How does SE justify these ten min enrages, but doesnt let anyone know their dps

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you do a slightly better rotation than someone else, and have a much higher gear, even your lowered DPS can be higher than them.

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Do people answer simple, direct questions around here?

Have you done any of the raids this tier in savage?

And now a followup question: Can you give me an example of a mechanic you can fail at and maintain or even increase dps while doing so? Particularly one where your rotation being "slightly better" with "much higher" (mind we're within 25 average iLv of each other in savage by necessity) gear yields enough added damage that the damage lost through failing a mechanic is nullified?

Mind, failing a mechanic in various savage fights can result in, but is not limited to: death (25% downgrade to ALL damage), double death (50% damage downgrade), damage down (My veraero/verthunders dropped to 1000 damage apiece when I got hit with this in v3s), vuln up (damage down on healers since they now have to focus your hp so you don't die, and if you do die, see death), getting damage down / vuln up on party members, and finally getting party members killed.

All of these mechanics that, failing them, reduce damage well past the point one person's godly dps can save the fight. So I'll return to my original point:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

So where does this "person who does mechanics flawlessly but has bad dps versus person who screws up every mechanic but has godly dps" image come from? Because I can't think of many fights where flubbing mechanics doesn't negatively impact your dps.

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I'll add it's not even a false dichotomy. It's not even a dichotomy, that second person just doesn't exist because if you're not doing mechanics you HAVE no DPS.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I think people look at the dummies wrong. the dummies don't tell you if you have what it takes to actually clear a savage or extreme fight. what they tell you is whether you at least have the potential to clear that fight before you even try. if you can't beat a dummy with 100% uptime there is no way at all you're going to be able to do enough dps to clear the actual fight without getting carried by the rest of the party..

they're an entry point basically. not a decree that you can clear it

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Which is exactly what I was saying, compared to the poster that I was responding to, who was insinuating that SSS is an accurate substitute for something like a parser or DPS meter. They were basically saying that we don't need DPS meters to know our own personal damage because the SSS dummies provide just that, where as they do not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, it does. It's, again, called training dummies. Instead of measuring numbers, people can measure how fast they kill it. What's best is that if you can kill it, whatever time remains, it means you do enough DPS, and you shouldn't care if people try to harass you into doing much more just because they have stupidly high standards.

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And just because you can clear a dummy with 100% uptime doesn't mean that you can clear the content with 100% uptime, or even the DPS you had when you cleared the dummy. There's a lot more that goes into clearing than just your damage per second. Like others have said, clearing savage is a balance act between executing mechanics and pushing out as much DPS as you possibly can. Which is why my argument about how SSS dummies are not an accurate representation of the fight still stands.

And to answer the last part of his quote: why would you settle for just enough DPS to clear the dummy? Why would you not want to push yourself to improve and push out more? I don't understand the mindset some have where they're fine with having "just enough" DPS or "just enough" skill to clear something. Why not push yourself to get even better? Where is the will for self-improvement?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Have you done any of the raids this tier in savage?

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No, I haven't.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- It's a DPS gain to use Life Surge on Wheeling Thrust or Fang & Claw if, and only if, you would otherwise have to delay it a full combo to line up with Full Thrust.

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I didn't need a parser or someone calling me out to know that. I just needed the desire to improve myself and knowledge from some DRG guide.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Like others have said, clearing savage is a balance act between executing mechanics and pushing out as much DPS as you possibly can.

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Which is not a DPS issue. Any top player will have its number go down until he learn how to deal with the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And to answer the last part of his quote: why would you settle for just enough DPS to clear the dummy? Why would you not want to push yourself to improve and push out more? I don't understand the mindset some have where they're fine with having "just enough" DPS or "just enough" skill to clear something. Why not push yourself to get even better? Where is the will for self-improvement?

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Parsers are not required to improve oneself, but are one of the best way for people to chastize other. And lazy people won't suddenly become invested if they see their actual numbers. The simple fact that you think "not wanting a parser" is the same as "just do barely enough" is part of the mentality I've issues with.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Parsers are not required to improve oneself, but are one of the best way for people to chastize other. And lazy people won't suddenly become invested if they see their actual numbers. The simple fact that you think "not wanting a parser" is the same as "just do barely enough" is part of the mentality I've issues with.

