I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Lots of people are. That expectation right there is why people get criticized over stupid stuff. And with each new level cap there's new skills and new rotations to learn, etc.

If you think people have nothing left to learn at level cap, you're the one who needs to learn something.

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Nope. Every time there's a new level cap, everyone wants to keep playing this game and lowering the standards, and I don't subscribe to that magazine. By the time you've leveled a tank all the way to 80, there is no excuse for "learning." You're not "learning." You've had 80 levels of "learning." Learning is over, now it's time to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Nope. Every time there's a new level cap, everyone wants to keep playing this game and lowering the standards, and I don't subscribe to that magazine. By the time you've leveled a tank all the way to 80, there is no excuse for "learning." You're not "learning." You've had 80 levels of "learning." Learning is over, now it's time to play the game.

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If you're not learning something new every once in a while, even if it's just totally trivial and small, then you're just doing it to yourself. I learned something new the other day when playing SAM despite being level 80 for a while. That doesn't mean I'm bad, it just means I'm better now than I was before I learned it.

And people can keep saying "oh if you don't know stack markers by level 80, blah blah blah" but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm not saying it's fine for people to not know to get out of AoEs at level 80, so we can stop with the strawman. Maybe someone else said that, but I didn't.

No matter what you're doing in life, whether it's a skill, a hobby, a video game, etc., you can always learn something new. Thinking you have nothing left to learn is foolish and immature.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Lots of people are. That expectation right there is why people get criticized over stupid stuff. And with each new level cap there's new skills and new rotations to learn, etc.

If you think people have nothing left to learn at level cap, you're the one who needs to learn something.

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What exactly are you learning at a level 80 roulette dungeon? Your 1-2-3 combo? Learning to use cds? Maybe learning how to count the number of adds on screen to determine whether or not you should aoe instead of single target? Regardless of a new level cap and skills, you should know the basics especially after leveling the job to the level cap.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

If you're not learning something new every once in a while, even if it's just totally trivial and small, then you're just doing it to yourself. I learned something new the other day when playing SAM despite being level 80 for a while. That doesn't mean I'm bad, it just means I'm better now than I was before I learned it.

And people can keep saying "oh if you don't know stack markers by level 80, blah blah blah" but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm not saying it's fine for people to not know to get out of AoEs at level 80, so we can stop with the strawman. Maybe someone else said that, but I didn't.

No matter what you're doing in life, whether it's a skill, a hobby, a video game, etc., you can always learn something new. Thinking you have nothing left to learn is foolish and immature.

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Putting aside the fact that there's no reason for me to believe you have much skill with Samurai beyond "I was at lvl80 for a while," mastery tricks for a DPS is quite another beast compared to the simple act of performing your role in a MSQ dungeon as a tank. Trying to pretend that "I learned something new about Samurai" is somehow the same thing as "I'm capable enough of a tank to do double pulls and use cooldowns" is hilariously ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst. At level 80, there is no excuse for a tank to struggle with their basic responsibility in simple dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I accept your surrender!

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I love the world we live in where expecting basic competency is elitism, but calling people names isn't toxic.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I love the world we live in where expecting basic competency is elitism, but calling people names isn't toxic.

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Ironically, in 6.0 this guy will be back here saying "They're not even level 90 so they're still learning!" Then we get to move the goalposts again so lazy people can be bad for longer without ever getting their butts in gear.

So, genuine question. I see a lot of people saying that it's fine to single pull because pulling more packs is more effort, but is that really true? You're still doing the same thing regardless of enemy number; DPS do their AOE rotation and stay out of the bad, tanks rotate cooldowns and do their rotation, and healers cycle through oGCD heals, then fill the gaps with GCD heals and DPS until oGCDs come back. The only thing that ever changes based on pack size is the speed at which the healer cycles through their oGCDs, right? If you don't have the DPS to kill the enemies then you'll wipe eventually, but barring very particular pulls where you can go above 2 packs of hard hitting enemies (Bardam's Mettle, Doma Castle. Holminster, either Anyder) this has to be extraordinarily slow to happen. This might come across as a leading question but I'm legitimately curious - what changes when you pull more than one pack in terms of intensity?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Hahah every time you try and agree with someone it sounds like you're trying to contradict them.
I'm not gonna lie, I started at your response to me for a good long while trying to figure out what to make of it.

