Old content has become so easy that it is no longer fun

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

The difference is you cant just queue up into bit harder content easily, for everything non-savage and non-extreme thats easily possible, for something more challenging there is no option other than waiting in partyfinder or finding people else where. Even Unreal Trials are disabled still.
People are doing ultimate grps in partyfinder by now, so hard content is not that impossible to do with randoms. Just nobody uses raid finder because its exposure is very bad and it has too many options that prevents people from popping the duty because it doesnt match up. So its usuability is really niche.

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Second coil of bahamut turn 4 savage unsnyc solo on a healer. Have epic truck loads of fun failing phase 1...over and over.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

So is it easy or not?

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You already answered the question yourself.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I think that some content definitely could use a facelift or boost in boss stats for the sole purpose for at the very least allowing people to experiencing all the mechanics said boss even offers. I do however acknowledge that many things have changed since said encounters conceptions. From Accuracy (Non Damage Stats but something required) being replaced by Direct hit (Pure Damage Stat) to Spell Speed and Skills speed affecting DoT damage to the array of potency increases and better refined rotations and ability implementations that have come since. And theres also TP which is completely gone.

Some of it will be hard to balance well, since it was never developed with all these nuances in mind, but I do think at the very least HP should be increased for most dungeon bosses (including some MSQ ones), CT raid bosses, and I still support the big transition boss (trials) like Steps of Faith should be more than just a "glorified striking dummy"

Steps of Faith will forever be the worst rebalance this game ever suffered imo, but I also remember the hilarious amount of people complaining it was "too hard".

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CT was nerfed so higher Hp wont change the fights. The nerfs have to be reversed to see missing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

CT was nerfed so higher Hp wont change the fights. The nerfs have to be reversed to see missing mechanics.

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They need to tone down the ilvl sync, the min ilvl - max ilvl in CT is too wide of a gap.
CT's min ilvl is 70 while the max ilvl is more than double that amount.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You already answered the question yourself.

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For me it's fine. They could update ARR stuff but not need to change the difficulty level of philosophy for dungeons and normal raids or trials as a whole. If there would be harder dungeons it should be a separate mode, not a replacement.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

For me it's fine. They could update ARR stuff but not need to change the difficulty level of philosophy for dungeons and normal raids or trials as a whole. If there would be harder dungeons it should be a separate mode, not a replacement.

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Ok. But just to reiterate what you said earlier, a lot of the things you mentioned like "in-combat rez or gives you debuffs when hit by a mechanics and not always one-shotting you so the room for error is wide by design" are part of the "philosophy" of dungeons, normal raids, and trials. You also said "And even in newer content you are allowed to play "poorly." If you are in favor of adjusting these things that you think are contributing to the easiness of content, you pretty much are affecting the philosophy of dungeons, normal raids, and trials as a whole.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

They need to tone down the ilvl sync, the min ilvl - max ilvl in CT is too wide of a gap.
CT's min ilvl is 70 while the max ilvl is more than double that amount.

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Still need to revert the nerfs. Ilvl changes and hp increases will just create a dragged out version of the current fights.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

If you are in favor of adjusting these things.

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I'm not. How they are is fine with me. I just highlighted that the game has all those systems to enable casual gameplay. If there is so many systems then it's rather obvious they won't do 360 next patch or even next expansion.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

How they are is fine with me.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

They could update ARR stuff

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??? If you're proposing a fix like updating ARR stuff, then you're agreeing with this thread's premise that old content has become too easy.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

??? If you're proposing a fix like updating ARR stuff, then you're agreeing with this thread's premise that old content has become too easy.

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Not easy, outdated. If they replace old stack marker with current one the difficulty won't increase. If they make guildheist with modern mechanics and then make guildheists for current tiers as they are released then the difficulty won't change, more so people will train more often. If they redo CT series to have modern telegraphs etc then it won't get harder but maybe introduce players better to game mechanics and more end-game oriented instances.

There is no point for larboard and lateral aureole on Gaius ;)

And if the game learning curve gets so much improved that "lowest common denominator" thinks the content is to easy only then you can think on making it harder.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

And if the game learning curve gets so much improved that "lowest common denominator" thinks the content is to easy only then you can think on making it harder.

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So let me get this straight. You're saying the game appeals mostly to the lowest common denominator?

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

So let me get this straight. You're saying the game appeals mostly to the lowest common denominator?

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Yes.

* mentioned recovery mechanics
* mentioned policies
* logs/parses only personal and overall gray area
* sub just for patch/story as recognized/highlighted playstyle by Yoshi
* good tank can handle weak healer and vice versa preventing single points of failure in groups with singular representations (dungeons)
* popular perception and presentation of the game as casual friendly / especially when comparing to WoW.
* and likely more

And looking at it current popularity and my personal opinion it's pretty cool game. Even sproutbringer from WoW make a lot of people enjoy the game for what it is and not trying to make it "like WoW". Mythic wow first guilds went for savage and not even complained that old or leveling content is easy (and likely fall of many times in that easy content).