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Which wasn't what I was saying, but feel free to put words in my mouth. You said yourself that if you have the DPS to clear the dummy, you have enough for a Savage fight, so why bother to improve. Why bother to do more. That is what I take issues with. Why would you not want to improve? That doesn't have anything to do with wanting a parser or not wanting a parser.

In my experience, when people have asked for their numbers/if anyone was parsing a run, and they are told what they did, if it wasn't as high as they wanted or what they thought, what did they usually say? "I will see what I can do better to bring those numbers up, because I have done higher before/want to do better." Again, I have met ONE person that ever harassed people in a party over their parses, and, ironically enough, that person wasn't even top DPS, much less pulling the numbers they were expecting everyone else to pull.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, I haven't.

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Thank you for the answer.

I find fault in your ideology regarding parsers. You assume the worst of people, and it's not necessarily a fair assumption or an accurate one. Now I have to ask if you have any evidence at all to support your claims that parsers lead to the behavior you are claiming they will.

I do think it's rather funny how they officially call the role "DPS" but there is no in-house way to actually determine what that figure is.

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Enrage is not about parse results, it is about dying too much.

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I've seen enrages happen in fights where nobody died, so not really.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You said yourself that if you have the DPS to clear the dummy, you have enough for a Savage fight, so why bother to improve.

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No, I said that you had enough to not be harassed. That's a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Now I have to ask if you have any evidence at all to support your claims that parsers lead to the behavior you are claiming they will.

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No, I haven't. But I didn't even said that. Jerks are jerks. Giving them a parser just give them the right to be jerks, considering how little is done when an in-game system is blatanly abused. And for that, my evidence is the votekick system.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

NNo, I haven't. But I didn't even said that. Jerks are jerks. Giving them a parser just give them the right to be jerks, considering how little is done when an in-game system is blatanly abused. And for that, my evidence in the votekick system.

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False. Jerks will be jerks regardless of if they have access to a parser or not. With regards to this supposed "votekick abuse" you keep talking about, if any actions are taken against those who abuse the votekick system, there would be no way for you to know about said actions taken unless they came forward and said they were gaoled/suspended/banned for it. So how can you accurately say that nothing is being done about it?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, I haven't. But I didn't even said that. Jerks are jerks. Giving them a parser just give them the right to be jerks, considering how little is done when an in-game system is blatanly abused. And for that, my evidence is the votekick system.

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I'm going to set aside the fact that two sentences after saying that you never claimed there'd be a behavioral shift, you say that parsers will cause a behavioral shift. EDIT: To clarify, if there is no behavioral shift from giving players parsers, then there is no problem.

Giving a parser to the playerbase does not legitimize griefing. If anything, anyone who thinks that and acts accordingly will get hit hard by mods because now all the evidence of griefing will be in the player logs. HyoMin also makes a point that you do not and can not know about actions taken against votekick abuse.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I didn't need a parser or someone calling me out to know that. I just needed the desire to improve myself and knowledge from some DRG guide.

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Improvement without the proper tools and feedback is like trying to navigate without a map. You can eventually get to where you're headed, but it'll probably take a lot longer. One of the reasons people find it so hard to transition to more difficult content in this game is that the normal content they're doing doesn't provide enough feedback for their mistakes (i.e. death). There won't be any impetus to improve unless you know something is wrong, which you won't without a parse.

At this point I've given up since the devs have shown themselves to be completely aligned against stuff that offers technical feedback (crit numbers, det effects, etc) or adds incentives to raid (i.e. loot) so I don't expect them to suddenly flip on parsing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So how can you accurately say that nothing is being done about it?

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I made reports with log copies and got personally answered that the evidence I provided was not valid because people are free to not have the same expectations as me and so my kick was not abusive.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Improvement without the proper tools and feedback is like trying to navigate without a map.

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No, improvement without a parser is like navigating without a GPS. And it can be done, it's called looking at a map, analyzing your journey before being in the car and paying attention to the road. And this attention issue is exactly the same when people use third party tools. I don't need a parser to tell me that I should have used Carve&Spit more.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

One of the reasons people find it so hard to transition to more difficult content in this game is that the normal content they're doing doesn't provide enough feedback for their mistakes (i.e. death).

