P1N Warrior solo kill

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Please post the all healer no tank clear of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks can do -far more- than it rewards what healers can do.

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I'll do that as soon as you show me how gimmick all tank no healer runs have become the standard for the game's content and healers are struggling to find groups because of it.

You can't and you won't.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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For all you say, I still have no idea what you want to be done. Do you want every single piece of content to be solo-able by everyone? Or people so nerfed it can't be solo'd by anyone? Do you want fights changed or jobs? What are you asking for? Cause certain jobs being able to do X happens in all content, in every game, all the time. You are playing this victim card like you and healers like you are being targeted and treated unfairly.

Again, it's not like the fights are designed to completely remove healers, but you make it seem like it is. The fact that any current fight can be cleared without a healer is an oversight at the very least. What I find funny is the tanks weren't the main reason why the two EX's were cleared without a healer, it was a mixture of Reaper and Dancer healing kits to keep the dps alive enough to meet the DPS check. Because if it was any other dps comp besides Reapers and Dancers, too many DPS would have died and they would have enraged.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

So I'm going to ask for probably the fourth time in this thread: why are tanks allowed to flip the concept of teamwork or the trinity the bird

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To answer: No tank asked SE to be the only one to solo content(even though WAR has been able to solo content since HW, it's not like this is news), and to answer your other question, no tank would give any though if a fight could be cleared without a tank. Not a one would care. The sole reason why it's not a thought in the world for current content is SOLELY because Tank Busters exist in every. single. fight. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. There are solo tank/solo heal clears of P1S, and there are also DPS deaths due to not being able to work around the tank busters. So if you are asking for a mandatory healer mechanic to be copy/pasted into every fight so you have to take a healer no matter what, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's an issue entirely separate from the laughable idea earlier in the thread that healers "should" do less damage than tanks because their contribution is "more valuable", when literally every single piece of evidence in content as designed shows that healers are the LEAST valuable members of any given party.

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I don't know if this is news to you, but healers and tanks are always the first to be cut, it's just that tanks are cut less due to unavoidable tank busters that would result in the death of a dps or healer if not for two tanks. Here is another thing, every non standard kill is either for fun, or for a challenge, and that's it. A majority of the time, they are so un-optimal that once they are proven that they can be done they are hardly re-done as they are usually so un-optimal to do so. You say healers are the LEAST valuable, when if chosen, 99% of players would sacrifice a tank or dps before a healer. Most wipes happen from all healers being dead and the damage killing the party. So I really don't know why you downplay such an important role.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That's essentially the point of this entire thread.

That tanks are essentially Gods right now. They can cover every single role and have no weaknesses other than content takes them a bit longer to do on their own.

No other Role can say that.

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I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

All of these issues can be readily solved with two simple additions:

1. Significantly higher outgoing damage so tanks simply can't solo content like this, specifically Normal modes. It's absurd that even in a damage I can take a split stack solo and not even lose half my HP with only Reprisal running. That should outright kill me if not come incredibly close with big CDs running. The fact it doesn't is a far bigger issue than tank self-healing. They shouldn't be in a position to heal that much to begin with.

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The damage output last expansion was slow and lacking. This expansion is not only worse, but they have given several jobs some hefty healing and mit skills. Not to mention some of the bonkers skills healers got. The content just isn't demanding enough from healers. Tank self healing honestly wouldn't seem that strong if content actually felt like it hurt.

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2. Put enrages back in normal modes. There's absolutely no reason P1N should last an hour, or that any fight can be a 25+ minute struggle with 40 raises being thrown out. With a hard enrage, you completely nullify tanks even attempting something like this without neutering their gameplay. Once again, the solution shouldn't be to make tanks glorified DPS who occasionally press Vengeance if even that. It should be to fix the issue so both tanks and healers actually have a purpose beyond being weaker damage dealers.

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Agree. Each job is only as important as an instance makes them. If there is no threat of enrage, only an instance timer, the DPS loses its importance. If there is no spike damage, there's no need for a tank. If there's not enough damage going out over all, the healer isn't needed. Yea, a lot of the jobs need tuning right now, but this specific issue has less to do with job design, I feel, and more to do with battle design not properly tuning for where the jobs are now.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

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Having 8 tanks especially WARs IS the optimal choice. No matter what, it´s pretty much impossible to wipe. Hey, there are DPS checks in savage. But in normal? Hell i see more than enough ppl underperforming and dieing, even lately there was a BRD in savage doing less damage than the tanks. So why not playing tanks only with an easy rotation, tons of defs and self-heal? It would be braindead mode.
But of course... there are still some confident players which don´t have to rely on some broken stuff. That´s the only reason why it´s not a thing. Such players prefer to go in with 1-2 tanks and 6 DPS.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Having 8 tanks especially WARs IS the optimal choice. No matter what, it´s pretty much impossible to wipe. Hey, there are DPS checks in savage. But in normal? Hell i see more than enough ppl underperforming and dieing, even lately there was a BRD in savage doing less damage than the tanks. So why not playing tanks only with an easy rotation, tons of defs and self-heal? It would be braindead mode.
But of course... there are still some confident players which don´t have to rely on some broken stuff. That´s the only reason why it´s not a thing. Such players prefer to go in with 1-2 tanks and 6 DPS.