To make content harder and not kick most of their playerbase Blizzard had to make 4 raid difficulties and 4 dungeon difficulties with one being infinite. And when bad players and good players mixed for the first time during WoTLK party finder the good players were shocked how bad players can get and with time the level didn't really change while animosity, aggression, hostility between player groups have risen. Mythic world first locked themselves in their guilds, HC/Mythic prog guilds developed scoring systems to filter out bad players and bad players got LFR and lowest dungeon difficulties or world quests. Not everyone wanted or could "improve".

I'm not sure if you would accept a dungeon for your daily roulette suddenly taking 2h instead of 20 min just because you didn't got enough good people in the group to carry it. Day after day...

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Yes.

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Ok, just help me clarify your point of view. What player skill level, in your opinion, represents the "lowest common denominator" in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by sharknado

* popular perception and presentation of the game as casual friendly / especially when comparing to WoW.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

The game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of the boss mechanics to be the standard?

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Yes.

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Also, I don't understand your reasoning here. You're telling me that the game is presented as casual friendly, but when I ask you if the game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of the boss mechanics, you said "yes." How can a game be casual friendly if the game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of boss mechanics?

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Originally Posted by PangTong

See title. Lack of ilvl syncing and general power creep and tuning adjustments with expansions have rendered pretty much all content pre-Stormblood into a joke, and even Stormblood and Shadowbringers content has suffered a fair bit. I had hoped the stat squish might address this somewhat, but it's just as bad if not worse.

Dungeon packs die in 10 seconds and the bosses don't fare much better. Trial fights which are supposed to be epic story moments get deleted before you even get to see half their mechanics or hear half their music. There is no damage even if you fail mechanics, pretty much the only way to die is Doom or if you fall off the edge of the arena.

I dread signing up for any roulette besides Expert these days because probably 80% of the time I will be put into a piece of old content that was once fun but is now a dull chore because of poor scaling. At that point I have to wonder if I'm playing the game to enjoy myself or simply to farm currency.

It's not only a bad experience for veteran players, it's a poor representation of the game for new players. They have to play through hundreds of hours of content before seeing a fight that doesn't instantly fall over before it can do anything. If you don't already know what the mechanics do it's impossible to tell how they work because there's almost no penalty for failing them, and even if you somehow die the rest of the party will just clear without you. You can't learn anything about the game.

Min ilvl helps but is not perfect, and not an option for the vast majority of players. You cannot sign up for roulettes min ilvl and even if you could, few would do so without increased reward.

I don't think it's fair to say "just do Extreme/Savage then" either. The vast majority of content in the game is normal mode and there's no reason it shouldn't be fun. Everyone has reason to run that content, not just players who don't do Extreme/Savage. Trivial content isn't fun. If people want content to remain trivial so it's faster to farm, they may as well just implement a system where you wait some given amount of time and then have the rewards given to you automatically.

I humbly ask the devs to do something. Even just dialling up the enemy HP on old content by a bit would go a long way. Implementing ilvl scaling for old trials and normal raids would be nice too. If you're worried about people complaining about their duties taking longer, feel free to increase the rewards by an appropriate amount too.

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What do you expect? It's a WoW clone. We're lucky that we're forced to do older content to level up.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

How can a game be casual friendly if the game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of boss mechanics?

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Not everyone will want to learn things or improve and games won't reject them just because so they also have to be compatible with such players. New players that actually want to learn and improve will have to engage with game teaching systems and bit more dedicated one - with third party content. Content creators do a good job, while the game systems are dated and there is to much changes between initial and modern content plus a lot of checks (ilvl, job stone, job quests etc.) are very loose or none existent. So MSQ and related "popular" optional content will be either carry-compatible or easy enough for sprouts to handle it (but not easy to them, only for us).

If they want to teach people and pro-actively improve their skills they would start updating the part that is teaching and increase amount of harder content. They already mentioned they will change Westwind and Centri/Prae. If the chances will be limited to those instances due to how they aged badly then it's rater obvious they either don't care or don't see a problem with current old/initial content. They could even add simple things to limit edge cases - making job stone required > lvl 30 instances, require relative up-to-date with job quests and be more aggressive with required ilvl for leveling dungeons when someone tries to go with bad gear. If they don't really want to do that then either they see the current state as fine or they don't see it as anything important... and remember that there are people that don't want to or can't "learn" and games will want to keep them if it's not some extreme edge case. There always will be a group that just won't perform so why bother doing harder mandatory content? WoW had to add 4 difficulty levels for same instance to please as much people as possible. If FF14 will sit on one difficulty level then don't expect anything amazing.

