Indeed. Here is to the future!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!
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02-05-2013, 10:58 AMVelhart
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02-05-2013, 10:59 AMfusionalon any content that matters, this is categorically false- as evidenced by the video i posted. and before you even get started- i can assure you dragoon does far more damage than black mage on the fight. we thoroughly tested it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HojoDemon
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02-05-2013, 11:01 AMHyristYou heard me. There was flatly more HP to play around with on your average Warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Yes, paladins had the extra defense, but Nael still hit hard regardless and more than once the Paladins would dip into the red where a warrior would be orange/yellow from a similar attack.
Paladin's higher defence and self curing meant less work for the White Mage, but their HP seemed much more volitle in terms of risk.
Your mileage may vary, as you were in the top 5% of all players, but I was playing with pick-up groups.
There is a timer to concern yourself with as well. And while I know to lower my DPS to compensate for lacking in hate management (on my end or his) it also means I'm doing less and we're using up more than the timer. Now, if we go ahead and make the timer all is well and good. But I like having a wide margin for error.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireBud
To put it bluntly, if I had to cut power surge to keep my hate from out pacing the tank, there's a problem. That was a problem I had with Warriors. I can't recall a time I had that problem with Paladins.
In trade, I have seen a Warrior survive situations where a Paladin died in similar circumstances. I attribute this mainly due to the larger HP pool, not due to better defensive measures.
Which there it is. It's a matter of preference. I do believe both camps underestimate one another during this argument, and my hopes for SE is that they've created battles that involve both jobs. We've 8 party slots and 8 jobs. No reason why not to think up ways each job can contribute in a unique way each fight. It only gets tough to juggle once we start adding more.
I don't think each classes base capabilities need to be radically changed to achieve this, so much as performance tweaking (upwards) to make each class feel strong enough in the given circumstance, while still feeling challenged. Which isn't hard if they keep with the multi-objective based gameplay they've trended so far. -
02-05-2013, 11:04 AMDuelleRoster of tanks: PLD, WARQuote:
Originally Posted by indira
Roster of Healers: WHM
Roster of DPS: MNK, DRG, BLM
Outliers: BRD
Going by ratios, what we need most is another healing job. Could be Chemist (provided they use guns that shoot salve pellets for minor heals with larger concoctions that heal for more), could be Green Mage (HoTs, burst heals that consume said HoTs).
2 tanks: 3 DPS is actually pretty good. Could stand to add another DPS (SMN) and it would still not be lopsided. -
02-05-2013, 11:10 AMfusionalno, you're missing the logic and projecting onto me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
idiotic. if paladin is superior to warrior in ALL situations, and therefore preferable in ALL situations, in this scenario the community would just wait until they could find a paladin rather than running with a suboptimal tank. the shouts would demand paladin and warriors would be shunned. if you think any differently, you are completely naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
what did pugs bring to CC? blackmages. how often did you hear about pug monks being accepted? rarely, almost never. why? because blackmage was better than monk in nearly every situation in that dungeon. so it was never a "ehhh no blackmages available, grab the monk" it was "ehhhh wait for another blackmage, or force that guy to switch to blm"
you mean like how WAR and PLD play differently? oh. oh yeah. so here you underscore my point. different DPS thrive in different situations (monk for MM, dragoon for princess, blm for coincounter...) and different tanks do as well (aoe tanking vs. single target, fast hitting vs. slow hitting mob, heavy healing requirement vs. light healing requirement)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
go ahead and try to patronize me, though. it won't end well for you, kiddo. but let me just say that it's funny that you're taking the haughty UGH GOD Y I HAVE 2 EXPLAIN 2 U route when you're *contradicting yourself* in the first place. no, it's me that shouldn't need to explain this *to you*Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
i've already said what they're good for and i've provided evidence. disagree all you want, but you'd either be living in a fantasy land or a land of woefully outdated information/experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
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02-05-2013, 11:19 AMfusional
all i'm really getting from this thread is "fuck logic. paladin should be the alpha and omega of tanking because paladin is what I play/prefer"
oh, and one more thing-
that isn't a fact. in fact, warrior is pretty awful at DPS in every single situation except for one in which they can spam SC for aoe damage. and even then, they can very easily be outdamaged by other classes with aoe if those other classes are played well.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXHalloweenTrixXx
warrior's DPS is actually really, really bad comparatively. -
02-05-2013, 11:55 AMAbriaelCompared to a Paladin, no, it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Those that say that PLD and WAR should be equal in tanking capabilities completely forget the most basic idea of balance.