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You have a strange definition of "optimal" if you think "impossible to wipe = optimal"

(also what does some BRD underperforming at thier role have to do with anything?)

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Originally Posted by Ixon

If you watch the clears, the only job with 100% free sustain is WAR. The PLD had to Clemency(dps loss) and the GNB had to 1-2 Brutal Shell spam(dps loss). Not to mention DRK's TBN is only free if the bubble pops otherwise it's also a dps loss.

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We're not talking tank-solos, a form of side content utterly unaccounted for, alone here.
Find me an example of a decent DRK in Savage not popping their bubble. (Good luck; there are none.)
Find me a decent GNB in Savage who only takes their combo as far as Brutal Shell. (Good luck; there are none.)

Until then, the fact that tanks can sacrifice the majority of their damage to spam their combo only up to Brutal Shell for incredibly low returns in any real content has no bearing on the conversation of relative role strength.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

ofc tank can do content alone and no other role can do that (yet ?) it doesn't mean they're OP, it only mean the fight are bad designed and can be cheesed by a single role.

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If the content can be cheesed only by a single role, Ockham's Razor cuts both ways; the role has as high a chance to be the issue as the content, and correcting the single role's interactions would be the more efficient path to a solution than, by adjusting the content, changing all three roles' interactions with that content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Find me an example of a decent DRK in Savage not popping their bubble. (Good luck; there are none.)

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First. Lol.

Second, I can tell you what I can find. Over a thousand parses on any given fight where the healers did not GCD heal once. That has nothing to do with the tank role. Know how I know that? Because people were oGCD only healing Savage fights last expansion as well, where the healing and mitigation from most of the tanks were arguably worse. I can tell you right now you could cut the current healing and mitigation from tanks in half and it would not change a single thing other than maybe making it harder for tanks to solo clear content.

Third, I don't think you understand what "cheesing" something is. Using tank invulns to bypass mechanics is cheesing. Using just Macrocosmos to bypass a healing check in P3S is cheesing. Taking an hour to do a fight isn't cheeseing the fight, it's taking the long way to do something very simple for the challenge of it.

And to be clear, I don't care if a tank can or cannot solo a normal mode because that sounds boring and would take a lot of time so I wouldn't be doing it anyway. If you want the devs to add some artificial requirement for healers similar to tank busters for tanks and dps checks/enrages for dps then sure add away. It won't change the way I play. What I do care about is when people fail to understand that the undertuned fight designs dishing out lackluster damage is the main reason why no healer runs of current fights are even occurring. Look at the no healer EX1. There are only about 4 AoE's in the whole fight. So few and non threatening that the group could kitchen sink every AoE and with 4 Curing Waltz's clear no problem. If anything the tanks in both the EX1 and EX2 had a HARDER time staying alive than the 6 dps, often requiring Clemencies from the PLD.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Taking an hour to do a fight isn't cheeseing the fight, it's taking the long way to do something very simple for the challenge of it.

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Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's ability to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think the crucial part here is whether Warrior being able to solo something like P1N reduces or increases available content.

A solo run of P1N isn't going to replace a normal, far faster run that Warrior could still get instant queues for almost any time of night. As such, it merely adds a form of side-content. Nor is Warrior so advantaged in that core/real content as to bar other tanks from it, reducing available content for those who want to tank but do not want to play Warrior.

It's a bit odd that said side-content is limited to a single tank, with no other tank having their answer to it or similar advantage in other turns, but that's still more just-for-fun side-content than we had before with no loss to real content or job choice therein.

To consider an opposite example, though, Bloodwhetting's scaling procedure could outright destroy Savage dungeons or the like, if they were a thing, making them (especially, their trash) very difficult to balance for both Warrior and the non-Warrior tanks; if merely challenging for non-Warriors, trash would be pitiful to Warriors, while if trash were challenging even to Warriors, it'd likely wall off many non-Warrior tank players. That'd be something that, contextually (i.e., if SE ever wanted to add content variety beyond GS mini-games), would require fixing. (Even now, Bloodwhetting's AoE scaling is beyond ridiculous -- rather than merely mildly OP, as it was in ShB -- and probably should be reeled back to merely relatively overpowered.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

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That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's ability to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

That.. doesn't make sense.