They will also be talking about longer timeline for the game - if they will want to move the game in a different direction, like refreshing everything for modern player then very likely the game will be less faceroll but also better at teaching stuff.

Current content is easy for experienced players, it's not really that easy for very new and very casual players. As majority of content is single difficulty level the difficulty will stay at the level decided by that "lowest common denominator".

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Not everyone will want to learn things or improve

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And you want to cater to these people? Yikes. If they're not looking to learn or improve, why play the game at all at that point?

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Originally Posted by sharknado

New players that actually want to learn and improve will have to engage with game teaching systems and bit more dedicated one - with third party content.

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Or you know, just play the game normally. Most players don't need to watch a youtube video to learn old content. The old content is that easy.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

As majority of content is single difficulty level the difficulty will stay at the level decided by that "lowest common denominator".

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Do you know the definition of the "lowest common denominator?" It seems to me you're talking about the bottom of the bell curve, not the lowest common denominator.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Well, I'm glad you find it ridiculously easy and all that, but I don't, currently. Of all the things I've done on the way to HW, Crystal Tower raids are the places I've actually died several times.

Since it's an MSQ required raid, people in it will be often new, and/or doing it just to get through the MSQ. Making it harder may cause issues both for the group who just want to go on with their MSQ and now feel stuck in the most boring expansion of the game, and for the veterans like yourself who don't understand why some of us are dying in said ridiculously easy raid and screwing it up.

Coils, on the other hand, are not required, and I have heard they are a bit more difficult and nobody minds.

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But that's the thing, I'm not a veteran. I started playing mid-2019.

The reason you're dying and screwing up is because you're new to the game. You also might not be watching a guide or hearing about mechanics, so they take you by surprise (note: I do not think you should NEED to watch a guide to join a raid, just that obviously if you do you have an advantage). Maybe you're too focused on your rotation so you miss it when everyone runs to a safe spot; this is something that absolutely happened to me when I first did them.

How many of your deaths were to things like Curtain Call or Ancient Flare? Those are instadeath mechanics. Once you learn how to avoid them... that's it. You run to a thing, and then do nothing for a bit as the mechanic resolves. Syrcus is supposed to require a bit more coordination and respecting of mechanics, but you can ignore most of them now. "Now" meaning "since way before I joined".

You probably didn't realize how many times you completely missed something you were supposed to do, and just got healed up.

Also, you don't need to do Crystal Tower for MSQ until Shadowbringers. Not even 5.0, but 5.3. You're gonna complain about being "stuck" in the best-received expansion ever? Considered by some even as what makes FFXIV the best Final Fantasy?

You wouldn't be stuck, anyway. You'd be fine. You'd learn from your mistakes, you'd watch from the ground to figure out what was going on. Maybe it'd take more than 1 try. The majority of people in Syrcus aren't even new, so some confused people would just make it a bit more interesting. Right now, everyone is just asleep.

Coils are at a higher difficulty than other "normal mode" raids and are not part of roulette, so they're a completely different conversation.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

And you want to cater to these people? Yikes. If they're not looking to learn or improve, why play the game at all at that point?

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You nor I have nothing to say about whom this game caters to. It's the game owner decision and that's their decision as of now.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Or you know, just play the game normally. Most players don't need to watch a youtube video to learn old content. The old content is that easy.

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Most people don't watch anything. And even if there is no first-time doom mechanic they can fail due to low performance. And if the content is "that easy" then do some older instances with sprouts and with long timers and compare the clear time. Then if the content would be much higher if you would get a sprout group you would spend hours instead of minutes in a normal dungeon. As this isn't fun beginners and casuals would quit and tryhards like you would move out of random duty finder because you would not want them to "learn" on your expense so PF would be used and only "experienced" players would be allowed to join in.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

The reason you're dying and screwing up is because you're new to the game.

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If content is truly easy, me being new to the game would have been irrelevant. "It's easy if you have enough experience" means that it isn't easy. Dark Souls is also easy if you have 3k hours in it. The exaggeration does not do your argument favors, it just makes it very confusing to understand, and it's not clear if you're just out of touch with a chunk of the sort of people who play games or what.

By your own admission, it's boring to veteran players. And, yes, 3 years is sufficient for veteran status. A training raid should not be your definition of hard. And since this appears to be the first alliance raid series people get, yes, it's effectively a training raid.

The point is that if you make it more difficult, people like me will probably start causing total wipes, which will result in people very angry at new people / bad players / whatever.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

Also, you don't need to do Crystal Tower for MSQ until Shadowbringers. Not even 5.0, but 5.3. You're gonna complain about being "stuck" in the best-received expansion ever? Considered by some even as what makes FFXIV the best Final Fantasy?

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Crystal Tower is required for ARR progression right now. ARR is not where you want your playerbase to get stuck, given that a lot of us struggle to not fall asleep there, and the hook of the "great amazing story" is not yet present.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

But that's the thing, I'm not a veteran. I started playing mid-2019.