Paladin is a specialized job.
Warrior is a hybrid job.
A specialized job can only do one thing, and needs to be better than any hybrid job at doing that thing, or it will be undesirable (exactly like it was in 1.0).
Unless you nerf warrior's damage into oblivion, and to be precise to the same level of paladin (which simply wouldn't make sense, and would confuse people, with a class wielding a giant axe turning into one that hits like a pansy) their defensive abilities shouldn't in any way be comparable to those of a paladin, as balance dictates that the sum of two classes' abilities needs to be equal.
If a warrior can tank as well as a paladin, but deals more damage, warrior will almost always be preferred to paladin unless specific mechanics situationally push the other way (and that's not enough of a balancer) to anyone that cares about efficiency. If two classes have the same defense and one has better attack, you chose the latter, because it makes for a faster fight, and a faster fight means an easier fight.
Higher attack and better versaitility need to come with a tradeoff (everything needs to come as a tradeoff, Paladin's tradeoff for having the best defensive abilities comes at the price that their attack sucks), and the omly possible tradeoff is less defensive abilities.
It's really pretty simple. In a game in which there's only space for one main tank every eight people, having two main tank classes is excessive, and means that one of them will struggle at finding room.
Warrior's desirability can be preserved simply with coding encounters making dynamic offtanking a necessity.
Paladin should be the kings of main tanking in every situation.
Warriors should be the kings of off tanking, with good snap-aggro abilities and good (but not exceptional) defense, able to double up as a damager if there's the need for it, or as a situational main tank if there's no PLD available, with the tradeoff of more strain on the healers.
If encounters require dynamic off tanking, both classes have their roles, both classes are desirable.
If PLD and WAR have the same defensive abilities but differing offense, the one with the higher offense will generally be the most desirable, pushing the other out of the picture. That's an iron-clad equation and it's not acceptable in any MMORPG that holds class balance in any value. -
02-05-2013, 12:19 PMBumblebeeTunaThat is false. PLD was only required for hardmode darnus and ifrit extreme anything else a war tank was fine...i can atest to this fact as i tanked everything in the game on war from ifrit hard -> garuda -> 17min speed runs. SC nerf was hurtful to war but it didn't really make a difference. Also war are good at dps, a war in my LS topped the parse on ifrit extreme..just gotta know what youre doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
tank choice was really optional depending on the player barring the 2 fights that pld was just the much better choice. -
02-05-2013, 12:41 PMDuelleNot really, we just take into account the fact that niche gameplay sucks in the long run and it sucks even more when it involves roles like tanking and healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Shame on you for bringing the pure vs hybrid nonsense to this thread. Not to mention, as you have seen here some are asking for WAR to be either DPS or a tank.Quote:
Paladin is a specialized job.
Warrior is a hybrid job.
Why would anyone have to nerf WAR's damage into oblivion? If you can't wrap your head around the idea of WAR (a two-hander wielder) and PLD (a sword & board user) being tanks and performing equally to the point they're replaceable, I'll give you an example.Quote:
Unless you nerf warrior's damage into oblivion, and to be precise to the same level of paladin (which simply wouldn't make sense, and would confuse people, with a class wielding a giant axe turning into one that hits like a pansy) their defensive abilities shouldn't in any way be comparable to those of a paladin, as balance dictates that the sum of two classes' abilities needs to be equal.
This guy and this guy could both main tank a raid in WoW. Both were close to equal performance and were more than acceptable for the task. Both could even work together in encounters that required multiple tanks and one was not inferior to the other at the end of the day. One is a death knight wielding a two-handed sword/mace/axe, and the other one is a prot warrior wielding sword/mace/axe and shield.
So it can work, believe it or not. Adjustments on both ends will have to be made, but it's not as outlandish as some claim it is. -
02-05-2013, 12:49 PMAbriaelSorry to burst a bubble, butr "it sucks" doesn't a valid balance argument make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Can't be either a DPS or a tank. There are already enough pure DPS classes in the game, and you can't make a class with a giant axe without sizable DPS capabilities. Players shouldn't be required to read a class description before chosing, and a degree of identification between looks and role is necessary.Quote:
Shame on you for bringing the pure vs hybrid nonsense to this thread. Not to mention, as you have seen here some are asking for WAR to be either DPS or a tank.
