucid. We lost Stoneskin and got it back as Benison. We lost Divine Seal and got it back as Largesse, then lost that and got it back as Temperance. It'd be hard to get people excited about 'hey you get a new Water ability' if it's followed up with 'it replaces Assize'. Additionally, the damage lost from Assize being removed is 400p per 40s, or 1200 per 2min loop, that needs to be added back to the kit. If we assume it comes from Water (and that this Water is a 15s CD), then the damage gained by using 8 of those Waters instead of Glares (so 8X, where X = WaterPotency - GlarePotency) needs to be equal to the 3x Assize. So, 150p difference, making Water 460 compared to Glare's 310. And if we then take a player who will ignore Dia and Water, and just spam Glare, they'd do 7440p per minute, compared to the player who uses Dia and Water getting 8850. And percentagecalculator.net says... 84.06779661016948%. You've made the damage difference more punishing. The only way you'd get around this is to put all the damage onto Glare instead, which kind of misses the point of having a CD to press. It'd be like saying 'we are removing Upheaval, where do we put the damage? On Fell Cleave/Primal Rend? Nah, put it on Maim'
I don't see why you'd be against being able to apply barriers using a Lily. It allows a player to get mileage out of a Lily spend (to prep Misery) even when player HP is at 100%, and could open up gameplay where the WHM does a shield for a raidwide so that the 'barrier healer' doesn't have to spend a GCD doing so. The barriers would not be as strong as the SCH/SGE ones, so it'd mean working together to work out 'is the WHM barrier strong enough that we can get away with doing that to save a GCD instead of using a SCH/SGE one, or do we need to do bigger shields from the SCH/SGE, and have the WHM instead use that Lily to heal up after'. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, giving every healer semi-reliable access to shields means that the Devs can know that there's a shield available in any comp, meaning 'shield check' mechanics can be created, which would test the healer on how well they are healing (something people ask for a lot). A debuff, for example, that can be blocked by fully mitigating the raidwide that applies it. Or a knockback like Vulcan Burst from Ifrit/Ifrit EX/Ifrit in UWU. They can even make a graphic element for it, like how interruptible casts flash red, this could pulse say, green (customizable in options for colorblind accessibility), and have a shield icon on the bar to indicate it needs to be shielded against
If anyone reads my stuff and thinks 'oh they are only thinking of Savage, what about me, the downtrodden casual in the EX roulette', they didn't do a very good job of reading what I wrote. How can you look at what I put for SGE, for example, where every standard GCD, including Diagnosis and Prognosis, has zero MP cost, and think 'yep that's a change that is for the Savage crowd'?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDustyOne
As I've said before, Crit Variance will kill your run harder than any design I or any other forum user comes up with, trying to boogeyman about 'this will cause damage disparity and lead to enrage wipes' just reveals that the person trying to boogeyman hasn't done the maths, or has and is wilfully ignoring what the maths says to push their pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
They want to be rewarded and told they're a good player, without putting in the effort to actually be a good player? Say it ain't so /sQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
edit:
Protraction would immediately go from 'whats the point' tier to 'this is great' IMO, by letting us Deploy it. Functionally, it'd then be functionally identical to a shield worth '10% of the target's HP', allowing us to do more mitigation OGCD (replacing a Succor cast at times). Alternatively, it'd allow for us to do Protraction > Adlo (boosted now) > Deploy, and deploy both the Adlo and the Protraction at once for even harder mit, which would allow us (at times) to remove another mit and use it elsewhere (eg maybe Illumination can be shifted to something else).Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
That'd be interactivity within a healer kit, though, and 'this requires thought to make best use of'. We know SE doesn't want that -
11-16-2023, 06:11 PMSebazyYep, I'm fine with that, I've said my piece and ohhh.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Well never mind then ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Maybe they realised it's a waste of time trying to explain things to you because you're stuck in your mindset like a set of concrete shoes and absolutely nothing said is going to make the slightest difference? Maybe they had already said what needed to be said, realised that none of it was understood and decided that it was a waste of time and energy to pursue the point further. And yes, maybe they respect the other people in the thread enough to know when enough is enough and it's time to get back on the thread.
It's not about likes, it's about having respect for the other people on this forum.
Man sometimes I genuinely wonder if it's just an elaborate act? Like no one can have this lack of self awareness right?
So, are we actually done on this topic or what?
Pretty much. Savage and Extremes were still tolerable for me, it was going back down to more casual content where things became a mind numbing tedium and as such, when I make ideas, it's actually stuff like alliance raids, fates or even something like maps with a couple of friends. One of my statics tanks was a maps nut and we'd routinely end up duoing maps as everyone else ran for the hills after raid. Mindlessly chatting s**t made it tolerable thankfully because the content itself absolutely wasn't. Even WHM's Lilies barely register as a feature because outside stuff doesn't stay alive long enough to actually get a Misery going.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDustyOne
I'm firmly of the opinion that FFXIV needs to look forwards, not back. If some old content becomes obsolete and needs numbers nuked to at least make it clearable again for the sake of the game going forward then that's a perfectly good trade IMO. -
11-16-2023, 06:26 PMRein_eon_OsborneI am of the same mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
When I wrote my own idea, I don't feel the need to look at healing portion of the kits unless I'm nerfing them radically (I haven't) because I knew they're going to be enough to handle whatever EX/Savages that the dev could've thrown at us. That part has already been taken care of to some degree, so why not flesh out the damaging part of the kit that's been left on barren soil for so long? Y'know... that one part that we always interact in any given encounter? Give 'em some love:(?
I LOL'ed at the WHM lily comment because it reminds me of the time when I was doing MSQ on my alt character. Past lv74 before attaining mount flight, I literally let her aggro overworld mobs in purpose regularly just so I can blast out Misery when the quest told me to clean up mobs. I told that to my close friends linkshell and their first response was "Are you that bored bruh?". -
11-16-2023, 06:27 PMSaraideYea you kinda need stuff to go wrong to have fun in ex trials which is why the point of "we should make healers heal more" is kinda dumb. The healing part is already the engaging one (preventing people from dying to void bio is fun, actually) but reasonable people recognize it's unrealistic to have the healing part in easier content increased by the necessary amount to make it the majority. Making the damage part more complex really doesnt affect anyone negatively because it cant. Outside of exactly this sort of casual elitist player who has convinced themselves they are fairly good at the game without any basis and will take serious ego damage whenever that gets disproven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
100% correct on the spoilered part :) -
11-16-2023, 11:10 PMfulminatingI like that idea, it might be interesting if they learn more into deploy/bane as what differentiates scholar and sage. Perhaps even to the point of deleting succour- although this would probably need an adjustment of sorts to compensate for the lost aoe hp restoration. On this train of thought, the reintroduction of eye for an eye could also be helpful, particularly if it wasn’t just used on cd on the tank. Magic type vengeance as an effect instead of damage down could alleviate it possibly? Just damage is a bit boring though and cd reduction procs might be detrimental if they don’t cull raid buff minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-16-2023, 11:14 PMAravellI would advise against deleting Succor regardless. Without Succor, SCH loses stable AoE healing, which means if the other healer dies before a multiple hit stack mechanic, there's no feasible way to salvage the situation unless you burn every other tool available to you. ET Succor can also be a very valuable tool for recovery when your cohealer is dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
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11-17-2023, 12:07 AMfulminating
I did specifically mention that losing succour’s aoe healing would probably mandate an adjustment in that post you quoted.