The reason you're dying and screwing up is because you're new to the game. You also might not be watching a guide or hearing about mechanics, so they take you by surprise (note: I do not think you should NEED to watch a guide to join a raid, just that obviously if you do you have an advantage). Maybe you're too focused on your rotation so you miss it when everyone runs to a safe spot; this is something that absolutely happened to me when I first did them.

How many of your deaths were to things like Curtain Call or Ancient Flare? Those are instadeath mechanics. Once you learn how to avoid them... that's it. You run to a thing, and then do nothing for a bit as the mechanic resolves. Syrcus is supposed to require a bit more coordination and respecting of mechanics, but you can ignore most of them now. "Now" meaning "since way before I joined".

You probably didn't realize how many times you completely missed something you were supposed to do, and just got healed up.

Also, you don't need to do Crystal Tower for MSQ until Shadowbringers. Not even 5.0, but 5.3. You're gonna complain about being "stuck" in the best-received expansion ever? Considered by some even as what makes FFXIV the best Final Fantasy?

You wouldn't be stuck, anyway. You'd be fine. You'd learn from your mistakes, you'd watch from the ground to figure out what was going on. Maybe it'd take more than 1 try. The majority of people in Syrcus aren't even new, so some confused people would just make it a bit more interesting. Right now, everyone is just asleep.

Coils are at a higher difficulty than other "normal mode" raids and are not part of roulette, so they're a completely different conversation.

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As veteran who started in 2015. CT had addtional mechanics at release but was nerfed later on. The current CT is post nerf the way the bosses are now, is how they were the first time ran it. Only difference they didnt die as fast.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

The exaggeration does not do your argument favors, it just makes it very confusing to understand, and it's not clear if you're just out of touch with a chunk of the sort of people who play games or what.

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I need to emphasize here that I'm very much a Casual here. I play a lot of games, but I am by no means a hardcore gamer. I am squarely in the "mediocre" box, and my performance when I started playing FFXIV was as impressive as you would expect (not very)(lol I was so confused in Labyrinth I died to Ancient Flare both times).

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

A training raid should not be your definition of hard. And since this appears to be the first alliance raid series people get, yes, it's effectively a training raid.

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You are ignoring what has been stated again and again, which is that nobody is asking for hard. Nobody is asking for difficulty. We are just tired of stuff releasing, being at an acceptable difficulty (which is: not very, but also you need to do mechanics, and you need to heal), and then later come back to it and find that everything has become much more trivial. Mechanics can be ignored or skipped and minimal healing needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

The point is that if you make it more difficult, people like me will probably start causing total wipes, which will result in people very angry at new people / bad players / whatever.

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No. If damage is increased, and you're not a healer, you don't need to worry about it. You'll have to do mechanics, which people can help with. You or even a few sprouts won't cause wipes on their own.

The only way you can singlehandedly wipe an entire alliance raid is if you are actively refusing to do your job; a tank who doesn't split or take adds even when asked. A healer who just does nothing.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Crystal Tower is required for ARR progression right now. ARR is not where you want your playerbase to get stuck, given that a lot of us struggle to not fall asleep there, and the hook of the "great amazing story" is not yet present.

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Oh, wow, I actually had no idea about that bit. I just knew that you couldn't progress in 5.3 if you hadn't finished it when it dropped.

I will say, though, I am absolutely certain that if we let Syrcus be a little harder at least, nobody would be trapped in ARR no matter what. Why? Because World of Darkness is more difficult than Syrcus.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

As veteran who started in 2015. CT had addtional mechanics at release but was nerfed later on. The current CT is post nerf the way the bosses are now, is how they were the first time ran it. Only difference they didnt die as fast.

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When was it nerfed? Was Glasya allowed to do his platform mechanic? Did Scylla actually kill people who didn't stand in puddles? Or was that gone by then also?

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

You are ignoring what has been stated again and again, which is that nobody is asking for hard. Nobody is asking for difficulty.

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Perhaps not yourself, but the OP and a few posters here imply content needs to be made more difficult to facilitate increased learning for players, via a higher chance of wiping when people do things wrong. So most of my "concern" is about that. Forcing people to wipe to learn in MSQ required early (ARR) activities.

Changing the stats to make the fights a bit longer to see more mechanics would be fine by me.

I think I start to object when all this "it's baby difficulty!" keeps being thrown around, it's good to keep some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

I will say, though, I am absolutely certain that if we let Syrcus be a little harder at least, nobody would be trapped in ARR no matter what. Why? Because World of Darkness is more difficult than Syrcus.