"But it works in wow!" does not a valid balance argument make. WoW is a completely different game, with a completely different userbase and completely different mechanics and class balance synergies.Quote:
Why would anyone have to nerf WAR's damage into oblivion? If you can't wrap your head around the idea of WAR (a two-hander wielder) and PLD (a sword & board user) being tanks and performing equally to the point they're replaceable, I'll give you an example.
This guy and this guy could both main tank a raid in WoW. Both were close to equal performance and were more than acceptable for the task. Both could even work together in encounters that required multiple tanks and one was not inferior to the other at the end of the day. One is a death knight wielding a two-handed sword/mace/axe, and the other one is a prot warrior wielding sword/mace/axe and shield.
So it can work, believe it or not. Adjustments on both ends will have to be made, but it's not as outlandish as some claim it is.
If you can't make an actually functional argument based on FFXIV's mechanics, may as well bring none.
Everything in a balanced game needs to come at a price, to preserve balance.
Paladin pays for its defense abilities with it's inability to deal decent damage.
DPS classes pay for their high attack with their inability to tank.
What does warrior pay for it's defense abilities with again? And no, having to wear a silly horned helmet doesn't count. -
02-05-2013, 12:53 PMRadaghast
Breaking news, some jobs are more efficient in different situations. Welcome to a game where you'll have multiple jobs that offer different aspects to the same role. Enjoy your stay.
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02-05-2013, 12:58 PMVelhartI don't believe the issue is revolved around two different tanks taking on something. I believe it is the idea of WAR being a hybrid of DPS/tanking and PLD only tanking is the beef people are having.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
One side says: It isn't fair that WAR get to DPS/tank and PLD only gets to tank. This side believes that if you get to be hybrid, you have to be restricted compared to someone who is tank only.
Other side says: WAR shouldn't be gimped in tanking and SE should be left as is.
In all honesty though, with how different the new battle system is, it is hard to determine how this will work out. Dev's have clearly said that "roles" of jobs won't change, but their "concept" might. Warrior was directly pointed at when they mentioned it. They have also said how different Monk has changed. From being an elemental brawler to a DPS that focuses on chains that keep going faster and faster the more you go. It is a pretty significant change. So it leads myself to believe that both PLD and WAR will get some change in their concept. Perhaps one that meets a criteria that will satisfy both sides of the debate (Hah, yeah right).
Everyone here (myself guilty) keep dwelling too much into how 1.xx worked. We need to wait until beta to get a full understanding of how the battle system for the classes/jobs work, and then formulate criticism or perhaps bring the debate back up for topic and discussion. Like I said in a earlier post, I do believe the Dev team has found a good place for PLD, WAR, and all other jobs to make them feel like they are in the right place. If not...that is what shouting and complaining is for. -
02-05-2013, 01:00 PMAsael
I can't really say a whole lot on this issue given I was only able to get in about 7 months of play time before the servers shut down, but during that time paladin was my core role. Granted I don't think it's gimp but it could stand for some polishing in some areas so the "paladin" in the job can really shine.
In my experience one of the things that I thought the job lacked was hp. I always thought it to be quite odd to DECREASE the max hp the player has upon becoming a paladin. It's a tank, it's meant to have a deep hp pool in order to take greater amounts of damage than other jobs for longer periods of time. It can indeed do this, but it still feels like it comes up a little short.
Second, defense is decent given all of the abilities that are available to PLD, but it's still lacking. Even in decent gear like the AF set I would sometimes find myself taking mass amounts of damage I felt were a little over the top for what a PLD should be capable of mitigating. Especially when I have things like rampart, sentinel, and protect up, and still take damage into the upper hundreds and even 1000 or 2000+.
Finally, the one area I felt PLD was sorely lacking in was its ability to keep hate. When you're in a pt that consists of you, a WHM, and 6 DDs it becomes insanely difficult to stay at the top of an enemy's hate list. Particularly when you have WARs spamming steel derpclone every half second and BLMs hitting the mob with every spell in the book. I understand that has more to do with the tactics of the team, but most of the time it's ultra-difficult to make your party understand how enmity works and that they need to back off every now and then so the tank can re-establish hate priority. But for me that's one of the things that PLD is supposed to be about, it’s a hate generator for the soul purpose of tethering/anchoring mobs so the DDs can deal damage with little to no concern. The very fact that after a few seconds of DD spam I can completely lose hate is a serious flaw in one of the job’s core functions. The whole purpose for having a high defense and large hp pool becomes pointless if you cannot keep hate directed at the tank for more than ten seconds.