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11-17-2023, 06:03 AMRenathras...and that's irrelevant since that's not the point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDustyOne
The point here is to have a compromise between the "we want more DPS buttons to hit in downtime" and the "we don't" crowds. The idea of a compromise would be to allow the latter to continue to play as they do now - without engaging with the "new" buttons - and still be able to do the things they do now. Two readily apparent ways to do this are (a) leaving at least one Healer Job as it is today so the players not wanting to engage with "more DPS buttons" can play that Job and not have to (4 Healers Model) or (b) to give the healers more complex DPS kits, but tune them to where not engaging with them has a very small performance gap so that the players continuing to play as they do today are not harmed in the transition (including doing high end content, which they can do today with the current kits).
This isn't about parsing - as I said before, I don't care about parsing.
It comes down to how something FEELS to play. Feels good or feels bad. Something people wanting more buttons don't seem to understand is an issue with the people not wanting more buttons that would feel the more buttons "feel bad".
It'd be one thing if we were talking about a totally new Job, or a brand new game in development. But we aren't. We're talking about an existing game, and existing Jobs, with existing kits that you want to change out from under people.
I've said it before - it was bad to change SCH and SMN out from under people. It would be just as bad to change WHM and etc out from under people without giving them recourse or compensation. Everyone agrees gutting SCH was bad because it took something from people that liked SB SCH. The contra position is just as valid, that bloating WHM (and the others) with extra damage buttons and then making people that don't engage with them suddenly "bad players" despite them not being "bad" right now would be just as bad. (Specifically WHM, since even as far back as SB, it's played more or less as it does now - did a deep dive on this once and can post that for you if you haven't seen it - and was actually improved going into ShB; and arguably SGE, considering...well, it's only ever been this way, though it's also new so "growing pain" changes can still be justified, especially with SCH still matching a lot of the kit if not perfectly the feel...)
We're not talking about other roles or other kits. We're talking about a compromise so that people who want to break with the status quo so they aren't bored get to do so without harming or impacting other players who do not want to break with the status quo and actually prefer maintaining it.
That is, you want something, but you have to give something to the side that is giving up something for your benefit. Equivalent Exchange. Especially when they're giving up a lot for your benefit and getting nothing in return - the people who like healers as they are right now are getting nothing from any of these proposals, even the 4 Healers Model robs them of 3 Healer Jobs. They're entirely losing out for your collective benefit and getting nothing for their trouble other than being called names for arguing that you not get EVERYthing from them.
.
And no, "read your tooltips" is NOT how you get how to play Jobs. Tooltips, for example, do not say oGCD and GCD (they say "Ability" and "Weaponskill/Spell", but don't tell you what that means). They don't tell you how to optimize gauge use. They don't tell you much of anything other that combo chain connections. Again, there ARE a few exceptions to this - like SMN. The very Job that hardcore people hate with a passion.
I won't speak on this topic further, but "all you need to be optimal is to read your tooltips" has never been true. It's not even true of SMN (it wouldn't tell you to delay your Festers for your 2 min windows, for example).
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I would wager some people here DO only think of Savage, but I'm not prosecuting that. I'm just pointing out that for changes that affect everyone, you must listen to everyone's viewpoints and use data that reflects all players. I was saying neither more nor less.
Something I tend to think of when people ask this kind question, "Why does this matter to you?":Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
If it matters to them/you, why should it not matter to me (or anyone else)?
If it's negligible...then what's it matter if it's 1% or 3%? "10% is nothing" so then why not 1% since it's also nothing? Since the difference is so irrelevant, then it's irrelevant if it was as little as 1%, is it not?
I've been curious about this; people suggest Selene returning would free up buttons on SCH by removing one. I've never understood how that's a saved button considering Summon Selene would be an additional button? Unless we're going to use SMN as a guide and have a Eos/Selene version of Gemshine, Astral Flow, and Precious Brilliance. Kind of like Eukrasia if it was a toggle? One might do Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, and ??? if Eos is out, while the button would instead do Fey Illumination, ????, and ????? if Selene was out instead? Is that the idea here?Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you compared NOW's "glare only" vs "glare and proper Dia and Misery use (2 and 1 time per minute, respectively".
That's not relevant since "the gameplay now" would be "Glare and proper Dia (every 30 sec) and Misery (1 per min) use". There's no gap between Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 2x Dia + Misery. They're the same thing. G+2D+M = G+2D+M. There's no gap there at all. No one is asking for Glarespam to = G+2D+M right now. The question is for someone playing as they do now (G+2D+M) to have a very small gap so that they aren't negatively impacted by the change, since the point of the change is for you to be "less bored", not to have "a skill gap"...riiiiight?
On the other hand, your idea would have a gap if one only used Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 4x Dia + Misery + Elements. A gap that is greater than 0. This is the relevant topic of discussion. Comparing that to "Glare only" isn't relevant, since we aren't talking about "Glare only" players. We're talking about "Glare + 2 Dia + Misery" players. (Also Assize, but you get the point.)
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As for what you want: That's dodging the question. I take it the answer is that you would prefer 3 change to none change, you just don't want to be on the record saying such for I suppose obvious reasons? But prove me wrong by answering the question straight.
The Devs do supposedly look at feedback, even things like this. Though what messages they get out of it...
As for the rest:
I pointed out what was different, and we don't have a "Blessing of the Elements" button, so clearly that's difference, as would be gauge optimization, which I've been told is a big deal (on WAR), so we can't ignore that, and it doesn't change the fact 0-100 gauges are boring and overused at this point, we don't need ANOTHER one in the game. I thought we opposed homogenization?
A lot of the button consolidation cases are different to different people. I never felt I "lost" Esuna...considering I still have Esuna. (Aside: I more felt I lost Leeches on SCH, since that played into the class identity as a Doctrine of Humors physician). Never felt I "lost" Shroud, considering I still have it (effectively) in Lucid.
Stoneskin is different because it was a spamable (no CD) ability replaced with an oGCD with a time gate. Assize is "button we use on CD". If we cut the CD in half and made it a GCD, it would still be "button we use on CD, but now we get to hit it more often". That is, you're replacing effectively a 40 sec CD button with a 15 sec CD button. Considering how little WHM gameplay revolves around weaving and you don't really powerweave Assize (if Assize was a GCD right now, you'd use it literally the same way you use it now), that's a negligible change, you're just getting a more frequent used CD. I think most people would take that as a win. And normalizing damage isn't hard; average it out and split it up across abilities. Even under your model, it's not like WHM has a ton of them so it wouldn't be hard to either spread them out evenly (weighted) to maintain ability damage in relation to each other OR alternatively just dump it all into Misery. The point being, balancing that is easy, that's not an excuse not to do it.
This also doesn't cover BoE which, as I said, you can just make PoM upgrade into and cut the CD to 60 sec, no silly gauge required. Why exactly would it not work? You still have the more varied stuff to do, so why is that insufficient...but some magical gauge that you have to try to shoehorn into a 2 min burst all the same is somehow better? What does that have to do with boredom?
Again, this is the part where my brain goes "why are we talking like DPS players?", because that's a very DPS thing to want/do.
As for Lily barrier: We already have Benison. We don't need YET ANOTHER button (when Solace and Rapture are borderline redundant AS IT IS) unless you're removing Benison. We already have button bloat, something you know I've argued before. Now, if you meant REPLACE Solace and Rapture, then we can have a conversation, but at that point, why keep Benison around? Just give us back Stoneskin (single target) and Protect (AOE, basically Stoneskin2 usable in combat) as GCDs, and do that thing where if you have a Lily, it makes them instant and cost no MP. Then remove Benison. We still end up around the same place this way in terms of numbers of buttons. That is, remove Solace, Rapture and Benison, add Stoneskin and Protect, make Stoneskin and Protect GCDs with an MP cost, and if you have a Lily, they instead are instant cast, consume no MP, and nourish the Blood Lily (and do this same thing with Cure 2 and Medica, making Solace and Rapture removable. Can even have the icon and spell animation change when you have a Lily).