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I guess so. WoD kicked my ass the first time I walked in there. Lack of interrupts (in my defense, my class had no interrupts, lol) wiped our entire raid in the beginning. The eye was so confusing haha. Cool raid tho. After reviewing the wiki it became fairly straightforward in my head, and next time I think I died only once. Though I may be confusing Syrcus Tower with Labyrinth tbh. One of the raids seems to have a set of them "if you are on the wrong platform at the wrong time you die".

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Perhaps not yourself, but the OP and a few posters here imply content needs to be made more difficult to facilitate increased learning for players, via a higher chance of wiping when people do things wrong. So most of my "concern" is about that. Forcing people to wipe to learn in MSQ required early (ARR) activities.

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Honestly, one of my biggest issues going into Alliance Raids (I was in ARR, but before the requirement) is how unprepared for it I was. I got the idea of "it's like 3 full parties in a big dungeon" part pretty quick. But because almost nothing I did beforehand had real mechanics to speak of, I was confused the few times I was required to do something (standing on the pad, for one). Would I have magically known what to do every time if ARR was "harder"? Well, no. Plenty of new mechanics, and also this is before things like stack markers were made universal, so you still get people with the shadowy AOE markers in Xande's fight running away because why would you think it'd work differently from any other AOE? But I think I would have adapted much quicker if this was something the game had been building up to beforehand.

Also they need to edit and expand Hall of the Novice and make it mandatory please.

And if earlier things were harder, it could lead to sprouts also being ready for a harder Crystal Tower.

(I'm using "harder" here to mean comparatively.)

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Changing the stats to make the fights a bit longer to see more mechanics would be fine by me.

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They'd be slightly longer, and you wouldn't be able to "ignore" mechanics like you can right now, is what I'd want. By "not ignoring" I don't mean that you'd wipe the raid if a few people failed, I mean you couldn't do what people do now, which is most of the raid knowing the mechanics and not doing them anyway because hey why bother? I can't even blame them most of the time.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

I guess so. WoD kicked my ass the first time I walked in there. Lack of interrupts (in my defense, my class had no interrupts, lol) wiped our entire raid in the beginning. The eye was so confusing haha. Cool raid tho. After reviewing the wiki it became fairly straightforward in my head, and next time I think I died only once. Though I may be confusing Syrcus Tower with Labyrinth tbh. One of the raids seems to have a set of them "if you are on the wrong platform at the wrong time you die".

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Oh, yeah, Syrcus is the blue one where there are only two really important mechanics to know as DPS now: when Curtain Call is being cast, hide behind ice, and when Ancient Quaga is being cast, get on the floaty circles.

The no interrupts thing hurts because there's almost always at least 1 tank that does nothing, and sometimes it's incompetence but sometimes it's because they made it so interruptible casts glow but never added anything that teaches you that inside the game.

Haven't read all comments but when I was doing mentor roulettes I ran into a group that had queued up for thordan ex, so I joined them in voicechat and they were so excited to do it "synced" because they wanted the "real experience". I had to tell them that queueing up in DF to do it synced still meant they missed half the fight. And it was just a bit sad really. I remember clearing Thordan Ex when it was relevant. The tankbusters were crazy, the dps needed to take the dives far away during adds. There was coordination in the end with towers and moving away from eye as aoes filled the floor and killed you if you got a bit of damage on you.

I think also an issue with the way it is handled now is that new players basically get led through everything up until the last expansion without having to actually learn their job or mechanics since everything can more or less be facerolled.

Tbh I've played like 4 MMOs + Destiny at this point and I'm still going to be dazed and confused the first time I walk into a new raid, even if I see other people execute mechanics. That's just how my brain be, I'm not really ever going to quickly figure it out on the fly. I think that's true for a lot of people.

I wouldn't mind dungeons being tougher, though, but I'm not sure I can be an arbiter of that, since my idea of good dungeon design is WoW Classic, where you do careful pulls, count your stuns, interrupt, LOS, hamstring stragglers so they don't pull the whole dungeon, DISMISS YOUR PET BEFORE YOU JUMP, and 3 mobs may be a lot. :P Ultimately, it seems SE mostly know what they're doing in this balance here, as far as their resources allow.

But the elements that are UI stuff definitely belong in some sort of HoN or such. Stack markers? Buffs do what? Damage only lands while telegraph is present, but animation is executed after the telegraph is gone (damn this one took me a while lol)? Instant AoE is invisible? There's also non-telegraphed AoE because reasons (it's pretty, I guess)? I heard something about stun resistance (???)?

There's a lot of random stuff that seems... not very obvious. And that's why I feel strongly about not berating players. If someone is outright trolling, that's one thing. But people can miss things, and "should know by now" or "well I quickly figured it out, so everyone else should" is not how reality actually works.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

they made it so interruptible casts glow but never added anything that teaches you that inside the game.

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Fffff I legit thought you just had to, idk, memorize which casts/bosses are affected by stun and interrupts and which are not... I've been rolling my eyes on the "Interject has no effect!" message so much...