Long story short, I have a very generic idea on what a PLD is supposed to be and the role it is meant to play in the team. 1. Abundant health for durability, 2. high defense, 3. mild dps, and 4. unmatched enmity generation. I know that there are other PLDs who experienced the job differently, but that’s just my take on it. -
02-05-2013, 01:10 PMDuelleHow about "severely limits the options of people wanting to play a certain role"? Or "severely gives way to pigeonholing, which as a whole hurts the community more than help"? Or "makes putting groups together even more difficult than it normally is because the lesser class for a role may be available but you want the prime class for the role instead"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
You're not making much of an argument for yourself, because the reasons niche gameplay hurts the game are pretty damn obvious to anyone that has been around for the last 10 years or so. Hell, even FFXI had issues with party dynamics because of it. And no, "you can just switch jobs" is not the fix, nor the solution, nor the answer.
2:1:3. Tank : healer : DPS (bard is an outlier and therefore doesn't count). The ratio is still actually pretty good, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Call me when we hit 2:1:18.Quote:
Can't be either a DPS or a tank. There are already enough pure DPS classes in the game
And XIV just happens to be looking at it for inspiration, to the point Garuda and Nael were pretty much WoW bosses but with worse latency (Garuda is basically Hagara the Stormbinder meets Sapphiron, for one). Yoshida himself has said they're looking at WoW and other games from that generation (GW2 and TOR).Quote:
"But it works in wow!" does not a valid balance argument make. WoW is a completely different game, with a completely different userbase and completely different mechanics and class balance synergies.
Try to get a frame of reference instead of planting yourself on what seem to be ideas established from FFXI (which is a pretty horrible place to get class ideas from based on how WAR, RDM, NIN and SMN played out), and do make sure to not go into "LALALAICANTHEARYOU" mode the moment someone brings example of designs that make certain changes possible.
Past experience has shown what you want does not work. You get people going for the "ideal" class as per the community, and the other class is either set aside or used in another way that doesn't fit the intent of the design. This is why having a tank that is purposely inferior to another doesn't help. The key is balancing tanks against each other instead of balancing tanks to DPS and heals.
A roster of four tanks where the four perform equally yet have unique aesthetics, mechanics, procs and reactionary abilities wins because if you don't like tank A and like tank B you can still main tank content because they're interchangable. That alone is MILES ahead of having a master tank and a weaker tank that can (but won't) be used for handling adds or off-tanking, for one because you suddenly have a larger tank pool given the more options open to the players. This also applies to healers and has always applied to DPS. -
02-05-2013, 01:14 PMSwordCoheirI agree to an extent friend, but there were some various factors to take into account and it wasn't really till the last few months of 1.0 that PLD really stood out on it's own. I'm not saying there wasn't situations where PLD didn't shine, but until they adjusted SC, Rampage, Parry, and Collusion on WAR and gave PLD some boosts to Shields WAR had a distinct upper edge over PLD in 95% of most situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre
I do feel they were more on even ground by the end of 1.0, however they need to be mindful of the usefulness of Defense and not let the level difference utterly handicap it, and make sure Shields can hold their own in the end as well. After all Shields were supposed to give the defensive edge over WAR w/o buffs, but with shields being broken, half of PLD's abilities explicitly requiring shields, and with parry being turned off with shields equipped it really put PLD in a disadvantageous state defensively and offensively. -
02-05-2013, 01:46 PMShougunHybrids are a bitch :P lol, you cant make them better then their parent specializations but you dont want to make them suck either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
I suppose that is what made WoW's -sort of- hybridness work as there were talent trees and many items that where cross classes such that a warrior could tank end game just as a paladin just as a druid (and hybridism really was a choice then), of course even then there are preferences on which one does better in which scenario but I believe the difference was minimal compared to FFXIV's - late game even more so past TBC - or so I follow (Blizzard has really worked on that). (As well I was not as disappointed to have a Paladin, Warrior, or Druid in my party as I am to have a FFXIV Paladin in my non-dungeon party - and this I feel must be changed).