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You have types A, B, and C. Of those, only A interacts in a way that may be problematic with context X. Is X at fault, or A?

The argument was literally just that it could be either one. It is not necessarily X, as you and Alzinor have insisted.

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But, sure, let's back this up a ways, to where the point in contention becomes very obvious.

Even in ShB, you could no-heal and no-dps a majority of content-forms. You would not no-tank them.

Despite tanks clearly therefore being the more designed-in essential role, following ShB, Healer rDPS was decreased from ~64% of a DPS's to ~56%, while (Non-DRK) Tanks not only saw their free self-healing increased from as low as nil to a minimum of 4278 (and maximum of 12440 potency, even in single-target) per minute, their rDPS increased from ~56% of a DPS's to 64%.

Such will, very obviously, cause a shift in relative power in Tanks' favor (over both Healers and DPS), one that time had already proven is far from necessary -- seeing as any period in which tanks have ever become even briefly non-essential has meant immediate redress even while hardly an eye ever bats at Healers being made nonessential.



I say this as someone who plays Tank far more than Healers and prefers tanking to healing: We did not need the degree of power increase that was given to us in EW.

We needed more activity and agency, as arguably every role needed and still needs, but the increase to overall capacity was excessive. It would still be excessive even if there were commensurate added damage funneled into us; such would merely mean that the content would further solidify that imbalance.

Balance within roles is the first place we look to for job diversity, but when balance between roles fails, the whole game starts getting a bit wonky. We haven't yet hit any huge threshold or point of no return but we are certainly leaning that way, which is why we have both the reason and ability to do anything about it.

I feel like people should begin approaching this issue from another point of view. Rather than going "oh no, tanks op," why not simply regard their survival (DRK notwithstanding) as being largely their own responsibility? That's more than enough agency for anybody, and the truth of the matter is that a good WAR, PLD, or GNB is only going to require healing in EX trials, savages, and a handful of dungeon trash pulls with either obnoxiously strong or obnoxious numbers of enemies. Why not embrace it? Let the tanks sustain themselves for the most part. Toss them a heal when necessary, but otherwise concentrate on throwing out damage or healing the floor ta--I mean red DPS.

Removing the increased damage from tanks is going to make far fewer people want to play them, as we saw the last time it happened. Limiting their self-healing, especially if this is done alongside the re-lowering of their damage, will likewise drive a not insignificant number of people away from the role. How does the game benefit from a tank needing twice as long to kill something as a DPS or getting murdered by some inconsequential mobs because they for some reason lack sustain, really? I've been a tank since ARR, and I definitely don't want to go back to the way it was then -- or, for that matter, to have my damage knocked back down to post-nerf levels.

You're right, except for the wrong reasons.

The reason why there's so much passive self-healing on tanks this expansion is to make them more accessible to novice players. When a new tank sees their HP drop below 70%, they panic, activate all their cooldowns, and start typing angry, tearful paragraphs in chat. Automating the healing process makes the experience much less stressful for both the baby tank and their minder, but it also means that those tanks never grow. But it definitely has had an effect. I'm seeing even newer players on the forums and on reddit showing an awareness that tanking is chill and bottom of the barrel skill, and a lot less of the classic 'tanking looks really interesting but I'm too scared to try it' posts. And in retrospect, it probably makes a lot of sense to encourage newer players to filter through a lower queue time role first requiring less skill investment, get some game experience, and then eventually move on to a more engaging role with dps carry potential in raid content.

I think that the loudest voices in this thread have recognized the value in this and are pushing in what is truly the best design direction for tanks. Give them a passive regen that keeps them at full, a trait that lets them ignore additional damage through maximum vuln stacks while providing an automated nappy change, and then quietly scale down their damage between expansion releases to offset this. I wish you all the very best of success with this endeavor.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I'll do that as soon as you show me how gimmick all tank no healer runs have become the standard for the game's content and healers are struggling to find groups because of it.

You can't and you won't.

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So it's only a problem if tanks are easily rendered overpowered? I assume this goalpost is just as easily wheeled back to "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos Ultimate"

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For all you say, I still have no idea what you want to be done. Do you want every single piece of content to be solo-able by everyone? Or people so nerfed it can't be solo'd by anyone? Do you want fights changed or jobs? What are you asking for? Cause certain jobs being able to do X happens in all content, in every game, all the time. You are playing this victim card like you and healers like you are being targeted and treated unfairly.