I do agree - again, as you know and as I've said, despite you not acknowledging it - that removing the pure/barrier split is a good idea and one I agree with. Again, we've agreed on this point before, so I don't know why you're acting like we don't now. We just disagree on how to achieve it. I see it as doable using the existing buttons we have, you seem to think that we need "more buttons! some indeterminate amount of more!" when...we really don't.
Also note: Did you miss the part where I said "If you do this with these buttons, I'd agree with your idea"?
And it's not like what I'm asking is onerous or defeats the point of your suggestion. Assize into Water/Banish doesn't defeat it, since your suggestion doesn't even mention Assize, much less have its current form necessary in any way. Having PoM upgrade into BoE as a 60 sec CD to give you Quake/Tornado/Flood means you still have those extra abilities that you're using to get your dopamine hit from elemental spells and mixing up your animations; the only thing changed here is you aren't futzing with a gauge that is a curse on literally every Job that has one other than maybe RDM. AND, optimal play would still have the player trying to fit that to the 2 min meta/PoM usage anyway. It's sort of the "Does PLD really need Fight or Flight AND Requiescat as two separate buttons?" argument.
This is you not taking yes for an answer.
I'm not trying to be hardnosed on this, I just legitimately do not understand why that isn't an acceptable compromise. You're getting 4x Dias per min, you're getting a big CD burst every minute, you're getting the elemental spells you always say you want, you're getting an additional GCD several times a minute...I'm failing to see why this isn't acceptable?
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The rest I'm not responding to, namely the insult/goading jab at the end.
Agreed. I've seen people suggest taking things like Succor or Soil from SCH, and it's weird to me because those are iconic abilities. Yet people will die on the hill of Energy Drain for some reason, despite it being the most negligible and uninteresting thing in the Job. (Sure sure, people say optimizing it is a challenge, but the effect of it is nearly nonexistent while Succor and Soil are both visually apparent and can have major impacts on encounters and party survival, as well as being very clear and apparent examples of SCH's class fantasy of being a protective barrier healer. Of all the things to remove, I can't imagine why anyone would think removing those would be a good idea.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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Annnnnd I'm just taking someone's advice and ignoring a certain someone now. -
11-17-2023, 06:29 AMSaraideNo, this is exactly the reason why so much in this thread is about damage complexity instead of healing complexity. Upping the healing requirement has a much much bigger risk of alienating bad healers than increasing the damage complexity. Changing the healing part affects everyone, changing the damage part does not. For the simple reason that every piece of content has heal checks but only higher end content has dps checks (i am aware of althyk). And in that situation if you wanted to still just spam your basic attack you could do that and not face any troubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-17-2023, 07:08 AMRenathras
Actually, question:
What do you guys think the Devs will do with Healers in DT as of the way things stand right now?
Is something like "main spam attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), aoe attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), possibly DoT upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), something in their kit gets a second charge, some new healing oGCD" a pretty reasonable assumption? -
11-17-2023, 07:12 AMAmiableApkalluHot take: The current status quo for healers has no place. Period. Full stop. Gameplay where it's incredibly common to spend 50+% of your time mashing a single action belongs in the arcades of old, not a modern PC or console MMO(-ish) RPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Now, anyone is welcome to argue that that time should be re-allocated towards healing actions, and they are welcome to do so with proposals with the same level of detail as "more damage button" proposals – detailed enough to evaluate, perhaps imperfectly, whether time has actually been re-allocated in a meaningful way, without unacceptable adverse effects. That would be a far more constructive response than, "BuT wHaT iF sOmEoNe LiKeSoNe-BuTtOn SpAmSiMpLe GaMePlAy?" -
11-17-2023, 07:26 AMAmiableApkalluPreviously: Dawntrail Healer Change Predictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Some folks also addressed this in another thread. -
11-17-2023, 07:52 AMRenathrasHot take: More DPS buttons on healers has no place. Period. Full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
It's irrelevant - some people do like it. That is relevant. (Also, most people DO say they want to replace the downtime with more healing - and are promptly told that's impossible, trying to get them to agree to more DPS instead. If the option is "more DPS" or "more healing", I choose more healing. If the option is "more DPS" or "nothing/keep things as they are", I choose nothing.)
So more or less agreement that the status quo is the baseline what we're getting? Hm...Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
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11-17-2023, 08:31 AMSaraide"2) Don't engage in hyperbole."Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-17-2023, 08:52 AMForsakenRoe- You don't even know what you're arguing against, and this kinda shows it. The two 90% effectiveness ratings were derived from 'Glarespam now, vs Glares and optimal Dia refresh timings (2x)', on a dummy situation. Misery was not included because it is equal to the Glares it costs. By comparison, the 90.7%, from my design, was 'Glarespam, vs 15 Glares, 5 Dias, 4 Banishes', again ignoring Misery, or Blessing and it's refunds, because they're damage neutral and wouldn't be used on a dummy. The reason I used 'Glarespam with zero DOT uses' for both, is because my DOT would be 12s, and does not divide correctly into the 30s of the current game. It is easier to do a comparison between 'best case' and 'worst case', instead of some weird halfway point like 'in current game, player uses the DOT once (30s), whereas in Samantha-land, the player uses the DOT 2 times (24s)' because that'd cause irregularities due to the missed ticks, and paint a distorted picture. Also, It's 5 Dia's per minute with my design, not 4. If you want to compare someone who uses EXACTLY the current rotation, that is, 22 Glares and 2 Dias per minute (again ignoring Misery), then it'd be 7,680p per minute, which is 86.7% of 'fully optimal Samantha-design'. No doubt this 'proves' that the design is flawed and will cause enrages for years to come (spoilers, it doesn't, the game's built with some leeway in mind, me and my '31 Succors first-clear of P11S' are testament to that)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
- Sod your record. I would prefer to have all four healers change, and have room for a player to express their skillset on them, than for three/two/one/zero of them to change. I believe that leaving any healer in the state it is in, is a grave mistake, and a failure of game design principles. If SE changes 'less than all four' and leaves any to rot, that is their decision and I'll play one of the ones that didn't get left to stagnate. You will not catch me saying the exact line you want me to say, because I don't trust it to be quoted with full context. I also don't believe it, so why would I say it? If SE decides to do only three for whatever reason, it's entirely up to them and nothing any of us say will change anything. However, I believe that WHM getting left to rot, while the other three get improved, would cause a SB level exclusion from PF, which is why I insist on all four. Not to deprive you of your job (as the maths shows, your Ninja's Hyosho Dhit Critting vs not is about the same potency loss as 'purposely using only 2 Dias per minute instead of the possible 5'), but because I don't particularly feel like seeing SB's WHM exclusion again. So I expect SE will either change all four, or more likely, change none of them. God I hope the AST rework doesn't suck, but chances are it will be even more WHMlike.