But as you said and I 100% agree that who the hell knows what is the truth now as the battle system is changed, and the classes/jobs are changed (some more then others). -
02-05-2013, 01:49 PMAbriaelOnly, it doesn't. You can still tank as a warrior. You just won't be the first choice, or you will be an off tank. Separating the tank and off tank roles brings diversity, not limitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Actually in quite a few MMORPGs separation between tank and offtank classes works perfectly, and hybrid tanks have a role without needing to be on par with pure tanks.Quote:
Past experience has shown what you want does not work.
of course you completely neglected to respond to the most important part of my post, because obviously you don't have an answer, so I'll repeat it for your convenience.
Quote:
Everything in a balanced game needs to come at a price, to preserve balance.
Paladin pays for its defense abilities with it's inability to deal decent damage.
DPS classes pay for their high attack with their inability to tank.
What does warrior pay for it's defense abilities with again? And no, having to wear a silly horned helmet doesn't count.
If Warrior pays no price for its defense ability (or an inferior price than Paladin does, for the same defense), then balance isn't preserved, and warrior becomes automatically more desirable than Paladin. It's elementary, and unavoidable. -
02-05-2013, 01:56 PMfusionalfirst of all, 2 white mages are *required* for this. the healing load is simply too heavy for one healer to carry. using paladin allows you to switch out one healer for another dps, which both helps with getting down nails and increases damage output on ifrit, shortening the fight and therefore lessening chances for things to go wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Almalexia
second, if you have any experience and/or understanding of the fight, you know that the main reason warrior is EXTREMELY UNRELIABLE as a tank for ifrit extreme is because if cracks pop under both healers it almost always results in a dead tank, as they cannot keep themselves alive long enough for *both* healers to run out and back.
third- notice FIVE WARRIORS. warrior single target dps is atrocious. as a result, if they ever pull hate through dps, the tank is awful. if they were stacking geared, skilled dragoons or even if they had a single BLM pushing dps to shorten the fight, the warrior would find it almost impossible to hold hate as without the ability to cure themselves and others their enmity generation is just too low.
finally- jumps. warrior doesn't have nearly as many enmity generating tools at their disposal so in addition to taking longer to reach the enmity ceiling, they can't ramp up as fast as paladin either. this is a critical weakness when it comes to the hate reset after jump. everyone else has to wait for the warrior to firmly establish aggro before doing anything, the chances of accidentally pulling aggro, getting hit by breath and putting sear on the raid skyrockets, etc etc. it's just messy.
you can call it a "stylistic decision" if you want, but that does the entire debate disservice because it absolutely isn't that simple. if people 'prefer' taking warrior to ifrit extreme, that's their choice- but it's essentially like saying you'd rather drink urine than water.
does warrior have the ability to tank ifrit extreme? yes, but they end up handicapping your entire effort. paladin suffers none of these setbacks, and as a result was preferred across the board by LSs who cared at all about winning. -
02-05-2013, 02:02 PMAndrienQuote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Your logic is flawed. You're suggesting that a job dedicated for tanking which suppose to have the best DEF overall, and survival abilities is considered as a second or as an equal option. That in my opinion is wrong. Your thoughts and ideas is misplaced.Quote:
idiotic. if paladin is superior to warrior in ALL situations, and therefore preferable in ALL situations, in this scenario the community would just wait until they could find a paladin rather than running with a suboptimal tank. the shouts would demand paladin and warriors would be shunned. if you think any differently, you are completely naive.
Somewhat relevant to the discussion. It was an unbalance design flaw made by the devs. Players simply abused it. You should know this...Quote:
what did pugs bring to CC? blackmages. how often did you hear about pug monks being accepted? rarely, almost never. why? because blackmage was better than monk in nearly every situation in that dungeon. so it was never a "ehhh no blackmages available, grab the monk" it was "ehhhh wait for another blackmage, or force that guy to switch to blm"
This is in an essence of what I'm talking about. War and PLD do play differently yes. One is a dedicated tank, the other a good back up tank and have the ability to dps. I said this already. However players will abuse this if there is a way to exploit if the design has flaws. which it does in 1.0Quote:
you mean like how WAR and PLD play differently? oh. oh yeah. so here you underscore my point. different DPS thrive in different situations (monk for MM, dragoon for princess, blm for coincounter...) and different tanks do as well (aoe tanking vs. single target, fast hitting vs. slow hitting mob, heavy healing requirement vs. light healing requirement)
If this is suppose to make me feel bad then you're delusional. You don't have a valid point.Quote:
go ahead and try to patronize me, though. it won't end well for you, kiddo. but let me just say that it's funny that you're taking the haughty UGH GOD Y I HAVE 2 EXPLAIN 2 U route when you're *contradicting yourself* in the first place. no, it's me that shouldn't need to explain this *to you*
Quote:
i've already said what they're good for and i've provided evidence. disagree all you want, but you'd either be living in a fantasy land or a land of woefully outdated information/experiences.