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As Shurrikhan said, this cuts both ways. It's not just encounter design, as you keep insisting. Healers, for example, are boring. They're boring in a dungeon, they're boring in solo duties, they're boring in savage, they're boring in ultimate. If you heal an ultimate and are at any skill level above "boosted last week", your enjoyment from ultimate comes from the mechanics of the fight, not your role. WHM in particular (the one I played most) has boring, one-dimensional heal spells with almost zero decision making. Healer gameplay is almost entirely down to countering the occasional obligatory unavoidable raidwide with one or two boring spells, most of which don't interact with anything in your kit at all, then return to Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

That's not encounter design that's causing that. It's *exacerbating* it without question, but the job design sucks in a vacuum too.

So back to tanks, Square fixes fights whenever any role other than a tank can handle a tankbuster, but if a non-healer can handle a heal check they have never once given a rat's behind. I don't claim this is because Square "hates healers" (believe me, there's tons of other evidence to suggest they either hate or are indifferent to the role, see above), but it's still an interesting data point that Square seems quite insistent upon making tanks impossible to replace even by highly skilled strategists. Even if their methods include something as ham fisted as a tankbuster every fight. What's their design philosophy that makes tank invalidation a huge red flag, requiring immediate rebalancing, but no healers? Cool, that's just "skill", no need for changes.

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Why not embrace it? Let the tanks sustain themselves for the most part. Toss them a heal when necessary, but otherwise concentrate on throwing out damage or healing the floor ta--I mean red DPS.

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Edit: I'm also not sure whence came this weird notion about what a tank's purpose is. I've seen this more than once in the tank forums. This idea that the tank's role is to be the party superhero that could probably do the fight all by himself if need be, but he brings DPS and healer sidekicks to clear the fight faster for him. That healers exist to heal the DPS that are enabling the tank's clear. What a bizarre, antisocial way to view teamwork. Glad we're just here to make the instance faster for you.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.

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If it was a fight design flaw, only being low outgoing damage, then other roles could accomplish it. We don't have that situation on our hands do we?

Let's admit it's a mixture of low relative damage (which tank mitigation as well as invulnerabilities can negate) coupled with high tank sustainability.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Removing the increased damage from tanks is going to make far fewer people want to play them, as we saw the last time it happened. Limiting their self-healing, especially if this is done alongside the re-lowering of their damage, will likewise drive a not insignificant number of people away from the role. How does the game benefit from a tank needing twice as long to kill something as a DPS or getting murdered by some inconsequential mobs because they for some reason lack sustain, really? I've been a tank since ARR, and I definitely don't want to go back to the way it was then -- or, for that matter, to have my damage knocked back down to post-nerf levels..

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None of that has anything to do with tank damage. This is NOT about nerfing tank damage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Balance within roles is the first place we look to for job diversity, but when balance between roles fails, the whole game starts getting a bit wonky. We haven't yet hit any huge threshold or point of no return but we are certainly leaning that way, which is why we have both the reason and ability to do anything about it.

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Every role needs to have some weakness that the other roles can augment. Tanks right now don't.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If it was a fight design flaw, only being low outgoing damage, then other roles could accomplish it. We don't have that situation on our hands do we?

Let's admit it's a mixture of low relative damage (which tank mitigation as well as invulnerabilities can negate) coupled with high tank sustainability.

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Except that the only reason why P1N can be soloable is because the only DPS requirement of a DPS check is not there, and the overall fight damage is laughable. Most fights are designed as such: Tank Busters/Mechanics necessitate the need for a tank, high overall party damage necessitates a need for a healer, and DPS checks/enrages necessitates DPS. P1N is missing two out of three, all that's left is the tank busters. Which by design, can only be handled by the tank, hence why it's called a tank buster, which is why only tanks can clear P1N at the moment. Healers have more sustain than tanks and DPS have and DPS have more damage than the tanks and healers have, but cannot survive tank busters, which is why you hardly see no tank clears. DPS checks are the least likely to exist in Normal modes, and the damage output of Normal modes are about ~30% of what it is in Savage because that's how Normal modes are designed.

The issue is this, you can go ahead and nerf tank sustain. I wouldn't care. GNB did not have nearly what it has now, and the only think I would miss is not being able to carry bad parties as much, but I'd survive. You could nerf it in a way that no tank could solo P1N, and I doubt anyone would really actually care because no one is clearing it solo outside of the challenge of wanting to waste an hour of your day. The issue is it would NOT help the issue healers are having. At all. So the tanks would need an extra essential, lustrate, tetra, per fight. I highly doubt any healer needing to use one more oGCD on the tank is going to jump for joy and praise SE that healers are fixed. It's the fact that almost every fight can be done without needing to cast a single GCD, or done without needing to use the full extent of their kit. Which is strictly why I put the issue on the fight designs.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Edit: I'm also not sure whence came this weird notion about what a tank's purpose is. I've seen this more than once in the tank forums. This idea that the tank's role is to be the party superhero that could probably do the fight all by himself if need be, but he brings DPS and healer sidekicks to clear the fight faster for him. That healers exist to heal the DPS that are enabling the tank's clear. What a bizarre, antisocial way to view teamwork. Glad we're just here to make the instance faster for you.