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Question, is it okay to vote kick someone for wanting to rush if the group wishes to take their time?

I do feel most people would agree that it is a valid reason to remove someone. I also agree that it is a valid reason to remove someone, since at the core how they play differs from the overall group. Same could be said if a person wants to take it slower and the group wants to go quicker.

The reason behind why I think does not matter since by ib large that probably differs greatly from person to person.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

I wonder what the level cap is right now and what specific piece of content is being discussed. Regardless, I could easily change my piece to "level 70-80 dungeons" and the premise would still be the same, but nah, continue to name call when you don't have anything of substance to say.

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I mean, you can equate level 80 content with roulettes all you want if that's what makes you right, lmao. I'm not wasting my daily posts on here arguing about semantics. And if you're so sensitive that you think "you're a card" is name calling, I'm amazed you can function while being so triggered all the time. I had things of substance to say, until you pretended I said things I didn't in order to have a reason to argue with me. The OP used level 80 roulette as an anecdote, we're not forced to discuss that only. Especially since I'm somehow the only one held to that standard when others can trash on me all day and not even use the word roulette. But it's okay. I understand how you play. Continue, I'll just watch you fight yourself.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I mean, you can equate level 80 content with roulettes all you want if that's what makes you right, lmao. I'm not wasting my daily posts on here arguing about semantics. And if you're so sensitive that you think "you're a card" is name calling, I'm amazed you can function while being so triggered all the time. I had things of substance to say, until you pretended I said things I didn't in order to have a reason to argue with me. The OP used level 80 roulette as an anecdote, we're not forced to discuss that only. Especially since I'm somehow the only one held to that standard when others can trash on me all day and not even use the word roulette. But it's okay. I understand how you play. Continue, I'll just watch you fight yourself.

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Well, the only other lvl 80 content is ex fights, and no one should be learning their jobs in those, and savage/ultimate, which yeah....

Dungeons and normal raids are in roulettes, as are the trials. Using semantics to say you weren't talking about roulettes doesn't help you.

You act like we're all the elitists but the only one being toxic is you.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Ironically, in 6.0 this guy will be back here saying "They're not even level 90 so they're still learning!" Then we get to move the goalposts again so lazy people can be bad for longer without ever getting their butts in gear.

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That was uncalled for on his part, but I also think you two are being fairly small minded. I don’t expect a lot out of the level 80 roulette minus each person having a basic understanding of their class. I certainly don’t expect a tank to pull two to four groups of adds just because I’m selfish enough to push my own time constraints on them and want to clear stuff at a faster pace. If they fail to hold aggro on one group (which I’ve seen countless times, eat your bloody ‘grits’) then I could see possibly coaching and if all else fails booting them.

But I’m not going to expect random people to fit in the same ability category as the group of players I’ve built around myself as friends who can push content.

I get it. It annoys the hell out of me when you’re in a static/current group working to push content and you have that one to two players who say there’s no reason to move out of aoe or follow mechanics. By all means, they need to either get better or get booted. But expecting a player in a roulette to do wall to wall pulls simply because you want to complete a dungeon five minutes faster is the same thing as them not attempting to get better at the game.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

So, genuine question. I see a lot of people saying that it's fine to single pull because pulling more packs is more effort, but is that really true? You're still doing the same thing regardless of enemy number; DPS do their AOE rotation and stay out of the bad, tanks rotate cooldowns and do their rotation, and healers cycle through oGCD heals, then fill the gaps with GCD heals and DPS until oGCDs come back. The only thing that ever changes based on pack size is the speed at which the healer cycles through their oGCDs, right? If you don't have the DPS to kill the enemies then you'll wipe eventually, but barring very particular pulls where you can go above 2 packs of hard hitting enemies (Bardam's Mettle, Doma Castle. Holminster, either Anyder) this has to be extraordinarily slow to happen. This might come across as a leading question but I'm legitimately curious - what changes when you pull more than one pack in terms of intensity?

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In the strictest sense more packs due require more effort and attention because for single pulls one barely has to do much of anything to perform their role.

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Originally Posted by Awha

In the strictest sense more packs due require more effort and attention because for single pulls one barely has to do much of anything to perform their role.

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Its actually less buttons for me to aoe. I imagine that's the case for most jobs.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I mean, you can equate level 80 content with roulettes all you want if that's what makes you right, lmao.