Listen closely "kiddo.." You might actually learn something if you pay attention. Now pay close attention.
Consider the following for outdated. Once upon a time in FFXI, when Ninja was molded into a tank by the community, a design flaw made by the devs. Ninja with the ability to DD, and tank without taking damage was the ideal choice for exp party, and not to mention blink tanking or kiting on HNMs. As a tank job dedicated for tanking PLD, it was seen as a black sheep. No exp invites etc. Where did that leave PLD? Even in Abyssea it was unwanted until Voidwatch showed up. One content where it was good at.
1.0 was riddle with that flaw for awhile, but was still there, very subtle.
That is all I have to say to you on this matter. If you still don't get it, then I'll tell you in advance that I'm afraid I've ran out of patience to elaborate any further. -
02-05-2013, 02:11 PMfusionali disagree on practically all accounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
first of all, there wasn't that much difference between PLD and WAR HP. if 3500-4000 paladin HP wasn't enough for your healers, then i don't know what to tell you. just keeping regen on the tank and throwing curagas on the melee is often enough to keep any tank topped off.
secondly, two words: plasma acoustics. this is the only truly dangerous part of the fight for a tank, and a good paladin should always be able to predict it and block it. any HP of the warrior is just a visual safety net. in practice it was irrelevant. once they get the defense down from acoustics, darnus still cuts through their HP like butter whether they're a PLD or a WAR
and relating to that: paladin had an "OH SH*T" button in the form of invincibility. warrior didn't.
so i don't really buy the argument that warrior was safer. not at all. -
02-05-2013, 02:18 PMLeo_HartFeatherfoot n foresight should able to block it if P.Acoustics is predicted.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
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02-05-2013, 02:26 PMfusionalwell then it's a good thing paladin has better enmity tools and self cures to make up for it, right???Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
the point is- people saying warrior has the option to DPS are kind of exaggerating, because warrior's DPS is so poor *compared to other DPS*
so if warrior's dps sucks compared to other dps, but is slightly higher than paladin (which has plenty of tools warrior lacks), what's the problem? it's like you guys just have SUCH A BONER for paladin (because you play it) that you think it should be god of everything.
and it was. if you disagree, you're biased/wrong or you're basing your information on people who are biased/wrong. so where are you going with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
paladin's single-target damage is actually pretty comparable to warrior's single target damage. any paladin who disagrees needs to improve their rotation. the only real edge warrior had was in aoe damage, and that also falls under the category of specialization- as warrior was intended to be the aoe tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
but it can'tQuote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
but that's its specialization in the context of tanking, and since it doesn't actually tank better than paladin the point is moot anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
like what? like poor snap-aggro, slower enmity generation, poor/limited self healing, inability to heal/protect others? does that sound like a tradeoff to you? because it sure sounds like one to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
and yet you do know that 24 man raids are coming, yes? which leads us to...Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
paladins ARE kings of main tanking in any situation that requires an actual tank. in any situation that *doesn't really need a tank*, warrior wins. the problem, once again, is that the game simply doesn't have enough content that's difficult enough to *require an actual tank*Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
if i want to get something done fast, and i know i won't be in any real danger- why would i bother with having a tank? why not just throw another monk at it? and that's what people do, and why warrior was largely preferred up until the paladin update and SC nerf.
and since 24 man raids are coming, you can almost be sure there will be plenty of encounters designed specifically with their aoe offtanking in mind- leaving the paladins to hold the big main baddies.
and that's exactly what they are. just because the community is slow to adapt and quick to base their preferences and opinions on outdated and wrong information, that doesn't make it reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
and if people would actually sift through this thread with open eyes, they'd see that is precisely the root of the problem.