- Name a Healer that has a 0-100 gauge that is built by using damage or healing GCDs, and spends 50 on a damage-neutral heal. Homogenization only applies if the two 'homogenized things' are in the same category. Since one's a healer (WHM) and one's a tank (WAR), it's a nonsense comparison to make, and it makes you look like you're grasping at straws. Is it 'homogenization' for RPR to have it's Enshroud mechanic because it works 'kinda similarly to MCH'? Or DNC and WAR because they both spend 50 gauge on 'big hit' (Saber Dance/Fell Cleave)? Should we delete everything until we have exactly one of each design element? Goodbye every melee then, sorry but DRG was the first to have 1-2-3 combos, so NIN/SAM/RPR/MCH/All four tanks have to go byebye. Cancel Viper too
- Lucky you, that you don't 'feel you lost anything'. I remember the discourse back then, of how much was removed from WHM and repackaged back to them. From the job guide at the time:
* The following actions were removed with the release of patch 4.0: Cleric Stance, Protect, Esuna, Stoneskin, Shroud of Saints, Divine Seal, Stoneskin II.
And so WHM had to spend 4 of it's 5 Role slots at the time, buying back things it already HAD in HW!
- I've played this game for 8 years. What the hell is a powerweave
- You are so desperate to shoehorn in 'no additional buttons on hotbar' that you sand off all the details. The reason it is not a 60s CD that replaces POM is because then it'd be a 60s CD that replaces POM. Replacing one button with another CAN work, but WHM is so barebones in systems compared to say AST, that it can afford to have things just 'added'. You're asking for something akin to 'hey what if we added Primal Rend, but remove Onslaught'. They're both gapclosers, so it's fine, right? Making the ability a 60s CD that empowers your spells would 'function', but it'd be lame as hell. Because, it's a 60s CD. You'd just use it on CD, with little to no deviation, or creativity in when and where to use it. As a damage neutral heal, it has versatility, it can be shifted around to better line up with raidbuffs, juggling it AND Lilies so that you go into raidbuffs with Misery AND two stacks of Quake/Flood/Tornado would be the optimization game that people seek in the class. And because it's 'damage neutral'. The gain is absolutely miniscule, such that you'd never notice it unless you were parsing. And you don't care about parsing or percentages, so it won't affect you. So there's no issue, and you just want to argue for the sake of it, or because you can't accept you were wrong about the maths
- Again, we don't need to 'remove' things from the class with the least buttons already. YOU might want every class to conform to a total button count of 32. SE clearly doesn't care about that. I'll go with SE's ruling on it over yours, but I also would consolidate things that can be consolidated. So I'd only add two buttons technically, those being the shield Lily spenders. Without those, I'm button-neutral so I don't want to hear about it.
- Re-read things. The 'indeterminate amount' is either 0 (if shield Lily spenders are NOT added), or 2 (if they are added). It's an extremely determinate amount and has been for the better part of a year. There was a time when it'd have been 3 (by adding Cleric Stance as a 60s CD) but I don't care enough about it to keep bringing it up, so 2 or 0 it is.
- DRG Gauge is a curse? I kinda prefer it over 'looking at my buff bar to see if I have BOTD timer spare'. NIN's Huton gauge is a curse? Again, I'd rather look at it than the buff for Huton that jumps all over the place when shields and raidbuffs get applied. I can't imagine half of the jobs we have now without a gauge. What the hell would BLM do without it's gauge? What would BRD? The reason I'd add this element to WHM's gauge is simply: It barely HAS a gauge right now. It's a very pretty over-decorated graphic that tells you 'Solace/Rapture have 3 shared Charges, here is how many you have' and the Misery counter. This could all be done without a gauge at all, by just having 'Blood Lily Blooming' as a buff with no timer, and at 3 stacks you can execute Misery. The WHM Gauge is so hollow at the moment, it could do with what I suggested just to get it up to the level the other healers are at. SCH has two elements (AF/Fairy), SGE has two (Addersgall/sting), AST has... a lot going on (Major/Minor/Seals for Astrodyne). WHM's uniquely 'empty'
- Again, it's 5 Dia's a minute. It's hard to take what you say seriously when you can't even get the details of what you're arguing against right. But for the other stuff, I don't want a big CD burst every minute. We have Misery for that. You have taken what I asked for, a gauge that charges a powerful GCD heal, and turned it into 'what if it was a 2min meta conforming damage CD?'. If you cannot understand why anyone would find that unacceptable, I'm not sure we're playing the same game. The two things (GCD heal/60s damage steroid) have like, one thing in common: that they'd be a button on your hotbar that you press. Also, if it's a damage CD that you press every 60s, you introduce the potential for someone to drift it, losing them damage for the rest of the fight, and potentially even more if that loses them a use. Oh, and both WOW and FF have the same issue on the last point: A GCD that doesn't do anything directly feels awful to press. I've seen complaints about how bad Bahamut feels to summon, because he doesn't do anything for that GCD. It is a 'dead button', only there to activate the 'actual damage' buttons. OGCDs prevent this feeling somewhat, as they don't cause 'dead air' in the rotation. IDK why Bahamut can't do one Akh Morn on summon, and a second when enkindled (same damage, but the summon button has damage attached to make it feel better)
tl;dr you missed the point of why I made design decisions I did to such an extent, it's almost impressive -
11-17-2023, 09:10 AMSebazyPretty much, I'm fully expecting DT to be patch 5.11 or thereabouts, still sticking firmly to the foundations laid by Shadowbringers. SE's bean counters certainly aren't going anywhere, thus I suspect it'll take a change of guard at the top of CBU3 to get any real shifts at this stage. The development direction is supremely cautious and risk averse. Big sweeping role changes are risky, thus as much as I want to see a big change, I don't think we're going to get it until the game eventually has a pretty significant crash in player subscriptions. Even then I suspect it'll follow FFXI's template of more and more focus on NPC parties to do 'group' content rather than a significant attempt to revitalise gameplay, thus the groundwork we see being laid these last few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
That's not a fair comment at all and you *should* know that. Of course it's possible to replace the downtime with more healing. But tell me, how does that work in solo duties? How does that work in more casual endgame content like the current Alliance raids? How does that work in intermissions in high end content? How does that work in puzzles such as Rubicant? How does that work when I'm duoing maps with a friend?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Are you telling me that an Agitated Apkallu should see me coming and start busting out the Harrowing Hells so I have something to do? Is that comment truly hyperbolic given that a less drastic increase in damage taken is likely going to have me dropping an Asylum etc and pretty much continuing the Glarespam as normal?
A significant enough increase in healing pressure to make an actual impact in something like an Alliance raid is going to cause problems for less skilled players. We've seen this with bosses like Thunder God Cid where more casual healers would get overwhelmed with the combination of movement, cleansing and healing often resulting in unfortunate vote abandons etc rather than working at it and trying to improve to get the clear.
A significant enough increase in damage complexity is going to make next to no difference in the same context. The same struggling player may do less damage overall (And that's assuming they were even doing decent damage with existing kits which most certainly isn't a given) but what exactly is that going to impact here? -
11-17-2023, 09:21 AMty_taurusAgain, discussion about the ability for one to clear content is missing the point of his argument. Regardless of how significant or insignificant any added DPS abilities may be to a person's ability to clear, the issue is that if every healer has this new series of attacks to work with, a player who engages with that new series of attacks is going to be a "better player" than someone who doesn't perform that added depth optimally, or chooses to abstain from it. The only way you're going to convince him to accept some form of added DPS variety to White Mage (or whichever healer is selected to be the "simple healer") is if that added depth is exactly as strong as DoT + Glarespam, or is weaker than DoT + Glarespam. Because that way, the "playstyle" of wanting to perform as effectively as a master without any of the training or practice of a master is preserved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-17-2023, 09:28 AMAmiableApkalluIn the great Wikipedia tradition: [Citation needed]Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What's claimed -- or what I personally believe, anyway (if I don't want to speak for others without citing them) -- to be "impossible" is replacing ALL downtime, or nearly all downtime, with healing. And I've yet to see anyone demonstrate otherwise in the context of FFXIV.