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??????????????????

Do you not have expert roulette unlocked or something?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

And if you're so sensitive that you think "you're a card" is name calling, I'm amazed you can function while being so triggered all the time. I had things of substance to say, until you pretended I said things I didn't in order to have a reason to argue with me.

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I've seen your other garbage posts here, several of which do resort to actual name calling. That's ok though, continue to post garbage for everyone to see.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

The OP used level 80 roulette as an anecdote, we're not forced to discuss that only. Especially since I'm somehow the only one held to that standard when others can trash on me all day and not even use the word roulette. But it's okay. I understand how you play. Continue, I'll just watch you fight yourself.

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Dude, you're trying to convince others that people are still "learning" at level cap. All I asked you is what exactly are you learning as a tank at level cap. You couldn't answer and gave some nonsense reply. Not to mention, how is single pulling teaching you anything?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You act like we're all the elitists but the only one being toxic is you.

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The "no u" argument? Took you long enough.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

I've seen your other garbage posts here

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Aw that's cute, you must really like me. That explains a lot.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

I certainly don’t expect a tank to pull two to four groups of adds just because I’m selfish enough to push my own time constraints on them and want to clear stuff at a faster pace.

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It's got nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with basic competence. If anything, I would argue the selfish ones are the ones who refuse to do the bare minimum by pulling two packs (there is not a single level 80 dungeon in this game where it even lets you pull 4 packs at a time) and using defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Its actually less buttons for me to aoe. I imagine that's the case for most jobs.

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It is. As a GNB it takes my rotation down to two buttons, instead of three between bursts. It does negate a little of my defensive buff due to the brutal shell proc not being part of it, but it’s doable. Anything more than two groups at a time (if you’re not a DRK) seems like more effort than it’s worth, though. Burns thru CDs faster because most healers/dps cant heal/burn adds to keep up.

Unless you get that black mage that’s was born with a staff in their hand, in which case, by the second rotation things are already burning all around you.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

It's got nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with basic competence. If anything, I would argue the selfish ones are the ones who refuse to do the bare minimum by pulling two packs (there is not a single level 80 dungeon in this game where it even lets you pull 4 packs at a time) and using defensive cooldowns.

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But it is. The tutorial crap literally teaches a pack at a time. Meaning that’s the base standard for the game. I got it, some people’s abilities far outweigh others. That’s my chief complaint here with the longer GCD. Even with weaving, it’s nowhere near the level of intensity you see in other games within the genre.

To demand more than that, which is well within the reach of (at least I’d like to believe) of most players may not be for everyone. When queuing up for a group with randoms, we need to accept that fact as much as they need to expect others will want them to be better than baseline.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

But it is. The tutorial crap literally teaches a pack at a time. Meaning that’s the base standard for the game. I got it, some people’s abilities far outweigh others. That’s my chief complaint here with the longer GCD. Even with weaving, it’s nowhere near the level of intensity you see in other games within the genre.

To demand more than that, which is well within the reach of (at least I’d like to believe) of most players may not be for everyone. When queuing up for a group with randoms, we need to accept that fact as much as they need to expect others will want them to be better than baseline.

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The problem with basing it off the guildhest is that that particular one is valid at... Lvl 10, when you have no real AoEs and a lack of ogcd healing and defensive cool downs.

There is also a lvl 40 guildhest which tells you everything needs to die at the same time. And how do you do that? The game is implying that for 5 mobs to die at once, you would be using AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

But it is. The tutorial crap literally teaches a pack at a time. Meaning that’s the base standard for the game. I got it, some people’s abilities far outweigh others. That’s my chief complaint here with the longer GCD. Even with weaving, it’s nowhere near the level of intensity you see in other games within the genre.

To demand more than that, which is well within the reach of (at least I’d like to believe) of most players may not be for everyone. When queuing up for a group with randoms, we need to accept that fact as much as they need to expect others will want them to be better than baseline.

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This idea in your head that the way you're told to play as a lvl10 in a tutorial duty is the way you should be playing at lvl80 is hilariously naive.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Its actually less buttons for me to aoe. I imagine that's the case for most jobs.

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By effort I do not just mean buttons. In a single pull a tank can legit hit their AoE once or twice and tab out. No need to really avoid aoe damage, pop cooldowns hell even look at the screen.