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The main reason is that, apart from really difficult content, everything else is facerolling easy. There's no difficulty curve to make players improve little by little. And SE only aggravates this by nerfing content more and more. The problem is that, the easier you make the content, the easier you future content will have to be. It's a wonder that the last fight of the MSQ is on the "hard" part of the spectrum, but I doubt it will really stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I made reports with log copies and got personally answered that the evidence I provided was not valid because people are free to not have the same expectations as me and so my kick was not abusive.

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If you were kicked for "differences in playstyles," that is a valid reason for a votekick. Hence, not votekick abuse. Majority rules in votekicks. If you weren't playing to the expectations of at least half of the party, they are allowed to kick you. It's another story if the other party members were together and conspired against you to vote kick you for a reason such as to bring in one of their friends, but that can only be proven via their chat logs, which you would not have access to. If you were kicked because people were perceiving you as being a burden to the party, that's not votekick abuse.

And if you weren't kicked, but someone else was, then the person who was kicked needs to make the report, otherwise the GM's won't do anything (because you're not the victim)... unless there's evidence of third party use in the party chat (and GM's will not tell you if they have or have not given the culprit a slap on the wrist or worse, depending on which step they're on).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, improvement without a parser is like navigating without a GPS. And it can be done, it's called looking at a map, analyzing your journey before being in the car and paying attention to the road. And this attention issue is exactly the same when people use third party tools. I don't need a parser to tell me that I should have used Carve&Spit more.

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You're making a distinction without a difference. In both cases acting without the tool is possible, it's just less efficient.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I didn't need a parser or someone calling me out to know that. I just needed the desire to improve myself and knowledge from some DRG guide.

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Right. And how do you think those guides figured it out? The people making them parse log for hours trying to determine the precise rotation. Why not readily provide everyone with that potential information instead of PC players?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Having parsing built in to the game will not stop players from being bad, nor will it stop them from trying to do content that demands far more skill than they have. I spent enough time in WoW to know this. Everyone and their mother has a dps meter in that game and you still constantly find bad players.

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It isn't about eliminating bad players, but simply lessening the number. For every handful of players who don't care, you'll find at least one or two who genuinely didn't realize their poor performance and seek improvement.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Right. And how do you think those guides figured it out? The people making them parse log for hours trying to determine the precise rotation. Why not readily provide everyone with that potential information instead of PC players?

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He cant prove if and if he can, I would like to group in a dungeon with him and where he tells me which dps does the highest dps through out the dungeon without tool.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The main reason is that, apart from really difficult content, everything else is facerolling easy.

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You're just rewording what I said. The game doesn't give you feedback (in easy content). Also known as criticism, punishment, penalty, or, in games, death. If you don't get penalized you don't know that what you're doing is incorrect, so you just keep on messing up that whatever. Here's an example: in the Phoenix fight, there's a debuff that you have to pass while he's casting a certain action. There's two variants of the debuff - green and purple (I think, it's been a while). At the time my group couldn't figure out the difference between the two, so we just said screw it and played them both the same way. As it turns out, one of them is split damage or something, but it doesn't actually hit hard enough for you to figure that out.

On this raid tier, Twin Bolt is survivable solo if you have strong enough mitigation available. If it wasn't called Twin Bolt, and it didn't have the tether line, you might just figure that you need to use Sentinel or Vengeance on it, because it doesn't come around that often and doesn't kill you when you do that. No penalty = no "what am I doing wrong?" = no progress

If you can't see your low DPS you'll have a harder time knowing whether or not what you're doing is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It isn't about eliminating bad players, but simply lessening the number. For every handful of players who don't care, you'll find at least one or two who genuinely didn't realize their poor performance and seek improvement.

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While this is true, parsing built into the game will not make a noticeable positive difference in player ability among the general population. I actually found more bad players in WoW than I did in FF and I'm not talking about poor parse results. I mean things like pulling when they're not the tank, eating avoidable damage, knowingly ignoring tactics which then results in a wipe, etc. A lot of the time these things happen because players are more interested in parsing well than doing combat properly.

And no this behaviour is not restricted to pugs. I constantly saw it happen throughout my years raiding. I don't even want to begin to count the amount of wipes I have had to endure because some dps were intentionally hitting the wrong target as it made their place in the dps meter very high.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, improvement without a parser is like navigating without a GPS. And it can be done, it's called looking at a map, analyzing your journey before being in the car and paying attention to the road.