people are ranting about pld vs. war based on information and/or experiences that are simply no longer accurate representations of the latest model of gameplay (before servers went down)
and they don't, so this point is moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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02-05-2013, 02:28 PMfusionalof course it's false. i wasn't stating an opinion, i was using a hypothetical situation to make a point. do people in this thread even read anything before they smash their fists on the keyboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by BumblebeeTuna
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02-05-2013, 02:29 PMDuelleI've seen those comments, but to me it's a pointless debate when WAR can't perform comparibly to other jobs in DPS outside of AoE spam (which got nerfed before the end of 1.0, if I recall). Not to mention WAR being hybrid goes against the whole point of their job system, which is role-centric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
WAR's hybridity was never on the table for me because if the job system is going to be roles, then I expect WAR to be put in one role or the other and go from there. 1.0 is basically hold-over content and that is something I feel some have never realized or gotten wind of.
This remains to be seen. I just get annoyed by people who go under the idea that having one master tank is a great idea. I know that mentality carried over from FFXI and older MMOs (Lineage II for a while ran the "Dark Avenger or go home" bit for tanks), and that modern MMOs have tried to squash it as best they could.Quote:
In all honesty though, with how different the new battle system is, it is hard to determine how this will work out. Dev's have clearly said that "roles" of jobs won't change, but their "concept" might. Warrior was directly pointed at when they mentioned it. They have also said how different Monk has changed. From being an elemental brawler to a DPS that focuses on chains that keep going faster and faster the more you go. It is a pretty significant change. So it leads myself to believe that both PLD and WAR will get some change in their concept. Perhaps one that meets a criteria that will satisfy both sides of the debate (Hah, yeah right).
I really wish they would release more info on the battle system. At least my worries might be put to rest if I knew what they were planning to do and how they're approaching roles per job. -
02-05-2013, 02:31 PMVelhartActually, every time I was in an Ifrit Extreme win, the tank was a WAR each time. Awesome healers were awesome. Awesome WAR was awesome. Its not to say your strategy doesn't work, but the warrior setup was quite legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Well, we have 2-3 weeks till we can get a feel for them ourselves. They won't be lv.50 though and won't be able to determine how they function end game till phase 3 at least. However, we can see if abilities up to 35(?) have shown any difference to the role of Gladiator and Marauder. Actually, hell if I know if they will even give out jobs themselves. It might just be classes for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I agree that there shouldn't be a "one job to rule them all" method, look at my debate(?) with Starlord. I just have a gut feeling that is not how it is going to be, but for all I know I could be wrong till I get more information. I feel like we are debating over the past, and then when the future becomes the present, we will look back at the thread and go "Wow, we were way off.", or "Rabble rabble rabble.", one of the two. -
02-05-2013, 02:31 PMfusional
quick show of hands:
how many people saying warrior does great dps (and/or that paladin single target dps is SO MUCH WORSE) have actually ever used a parser?
because...
neither are reliable. don't be a homer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Hart
fallacy of personal experience, and does *absolutely nothing* to address every single legitimate concern posted about warrior tanks in that fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
you guys are really doing my head in. -
02-05-2013, 02:35 PMDarkilluminaI gave up trying to respond after my second reply. Trying to tell these people the truth is a pointless endeavor and a waste of time. They will close their eyes and refuse to recognize the evidence in place before them. It's people like this that gave paladins a bad name in XI and created pointless dialogue between the two classes after April of 2012 in XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Also some of you people must be rolling with some shitty paladins if you are stating the things that you're stating. Paladin has superior damage mitigation, awesome debuffs through weaponskills, awesome buffs, = if not superior single target dps compared to warrior on end-game bosses and self-healing capabilities as well as a defense ignoring weaponskill in Spirits Within. What the fuck else do you want? If SE listened to you rubes nobody would play warrior. -
02-05-2013, 02:45 PMVelhartActually, most people from Hyperion I saw go into the instance used a WAR tank. There we PLD tank parties also, both were used, it wasn't just a personal experience. Also, each tank was different each run I won. Both PLD and WAR method work fine in Ifrit, i'm not sure where you are defending yourself here. Saying WAR is "unreliable" on Ifrit Extreme however seems kind of an ill statement, since there is a lot of proof just on YouTube itself that they are more than reliable. Rather the PLD or WAR method works better, really, if the big doofus is dead, does it matter what party setup was used?Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
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02-05-2013, 02:47 PMfusionalquoting THIS GUY on page 5 for emphasisQuote:
Originally Posted by Junpei
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02-05-2013, 03:43 PMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Swapping jobs mid way through is bad for hybrid and dungeon design, imo... (in the guys quote)
Though it would be good for player dungeon efficiency (not that I think that means its good). -
02-05-2013, 04:02 PMAltenaNah just delusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
I thoroughly enjoy reading about how all the PLD's in here don't know how to play their job. -
02-05-2013, 05:52 PMFantasiaI agree. I'm sure that a lot of the people who play WAR can also play PLD, and just prefer WAR. But I know from experience with people on my server that the majority of people who insist of tanking on WAR do so because PLD actually requires some level of skill... it makes the job more fun in my opinion, WAR tank is so boring to do and requires next to nothing other than spamming the same 2 or 3 moves over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altena
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02-05-2013, 07:15 PMRadaghast
About half the people decrying imbalance haven't even played most of the content, coincidence?