I do not agree with single pulls, because they are boring as hell. Though in the grand scheme of effort put into single or larger pulls I would say single pulls due require far less effort and also could be done quicker with a melee dps probably.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This idea in your head that the way you're told to play as a lvl10 in a tutorial duty is the way you should be playing at lvl80 is hilariously naive.

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But that’s the baseline the game gives. We’re not talking about someone pulling a group at a time, maintaining threat, and that pull going fine. We’re talking about speed runs, completing content as fast as possible. While I agree it’s distressing to see how low the bar is set for the community in this game, using the LFG tool and expecting the best is like going to the DMV and expecting to be complete in less than 30 minutes. It won’t happen.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

But that’s the baseline the game gives. We’re not talking about someone pulling a group at a time, maintaining threat, and that pull going fine. We’re talking about speed runs, completing content as fast as possible. While I agree it’s distressing to see how low the bar is set for the community in this game, using the LFG tool and expecting the best is like going to the DMV and expecting to be complete in less than 30 minutes. It won’t happen.

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No, that's the baseline the game gives for like lvl10. lmao.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

No, that's the baseline the game gives for like lvl10. lmao.

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Then why don’t the developers make the groups larger instead of separate? If they weren’t separate then it would totally nix the problem. Yet every game does this. Because one group at a time is the baseline difficulty for the game, no matter how silly that is for the average player. I honestly don’t think you’re in the wrong, wanting people to be better at the game. I also don’t think pulling 2 groups together is ridiculously demanding, but to others it might be.

Going into a randomized group, we accept that risk as much as someone accepts the risk they may get a player who wants to complete the content faster than normal. Either way, I don’t think booting them right away is the right answer. And I don’t think the individual receiving constructive criticism should take it like a personal insult. But I also don’t think we should expect much from random people because much like life, it’s a mixed bag.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

Then why don’t the developers make the groups larger instead of separate? If they weren’t separate then it would totally nix the problem. Yet every game does this. Because one group at a time is the baseline difficulty for the game, no matter how silly that is for the average player. I honestly don’t think you’re in the wrong, wanting people to be better at the game. I also don’t think pulling 2 groups together is ridiculously demanding, but to others it might be.

Going into a randomized group, we accept that risk as much as someone accepts the risk they may get a player who wants to complete the content faster than normal. Either way, I don’t think booting them right away is the right answer. And I don’t think the individual receiving constructive criticism should take it like a personal insult. But I also don’t think we should expect much from random people because much like life, it’s a mixed bag.

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After running min item level dungeons with some of my friends i really struggle to think that one pack is the baseline, even with the notorious ones like doma castle we were able to double or more pull each time and the healer still spent most of their casts casting dps and not healing. If the baseline is one pack i would expect one pack to pose a threat to people with the worst gear possible for that dungeon, which outside of the colossus before the first boss in doma, thats simply not the case.
LINK

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Competency from all 4 players.

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Funnily enough it doesn't even take that - as long as the tank and healer are alive and breathing you can double pull most everything as a bare minimum. You won't be cruising through Stone Vigil or doing the super pull at the end of Anamnesis, but you can probably do two packs as long as half your party is at least at the median skill level.

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Originally Posted by Awha

In the strictest sense more packs due require more effort and attention because for single pulls one barely has to do much of anything to perform their role.

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That's arguably true, for sure, though I (like to) believe people put in a basic amount of effort regardless of pack number. You can just zone out and lightly tap buttons every five seconds if you're single pulling, but I think most people would agree that's in poor taste to do with three other people.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

After running min item level dungeons with some of my friends i really struggle to think that one pack is the baseline, even with the notorious ones like doma castle we were able to double or more pull each time and the healer still spent most of their casts casting dps and not healing. If the baseline is one pack i would expect one pack to pose a threat to people with the worst gear possible for that dungeon, which outside of the colossus before the first boss in doma, thats simply not the case.
LINK

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That’s the problem with the mass appeal of MMOs these days. The lowered standard of what the baseline could be. Unfortunately, despite whatever one thinks about the game, WoW opened the MMO door to a lot of people that probably struggled in single player games on the lowest difficulty levels. In order to reach a wider audience (therefore generating more profit) developers have approached the LFG being catered to the lowest common denominator.

