The general player base needs to improve

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Okay let's cut it with the PvP talks. Anyone that played PvP on other games will easely tell you XIV's PvP might be the worst on the market right now. No amount of time or playing it well makes it a good PvP experience.

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Yeah, it's terrible now, but. . .

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

WoW combat system/engine stuff

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That's an engine/netcode level difference between the two games, though, and yes, even after having not played WoW for the better part of the past 4-5 years, I can still vividly remember how much more fluid the combat is there compared to this game. This game has improved on that aspect, though, but for players new here that have experience with WoW...it's a big change. What helped me is that going from caster there (ele shaman) to caster here (THM/BLM) was that I already had the preconceived notion I'd be casting slow but hitting hard. That doesn't apply to everything, though; going from something like a combat rogue or fury warrior to any of the starter melee here...yeouch.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Yeah, it's terrible now, but. . .

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I get that it was better before. I played it before. But even if it was better, it's still was nowhere close to be considered good. Serviceable at best and even then, I am being generous.

Your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

even if the chat was disabled they are very adamant to not show Damage debt or healed or any number in normal content, with pvp theres a different mentality, with what you suggested you could have people throw out names of someone who didn't know what to do and have them shunned from future parties, unless they could make it truly anonymous yet informative or similar to the record ready check, but again with that could cause players to abuse someone D:

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We already have all the tools (would they be allowed by the ToS or not) to do everything you said:
- We can check people's performances live with third party softwares.
- We can check their history in great details on a third party website.
- We can kick pretty much anyone by simply calling the "differences in playstyle" excuse.
- We can remove anyone from a PF without any kind of justification.
- We have a tool showing every recent players we played with, which allows for easy black listing.
- We have Stone Sky Sea and Stormblood's equivalent that can be used without any kind of third party tools to roughly check someone's performances.

It'd be absurd to think that giving the players some metrics about a run they just did would open the floodgates for shunning and name shaming all over the place. It'd most likely not change anything, or at least it won't be worse that what we have now. If you do a random DF dungeon and get promped such a window, chances are people will forget about it a few seconds after closing it. Exacly like any Frontlines game.

Besides, the stance we're hearing from SE is mostly in regards to inbuilt DPS meters. Otherwise they wouldn't have given us these tables we see at the end of a PvP game to begin with. Also, I don't know why you think that showing someone's performances in PvP is different than doing it in PvE. You can do some shunning and name shaming regardless, which would also impact them in PvE.

Keep in mind that showing performances at the end of a run doesn't mean allowing witch hunting, name shaming and discrimination more than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

He was complained about because he's miles harder than any story fight preceding him. Nidhogg had an add phase with 3 mobs, two stationary and one mobile with a very slow attack. Shin has 12 mobs interspersed with meteor drops that would kill you at i290 if you weren't exactly on the edge, as well as being surrounded by a pit. The chest beasting "it's not hard" crowd get annoying in this game.

If anything Shinryu hard is stupid because they set the bounds of what you can do in casual content too early. They legitimately can't make anything harder than him at recommended ilvl without starting to get into ex-level content. He kind of ruined Byakko hard because of this; he's actually much easier than Shin.

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Sigh.

Maybe if the story prepared for the sudden spike—and they actually put ilvl restrictions on leveling content so people couldn't enter Shinryu in Shire gear—things wouldn't have been an issue. Granted, my only problems with Shinryu were the sheer amount of idiots who didn't care to respect his mechanics and kept rushing in, treating him like any other story mode content. It's almost like everything else lets them get away with that.

They could have easily kept Byakko around Shinryu's level, but this game has no concept of scaling difficulty. Hence why we see sudden spikes in random directions.

I think the last time I ever touched Shinryu normal, a friend asked me to help an FC mate get a clear. . .

I am, at this point, half-awake and thinking "eh, how does that fight even go again?" but I agreed to help.

Cleared, no wipes, I died once due to nearly dozing off again at the part the floor ices over. . . That fight was not hard if it can essentially be done blind and half-awake.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I think the last time I ever touched Shinryu normal, a friend asked me to help an FC mate get a clear. . .

I am, at this point, half-awake and thinking "eh, how does that fight even go again?" but I agreed to help.

Cleared, no wipes, I died once due to nearly dozing off again at the part the floor ices over. . . That fight was not hard if it can essentially be done blind and half-awake.

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No, you just got in with the right party. A single MCH isn't going to make or break any trial.