There is most definitely room to replace some downtime with more healing. I think ty_taurus has a great graphic that depicts the current situation. -
11-17-2023, 09:38 AMAravellYou're missing the point by a mile again. I do not care whether or not this matters to you or anyone else, I am pointing out the fact that the damage loss from 10% shaved off filler spam is so negligible that anyone that tries to blame a healer for an enrage will look like an absolute tool. I am pointing out that "players will no longer be able to meet enrage by playing as they are now" is an extremely flawed argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Also, I don't know what world you live in where people who do 80%-90% of their total output is considered a bad player, but whatever. I will just say I completely disagree that a 1% difference is enough, I think effort should be rewarded and people who don't put in the effort should be nowhere close to optimal, I don't care if it makes someone feel bad. I felt bad too back when I just picked up healer and couldn't heal big pulls, I just practiced and got better, others can do the same if they choose to.
Everytime it's being pushed that people want to feel good about doing the best and any skill ceiling would be bad for them, I start to believe Ty more and more that this is about the funny coloured numbers on the numbers website, there's really no other reason to care if you're having fun. -
11-17-2023, 10:27 AMty_taurusYou're misconstruing the situation here. It's fairly well recognized that there is a problem with healer gameplay right now, only how severe of a problem that is does vary between the people you ask. Wanting more variety in healer DPS gameplay is a criticism that has been prominent in forum discussion since particularly Shadowbringers, and a common retort to that criticism is "why add more DPS when you can just make healers heal more?" And that sounds like it makes sense, because wouldn't you want healers to heal more frequently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The problem with that retort, though, is that in order for the amount of healing alone to satisfy the people who have an issue with healer design currently would require that all content, including things meant to be easy and simple, would need an astronomical increase to the frequency of outgoing damage and a dramatic rework of how healing kits work, and those of us who are very experienced healers who feel the pains of a boring DPS rotation recognize that the volume of healing we would need to make the one-button DPS structure no longer a pain point would require such an extreme increase in outgoing damage, that it would make the role unplayable for the average healer who currently struggles with content like Barb EX. It has been said multiple times at this point, which makes me confused as to why this is still being misunderstood, but I have not, nor have I seen anyone in the pro-DPS camp say that healing requirements cannot increase at all. Rather, what has been said is that they cannot be increased enough for us to be engaged in the healing role from the healing alone.
It would be great to see some increase to healing requirements and a return to an environment where healer gameplay more often involves utilizing healing GCDs rather than only relying on, or almost entirely relying on healing OGCDs. But we still would require an expansion of DPS tools in order to find the healer role sufficient. Just making healers heal slightly more often will only scratch the surface of the issue unless taken to such an extreme that the current healer population will crumble. -
11-17-2023, 10:47 AMForsakenRoeIt's kind of sad that the point keeps getting exhumed like some necromancer's minion, because I already went through the back-and-forth on the point. With who? Me. I knew ahead of time, while writing the original design a year ago, that someone would invariably say 'well what about the player who drifts Banish and doesn't keep it on CD, or drops Dia at times, or overcaps on gauge because they didn't need a single heal in that whole minute?', and I made adjustments based on those self-arguments. I've already 'fixed' the issues he raises, he just never got to see the original version. I also can't help but think that it's entirely about the funny numbers. If it's because 'being suboptimal feels bad', well he said he gets green-blue on EX trials and Savages, and purples in 24mans. By definition of how the colour brackets work, he's suboptimal as is. So am I, and so is everyone who doesn't consistently get gold/pink/high orange. By contrast, the one time I got an orange on healer this expansion, my reaction was not one of joy, but of sheer confusion. I often get middle-of-purple, how on earth did I get an orange that time? By doing the same thing I always did. I probably just crit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
But I recognise that some people want to be able to clear content without sweating about the fine details of optimization, so I did the design elements I did, so that people could make quite literally ANY mistake they want, so long as they don't make the big one: failing to keep the GCD rolling. And lo and behold, it's still not enough, it's never going to be enough. I could make Glare 3, Banish 3, and Dia, all do 350p each, so that no matter which GCD you used, it'd be the same damage. And STILL there'd be people doing more damage than others, be that because of 'some players put Blessing's refund into raidbuffs, some don't', or 'some players put Misery in raidbuffs, others don't', or 'some players use Banish and Dia effectively for mobility, others just drop GCDs entirely to move'. Or just Crit Variance, everyone's favourite feature. There's no way to make a design that is acceptable, because there's always going to be a way for someone more skilled than me or you or Ren or whoever, to deal more damage than us.
I play BLM like an ape, and RDM pretty badly too when I use them in EX roulette. I drop Thunder all the time. I sometimes forget that it's 60 gauge in AOE to do the RDM melee stuff, so I have to try and salvage it with Manafication if it's up. And god forbid I go as BRD, DOTs dropped, Songs refreshed off-sync, Refulgent procs overwritten, it's full clownshoe city. And yet, I still have enough fun that I don't think 'wow that was awful I'm never doing that again'. I don't care about how 'optimal' I was in the EX roulette, because it does not matter.
Fun's subjective and all, and I don't speak for everyone, but I'd imagine that being able to throw out such powerful spells as Quake/Tornado/Flood (for first/all other targets, Q: 410/205, T: 430/215, F: 450/225. Holy is 150, for comparison) in AOE pulls would be 'more fun' (compared to Holy until eyes bleed) to a lot more people than Ren cares to admit. I forgot to mention I'd make QTF have 50% AOE falloff so they can be used in AOE, and that Holy would give 2 gauge per mob hit (such that a pack of 7 mobs would give 14 gauge per cast). I'll go add that now, it might be a bit important. Problem with it though, is that it means 'having to' press the Glare/Dia/Banish keybinds, in AOE situations. 'Having to' being in quotes because you don't 'have to', nobody's got a gun to your head demanding those buttons be used. You could still use just Holy, or use Holy, and the heal to sustain the tank, and then because the pack's almost dead, hold the QTF casts for the opener on the next boss. That's an example of the 'versatility' I would like to inject into the job
Last time I did P11S, I was not terribly engaged with the healing required (because we're all BIS now). I was engaged with healing a couple of days ago, when I was healing Garuda. In UWU. I had not been in that fight in like, 2 years, so the rust meant I was using a lot more GCD shielding than usual (to the point where it was occasionally causing LB generation problems). I'm not of the opinion that 'we cannot increase healing requirements at all', I'm of the opinion that 'in order to 'solve' the issue using just 'healing requirements' adjustments, the amount we'd have to see healing requirements go up by is too high for most players to handle'. As a certain picture showed, there is no overlap between 'amount of healing most players can handle' and 'amount of healing required to make healers engaging as a role, with 'healing' being the primary source of engagement', there is no Venn diagram, it is two separate circlesQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I also think that it's way easier for the devs to add to the damage side of the kit than adjust the healing requirements. There's so little there, it's easy to find new design niches for new skills, to avoid another 'we didn't know what to do with SCH' moment. And unlike healing, if you 'get it wrong' with damage you lose a bit of damage (very minimal amount, if my yelling got through to SE). Whereas if you 'get it wrong' with healing, it can lead to deaths, wipes, and the dreaded 'player friction'. That's not to say we can't have more healing requirements. It's just more like... rather than boosting healing required by 100%, they add something like what I posted for WHM, and then boost healing requirements by 30-40%. -
11-17-2023, 10:54 AMmallleable
Another potentially whacky idea is to turn a good number of healing ogcds into gcds -- they can still be instant. And rework piety so that it reduces the cast, and recast time of healing gcds, and it stacks with spell speed. And add situationally spammable dual-purpose healing, and damage spells that are both affected by new Piety, and spell speed.