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I mean, do you know what dps mean ?

"Damage Per Second" so.....yes it is basically your role to make our fight faster ? idk ?

and healer still have to heal the party and make sure nobody die, then they can dps for the downtime..

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

You have a strange definition of "optimal" if you think "impossible to wipe = optimal"

(also what does some BRD underperforming at thier role have to do with anything?)

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It´s no strange definiton, it´s reality. Optimal would be the most effective way across all circumstances. Of course if you´ve 8 confident players, the optimal choice would be to go in with 8 DPS classes, if there wouldn´t be a bunch of raidwides or tankbusters. But if there is no DPS check, it´s 8 tanks (8 warriors).

Tanks are nearly equal to healer, if not a bit higher in comparison if we talk about dps. DPS classes are about ~33% better if we count the top parses. So if we compare a standard grp of 2 tanks, 4 DPS and 2 healer to a full tank party, then the tankparty is doing about 20% less damage. If a standard comp is able to clear a fight in 10 minutes, the tank party would need 12. It might sound much to you or others, but it isn´t.
Those 2 minutes are well spend. If some ppl die in the standard comp, then those 2 minutes are nothing anymore. The risk to wipe is way higher too, meanwhile a fulltank party can ignore half of the mechanics and still performing top damage and keeping 100% uptime. The rotation is easier and they´re way more forgivable in any way, which lasts in my example. A lot of players aren´t able to perform well on any classes especially not DPS classes. But if they pick a WAR, they play 123 all day long meanwhile being pretty much unkillable. And you meet such ppl every day. A bunch do even jump on the OT spot to prog savage for obvious reasons.
If you keep such things in mind, then the most effective way is to pick the safe and easy choice called "8x WAR". I´m convinced it would prevent a bunch of stupid wipes and so far way more wasted time than those ~20%. (As it was at the given example of Rathalos.)


Tanks are broken and WAR is on top of it. As been said, without DPS checks and perhaps without such "Play the trinity!"-mechanics, 8 tanks or 1 tank / 7 DPS would be a permanent thing. We already saw 2 tanks and 6 DPS in Zodiark., so yeah. SE just tries to push us in the standard comp with the 1% bonus and stuff like healerstacks to justify the existence of RDPS and healer classes and to ignore the broken state of tanks completely. Tanking is absolutely braindead and the best choice to prog / to beat any content.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s no strange definiton, it´s reality. Optimal would be the most effective way across all circumstances. Of course if you´ve 8 confident players, the optimal choice would be to go in with 8 DPS classes, if there wouldn´t be a bunch of raidwides or tankbusters. But if there is no DPS check, it´s 8 tanks (8 warriors).

Tanks are nearly equal to healer, if not a bit higher in comparison if we talk about dps. DPS classes are about ~33% better if we count the top parses. So if we compare a standard grp of 2 tanks, 4 DPS and 2 healer to a full tank party, then the tankparty is doing about 20% less damage. If a standard comp is able to clear a fight in 10 minutes, the tank party would need 12. It might sound much to you or others, but it isn´t.
Those 2 minutes are well spend. If some ppl die in the standard comp, then those 2 minutes are nothing anymore. The risk to wipe is way higher too, meanwhile a fulltank party can ignore half of the mechanics and still performing top damage and keeping 100% uptime. The rotation is easier and they´re way more forgivable in any way, which lasts in my example. A lot of players aren´t able to perform well on any classes especially not DPS classes. But if they pick a WAR, they play 123 all day long meanwhile being pretty much unkillable. And you meet such ppl every day. A bunch do even jump on the OT spot to prog savage for obvious reasons.
If you keep such things in mind, then the most effective way is to pick the safe and easy choice called "8x WAR". I´m convinced it would prevent a bunch of stupid wipes and so far way more wasted time than those ~20%. (As it was at the given example of Rathalos.)

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Except the optimal way to progress in endgame content in FF is to kill the savage tier asap to get your bis faster and maybe prepare ultimate or logrun or speedkill etc....

If your goal is to kill week1, you definitely cannot do it as 8 tank since tight dps check on most fight is a thing.

beside that, people who clear a savage tier probably week 10 or higher, yes a full party of tank would be a thing since you can have a tons of gears in 10 week to upgrade your ilvl AND even with that, it would be possible with a solide dps from each tank, which means that a static of average dps tier tank couldn't even clear because of the dps check.