Perhaps not, but I said that to point out that it was possible to do without knowing/remembering any mechanics prior, and not even being fully awake or aware.

It was a mashup of primal mechanics we've seen previously. Tell me how that's hard for anyone to deal with?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I don't think you know what atypical means >.>

Mo one is suggesting you need perfect rotations and melds, merely that you need to actually be doing something. I can't think of any normal mode trial where at least two players (as long as it isn't both tanks/healers) could sit down and not do anything that we still couldn't cleae through DF.

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You are right, I used atypical wrong. I'll go edit that right now. MO one should ever make such mistakes.:) { I am just teasing. }

We agree that trying and having fun is perfectly fine for normal mode things then. I still feel a lot of the post in these threads do imply or outright state you do need strong skill in rotations and melds to be anything other than lazy or garbage at this game and I will not agree with that.

I don't understand the argument that "Shinryu NM was harder than everything before so [random excuse]". People use it as a justification for numerous wipes or bad performance. If this was the case than how did people like myself, who had never done Extremes or Savages before Shinryu, clear him with no issue? Most of the mechanics he has are either a repeat of an old mechanic, or straightfoward. The only mechanic I ever had issue with was (and still is) Earth Breath, and only because I forget how large the cone AoE is.

Shinryu is an easy fight. All you have to do is play with some competence.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

A lot of people that said it was bad largely never even tried it, rather they just accepted word of mouth about it.

It's also popular thought that the game engine/gameplay isn't suited for it, and that's just not true. It could be better, yes. Hell, it WAS better before Stormblood, but if it wasn't suited for it, they wouldn't have added it.

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1) most people have tried FFXIV PVP, see that it is awfully bad and never put a foot in such activities again.
2) The game engine and gameplay isn't suited for it (the holy trinity doesn't work in PVP and FFXIV is all about it, and the frequency at witch the server tally the player's movement isn't high enough to provide for smooth gameplay).
3) They added PVP because the most popular games currently are all PVP games that have pro leagues (just take a look at twitch and the most popular games), not because the gameplay is suited for it. It is a (poor) marketing choice (somebody at SE seemingly didn't get the memo that if you're going to have pvp in your game you also need to have a relevant gameplay tied to it).

I mean, FFXIV have some strong selling points (mostly that it is very pretty, the CS are decent and the immersion in the areas is quite good), but PVP isn't one of those.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

Where do you draw the line on improving, though? The definition of 'bad' is extremely subjective. I know I struggle hard with Rabanastre, but that's because it has some of the absolute worst, most deceiving visual queues in the game on top of stupid amounts of massive AoE spam leaving no room for mistakes. It's one of the few examples that I can think of where FFXIV tries way too hard to be difficult, missing the mark on a fair challenge completely. The player can't be blamed for that.
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I still die on Hashbrowns sometimes when the earthquake patches start piling up, usually right as he does his flaming hand thing! I also seem to die to sudden aoe ground effects if I am in the middle of them such as Susano circles or very wide cone effects. I start to run as soon as I see them but, bam....dead.

I only had ARR and played for about a month before Stormblood so I spent the first week of access playing Red Mage through Heavensward. My second week was in Stormblood so I reached Shinyru when it was still very new. It took a play session to finally pass him to continue the story. All of his recycled mechanics were new to most of us and we were also in our spiffy 290 class gear. He was a leap in difficulty from what we had experienced up till then. I had a lot of fun learning and beating him.

The most fun I had in a long time was a few weeks ago when 4.2 dropped. I decided to go in totally blind and as a tank (I don't tank much) to Hell's Lid and Continuum. My parties did well and it was a blast having to reason the best approach to each mechanic on the fly. :) I also played the Sigmascape and Byakko as dps the same way with the same results.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

1) most people have tried FFXIV PVP, see that it is awfully bad and never put a foot in such activities again.
2) The game engine and gameplay isn't suited for it (the holy trinity doesn't work in PVP and FFXIV is all about it, and the frequency at witch the server tally the player's movement isn't high enough to provide for smooth gameplay).
3) They added PVP because the most popular games currently are all PVP games that have pro leagues (just take a look at twitch and the most popular games), not because the gameplay is suited for it. It is a (poor) marketing choice (somebody at SE seemingly didn't get the memo that if you're going to have pvp in your game you also need to have a relevant gameplay tied to it).