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Imagine yourself in a group doing OS3. Each party member has beaten the fight's dummy, healers are doing at least some DPS, there are no deaths, but the group keeps hitting enrage. How would you "navigate" the situation without a parser?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Imagine yourself in a group doing OS3. Each party member has beaten the fight's dummy, healers are doing at least some DPS, there are no deaths, but the group keeps hitting enrage. How would you "navigate" the situation without a parser?

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"Everyone, this was a good match, let's try our best next time! I'm sure we can do it!"

-cough-

That's the most common one ^
p.s. I don't hate this "general mindset", but in Savage content it will not help people to clear a specific fight.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Imagine yourself in a group doing OS3. Each party member has beaten the fight's dummy, healers are doing at least some DPS, there are no deaths, but the group keeps hitting enrage. How would you "navigate" the situation without a parser?

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By learning the dance. Every fight has a dance. You move in certain ways depending on placement of telegraphs and other mechanics, and you time your cds so they have maximum uptime instead of using them just before the boss disappears. The more familiar you are with the mechanics of a fight, the better your dps and hps become. A parser doesn't tell you how to dodge things or when the boss disappears. Experience does.

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

"Everyone, this was a good match, let's try our best next time! I'm sure we can do it!"

-cough-

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*After 30 enrage wipes* "Let's replace the MCH! (Who was actually doing the highest DPS in the group, but they wouldn't know that would they...)

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Originally Posted by Taika

MCH! (Who was actually doing the highest DPS in the group, but they wouldn't know that would they...)

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This is hilarious, but true.
Because i'm that MCH.

I've noticed that "parse hate" only comes from people, who actually not doing any Savage content and thus -> don't need this tool, which is normal.
p.s. Again, parsing is only "needed" in hard Savage content.

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

I've noticed that "parse hate" only comes from people, who actually not doing any Savage content and thus -> don't need this tool, which is normal.

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No my parse hate comes from my time in WoW in which parsing was often used as a platform to be needlessly horrible to other people, and I have had to endure countless wipes (with randoms and with guilds) because dps were intentionally hitting the wrong target as it made them look better on meters.

I don't deny parsing is a useful tool. However like any tool it can be abused to some degree, and the potential abuse with parsing is very high. Many players use the mentor tag to appear pro even though many don't play properly, and the same thing happens with parsing.

The unfortunate truth is an enormous amount of players don't know the difference between good dps, and having dps on the correct targets. They look at a meter and assume whoever is on top must be the best.

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

This is hilarious, but true.
Because i'm that MCH.

I've noticed that "parse hate" only comes from people, who actually not doing any Savage content and thus -> don't need this tool, which is normal.
p.s. Again, parsing is only "needed" in hard Savage content.

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miunih evans on mogtalk expressed a distaste for both parse and fflogs yet he cleared savage week one so?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No my parse hate comes from my time in WoW in which parsing was often used as a platform to be needlessly horrible to other people, and I have had to endure countless wipes (with randoms and with guilds) because dps were intentionally hitting the wrong target as it made them look better on meters.

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This isn't WoW though. Your experience in FFXIV could be entirely different. You don't really know that it would be the same as WoW. Most people here don't even advertise that they are parsing unless they're with friends or people they know. And even the few that announce to strangers that they are parsing rarely use it as a tool to harass and abuse. I have met one person that ever used a parser to abuse someone in my nearly two years playing FFXIV. My experience with them is very much on the down-low. Because so many people are so quick to jump the gun about how "parsing is bad!!!" and report people that so much as mention ACT or FFLogs, even if that person isn't actually parsing. That's the sad thing about it, and how does that make the people "parser-shaming" any better than the very few that use it to harass?

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I don't deny parsing is a useful tool. However like any tool it can be abused to some degree, and the potential abuse with parsing is very high. Many players use the mentor tag to appear pro even though many don't play properly, and the same thing happens with parsing.

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And, as you stated yourself, abuse can occur with or without a parser. No one can provide concrete evidence that abuse and harassment would increase if SE implemented a universal, in-game parser or DPS meter. And you shouldn't blame the tool just because people use it in the incorrect or in an abuse way. That is not the fault of the tool itself, nor does it make the tool a "bad" thing.

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The unfortunate truth is an enormous amount of players don't know the difference between good dps, and having dps on the correct targets. They look at a meter and assume whoever is on top must be the best.