Even in progress, tank do not take tons of damage but they still can die from deadly mechanics or because they pay no attention, so, if it happen ? who's going to rez them ? Do you know that many people cleared their savage fight because there were healer to adjust and rez people.
it is better to have a party with any role to make sure you can still prog or pass a 8 man mechanics instead on jumping in the wall after 8min because you know you can't go further with dead people on your side

Then no, 8 tank is not optimal in any way, optimal also mean " fast prog and fast kill" not waiting a bunch of week to flex on people " hey look game is ez i've cleared with a 8 tank party week 45" or even " hey just did my weekly as 8 tank and it took us 2 more min on each fight to kill because we had no dps lol"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Every role needs to have some weakness that the other roles can augment. Tanks right now don't.

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We can not rez people :rolleyes:

but more seriously, every role have a weakness, even tank.

dps : they're squishy and are dependant of healing and mitigation from healers and tank but they have the highest damage in game and help a lot to rpgress and clear a fight.
healers : can heal and even tank auto attack even in savage (true story) but can not take tank buster / can not do enough damage to clear a fight by themselves..
tank : can pretty much do a good dps, heal themselves and sometimes party but don't have the highest damage in game and are dependant of healers and dps on some fights with tight dps / heal check or even mechanics which require to have a specific role inside.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Then no, 8 tank is not optimal in any way, optimal also mean " fast prog and fast kill" not waiting a bunch of week to flex on people " hey look game is ez i've cleared with a 8 tank party week 45" or even " hey just did my weekly as 8 tank and it took us 2 more min on each fight to kill because we had no dps lol"

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I don´t know, have you read? I said, if there is no DPS check. It´s one of the things to force ppl to play standard comps. But if there is none, tanks are the easy choice.
Even in savage or overall world first prog, 8 tanks are superior. First of all you might see more mechanics since ppl actually survive. And if there is no DPS check, then you just gonna faceroll 30 minutes through a fight.
A perfect example would be P1s. If someone fucks up the gems, it´s mostly a wipe. But if you´ve 8 tanks, it doesn´t matter if someone fcks them up. So all what holds you back is that DPS check. So far it might be a thing that the prog would be even faster if there wouldn´t be such DPC checks and all because tanks are nothing but broken and highly forgivable.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

dps : they're squishy and are dependant of healing and mitigation from healers and tank but they have the highest damage in game and help a lot to rpgress and clear a fight.
healers : can heal and even tank auto attack even in savage (true story) but can not take tank buster / can not do enough damage to clear a fight by themselves..
tank : can pretty much do a good dps, heal themselves and sometimes party but don't have the highest damage in game and are dependant of healers and dps on some fights with tight dps / heal check or even mechanics which require to have a specific role inside.

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Funny thing:

DPS are dependant on everything.
Healers are dependant on everything.
Tanks are only dependant on DPS checks, which are only a thing in savage content. Heal-checks are a joke especially for WAR, stack mechanics can be solo´d. Instakill mechanics because "You´ve the wrong role" actually show that SE just tries to force us to play nothing but a standard-comp instead of fixing their classes. Not to mention that 95% of all content can be solod by tanks, meanwhile DPS sucks hard for their 33% more damage and healers can only do that out of hardhitting tankbusters with 100 times more efford and time investment.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I don´t know, have you read? I said, if there is no DPS check. It´s one of the things to force ppl to play standard comps. But if there is none, tanks are the easy choice.
Even in savage or overall world first prog, 8 tanks are superior. First of all you might see more mechanics since ppl actually survive. And if there is no DPS check, then you just gonna faceroll 30 minutes through a fight.
A perfect example would be P1s. If someone fucks up the gems, it´s mostly a wipe. But if you´ve 8 tanks, it doesn´t matter if someone fcks them up. So all what holds you back is that DPS check. So far it might be a thing that the prog would be even faster if there wouldn´t be such DPC checks and all because tanks are nothing but broken and highly forgivable.

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Y but do you play the game ?
There is always a dps check on any endgame fight ( i mean relevant savage or ultimate fight) so why arguing " y but what if the dps check is no longer a thing" since it won't happen ?

that's why your 8 tank party will never be a thing in relevant time.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Funny thing:

DPS are dependant on everything.
Healers are dependant on everything.
Tanks are only dependant on DPS checks, which are only a thing in savage content. Heal-checks are a joke, stack mechanics can be solo´d. Instakill mechanics because "You´ve the wrong role"
actually show that SE just tries to force us to play nothing but a standard-comp instead of fixing their classes.