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1. Most people really have no idea what they're doing in there, and that's even after the 4.0 overhaul.
2. Why then was there a dedicated community formed around it for 4 years until now? I mean if it were so ill suited, SE must be some kind of idiot savant for pulling it off in a workable fashion before.
3. They added it because fans wanted it bad enough. . . You know, like housing, glamours, Eternal Bond, trading primal tokens for mounts (THAT idea was even born on the forums), and many other features the game didn't start with.

In the interest of time and not inciting anyone by daring to talk about XIV's red-headed stepchild, please go read the PvP forums. Our exchange just now, and wherever it might go from there has been discussed plenty of times. Let's not upset anyone here in General Discussion.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

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Everything is easy and you can afk whenever you want and still succeed but only if the rest of the party know what to do and perform well.
Unless all your party was perfoming bad/average (eating mechanics...)and still win you can't say its easy just because you didn't have trouble.
A lot of people seem to forget something about mmo, you can play like a god and fail because the rest of the team is bad and play horrible and still win because the rest know what to do.
Shinryu with a bunch of first timer might be a bit troublesome.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

From guildhests to Savage content, I strive to not just be capable of doing it, but doing it well. If something needs to be learned or be mindful of, I take the steps to know it. I PRACTICE: If I'm good at it, then I want to stay sharp. If I'm not, I want to get better.

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This. This times a hundred. Thousand. Million. Infinity. This is the only thing I really ask of my static, and the only thing I ask of myself. The drive to improve, whether or not one can already be considered "good" is IMO better than any dps a person currently has.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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the main reason as to why PVP and PVE would be different is due to the lack of feedback you get the numbers in that have a different style to them to show what you have done, while in normal PVE the feedback you get is the exp the items etc, not only this, but theres no gate with DPS in PvP so showing a numbers tends to be ineffectual since you could have someone guarding say the generator in Rival wings and may not attack anyone, to someone dealing a lot of damage to a tower outside of a mech meaning the numbers you tend to get are worthless while in pve if you went to do a dungeon you could see someone didn't know how to play there job complain and then reports could get thrown and it becomes a mess.

also SSS is not a very good tool to measure DPS, i have wanted a parcer in the game so i can improve on my ps4 but i have seen and been in parties where i got hounded for any logs regardless to the fact i cleared the content multiple times putting it in the game could make it the norm. it won't make it allowed it would just make it easier for people to do so.

I've been half joking since Rabanastre's release that the raid is stuck in an eternal "week one". Almost every run sees a wipe on Mateus and/or Hashmal multiple times with an occasional Rofocale wipe due to several people standing on a circle and not clicking it. I'm honestly dreading the second installment in the raid series if it's still this bad. Also I don't know how it could get worse, but ever since the weekly gear lockout was lifted, the wipes, trolls, vote abandons, and verbal onslaught in chat has quadrupled. :\

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Sigh.

Maybe if the story prepared for the sudden spike—.

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They could have done that in Sigma Normal rather than story mode. It makes no sense Shin is harder than Kefka and a longer fight to boot. It makes no sense that the third boss of the new sigmascape is harder than Kefka ffs. It's obvious they design fights based on what they think is cool, and then when they are all done, half-ass balancing. Like the poster said about Rab being in day one, its only because hashmal and to a lesser extend mateus are much tougher than ardath and rofocale, yet both are the first two fights instead of the last one.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I think the last time I ever touched Shinryu normal, a friend asked me to help an FC mate get a clear. . .

I am, at this point, half-awake and thinking "eh, how does that fight even go again?" but I agreed to help.

Cleared, no wipes, I died once due to nearly dozing off again at the part the floor ices over. . . That fight was not hard if it can essentially be done blind and half-awake.

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grats, you did it with a plus 50 or more ilvl difference than when it released, along with players (especially healers) who do know every single mechanic. If you used MCH, you also did it with one of the least penalized jobs in term of adapting to movement mechanics in this game. Only thing easier is tanking it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

grats, you did it with a plus 50 or more ilvl difference than when it released, along with players (especially healers) who do know every single mechanic. If you used MCH, you also did it with one of the least penalized jobs in term of adapting to movement mechanics in this game. Only thing easier is tanking it.

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For someone who spends so much time and energy disparaging raiders for their toxicity you sure are disgustingly rude and toxic yourself.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

For someone who spends so much time and energy disparaging raiders for their toxicity you sure are disgustingly rude and toxic yourself.