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Not sure if you're talking about FFXIV or WoW, but ACT doesn't offer different "meters" based on which target one is hitting. It just counts your DPS as a whole, all targets included. The only time it resets is after a certain period of time passes before a new encounter is started. It won't show different DPS for, say, Halicarnassus and the adds in her fight. The DPS total shown includes her and all the adds. I don't know how WoW parsing worked, but that's how FFXIV and ACT parsing works. So that argument doesn't really have a leg to stand on with regards to FFXIV.


With regards to your comment on the top of the page, learning the dance of the fight is certainly something that helps clear it, but people can know the dance, and still not be maximizing their damage. How do they know if they are or not (aside from enrage)? This game doesn't give one any indication that the rotation they're performing is the "best it can be" or if there is more they can do to optimize it. People have said previously in this thread to just "use a guide." But the thing is...the guides that people use to optimize their rotations and DPS are formed based off of hours and hours of repeated parsing and dummy beating to get the best and squeeze out the most from each job, their rotation, and their potential damage. It's the same way stat weights are calculated as well.

Having quantifiable data helps show if you really are doing the best you can do, or if you're just skating by like an Average Joe. I'm not saying that people who don't parse are just going to be bad. That's not always the case. Some people who never parse do very well. Seeing quantifiable, numerical data on one's damage and rotation, however, is still an extremely invaluable tool. Especially if people are looking to do the very best that they can do.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No my parse hate comes from my time in WoW in which parsing was often used as a platform to be needlessly horrible to other people, and I have had to endure countless wipes (with randoms and with guilds) because dps were intentionally hitting the wrong target as it made them look better on meters.

I don't deny parsing is a useful tool. However like any tool it can be abused to some degree, and the potential abuse with parsing is very high. Many players use the mentor tag to appear pro even though many don't play properly, and the same thing happens with parsing.

The unfortunate truth is an enormous amount of players don't know the difference between good dps, and having dps on the correct targets. They look at a meter and assume whoever is on top must be the best.

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My experience in WoW differs greatly from yours. I've never seen anyone berated for low DPS in my over 12 years of playing it; if anything, instance runs are quiet, and ironically outside of Mythic and LFR (which is a cesspool of a different sort), DPS hasn't been an issue that's talked about. These days especially, people that post meters to boast are often given little attention, since people just want to get in and get out ASAP. I only really noticed a downturn when LFD was introduced and any sense of server community started to disappear.

And being real here, a meter isn't going to make the difference in focusing down targets. If they were tunneling and padding with a parser, they were going to do tunnel anyway. That also applies to assholes, who will be assholes regardless.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This isn't WoW though. Your experience in FFXIV could be entirely different. You don't really know that it would be the same as WoW.

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If there's anything I learned from gaming for most of my life is that players are players. The game changes but the players stay the same.

There will always be noobs, exceptionally skilled players, average players, lazy players, those who only play FOTM classes and switch the second it gets a nerf, players who pose with a rare title or mount that show off the content they did, players who aren't very good but preach as if they're god's gift to gaming, players who are excellent but never feel the need to highlight it...I could go on for ages like this.

I was around in WoW before damage meters were commonly used and I can tell you the community changed significantly when parsing became common. I do not want to see the same thing happen in FF.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not sure if you're talking about FFXIV or WoW, but ACT doesn't offer different "meters" based on which target one is hitting. It just counts your DPS as a whole, all targets included. The only time it resets is after a certain period of time passes before a new encounter is started. It won't show different DPS for, say, Halicarnassus and the adds in her fight. The DPS total shown includes her and all the adds. I don't know how WoW parsing worked, but that's how FFXIV and ACT parsing works. So that argument doesn't really have a leg to stand on with regards to FFXIV.

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ACT is not a very good parser in my opinion but as far as I know some of its limited use is related to the lack of information displayed in the combat log. However if parsing became approved by SE the demand for a much more advanced one would arise as more people would see how little information ACT gives, and would deem it as an unacceptable way to grade players. Because it can't do, as you say, something as basic as showing damage done to separate entities.

WoW parsing is incredibly detailed but a lot of that is because Blizzard allow players to access every shred of combat data that happens. However this doesn't mean most players dig through it to get the real story. Most just look at the dps/hps rankings and assume whoever is on top is the best. And similarly many assume that being at the bottom means you're terrible, and don't consider things like gear or being new to the fight.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you were kicked for "differences in playstyles," that is a valid reason for a votekick.