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11-17-2023, 11:08 AMAravellI want to address this point by pointing to another job, MCH. MCH has a very rigid rotation with some forced crits through Reassemble, the variance is very small in high-end content, but some MCH still do more damage than others, because of crits outside of Reassemble, because of drifting their tools, etc. There is absolutely no way to make sure everyone does the exact same output no matter what, even if you make the simplest/most rigid job in the world, even SMN has variance, and a lot of people think it's really simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
The main point though, is that content is not being gated from people if healers change. The dps check of Anabaseios is widely regarded as more lenient, and the amount a healer not performing at average loses is so negligible that it's mind-boggling that anyone is even trying to argue that they'd be gated from content. I'm thinking that people don't actually understand how little healers contribute to the total damage nowadays. The gap between a grey and high orange WHM is about 3000 dps, that's around a 62.5% gap in performance, looks like a large amount, right? That's 4.69% of the P9S dps check, the melee DPS critting some big hits would immediately cover that difference. -
11-17-2023, 02:54 PMRenathrasMy god, you people are desperate for your gotchas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
To be PRECISE, I've been told it CANNOT be the solution because it can't be done. It would require changing literally - not hyperbole, LITERALLY - every last encounter in the game's entire history, and that doing so cannot be done in any way that wouldn't make parties fail content left and right as novice healers would be completely incapable of dealing with the damage, and that the damage would, with our present healing kits, require insane amounts of damage at an extremely high pace to actually tax the kits.
If you don't use "impossible" to describe that, I'm not sure what word you would use. But that sounds like "impossible" or "effectively impossible" to me.
Anyway, if you're going to pull a Sabezy, you can be put in the /ignore as well. I'll just take Thurmnmurmn's advice and not engage with the heckling.
No, but I suspect we're arguing about different things, and I'm uninterested in trading insults. When you are ready to NOT do that, hit me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Breaking my ignore for a moment to say "see above".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Saying it cannot be done is effectively the same as saying it's impossible. Saying the damage required would be too much for anyone to deal with is also pretty close to saying it's impossible. Saying every single encounter would have to be redone and that the Devs will never do this is also pretty much saying it's impossible.
I'm not sure what you'd call that, but to me, when people tell me something CANNOT be done, that sounds like saying it's impossible. "Acshually...!", no, no "acshually". "won't happen doesn't mean it's physically impossible" is irrelevant. Won't happen means won't happen. Won't happen means impossible. There's no reason to parse it: That's the argument that has been made over and over again.
"We can't make up the boredom with healing because the healing required to stress our kits would be nearly constantly one-shotting the entire party, novice healers would be completely unable to deal with that, parties would wipe constantly, raid teams would break apart, and the devs would have to redo every encounter in the game...so the only solution for our boredom and 'bad healer design' is to have more DPS actions."
That has literally been used before, including in this thread, as an argument. I'm pretty sure even you have used some version of it. I also wasn't passing judgement. I was accurately stating that I have been told in no uncertain terms this is a thing that cannot be done successfully - in other words, it is impossible and cannot be the solution to our problem.
So the ultimatum given is "more DPS actions or nothing/no change", and of those two, I would choose "no change". We need a third option. The entire reason I push the 4 Healers Model all the time is because it IS a third option, but setting it aside, it has absolutely been the argument of the "more DPS buttons" side that "more healing" is not a valid solution or, at best, can only be a partial solution and would still require more DPS buttons alongside it to make up the gap.
I don't know why you guys are insisting this isn't true now when it's been one of the main arguments used to advocate for more DPS buttons for quite some time here.
Annnnd now I'm ignoring you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
That isn't true, we both know it's not true, and you think that attacks and slander - completely devoid of any actual argument - is now a good argument. So I'm taking Thurmnmurmn's advice and just not engaging.
Okay, I'm confused: Is it impossible or isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
I was just accused of hyperbole for saying this was impossible, but here you are saying it's...impossible, citing no one giving a valid mechanical proposal of it as evidence of it being impossible.
/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
At the risk of sounding like a child: No, you are.
If a gap of 0-10% is negligible, than picking 1% instead of 3% or 10% shouldn't matter. If 10% is negligible, how is 1% "not enough" when 10% isn't significant? That makes no sense. That's like a person saying $1.99 is basically $2, but $1.95 is clearly not. That makes no sense.
And no, Ty is being an [expletive deleted], and so I'm not going to entertain you doing the same, either. But, unlike him, you've engaged in actual discussion here, and I still have a question I wish you'd answer.
Legitimately, because I think it's a far better line of discussion than ANY of the rest of this nonsense - an answer to the question I asked you before:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
I'm not asking to make some point or attack you or anything. I'm genuinely trying to figure out what specifically you loved about SB Healers so I can actually try to think of compromises that would offer you that. Would you please offer an answer to those questions. The "what you loved" one specifically? Please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Okay, an actual post that isn't heckling. Thank god. I can work with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Keep in mind, I speak mostly from a WHM perspective at the time. When ShB hit, we were elated. After sucking for the better part of two expansions, the Job felt REALLY good to play. I've yet to find someone complaining about Misery even to this day in terms of feel and the mechanic being good (the only complaint about it was in 6.0 since it didn't get a potency bump to keep up with Glare, which was fixed in 6.1). While SE was promising "more healing needed in encounters" even back then, at the time, no one cared. It felt good to play and "More blood for the blood lily!" chants rang throughout the land.
SCH...was a different story. AST, too. But WHM was not.
Keep in mind my position has never been not to change those two to address those issues. At any point. WHM's problem has always been its identity doesn't make sense in FFXIV of having powerful, efficient heals...and even if it DID, AST's heals are just as powerful and MORE efficient in both HPS and HPM, and also being able to be a Barrier Healer for 20 seconds out of every 2 mins. But in terms of the general play, it's far more dynamic than the other three. Recall when we broke down the healer rotations and found, to the shock of everyone (that almost instantly faded to "Ooooh, yeah. Yeah that does make sense..."), WHM is the least "Glarespamy" of the Healers, with SCH actually being the worst offender, insult to injury from its fall from once being the most DPS involved of the healers.
The problem is that not everyone IS dissatisfied with healer design now. So the discussion cannot be only "what would satisfy the people dissatisfied" with no real concern for the people who aren't in that group and are having to give things up and having nothing left for them. Solutions MUST account for both positions, and most proposals have not been. It's always "Well, this wouldn't work because the people bored might still be bored..." never "Well, THAT wouldn't work because the people currently happy would be unhappy". Why do they not matter? "Because no one cared when SCH's were gutted!"? That's not true at all. Moreover, two wrongs do not make a right anyway, even if that was true.
Also, forgive me, but I find it funny you're saying "It has been said multiple times at this point" when I just got accused of hyperbole by mentioning it. Note I didn't say "at all". I said "replace downtime with healing".
I also don't think we need an expansion of DPS tools "to find the healer role sufficient". To some people, it's already sufficient. To some to whom it is not, more GCD healing WOULD make it sufficient. But there ARE some to whom it still would not be. So it's clear we need to have some Healer Job option with more DPS options to be sufficient for those people.