Jesus some haven't even beat the dungeons... -
02-05-2013, 07:54 PMAlmalexiaWAR tank was perfectly serviceable. The only "deficiency" I'll grant you was 2 WHM, which was required, but not as crippling as you make it sound. At 3:30 in the second video, Ifrit does 3x Eruption and displaces the WHMs each time. The tank is fine. You will find EX displaces both WHMs throughout the fight. The tank never dies. I suppose the secret is regen. Since EX uses WS on a strict timer, the WHM simply applies regen before they have to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Still, I see where you're coming from. You say PLD tank means more DPS means a faster kill means less room for error. But just as Regen counters displaced WHMs, dodging WS counters a longer fight. If you can consistently dodge WS, it doesn't matter if the fight takes 8 minutes or 18 minutes. There is no "redder hotter ember" for defeating EX quickly. Once you have enough damage to break the nails and defeat EX--which 5WAR and 1DRG evidently do--the only challenge is surviving long enough to do those things.
The WAR held hate, WHMs cured him and DDs killed EX. Then we did it again. And again. It wasn't some abstract, experimental, piss-drinking attempt at doing something unconventional. WAR tank just happened to work for us the first time and we stood by it.
I'm not doing the debate a disservice by pointing out things that actually, functionally, and reproducibly work. A credit to WAR doesn't discredit PLD.
And it wasn't an LS; it was random PUG shit. :( -
02-05-2013, 08:34 PMSakasaFeatherfoot and foresight are not 100% and because of how the named stats work even buffing the evasion or parry stat with materia wouldn't help when your faced with dodging this one move because the percentage is calculated to the nth degree so even skirting 95% is not great odds but since Darnus doesn't attack fast enough to keep the stance parry bonus up even getting to 90% is a sacrifice. But you can enduring march the armor debuff to give a little more leeway (At least you could in normal) but the odds of a perfect Acoustic debuff avoidance on a run as a war are so slim that it still comes down to luck. So a Esuna is going to be needed even in a perfect war run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Hart
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02-05-2013, 10:30 PMMolly_MillionsWelcome to the lodestone, where we cry about outdated info based on secondhand knowledge on a continual basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radaghast
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02-05-2013, 10:31 PMAmandaHuggenkissAlso freakout over rumors that have been proven false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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02-05-2013, 10:34 PMMolly_Millions...and over articles written by questionable journalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss
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02-05-2013, 11:02 PMAltenaAbout a game that hasn't even been released..Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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02-05-2013, 11:04 PMSorelQuote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
Correct on both accounts. Here is what we have officially from SE on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss
Now compare and contrast that July 2012 developer post with what is on the official FFXIV:ARR site right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
Quote:
The marauder is a combat specialist whose weapon of choice is the greataxe—a fearsome arm long associated with Eorzea's pirates. Their approach to battle is one of brute force, as they rely on pure strength and good steel to crush enemies and sunder weapons.
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Wielding greataxes and known as warriors, these men and women learn to harness their inner-beasts and translate that power to unbridled savagery on the battlefield.
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Making use of their skill with the shield, gladiators can also draw the attention and attacks of an enemy upon themselves, thereby protecting their comrades from harm.
These are not facts. These are just statements from SE ... but they are (for now) the best indication of what SE is planning on doing on this topic.Quote:
To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built.