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what is rude about it? He's saying its easy, while ignoring the fact that he has 50 more ilvls he did when it first came out, and that both MCH and BRD are jobs that can react to any movement mechanics with almost zero penalty. It's different if you are a BLM who is still getting used to his new toolset and doesn't know the exact safe spots to turret in to avoid moving. And keep in mind if your healers keep sliding off the edge or are too slow to react to mechanics, its a lot harder than if he is slow to do so, because he can be left on the floor with no real danger of a wipe. You think that might factor in for that, or is it just popular to dislike me?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

what is rude about it? He's saying its easy, while ignoring the fact that he has 50 more ilvls he did when it first came out, and that both MCH and BRD are jobs that can react to any movement mechanics with almost zero penalty. And keep in mind if your healers keep sliding off the edge or are too slow to react to mechanics, its a lot harder than if he is slow to do so, because he can be left on the floor with no real danger of a wipe. You think that might factor in for that, or is it just popular to dislike me?

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And if I would tell you I did it sub 290 as WAR when I was first leveling on the first week of SB release? Took only 4 pulls back then.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

what is rude about it? He's saying its easy, while ignoring the fact that he has 50 more ilvls he did when it first came out, and that both MCH and BRD are jobs that can react to any movement mechanics with almost zero penalty. And keep in mind if your healers keep sliding off the edge or are too slow to react to mechanics, its a lot harder than if he is slow to do so, because he can be left on the floor with no real danger of a wipe. You think that might factor in for that, or is it just popular to dislike me?

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People cleared it just fine when it was fresh with a sub 290 item level...I was one of them. Took like, 3-4 pulls. Where do you think all these people in your experts/raids/Ex primals and such came from? They didn't just appear from thin air.

This was actually 2 days after I cleared it, in Stormblood's first week, so I maybe had 1 or 2 i300 dungeon pieces.

Also you're not implying gear = skill, are you? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I don't understand the argument that "Shinryu NM was harder than everything before so [random excuse]". People use it as a justification for numerous wipes or bad performance. If this was the case than how did people like myself, who had never done Extremes or Savages before Shinryu, clear him with no issue? Most of the mechanics he has are either a repeat of an old mechanic, or straightfoward. The only mechanic I ever had issue with was (and still is) Earth Breath, and only because I forget how large the cone AoE is.

Shinryu is an easy fight. All you have to do is play with some competence.

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Some players are better than other players. That's how someone can go in and clear him with no issues while others struggle. For story level content, Shinryu was damn hard at launch. He hit hard, he had lots of things to keep track of, was not forgiving of mistakes, and most of the playerbase didn't know the fight. These days people largely do know the fight and there's no item level sync, so successful clear rates have gone up massively. That doesn't take away from the challenge at the time.

This is the problem with forum discussions on this stuff. The average forum goer is not the average player. Lots of players who have a significantly lower skill level and find this stuff difficult are barely represented here at all, while the high end skill level is vastly over represented. That skews things towards "everything is easy and everyone's bad!" when maybe the real answer is "it's not as easy as you think, and you're better than you think you are."

I mean, I went through two disbands before clearing Shinryu the first time, and *five* before clearing Susano Ex (which everyone around here also said was really easy), before the fights clicked and everything went swimmingly. While group quality is a factor, how fast I can learn the fight was also a factor, and that's slower than lots of other posters here. I don't tend to think I'm bad, but I do recognize lots of people I play with are better than me. But, having the perspective of repeated failure helps a lot, and if you go in and easily clear everything except Ultimate, it's easy to lose sight of all the people who aren't capable of that.

Comparatively, I was always good at Hashmal, which to this day is still wrecking lots of people. For me, it's a far easier fight than Susano is, but the collective playerbase death rate seems to suggest that isn't the case overall.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

This was actually 2 days after I cleared it, in Stormblood's first week, so I maybe had 1 or 2 i300 dungeon pieces.