The problem is, we can't do that with ALL the healers, since that would then break the first two groups.
An all of the above approach seems more in order.
You once before took the opposed extreme position to my own - in exasperation - of wanting SGE to be this thing so you'd have at least _A_ Healer Job you could enjoy playing. This is the way I've felt for two years grappling with you on this asking for at least _A_ Healer Job that I could enjoy playing - and though I still believe WHM makes the most sense, recall I said at various points any of the others and, at one point, ANY of the others. So you recognize the feeling of being isolated on an island and wanting just SOMETHING to cling to. I'm not sure why you can't extend this to the people opposed to you, but at least the concept exists in a way you understand it.
What I don't understand is why, when you in desperation would ask "Can I just have ONE?!", you would reject "How about we give you THREE?" with "No! Unless I get all FOUR, it doesn't count."
When you've already been at the rock bottom point of "Can I just have SGE?", I don't understand why you'd then reject "How about we give you SCH, AST, and SGE?"
This is a pretty fair idea, though it would vary wildly between healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
For example, Assize as a GCD (if we're talking the heal) would basically be Medica. Tetragrammton as a GCD already exists, it's Cure 2. Or Afflatus Solace, if you have a Lily. (Technically Cure 2 upgrades to do 100 more potency, but you get the idea). I do support this, don't get me wrong, but there are some oGCDs that would just go away (which...would be fine) because they're identical to a GCD the Job already has.
Piety as a sort of Det for healing Spell Speed is kind of a novel idea. Hadn't heard that one before, but it's interesting to at least think about... -
11-17-2023, 03:26 PMAravellI made a point, you took a tangential point from the main point and argued against it, I told you that's not the point I'm making, and now you're telling me I'm missing the point I'm making?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Whatever. I don't care to argue that point. Here are the facts:
1) A loss of 10% from current average healer dps barely makes a dent in the total required damage to beat the dps check in a savage floor, even less of a dent in extremes.
2) A 10-20% difference is a good reward in terms of the direct output from the healer.
3) You will never be the cause of an enrage as a healer as long as you're doing your main job of keeping the party alive.
4) Arguing that suboptimal healers would be gatekept out of content if they lost any damage from being made more complex is a flawed argument and has been thoroughly debunked multiple times.
The main point: 10-20% of a healer's dps is negligible in beating any enrage, but is a suitable reward for the effort put into maximising the job.
Do you understand now? We want healers to be satisfying to master, that's the point of a skill ceiling. A 1% difference is a garbage reward for reaching the skill ceiling, that's like receiving a participation trophy. I'm going to ignore your distasteful comments in favour of keeping things civil.
As for your questions, I've already answered them a few pages back. -
11-17-2023, 04:10 PMty_taurusThere have been criticisms of the lily system. One is that Misery is learned way too late. Being the core element to White Mage's gameplay, it will take a new player several hundred hours of story before they reach the point in which they'd normally learn Misery and actually "unlock" the lily system entirely. Prior to level 74, Solace is just a no MP cost Cure II in an environment where MP costs are rarely an issue. Additionally, there's also the point that the lily system encourages unhealthy uses of Solace and Rapture, encouraging the player to burn them to avoid capping on lilies even when the healing isn't needed, and also burning them during phase changes or between pulls to fuel Misery, thus wasting the actual healing. The lilies are a good concept, but it needs polish and the perception of a designer with a more intimate understanding of how healers prioritize actions in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
One thing I've suggested would be to give White Mage a Six-Sided Star equivalent that doesn't do damage or anything, but nourishes the blood lily. If you aren't familiar, Monk's action "Six-Sided Star" is a potent GCD attack that elongates your GCD when its used. Instead of waiting 2.5 seconds before you can use another GCD, you have to wait 4 seconds to use another GCD after Six-Sided Star. It's supposed to function as a disengage tool for Monk... a way to throw out a hefty amount of damage before you have to leave melee range. With this White Mage tool, an instant cast spell that nourishes the blood lily but halts your GCD for 4 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds means it's a DPS loss, but allows you to nourish the blood lily between dungeon pulls or during a phase change without burning lily heals needlessly for the purposes of damage.
In regards to the discussion of replacing glare spam with more intricate DPS gameplay or more healing, the people who I'm referring to when I mention those who ask "why not ask for more healing," are the ones directing that statement to the people who are complaining about the healer role. Someone pops in and doesn't understand why the proposed solution is more DPS when, in their mind, we should be asking for more healing and not asking for more DPS. And again, this is targeted specifically to the people who have a problem with healers. What I'm trying to clarify is that the stance I and others who are dissatisfied have taken is not "no, don't add more healing. Only add more damage." It's "I'm happy to see more healing, but I will still need more damage regardless, because the amount of healing we can reasonably get will not be enough to resolve the issue I have with healers."Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
In other words, it's a proposed solution that will either fail to address the core concern from those that are dissatisfied, or if it did address that core concern, it would come at the cost of everyone else's ability to even play the role. And none of us are advocating to destroy the ability for the casual player to access the role.
Something you need to fundamentally understand with the conflict you have with people like Roe and Aravell and the like who are not satisfied with just leaving White Mage as-is is that their position is not to make White Mage inaccessible, impossible to play as, or punishing to the common healer. On the contrary, they talk about making it more approachable to the average player, but while also adding some amount of modest selection of DPS attacks that also allow them to gain a few extra inches of optimization--something that will not have an adverse effect on the common player.
Now, you have disliked this take, because it would mean that playing White Mage to the best that it can perform would require engaging in that added DPS gameplay, but being required to be a master White Mage and being required to be a successful White Mage are not the same thing. You can still feel the way you feel and want a path of little-to-no resistance to master for the job, but recognize that wanting the job to be inherently easy to master is not a requirement for it to be easy to play. What they believe in is Bushnell's Law: The best video games are easy to play and difficult to master. - Nolan Bushnell. -
11-17-2023, 04:42 PMfulminatingsomething along those lines. I just think it's beyond stupid that scholar has an introductory cutscene saying that not only is there a difference between eos and selene, but selene exists. It wasn't even removed for anything, just randomly in the middle of the expansion for no reason. Again it's the issue of SE seemingly being unable to bother giving something a rework and instead the bathwater out with the baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-17-2023, 06:20 PMSebazyBut I literally just said that it absolutely is possible? It's not even difficult tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Again, that's not what I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I'm not referring to you, I or likely anyone that's reading this thread, I'm referring to the calibre of healer who got overwhelmed on more difficult Alliance raids where they were forced to multi task and failed. These aren't people who make mistakes and deal sub optimal DPS, these are people that struggle to press buttons at all when they are under pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Slap an instant cast 6 second aoe pulse proc or something on a bosses auto attacks and you've just launched it's outgoing damage to the moon for very little effort. Do the same with a rock buster style tank hit/cleave and you're good to go. Do I think the Devs will do this? I highly doubt it. Again, remember that we've had prior history with this, and it got nerfed into the floor in a hurry. I'm not swinging my own opinion around, I'm gauging my thoughts based on SE's previous actions from back when we had a alliance boss that was a bonafide healer competency check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If you genuinely think that this and my previous post are merely me heckling you then I don't really know what to say other than that the only impossibility here is actually having any kind of intelligent debate with you if you're just going to assume that any degree of disagreement is just people trying to farm meaningless likes from you.