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That last time, I was kicked for being in Sword Oath...while off tanking Scylla...

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Originally Posted by Taika

Imagine yourself in a group doing OS3. Each party member has beaten the fight's dummy, healers are doing at least some DPS, there are no deaths, but the group keeps hitting enrage. How would you "navigate" the situation without a parser?

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Last time I had to do something like this, I focused target one the DPS jobI known enough to analyze, and see low uptime on some buffs. Or give enough attention to detect flaws in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

I've noticed that "parse hate" only comes from people, who actually not doing any Savage content and thus -> don't need this tool, which is normal.

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I already hated it back in Coil and for the few times I tried Alexander Savage. But I guess every thread need some kind of "You don't run current Savage, so your criticism on the mentality is irrelevant"...

Parsers greatly help players, everyone who is worth their salt when it comes to performance either uses a parser or has others parse them.
If you don't know your numbers you don't know whether you really improved or if the new rotation you're trying out makes a difference.
Sure we have SSS dummies now, but that alone doesnt cut it. You wanna see the numbers where it counts in the actual content.

The only excuse to be anti-parser would be playing the game laid back without any care about your own performance or straight out not wanting to bring anything to the table.
Even in normal dungeons, I'm just dumbfound by the amout of DPS who barely do half the damage as the healer.... It's not the gear either.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

miunih evans on mogtalk expressed a distaste for both parse and fflogs yet he cleared savage week one so?

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Actually, this dislike was towards FFlogs not ACT. The former is where everyone uploads their numbers and measures e-peen/boobs whereas the parse itself just helps the individual player.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

The only excuse to be anti-parser would be playing the game laid back without any care about your own performance or straight out not wanting to bring anything to the table.

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Or it stems from watching decent communities commence ripping themselves apart and devolving into epeen competitions where if you cannot do everything like world first raiders then "you are a piece of shit blight on the community that should just uninstall the game and you wont be allowed into any content." "Oh also that gear piece that just dropped is an upgrade for me so give it to me since you are a piece of shit blight on the community who is going to uninstall the game because I told you to or I will report you for trolling."

Which has been basically every single MMO where parsing became common. I cannot for the life of me think of a single community where parsing actually made things better, and only made things worse for everyone not a top 10% hardest difficulty raider.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, this dislike was towards FFlogs not ACT. The former is where everyone uploads their numbers and measures e-peen/boobs whereas the parse itself just helps the individual player.

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Yup FFLOGS can be a good thing as you can see see how well you perform compared to others, but the patted parses are not really helping and are actually are the bane of the parser community.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Or it stems from watching decent communities commence ripping themselves apart and devolving into epeen competitions where if you cannot do everything like world first raiders then "you are a piece of shit blight on the community that should just uninstall the game and you wont be allowed into any content." "Oh also that gear piece that just dropped is an upgrade for me so give it to me since you are a piece of shit blight on the community who is going to uninstall the game because I told you to or I will report you for trolling."

Which has been basically every single MMO where parsing became common. I cannot for the life of me think of a single community where parsing actually made things better, and only made things worse for everyone not a top 10% hardest difficulty raider.

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Well those are just jerks, you have them without parses too. I avoid those people too because I think they are an embarrassment.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Well those are just jerks, you have them without parses too. I avoid those people too because I think they are an embarrassment.

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They also multiply and become 10x more active when they have validation and "proof" they can throw around showing them as "right" in everything they say. Which parsers become that "proof" they will throw around. And the more common the parsers are the more support they get from other people who will nod and agree with them, if only to get them to shut up because they do not think that the company will ever get around to actually banning those people. Especially when they know they are in a system where they will likely never meet that person again... such as cross-realm/cross-world/cross-data center style systems such as duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, this dislike was towards FFlogs not ACT. The former is where everyone uploads their numbers and measures e-peen/boobs whereas the parse itself just helps the individual player.

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Or upload someone else's numbers. Apparently someone uploaded my numbers onto FFlogs for Susano EX some many weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Well those are just jerks, you have them without parses too. I avoid those people too because I think they are an embarrassment.

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Sorry, but with that sentence :

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Originally Posted by Atreides

The only excuse to be anti-parser would be playing the game laid back without any care about your own performance or straight out not wanting to bring anything to the table.