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Who care about dungeons or story mode raid, they're just a thing for story, if you were looking about difficulties inside, you play the wrong content.

Pretty sure with a bit of adjust you can do a run 8 dps or 8 healer on normal raid and bring 2 rdm or smn to rez people after each TB since auto attack are a joke in NM.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Y but do you play the game ?
There is always a dps check on any endgame fight ( i mean relevant savage or ultimate fight) so why arguing " y but what if the dps check is no longer a thing" since it won't happen ?

that's why your 8 tank party will never be a thing in relevant time.

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Because it´s relevant in kind of class-balancing?

"Hey guys, we know tanks are non-stop broken. But hey... we´ve DPS checks atleast in savage. So you need those 4 DPS. And those 4 DPS need 2 healer which take care about them. So all is fine! ISN`T IT??? ;)"

I´m a big fan of the holy trinity, but the class balancing and relevance here is a joke. Tanks are way superior, warrior is a one-man-army, meanwhile healer are green DPS which have to babysit themselves and DPS at any raidwide with off globals.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Who care about dungeons or story mode raid, they're just a thing for story, if you were looking about difficulties inside, you play the wrong content.

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It´s part of the game as savage and other stuff is. Probably 90% of the whole playerbase will never meet anything else. And for endgame-players it´s even a big part since you run it pointlessly down for some tomes. All have to be kept in mind.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Because it´s relevant in kind of class-balancing?

"Hey guys, we know tanks are non-stop broken. But hey... we´ve DPS checks atleast in savage. So you need those 4 DPS. And those 4 DPS need 2 healer which take care about them. So all is fine! ISN`T IT??? ;)"

I´m a big fan of the holy trinity, but the class balancing and relevance here is a joke. Tanks are way superior meanwhile healer are green DPS which have to babysit themselves and DPS at any raidwide with off globals.

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Soooo admitting you are right, give me your opinion, tell me how you would balance tank role then ? (it is a serious question, no troll)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s part of the game as savage and other stuff is. Probably 90% of the whole playerbase will never meet anything else. And for endgame-players it´s even a big part since you run it pointlessly down for some tomes. All have to be kept in mind.

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Yes but their main goal is to allow people with different scale of skill to take down content, they're not ingame to give you challenge, it is a casual content made for the casual playerbase which is probably 80% of the playerbase ingame.
That's why, you often run dungeons or nm raid and they seems to be over easy and not ask you to use all of your tank / heal / dps tools because it is the goal they were designed for.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

There is always a dps check on any endgame fight ( i mean relevant savage or ultimate fight) so why arguing " y but what if the dps check is no longer a thing" since it won't happen ?

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Hate to break it for ya, but DPS checks have only been threats in final Savage fights for 1st/2nd week clears. Ultimates they really don't, solid strategies make them stop existing. You can die 5-7x on UWU/UCOB and still clear the fights, TEA can get away with a couple deaths as long they don't die at the wrong time, BJ/CC/Pepsiman/Alex wipe groups without everyones participation. Every group gets told if you're still struggling to beat DPS check, people are not pulling their weight, or don't care enough to try.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Hate to break it for ya, but DPS checks have only been threats in final Savage fights for 1st/2nd week clears. Ultimates they really don't, solid strategies make them stop existing. You can die 5-7x on UWU/UCOB and still clear the fights, TEA can get away with a couple deaths as long they don't die at the wrong time, BJ/CC/Pepsiman/Alex wipe groups without everyones participation. Every group gets told if you're still struggling to beat DPS check, people are not pulling their weight, or don't care enough to try.

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That's why i said " relevant savage or ultimate fight".

ucob have no longer dps check with the synch scale and it is even worse since endwalker scalling ( you can skip nael divebomb with a good group, dunno if it was possible before)

Ultima is just an extreme but 14 min long.

and TEA is only mechanics, you can die plenty of times on it, as long as everyone is up on perfect and meet perfect dps check, you're good (even if like you said, you can wipe if you die at the wrong moment)

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Every group gets told if you're still struggling to beat DPS check, people are not pulling their weight, or don't care enough to try.

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And i totally agree on it, just said you couldn't go 8 tank week 1 and even week 3, if your dps as tank is average, and if you have 7 tank like you in your team, i'm not even sure you could meet the dps check for some fights (p2s or p3s as a perfect example)

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

( you can skip nael divebomb with a good group, dunno if it was possible before)

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Was in SHBs, but you needed a speed setup.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

It's the fact that almost every fight can be done without needing to cast a single GCD, or done without needing to use the full extent of their kit. Which is strictly why I put the issue on the fight designs.

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Yay, more outgoing damage. I can't wait to run out of oGCDs so I can finally, finally pull out the pulsepounding excitement that is

Regen. Cure 2. Cure 2. Cure 2. Cure 2. Cure 2. Cure 2.