It’s why overland content (for the most part outside of S/S+ rank hunts) is a snooze fest. It’s why things like hard, savage, extreme, mythic, legendary game content exist. Diving into the very bottom of that pile and expecting output at a higher level is a lesson in futility. And I get where you’re coming from. I wish I could back to the days where the majority of people were willing to put in the work to actually be competent in the games they play. Where they took pride in their effectiveness and the effort invested. But like all things that attempt to reach a wide audience, the quality suffers.

Which is silly because in order for a game to be considered ‘profitable’ (unless you invest a level of equity like SWTOR or Star Citizen) you only need a solid 300k subscribers. But those numbers don’t compare to the ‘WoW phenom’ which is considered the standard these days instead of the fluke it was.

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Originally Posted by Raynn

Which is silly because in order for a game to be considered ‘profitable’ (unless you invest a level of equity like SWTOR or Star Citizen) you only need a solid 300k subscribers. But those numbers don’t compare to the ‘WoW phenom’ which is considered the standard these days instead of the fluke it was.

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To be fair, in the case of FFXIV specifically I suspect Square Enix has a very high standard given the value they place upon the Final Fantasy brand. I don't have any evidence of this but I suspect the higher-ups at the very least expect the game to be in roughly the same ballpark as WoW subscriber wise, or perhaps just in line with the closest competition in Japan.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

To be fair, in the case of FFXIV specifically I suspect Square Enix has a very high standard given the value they place upon the Final Fantasy brand. I don't have any evidence of this but I suspect the higher-ups at the very least expect the game to be in roughly the same ballpark as WoW subscriber wise, or perhaps just in line with the closest competition in Japan.

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Fair point, especially when looking at the Asia market. The numbers that lineage and BDO get in that area are significant as well.

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.

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This is true in some regard as well. It’s one of the reasons it’s always confused me more developers don’t focus on community stuff like housing, events, ect. That’s fairly easy content to provide when compared to raid/trial mechanics and it keeps people playing.

Wildstar tried the ‘hardcore’ group push and it didn’t work out to well, despite being a fairly nice game (minus the 40 man, but then I think anything over 15-20 players is stupid as hell).

I also don’t think casuals should come in expecting to be carried thru harder content or whine about not having a certain item or mount. But the random LFG group, I don’t expect perfection. It’s also why I usually try to run with two to three friends when doing dailies roulettes if I’m pressed for time.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.

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Wasn't Wildstar suppose to be the anti casual MMO that would be for all the Hardcore players?

Edit:Raynn beat me too it on this one

It's not really "hardcore" to do big pulls, though. In most dungeons I run as a DPS or Healer, the tank will always do big pulls (single pulling tanks being a minority and often adjust to big pulls when asked to). Shadowbringers made tanks extremely easy to play and gave some Jobs gained new AoE skills to use to make AoEing less obnoxious (especially for melee DPS, now that TP is gone).

Most don't expect you to be raid ready, either. The most I really expect out of anyone is to at least learn how to play their Job decently (no free-styling or doing whatever this DRG I got in E6N did: True Thrust > Disembowel and then Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust spam until Disembowel wore off... never did a full single target OR AoE rotation and often had broken combos).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's not really "hardcore" to do big pulls, though. In most dungeons I run as a DPS or Healer, the tank will always do big pulls (single pulling tanks being a minority and often adjust to big pulls when asked to). Shadowbringers made tanks extremely easy to play and gave some Jobs gained new AoE skills to use to make AoEing less obnoxious (especially for melee DPS, now that TP is gone).

Most don't expect you to be raid ready, either. The most I really expect out of anyone is to at least learn how to play their Job decently (no free-styling or doing whatever this DRG I got in E6N did: True Thrust > Disembowel and then Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust spam until Disembowel wore off... never did a full single target OR AoE rotation and often had broken combos).

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But that all depends on the player. I’ve seen some people who have a hard time tanking/healing/killing a small three pack group. For them, larger pulls could be disastrous, as hard as that is to believe. But that’s why the LFG should never be the place to expect people to not be window lickers. That’s the ‘accessible’ content. Now if one of those individuals were in an extreme static....well feel free to boot them into next week if they can’t adapt.

Yes, it depends on the player. However if someone is having legitimate trouble with just three mobs (in killing, healing or tanking) in level 80 content, then the problem lies with the player and it's something they should have fixed levelling up from 15-80 (or 70-80).