Again, let me spin this round back to you: How do you increase the healing requirements on a maps farm to the point where a couple of Chocobos can't do my job for me? How do you make that scale so that it is sufficient to keep a sweaty Entropy healer in BiS engaged whilst also being manageable by a fresh out of leveling rookie who's in dungeon gear and thinks that the current alliance raids are stressful?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Serious question btw, none of those words are close to 'impossible' and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that it is. What I am trying to suggest is that A) It's a *LOT* of work to achieve this and likely requires things such as iLvl scaling or fixed % gear ignoring attacks (neither of which feel particularly good for the player as they both render gear progression a non entity) and B) Casual content like maps isn't even intended to be challenging content, that's not the point of it. It's relaxing stuff that you do with friends and the real fun comes from being on voice and just mindlessly gassing away whilst you run it.
Thus, if you tuned the healing requirements up so that this was where the engagement for healers came from, they would be the only role that was forced to be sweaty in this otherwise extremely casual content. The DPS and tanks can just press one button and it'll be slow but fine, but they have the option to get stuck in and actually try hard and get some small reward for doing so. Healers? Not so much. If the healer can kick back and heal it with 1 button, where's the engagement? We're back to square one again.
I did a search on the last couple of pages for 'one shot'. 1 result. Yours. I can't say I remember seeing anyone mentioned busting raid teams up either? Didn't I make it clear I was focusing on more casual content since IMHO that's where the real issue with healer engagement is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Again, let me make this as simple and concise as I can:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
It absolutely can be done.
The problem is that it can only be done in a manner that alienates someone
It either needs to alienate the high end of the player base or it needs to alienate the low end of the player base
Right how we have the former
The only way I can think of to help ease this disparity and appease both sides of the coin with this is to make healing checks effectively ignore gear, that neither feels good for healers who are already usually last up to get gear in Savage statics as is and also doesn't play nice with certain specific defensive cooldowns (See Sins in T13), nor does it actually fix the problem since some healers will always be significantly better than others when it comes to coping with healing pressure and reacting accordingly.
Lastly, let me close with an direct question that will be the most enlightening thing here:
Answer me honestly... Do you think that the above is heckling? If so, care to expand on why? -
11-17-2023, 06:35 PMRein_eon_OsborneSo I have finally decided to revisit and do a little bit of tweaking on my own SCH idea, just gonna drop purely damage portion of the kit since that is what the thread was talking about. Time to butcherino kits yay~:Quote:
Remind me again that I have to revisit my own outdated file.
I'd like to go backward and start with their DoT first
Miasma III
GCD | 450 MP | 1.50s Cast time
Deals unaspected damage over time.
Potency: 45
Duration: 21s
Miasma IV
GCD | 1200 MP | 2.5s Cast time | 5y Radius
Deals unaspected damage over time & inflicts ‘Virus’ on all enemies within range.
Potency: 55
Duration: 15s
Virus: Reduce damage dealt by 3%. Effectiveness increases up to 10% as target's overall HP decreases, reaching its maximum effectiveness at 30% or less overall HP.
Additional Effect: each damage over time ticks has 20% chance of increasing fae gauge by 3p.
Bio IV
GCD | 400 MP | Instant
Deals unaspected damage over time.
Potency: 70
Duration: 12s
Biolysis
GCD | 450 MP | Instant
Deals unaspected damage over time.
Potency: 70
Duration: 30s
And now, their nukes & related mentions.
Broil IV
GCD | 400 MP | 2.00s Cast time | Radius 5y
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 240.
If target is suffering from 1 damage over time inflicted by you, potency is increased by 15 & each cast increases fae gauge by 1p.
If target is suffering from 2 damage over time inflicted by you, potency is increased by 30 & each cast increases fae gauge by 1p. Also damages the surrounding target with 70% damage fall off.
If target is suffering from 3 damage over time inflicted by you, potency is increased by 50 & each cast increases fae gauge by 2p. Also damages the surrounding target with 50% damage fall off.
Ruin II
GCD | 800 MP | Instant | Radius 5y
Deals unaspected damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 270 for the first enemy, and 30% less for all remaining enemies. Increases fae gauge by 1p.
Action changes into 'Kaustra' when under the effect of 'Piercing Sight'.
Kaustra
GCD | 700 MP | Instant | 15s Cooldown | 6y Radius
Deals fire damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 370 for the first enemy and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
If target is suffering from the effects of Bio, Miasma, or Biolysis inflicted by you, the effect timer is reset and extends the effect with 60% potency fall off.
Can only be executed when under the effect of 'Piercing Sight'.
Chain Stratagem
Ability | Instant | 120s Cooldown
Increases rate at which target takes critical hits by 10%. Also grants ‘Piercing Sight’ to self.
Additional Effect: Increases critical hit chance by 1% for every scholar’s damage over time that’s currently active upon the execution.
Duration: 15s
Deployment Tactic
Ability | Instant | 2 charges | 45s Recharge timer |15yerr 30y Radius I guess lol
Extends Galvanize and Catalyze effects cast on self or target to nearby party members.
Duration: Time remaining on original effect.
When targeting enemies, extends Biolysis, Bio, Miasma, and Chain Stratagem effects to other surrounding enemies with 60% less potency.
Energy Siphon
Ability | Instant | 2 charges | 30s Recharge timer | 5y Radius
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 120 to main target and 30% less to surrounding enemies. Increases Faerie Gauge by 15p & grants ‘Piercing Sight’ to self.
Piercing Sight: Able to execute ‘Kaustra’.
Additional Effect: Absorbs 10% of damage dealt to recover own’s HP.
Additional Effect: Restores 12% of Max MP.
That covers almost, if not all the damage related kits. Granted things like Energy Siphon & Deployment Tactic aren't made purely for dps which is to mirror the current application of Energy Drainthat I skillfully remove in my full rework
Will need more brainstorming to properly refine, but this is the gist of its DPS kits.
As usual, expect the whacky potency values. Math isn't my biggest forte lol.
At the very least in my mock 1 minute rotation incl the prepull Broil IV, I counted (hopefully correctly lol) that I managed bring down 23 casts of Broil IV + 2 Biolysis casts into 14-17 Broil IV casts depending on how much Bio IV are slotted in for safety movement and/or optimization *in a perfect scenario*. -
11-17-2023, 06:44 PMSaraideSpreading chain strategem in addition to the dots is a pretty cool idea. Getting big spreads is what makes scholar fun for me in frontline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
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11-17-2023, 08:24 PMMeciaDiabolos in Dun Scaith says hello, still putting tanks and healers in their place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
That kind of incoming damage everywhere else would absolutely alienate casuals. -
11-17-2023, 08:36 PMSaraideNah, havent you heard, we're all saying it's impossible. You cant have something that is impossible and also tried before. /sQuote:
Originally Posted by Mecia
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11-17-2023, 09:22 PMRein_eon_OsborneChain has been one of the few ‘partywide buff’ that never feels good to use in a wall pull, and it always gets desynced by the time the party reach each boss even if I do use it on the strongest mob (2 minutes buff normally had around 20-30s remaining before it comes off cooldown in my runs). The other similar offender was NIN’s Mug but at least Mug juices me with Ninkis to deploy Bunshin & Phantom Kamaitachi—Chain certainly did not juice me with similar dopamine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
It was also around the time when one of fellow forummonger suggested using in-game support feature to leave healer feedback: I wrote down the deployment tactic adjustment in one of those days. Fast forward to 6.1 pvp revamp, imagine both my excitement & disappointment when I saw something eerily similar to my suggestion gets implemented, but at the same time it’s not even in PvE mode lol.