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Originally Posted by sharknado

You nor I have nothing to say about whom this game caters to. It's the game owner decision and that's their decision as of now.

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You literally just said "Not everyone will want to learn things or improve and games won't reject them." That's saying that the game finds it acceptable for someone to not learn or improve.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

As this isn't fun beginners and casuals would quit and tryhards like you would move out of random duty finder because you would not want them to "learn" on your expense so PF would be used and only "experienced" players would be allowed to join in.

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I never said any of that. Good job, man. Now you're just making false assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Cubsbane

I need to emphasize here that I'm very much a Casual here. I play a lot of games, but I am by no means a hardcore gamer. I am squarely in the "mediocre" box, and my performance when I started playing FFXIV was as impressive as you would expect (not very)(lol I was so confused in Labyrinth I died to Ancient Flare both times).


You are ignoring what has been stated again and again, which is that nobody is asking for hard. Nobody is asking for difficulty. We are just tired of stuff releasing, being at an acceptable difficulty (which is: not very, but also you need to do mechanics, and you need to heal), and then later come back to it and find that everything has become much more trivial. Mechanics can be ignored or skipped and minimal healing needs to be done.


No. If damage is increased, and you're not a healer, you don't need to worry about it. You'll have to do mechanics, which people can help with. You or even a few sprouts won't cause wipes on their own.

The only way you can singlehandedly wipe an entire alliance raid is if you are actively refusing to do your job; a tank who doesn't split or take adds even when asked. A healer who just does nothing.


Oh, wow, I actually had no idea about that bit. I just knew that you couldn't progress in 5.3 if you hadn't finished it when it dropped.

I will say, though, I am absolutely certain that if we let Syrcus be a little harder at least, nobody would be trapped in ARR no matter what. Why? Because World of Darkness is more difficult than Syrcus.


When was it nerfed? Was Glasya allowed to do his platform mechanic? Did Scylla actually kill people who didn't stand in puddles? Or was that gone by then also?

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Both scylia and Glasya had pad style mechanics at release they are currently not active. Scylia has a spell called daybreak that she would cast sub 50% hp and Glasya has death flame that required the outer platforms to avoid after he his first cast which was not lethal but all casts after are. The nerfed happened before World of darkness I think not to sure. Mizteq guides on youtube for lab and Sycrus show the raids in their pre-nerf state.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

You literally just said "Not everyone will want to learn things or improve and games won't reject them." That's saying that the game finds it acceptable for someone to not learn or improve.

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It does - it doesn't ban, it doesn't require it to progress MSQ and doesn't allow others to shame/call out/kick for that. You can do logs/parses/optimize but on your own responsibility which may be bannable in the future and it requires third party apps. You can't grade people based on their performance and at max you can only suggest them do X or Y... and on top of that it's rather easy to carry people through a dungeon or an 8-man trial assuming few are good. Even dungeon with singular tank and healer can be carried if only one of them is good.

This isn't WoW where player/third party performance rating is the norm and where content scales up for higher and higher brackets of players. MSQ or instances for the lowest in the barrel is more than braindead and Blizzard doesn't really care if someone gets kicked or told to die of cancer due to their bad performance. And most of the content is sensitive to people staying alive and performing.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I never said any of that. Good job, man. Now you're just making false assumptions.

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You directly or indirectly assume people play similarly to you or that they would do so given proper guidance and thus the content is either to easy at that level or must be changed to a better one to be that perfect guidance/learning process that make players play in a specific way/on specific level.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

???

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Not everyone will want to learn things or improve and games won't reject them.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

I have nothing to say about whom this game caters to.

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Do you not understand you're contradicting yourself here? First you say that the game accepts players who aren't willing to learn or improve, so you're acknowledging that the game appeals to these sort of players. Then after that you promptly say you "have nothing to say about who this game caters to" even though you just said that the game accepts those who aren't willing to learn and improve. It's honestly hilarious that you can't comprehend that you're immediately negating your points after you bring them up.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

You directly or indirectly assume people play similarly to you or that they would do so given proper guidance...

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This is just putting words in my mouth again. What I actually said, in case you didn't remember, is that overpowered tanks can just carry the entire party through the dungeon because they can solo the bosses so new players aren't given the opportunity to at least learn the fight properly. Not anywhere did I say/assume that the content is too easy because new players would play similarly to me or that they would even do so given proper guidance. We don't even know if a new player would play properly with guidance. But yeah man, you go ahead and keep on twisting what I say and what my intentions are in commenting in this thread. That's the spirit.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

tryhards like you would move out of random duty finder because you would not want them to "learn" on your expense so PF would be used and only "experienced" players would be allowed to join in.