Also you're not implying gear = skill, are you? :rolleyes:

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We all know gear trivializes content, especially if Ilvl isn't capped relatively low. Surviving the center aoe if you are in it, for example, or being able to last long enough with hellfire to be rescued. Shinryu was a healer's fight to win or lose, and if you had a smooth ride, chances are it was because your healers stayed up first, and your tanks second. If any of those four struggled, especially at min ilvl, it was wipe city, and for a while healers struggled till they learned the mechanics of the fight. DPS simply don't impact that fight past the add phase, and it takes 2 or 3 of them being down repeatedly to impact things.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Some players are better than other players. That's how someone can go in and clear him with no issues while others struggle. For story level content, Shinryu was damn hard at launch. He hit hard, he had lots of things to keep track of, was not forgiving of mistakes, and most of the playerbase didn't know the fight. These days people largely do know the fight and there's no item level sync, so successful clear rates have gone up massively. That doesn't take away from the challenge at the time.

This is the problem with forum discussions on this stuff. The average forum goer is not the average player. Lots of players who have a significantly lower skill level and find this stuff difficult are barely represented here at all, while the high end skill level is vastly over represented. That skews things towards "everything is easy and everyone's bad!" when maybe the real answer is "it's not as easy as you think, and you're better than you think you are."

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I get too frustrated over this for my own good. I shouldn't, but it's exactly like you said; people vary in skill and ability. What I worry about is that the people who are good will shift the game like they did with HW again, which was a lot worse for medium to lower skilled people, and even high end people too.

There is only one solution, just one:

Don't play with randoms.

Seriously, that's it.

People who don't care/take game as serious as you will not change because you say so. You're just wasting your own time here, OP.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Some players are better than other players.

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You're right. Maybe it's because I don't see myself as particularly good I just make assumptions based on my experiences.

I still don't see Shinryu NM as "hard". Teams disbanding or wiping is to be expecting, I suppose, but I just never understood how he could be labelled as hard. He doesn't have any new, deadly mechanics. He doesn't even have permadeath a la Titan or Ravana. For me, personally, I find most difficulty in this game comes from the people I'm teamed with. Then again I'm fairly casual so I haven't even touched Ultimate or Savage.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

There is only one solution, just one:

Don't play with randoms.

Seriously, that's it.

People who don't care/take game as serious as you will not change because you say so. You're just wasting your own time here, OP.

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Okay, let's play that card. Do you know what that leads to?

People are forced to join FCs and linkshells or they're just left out in the cold. It becomes the haves and have nots. It creates an opportunity for exclusion. . . And let's turn it up now! Sure we've got cross server PF now, and that's great, but as you start spending more time running things with people you know (and perhaps might befriend), you'll eventually want to server transfer. . . Oh look! Now people are leaving X server for Y server because there's a higher percentage of clears or capable players on Y server, and none of the X server FCs/LSes are letting people in. . . OH LOOK! Y server's now locked, and X is a "preferred world". . .

As someone from Goblin, that is, if you were originally from Goblin before Stormblood, you should know how hard we got hit by things like this in the past.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

There is only one solution, just one:

Don't play with randoms.

Seriously, that's it.

People who don't care/take game as serious as you will not change because you say so. You're just wasting your own time here, OP.

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Am I really wasting my time here, though? Randoms will always be a factor because at some point, you're gonna play with them. Not to mention the many new players that come into the game with little to no guidance. Shall I stick solely to my discord pals and my FC, and avoid those new players as well - thus missing the chance to help them improve?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Okay, let's play that card. Do you know what that leads to?

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I'm not saying you're wrong, but think about it. You can't change people who don't want to change. That's why you must make friends who value the game similar to yourself. Yup, convenience of PUG's are nice, but you have to accept the fact that you're going to get these people. Coming to the forums and demanding people git gud is pointless.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They could have done that in Sigma Normal rather than story mode. It makes no sense Shin is harder than Kefka and a longer fight to boot. It makes no sense that the third boss of the new sigmascape is harder than Kefka ffs. It's obvious they design fights based on what they think is cool, and then when they are all done, half-ass balancing. Like the poster said about Rab being in day one, its only because hashmal and to a lesser extend mateus are much tougher than ardath and rofocale, yet both are the first two fights instead of the last one.

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You cannot equate Shinryu and Kefka because they aim to accomplish different things. Shinryu was the conclusion to Stormblood's main story; the final boss in a single player game in a sense. Kefka, meanwhile, is simply a prelude to a much harder variation. Now I will say normal mode raids should be noticeably harder to serve as a proper difficulty curve in lieu of the absolute jokes they are. Alas, you're the one who keeps insisting they can't possible do that. So...