Hmm there's something (Dia) oddly familiar (Glare) about the pattern (Glare) here but I (Glare) can't put my finger on it.

I haven't the foggiest idea why anyone would consider being forced into the equality terribly designed noninteractive GCD healing spells a "fix" to healer engagement. A boring spell being on the GCD doesn't magically render it well-designed. Maybe other former healer mains disagree, but I'm not Yoshi's target audience. My healing jollies don't get me all giddy just because ooooo, I heard the Cure 2 noise, cast it again! And again! And again!

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I haven't the foggiest idea why anyone would consider being forced into the equality terribly designed noninteractive GCD healing spells a "fix" to healer engagement. A boring spell being on the GCD doesn't magically render it well-designed. Maybe other former healer mains disagree, but I'm not Yoshi's target audience. My healing jollies don't get me all giddy just because ooooo, I heard the Cure 2 noise, cast it again! And again! And again!

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While I don't agree with Ixon's position here...

I don't think anyone has claimed that we get our "healing jollies" over the AFX or VFX of healing spells; rather, having times in which someone absolutely will die if you do not seriously pump for a moment can be exciting (though it obviously involves questions of accessibility on which the devs had clearly sided in just one direction).

If the difference of being half-awake for a Healer is that "Oh no! I left a oGCD on CD too long and had to use a GCD heal and thus lost 310 potency in the fight!" instead of "Well, shit, they're dead because of me...," it gives little weight to the player's impact so long as they're a healer.

Moreover, that the GCD kit is terribly designed now does not mean that it must always remain so. The barriers to its improvement are not unique; they're the same as for any other part of healer play: that the devs actually put the necessary time into the Healer role. We certainly have examples from other MMOs more interesting GCD healing (and of healing kits in general).

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I assume this goalpost is just as easily wheeled back to "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos Ultimate"

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We're not going to worry about the next goalpost until you've reached the first one.

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

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Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

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Because it's never going to happen. Healers will never be put back; they've essentially made an entire role pointless. The difficulty of it doesn't matter, the fact that it happened invalidates an entire role, and legitimately puts us in the position of babysitter.

When were you under the impression that a healer's job wasn't babysitting? Because uh... that's been their purpose pretty much since the inception of games with different stat allocations/defined roles. No matter what changes are made in FFXIV, healers will pretty much always be the babysitters. The only difference is that three of the tank jobs no longer require a babysitter in most content.

At any rate, they balance the game pretty much entirely around endgame. I wouldn't go expecting much until tanks start soloing savage.

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Originally Posted by Aegis_Harvey

Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

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I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

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Originally Posted by Venks

I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

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This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

It's amazing how many people will try to defend this. 8-person contents should not be possible with only one person at the level and roughly the ilevel it was created for. (Factoring in the loss of the Full Party bonus, the stats should be pretty close to base 570-580).

There is a serious problem if that's the case, whether it's WAR being badly overpowered, the encounter being badly undertuned, or (most likely) both.

Some people will say it's OK because it's easy mode, but even if most players aren't intense enough to do this for healers shouldn't be dead weight in any content. Players will know if they're fundamental unnecessary even if a party messes up enough that they're actually needed.

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It's not warrior being overpowered. Before the stat crunch we had a DPS problem where everything was dying so fast it didn't have a chance to use all the mechanics in the fight. When they level crunched things they fixed that issue, but the defense stat balance is off on tanks vs non-tanks, so when attacks are balanced to not kill the DPS in one shot at given min-iLvL, it is lightyears behind the tank defense. It's not that warrior healing is OP, it's that monsters hit someone like they are slapping them with a wet spunge, and the dps are so frail they just fall over from it.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

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I completely agree with that assessment. I think Square/YoshiP wants the game to be approachable for everyone, even those who are really only here for the story. And yeah the dungeons in this expansion in particular have definitely suffered. It seems enemies in current dungeons are lacking more abilities compared to those in previous expansions, there's no need to interject or stun things. It would be really nice if there were Savage versions of dungeons so that there's more current content that asks players to utilize their kits.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

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They took forever and they were easy. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb

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Yoshi-P flat out said in a live letter we will never go back to the more complicated healing DPS style of Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch,.

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2 pack pulls have been standard since Stormblood (maybe even Heavensward). It's funny mention Holmister because it's literally 2 pack pulls. Mt. Gulg is an aberration when it comes to that rule which is funny because that's one of the more fun pulls.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

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Wait has a Gunbreaker solo cleared P1N? I can only find Aka Ada’s WAR clear and my PLD clear. Who is this Gunbreaker? Is there a vid?