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

Funnily enough it doesn't even take that - as long as the tank and healer are alive and breathing you can double pull most everything as a bare minimum. You won't be cruising through Stone Vigil or doing the super pull at the end of Anamnesis, but you can probably do two packs as long as half your party is at least at the median skill level.



That's arguably true, for sure, though I (like to) believe people put in a basic amount of effort regardless of pack number. You can just zone out and lightly tap buttons every five seconds if you're single pulling, but I think most people would agree that's in poor taste to do with three other people.

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To be honest, I am not sure. Thougb I do agree it is in poor taste, but I think for many it depends on how one frames why someone is doing single pulls. I do not think the why matters but for some it does.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Tanking is the same whether you pull 1 pack or 3 packs. Tank stance on, AOE, use cooldown. Besides, tanks don't start level 80, you should have enough practice by that point.

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No way man. There's a big difference in how you use your cooldowns depending on if you're saving them for the next pack, or chugging through them all cuz the miniboss is next and those are always easier to tank than mobs.
And you're right, tanks don't start at 80. But I've read more than enough posts on this forum about people grumbling about slow pulls in low level duties to know that doesn't really make a difference. When I was learning I was expected to PERFORM in ARR content and people would literally scold and mock me if I used grit.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

No, I'm trying to say the bar is so low you don't need to be a tank master to achieve a large pull, so double pulling also is not an issue. If you are learning to tank, the best thing to do is to push your boundaries and not wallow in your comfort zone. The worst that can happen is you die, which is not a big deal, and you'll have learned something, pulling one pack because you're learning (especially if you're level 50+) is absolutely a detrimental attitude for yourself

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Is there really no conceivable situation where someone might still pull less?
Perhaps they just ran this duty, and KNOW they can't manage more mobs, but still haven't levelled past it and are running it again.
Perhaps they see the healer is undergeared and pull slower. I know I've been there and still had a DPS still gets unhappy about the pace.
Perhaps they fucked up and actually need to slow down. Maybe they hit too many cooldowns before or hit one on accident and don't have the stuff to take another big pull.
Perhaps some people just don't learn by that trial by fire method and they want to ease into things with a more measured approach.
Yes, learning and pushing yourself are important, but that doesn't mean you're only option is big pulls.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

No way man. There's a big difference in how you use your cooldowns depending on if you're saving them for the next pack, or chugging through them all cuz the miniboss is next and those are always easier to tank than mobs.
And you're right, tanks don't start at 80. But I've read more than enough posts on this forum about people grumbling about slow pulls in low level duties to know that doesn't really make a difference. When I was learning I was expected to PERFORM in ARR content and people would literally scold and mock me if I used grit.

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I don't necessarily know about this - given the vast majority of dungeons in this game go 2 packs -> wall -> 2 packs -> boss you can kind of just do the same rotation of cooldowns regardless of what's happening. By the time most tanks have used all their cooldowns they probably have their shorter cooldowns coming back online, and in the worst case have their short, filler cooldown to kill time. Also, are you talking about pre-ShB, because if people were shouting at you for using grit in ARR content when it's the current tank stance I'd be absolutely baffled.

As for your other point, I think you and a lot of other people are conflating mega pulls with double pulls (I'd absolutely agree that a non-experienced tank or healer can take some of the massive pulls slower just in case). I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

As for your other point, I think you and a lot of other people are conflating mega pulls with double pulls (I'd absolutely agree that a non-experienced tank or healer can take some of the massive pulls slower just in case). I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

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Perhaps you're right.
I (and many others) might be conflating double and mega pulls.
I feel like that's part of what's leading to so much disagreement.
And I'm def with you on all this

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

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I don't agree that it's about learning while at level 80. Like I said, it's about playstyle preference. Nothing in the game says you have to pull more than necessary in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem with basing it off the guildhest is that that particular one is valid at... Lvl 10, when you have no real AoEs and a lack of ogcd healing and defensive cool downs.

There is also a lvl 40 guildhest which tells you everything needs to die at the same time. And how do you do that? The game is implying that for 5 mobs to die at once, you would be using AoEs.

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You're talking about using AOE, not doing multiple pulls.

There is no scenario in the game that needs you to pull more than one pack in a dungeon.