And I suspect they did that with Rabanastre to make it easier if people bail once obtaining their loot. Since it didn't work, and only served to render the second half of Rabanastre an absolute bore. I hope they abandon it in 4.3. Give me back Weeping City and Dun Scaith.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

grats, you did it with a plus 50 or more ilvl difference than when it released, along with players (especially healers) who do know every single mechanic. If you used MCH, you also did it with one of the least penalized jobs in term of adapting to movement mechanics in this game. Only thing easier is tanking it.

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I did it with a friend in i290. I was on DRG; she on AST. Neither of us had an issues the second lockout. The first? We got an idiot Warrior who refused to listen to any advice, died to Tidal Wave five times and claimed the healers were rude when they finally lost their patience with him. Shinryu is not a difficult fight by any means. He's simply not braindead easy.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I get too frustrated over this for my own good. I shouldn't, but it's exactly like you said; people vary in skill and ability. What I worry about is that the people who are good will shift the game like they did with HW again, which was a lot worse for medium to lower skilled people, and even high end people too.

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That only happened because the developers didn't test Gordias properly. They looked each individual mechanic with God Mode on and assumed everything flowed together. Their lack of testing the entire sequence of mechanics from start to finish is what created the mess we received. Gordias will never happen again because they already rectified the mistake which caused it. Unfortunately, it has made them incredibly cautious in all content. They even claimed The Vault was too much on leveling healers when it's among the best dungeons for precisely forcing tanks and healers to prioritize their actual role instead of being pseudo-DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You cannot equate Shinryu and Kefka because they aim to accomplish different things. Shinryu was the conclusion to Stormblood's main story; the final boss in a single player game in a sense.

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You don't conclude the story in the first act, which is what that fight ended. But you also don't make the hardest content in any game at the start, and story doesn't matter. And there's that 4.2 spoiler we all know, which makes it infuriating...if they planned on that, why on earth do shinryu so early?

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And I suspect they did that with Rabanastre to make it easier if people bail once obtaining their loot. Since it didn't work, and only served to render the second half of Rabanastre an absolute bore. I hope they abandon it in 4.3. Give me back Weeping City and Dun Scaith.

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I think they made the last two even harder, but adjusted it down when they realized yeah, its a bit too hard for most people.

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Shinryu is not a difficult fight by any means. He's simply not braindead easy.

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Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

As for Gordias, it wasn't just that. The rotations themselves were a big issue for a lot of people, because they were needlessly complex for complexity's sake. This was a big thing with DPS, and why I think DPS in general suffered such a huge gap between casuals and hardcore. We were lucky they didn't really make encounters super hard aparrt from the raids at start.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

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This right here. This post right here is an indication of your close-mindedness that I've been telling you about. News flash, Shinryu normal isn't a difficult fight. Deltascape was the very FIRST savage I've ever tried. I didn't use a guide, and I was a DRK when I first fought him - pretty sure some members remember when I talked about DRK and the whole argument about not using Living Dead and stance dancing. I didn't do any of that. By definition, I was very much a casual player. It took me quite a few days to beat Shinryu...not because he was difficult, but because it was all about remembering mechanics. I didn't put hours into Shinryu...I definitely didn't have perfected skills. Yet, I beat him without being carried. It is not a hard fight by any means.

Quit grouping all raiders together as 'they must find anything short of ultimate easy'. You keep doing this over and over and over again, and for no reason because you don't want to open your mind - no, you want to stand on your position and type away and argue with anybody that is even close to a raider. Not all raiders find everything easy. There are raiders here who may struggle with O5S, and there are raiders who have cleared everything Savage and Ultimate. Quit generalizing all of us into the same category, using that as the basis for your one argument that has repeatedly, over and over through the months, been challenged and disputed. I've said this several pages back, get out of that glass box you live in. Engage in the conversation instead of being so ready to deny everything all the time because it doesn't fit your view. Maybe you'll actually find folks willing to actually talk straight with you, but you're so stuck in having just one solid opinion that all raiders are the same that all you have done is just repeat the same, hole-ridden argument repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You don't conclude the story in the first act, which is what that fight ended. But you also don't make the hardest content in any game at the start, and story doesn't matter. And there's that 4.2 spoiler we all know, which makes it infuriating...if they planned on that, why on earth do shinryu so early?