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Also, you're really gonna pretend you didn't just make this false assumption that "I would move out of random duty finder because you would not want them to "learn" on your expense so PF would be used and only "experienced" players would be allowed to join in?" Why even try to mischaracterize someone like this? This assumption of yours was made completely in bad faith and it was an awful attempt at trying to paint me as some kind of elitist.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Ok, but if this ability to solo a boss carries over into duty finder, where people might actually want to do and learn the fight properly...

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Like I'm literally arguing in favor of having new players learn the mechanics of old content as opposed to being carried through the dungeon by overpowered tanks because tanks can solo the content.

You contradict yourself, you go off on tangents either unintentionally or deliberately as a red herring, and you try to put words in my mouth or falsely assume what my intentions are. It's entirely dishonest of you at this point and there's really no reason for me to continue on with this conversation. Have a good day.

Hey. I didn't read the whole topic but I 100% agree with the main idea. I cleared Pandaemonium last weak and start some old Savage raid in MINE,but it was ... disappointing. I feel that some mechanics should kill use several time but it doesn't, the DPS check is no more existing, etc.

For me, FFXIV is the best MMO for a single reason : old content never die. Hence, we are not forced to finish the current tier before the next release because we always can return to it later. We even can skip a tier (sometimes, in life, we just can't play some several months, because of exam, familiy/job issues, etc.).

But now that I see that it's not that true, I feel like I HAVE TO play before it's too late. We will start UWU today and I know that even if we succed to kill it, in several months, even if it's hard, I will never be 100% satisfied because we cannot clear it in the authentic difficulty, i.e. as it was on the release.


I don't know if many players are in this case, if Square Enix know about that and if they plan to fix it (I guess Unreal content is one of the way to do that but there is about 20 extremes + savages boss per expensions, there is no chance that we can do them all in their relevant version of difficulty).

I have no idea how hard it is, but I think that they need to rework the MINE (min ilvl no echo) system. The ilvl should be fixed in another way (I don't know exactly how it works, specially with gear with new system of stats, but I heard that even in MINE, our gear is better than it supposed to be on the release) but they also have to rebalance the boss HP/damage, to compensate new potencies, etc. (or belanced the players ones). There must be a way to compute the average stats of a synched character and compare it the the average stats of a character on the relase (like, average HP, average strenght, potency, etc.). For example, if the new stats are in average 20% higher, just divide all our stats by 1.2 and even if it not fill perfectly, the difficulty should be more realistic and the feeling better.

Hope that SE will work on that one day, I really want to cry on A8S, Thordan and so on. Let me believe

That's because they need people to queue for the old content so new players can do it. If you make it harder, a lot of people prefers 30 minutes lockdown than do the duty. That happened with Monastery on alliance roulette. People leaving the party because don't want to deal with a bit harder than normal mechanics. Some people in this game can't handle a wipe for whatever reason. Hell, they even purposely down the item level to get LotA or Syrcus in alliance. The old content is easy so people won't leave because a potential very long run. A lot of people here likes to say how good they are than need harder content everywhere, yet they are the first one on leave if there is a possibility of having wipes. Pathetic. Now they complains is too easy.

Best example is Mentor Roulette. People avoid the extremes and complaint that they are in the mentor roulette, while tell other players to go PF an unsych it, because no body will do the extreme at original level.

Old content is easy because of this. It is a catch up thing.

I would like to be harder, but a lot of people just want a 10 minutes roulette and not deal with any wipe.

Usually, roulettes give access to just synched content (and moslty only normal/hard mode, not extreme/savage (except mentor)). In this case, I have no problem with easy content because people don't go there for challenge but for farm/XP/etc.

The mode I would like to be rebalanced is the MINE (min ilvl) because poeple that choose that option are looking for challenge and I never see MINE in a roulette.

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Originally Posted by Makiyaa

For me, FFXIV is the best MMO for a single reason : old content never die. Hence, we are not forced to finish the current tier before the next release because we always can return to it later. We even can skip a tier (sometimes, in life, we just can't play some several months, because of exam, familiy/job issues, etc.).

But now that I see that it's not that true,

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It really is the biggest myth about this game ever told.

Old content dies just as fast as any other MMO in this game, both from lack of player interest, and to blanket nerfs/job changes ruining the original experience.

Wish there was a way to experience Turn 13 how it was in 2.0 again...

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Having done dungeon/raids before and after 6.0, such as Tam Tara Hard and Breath of the Creator normal, I can say nothing has fundamentally changed whatsoever, besides certain mechanics in certain instances no longer being one-shotters (while many of them still being so, even in 50 instances like Tam Tara hard). Managed to wipe on the first and last boss of Tam Tara Hard because we messed up the mechanics of both. Healed Breath of the Creator and his health pool was no different than before, perhaps higher, took a few minutes to take him down, and the damage being put out across the whole raid made it quite difficult for me even with another healer to keep everyone up.