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you're part of the problem, even if you're not outright kicking people all day long.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I already hated it back in Coil and for the few times I tried Alexander Savage. But I guess every thread need some kind of "You don't run current Savage, so your criticism on the mentality is irrelevant"...

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You do not do content that requires a parser. Why are you against people who do raid content that believe an official parser would benefit their group?

Perhaps only give an official parser for Savage raid content. Other content can be easily face-rolled on the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That last time, I was kicked for being in Sword Oath...while off tanking Scylla...

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And was that the only reason for the kick? Was such stated as the only reason for a kick? You aren't providing enough information to prove whether the kick was called for or not, and, really and truly, your kick from a Crystal Tower party has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is about parsers. Unless a parser was involved in your votekick, it doesn't really add anything to this discussion. I know you were trying to use votekick abuse as a viable comparison to how the developers and GMs supposedly do nothing to individuals who are reported, but that's not the case, and you can't really prove it to be the case.

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But I guess every thread need some kind of "You don't run current Savage, so your criticism on the mentality is irrelevant"

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Except the only content where parsers are actually relevant/needed IS current-tier Ex primals and Savage. If you aren't participating in either of those, then why should it bother you if people have the tools in those types of content or not?

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Or it stems from watching decent communities commence ripping themselves apart and devolving into epeen competitions where if you cannot do everything like world first raiders then "you are a piece of shit blight on the community that should just uninstall the game and you wont be allowed into any content." "Oh also that gear piece that just dropped is an upgrade for me so give it to me since you are a piece of shit blight on the community who is going to uninstall the game because I told you to or I will report you for trolling."

Which has been basically every single MMO where parsing became common. I cannot for the life of me think of a single community where parsing actually made things better, and only made things worse for everyone not a top 10% hardest difficulty raider.

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While my MMO experience is pretty limited to just FFXIV, as it's the only one I have played for an extended amount of time, I have never encountered this type of attitude in any of the content I've done, and I've done just about everything, even if it wasn't necessarily during the content's relative patch.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

With regards to your comment on the top of the page, learning the dance of the fight is certainly something that helps clear it, but people can know the dance, and still not be maximizing their damage. How do they know if they are or not (aside from enrage)? This game doesn't give one any indication that the rotation they're performing is the "best it can be" or if there is more they can do to optimize it. People have said previously in this thread to just "use a guide." But the thing is...the guides that people use to optimize their rotations and DPS are formed based off of hours and hours of repeated parsing and dummy beating to get the best and squeeze out the most from each job, their rotation, and their potential damage. It's the same way stat weights are calculated as well.

Having quantifiable data helps show if you really are doing the best you can do, or if you're just skating by like an Average Joe. I'm not saying that people who don't parse are just going to be bad. That's not always the case. Some people who never parse do very well. Seeing quantifiable, numerical data on one's damage and rotation, however, is still an extremely invaluable tool. Especially if people are looking to do the very best that they can do.

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This is a great point, bolded the most important parts for emphasis. If you know your rotation (can kill the dummy for a fight), know the fight and perform all the mechanics correctly, you can still do insufficient damage. In a fight with 7 other people, meeting the enrage, there's no way for you to know if it's you, someone else, or several other people who aren't performing well enough, and how far you are from the numbers you should be doing. You can ask everyone to keep pushing harder (although they already think they're doing all they can), and keep hitting your head against the enrage wall. You can try to make changes in your rotation, but again, with 7 other people, you don't know if those changes are making you succeed better or worse. You can try if changing your rotation helps you to kill the dummy faster, but that same change might actually make you do worse in the actual fight because of boss behaviour and mechanics. Information is power, and there's no way to have verified data of your and your group's performance without a parser.

I also support an official parser because of information transparency: I have witnessed people blaming others for low DPS, and even managed to kick others, when the kicked player was actually doing better than the person doing the kicking. Having an official parser would prevent those situations from happening.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, this dislike was towards FFlogs not ACT. The former is where everyone uploads their numbers and measures e-peen/boobs whereas the parse itself just helps the individual player.

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It was a general dislike, because the misuse can happen with both and he was criticizing the bad influence they both have on the community based on the reception of WHM, where he said that ppl should judge after trying out things and not before.
Point is that that it's not entirely true that only ppl who don't do savage dislike parsers