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Expansions are their own story. Patches are essentially a sequel to the conclusion. Hence why 4.0 offered approximately 100 quests whereas 4.1-4.5 won't equate to even half that amount if Heavensward is anything to go by. Shinryun did conclude the story; Stormblood's main story. Everything thereafter is building towards 5.0. Now it's debatable whether they rolled out Shinryu too early, but his difficulty was never the problem. I'd much rather him over Thordan Normal, who was so laughably easy, you could shrug off virtually all his attacks with barely a scratch. All that accomplishes is making the story feel weak. Here's this big powerful Archbishop... that you curb stomp in less than three minutes.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think they made the last two even harder, but adjusted it down when they realized yeah, its a bit too hard for most people.

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I sincerely doubt it. I wish they had though because after Hashmel, Rabanastre becomes incredibly dull. We have two good fights then two you basically sleep through. Once again, you don't improve player skill by giving them cakewalks.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

As for Gordias, it wasn't just that. The rotations themselves were a big issue for a lot of people, because they were needlessly complex for complexity's sake. This was a big thing with DPS, and why I think DPS in general suffered such a huge gap between casuals and hardcore. We were lucky they didn't really make encounters super hard aparrt from the raids at start.

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I love how you just can't fathom raiders being objective. I repeatedly cite Nidhogg as a good baseline Primal despite him being a glorified pushover for any top-tier raider. When I can go into the current EX Primal with no knowledge of the fight, on a job I don't main (Warrior) and beat it on the third attempt after mechanics were explained. And I get survive with multiple vulnerability stacks. I'm going to call Byakko a very easy fight because even Nidhogg or Sophia didn't allow that. When I can solo the first boss of Hell's Lid from roughly 40%. I will call him easy.

And before you scream ilvl. I was 340 on my left side; 320 on my right and only at one STR materia in each accessory.

Back to Shinryu. I have said he was reasonable for story mode, but ultimately not a difficult fight if you pay attention. I suppose acting people to pay attention and actually do mechanics is just too difficult?

You are speaking to someone who learned Dragoon in less than two weeks, grinding it from 32 to 51 in a single day on nothing but FATEs. I looked up a guide on Youtube. Was I perfect? Hell no. But if I can do that, how is it so difficult for anyone else? The rotation wasn't needlessly complex per se, just not overly simplified. Regardless, that is no longer the case with Stormblood. So why has content gotten easier?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If this was the case than how did people like myself, who had never done Extremes or Savages before Shinryu, clear him with no issue?

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28 pages of people who feel everyone must meet their standards and play the way they deem appropriate. Just because you want something to be a universal standard will never make it so, no matter how much you rationalize your position. People who play the game super casually, just playing a game to relax during their down time have just as much of a right to exist as the min maxers who want a real challenge. just come to terms that people get enjoyment out of games in different ways and move on.... no one is going suddenly to change

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

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Did i ever say I wanted anyone to play to my standards? Did anybody else? No, I don't believe so. It's fine to go into something like a leveling or trial roulette and take it easy. The discussion pertains to content that requires some level of competency. At present, the only current casual content this applies to is Rabanastre, Shinryu, and Byakko, possibly even the first three sigmascape runs and Fractal Hard I don't impose my standards on anybody. Neither has anyone else, really, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I get too frustrated over this for my own good. I shouldn't, but it's exactly like you said; people vary in skill and ability. What I worry about is that the people who are good will shift the game like they did with HW again, which was a lot worse for medium to lower skilled people, and even high end people too.

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It shows. :) My advice is to not stress over it a whole lot. It's good to have a discussion, but not good to stress.

SE seems to be trying to cater to a pretty diverse audience now, and I don't think that's going to change because of any threads on the forum. Experienced devs all know that only a segment of the playerbase is represented here.

I tend to think there's room to tune things upward without making it horribly punishing, and I also think some people are overstating it when they talk about everything being easy. If you're in the top 25% of players, of course everything seems easy. People need to not lose sight of the fact that not everyone is at that level, and the skillset required to remember, react, and execute everything varies tremendously amongst the whole playerbase.

I'm sure you're not polling this OP, but good weighed against bad, I'm pretty sure you've had more good runs then bad ones. Humans just tend to notice the faults in anything before acknowledging the good. Do people suck? Yes, its an MMO, you're gonna run into every type of player. Is it ever really as bad as we make it? Case by case, but generally never so bad.

Though keep in mind that I'm not defending awful players, especially not in this current age of technology wherein you can look up anything...with videos. Ultimately I really can't sympathize with someone, if they found out how to install, pay for, and run an MMO, but have no idea how to use a search engine, or happen to be too lazy to do so.