You realize potencies have been NERFED for a lot of jobs' abilities, right? Unless we get look at the raw numbers before and after 6.0 for content, than it's hard to say anything's changed. But you're suggesting they've been upping potencies across the board each expansion which is just not even remotely true. I'm sure some things are different now, some content marginally easier, others marginally harder, but it's definitely not easier accross the board, let alone with each subsequent expansion. Except when they go back and deliberately nerf fights like Thordan. Part of the problem as another user mentioned is content not being designed for how jobs play now. Like how threat worked in ARR and how it works now. I don't really know what they could do about that though.

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They nerfed Steps of Faith because it was too hard. I am honestly of the opinion that I have no issue with content being easy if it's story content [I say this and I have begun savage this tier]. No one should be blocked out of the story by content they can't clear, and if MSQ content is faceroll to make it so that the players who have a harder time due to disability can clear it, so what? If you want harder content run savage or ex or ultimate.

So I finally ran Toto Rak post nerf. Seeing it turn into a hallway was heartbreaking. :/

Always been against the inclusion of unsynced since it effectively removes the amount of content players can participate in.

Why learn a raid when you can just press a button and solo it.

Same issue as WoW with years of content down the drain.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Back at ARR launch period, we didn't have Direct Hit nor was it as commonplace for Healers to just be full blown DPS (There were those that did throw some GCDs on DPS, but MP management was a a thing, so it was more a surprise to see one doing it rather than the norm for a long time, till we overgeared everything), additionally Tank damage was abysmal. Not only did their Tank stance actively reduce damage dealt, but their actions had bonus Enmity in place of potency.

So we have gone from 4 proper DPS and 2 nerfed damage tanks with 2 healers not spending every GCD on damage to 8 DPS with a whole extra damage stat.

And youre confused why content designed in one era is made easier when the jobs have evolved past that design?

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1. Regarding the "power stat", Direct Hit, as cause of faster clears:

The power creep factor there isn't that we lacked Direct Hit. If it were gone, you'd just spend that much more on Determination, Crit, and Speed. Direct Hit quickly falls short of Crit's scaling anyways, and Determination's scaling factor falls barely short of Direct Hit throughout. At certain thresholds, Speed is wholly competitive with Direct Hit.

The only stat issue was Accuracy eating away a portion of our secondary stat budget.
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2. Regarding the idea that Tank Stances' removal and the lack of so much free healing caused the faster clears:

Healers' and tanks' maximal damage output was also higher then, relative to a DPS, than it is now. When tanks' tank stances became free, so too did a fair portion of their damage penalties, but with no way to avoid it by dropping stance. As healers have become increasingly able to meet content's healing requirement via free healing, their relative maximum output has likewise declined slightly.

The power creep we've had since is a simple matter of relative potency per minute, and that shift has not primarily been a result merely things like tank stance (which was quickly dropped), or a far greater portion of healer GCDs being spent on healing (which healers' maximum output has gradually been tuned down for).

Both the changes to tanks and healers are factors in that powercreep, but notably less significant than simple relative potency increases to our abilities.



An early ARR Dragoon, for instance, saw its damage CD on an 80s cooldown, True Thrust at 150 potency, Full Thrust at 330 potency, Dragonfire Dive on a 3-minute CD and at lower potency, Spineshatter Dive on a 90s CD, Jump at a mere two-thirds its potency (dependent on Power Surge's 50% buff, on a 90s CD, to do its current damage), etc., etc. Even after accounting for Heavy Thrust and early Disembowel (10%), a level 50 Dragoon now does about a quarter more potency per minute than it did then.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It really is the biggest myth about this game ever told.

Old content dies just as fast as any other MMO in this game, both from lack of player interest, and to blanket nerfs/job changes ruining the original experience.

Wish there was a way to experience Turn 13 how it was in 2.0 again...

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Eh, it doesn't "die" in the same way as it does in other mmos. Entropy comes for all, but in this game, the statement is describing more the lack of a content treadmill, and how design doesn't purposefully kick content to the curb by funneling all players, new and old, onto current content exclusively... and that even new jobs like sage are built to... say experience a version of T13, to use your example that was never possible in 2.0 for obvious reasons.

That said, it seems like you put much value on the "original" experience. The idea that the original is king and all else are pretenders not worth the time of day is not one I jive with at all. MMOs are unique in that things are ever changing, and that should be embraced. We're getting 6.18 soon,and with that, we say farewell to 6.15 and await the changes that datacenter travel will ripple through the game.

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That said, it seems like you put much value on the "original" experience

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I admit that I would like to would try the "original" experience, but it's not the point here. I am not that sad that some old skills are removed and I like the fact that new jobs can go into old content (even if I don't want play Gunbreaker in lvl70 content, but it's more about personal preference). The point is the original difficulty rather than original experience.

What people want is that the old content stay hard thought time. Even if the skills or system changed, even if there are news jobs. We just want to say "we did it because we are good and not because this boss became easier".