DPS is the job of DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you want any additional requirement, like higher ilvl, speedrunning, a specific job, no first-timers, etc...you use the party finder.

---

No.

Remember I told you before....that is a hypocritical argument because you have expectations again.

You are basically saying everyone is allowed to go into DF and have the expectation to not speedrun, because speedrunners have to use PF according to you.

That's an expectation.

DF is for having ZERO expectations on both sides.

Either everyone can have expectations or no one can. No double standards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is not how majority works, and you can't brush it off when you're dealing with such small groups.

---

This game does brush it off, and I'll bet money on that it won't change, ever.

Quote:

---

As long as you match the Duty Finder expectation, you're in your right...

---

And if you want to have a no expectations except meeting the ilvl for the duty, and whatever else is fair game, you use the party finder. See how that works. If the majority of the group wants to speedrun, then that's fair game in DF. DF is about helping fill up parties, nothing more. If you expect anything other than a party found for you, use PF. However, if someone is new, and they speak up, most groups in DF are actually accomodating. Instead of demanding "It must be this way", maybe try communicating and asking nicely (this is aimed at the populace that does make ultimatum-like demands, on both sides, not you specifically)? When I've done it, I've found the groups work with me. For example if I say I'm new, the group will be like "Okay, no problem, let's roll with it." - I'm willing to meet the group in the middle, they'll also meet me in the middle. Compromise via communication. But the way I see it, if you're not willing to make a compromise either way, you use PF.

And yes, when I say both sides, I mean both sides. 3 people wanna speedrun, 1 wants a slow run? That one person wanting the slow run can either try and reach a compromise with the 3 players (for example if disability or other factors means they can't handle the speedrun pace), accept it'll be a speedrun, or leave/get kicked. Similarly, 3 people want a slow run, 1 person wants a speedrun? Again, that speedrun desirer can either try and reach a compromise (for example they're a bit short on time and have to leave for work fairly quickly), accept it'll be a slow run, or leave/get kicked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Way I see it if someone queues into a roulette they should go in with the expectation that they may get a less then ideal run, being a roulette it seems silly that people want to have some control over end result, be it the dungeon or members.

---

Yep, when I go into a roulette, I go in with an "I'll get what I get" mentality. Whether it's a speedrun or a slow run, I'll take what I get and roll with it. So long as people are respectful. And if for example there's a speedrun and I have a genuine reason I cannot handle speedrun pace (for example I'm not very well geared and I'm new), I'll speak up about it. 9 times out of 10, the group steps down their pace to meet something I can more reasonably achieve. In these DF groups, communication goes a LONG way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Remember I told you before....that is a hypocritical argument because you have expectations again.

---

You're still twisting things by considering that "no expectation" is an expectation.

I don't "have the expectation to not speedrun", I "don't have the expectation of having to speedrun".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

And if you want to have a no expectations except meeting the ilvl for the duty, and whatever else is fair game, you use the party finder.

---

No, if you only use the Duty Finder, the Duty Finder decide who has the right to join, not you. You don't use a tool that was specifically created to add additionnal requirements for people who stick by the basic requirements of the Futy Finder.

Way I see it if someone queues into a roulette they should go in with the expectation that they may get a less then ideal run, being a roulette it seems silly that people want to have some control over end result, be it the dungeon or members.

Though this goes both ways, if the group you get wants to speed run and you do not just leave, and if the group you get wants to take it slow and you do not, same option applies.

In the end we should not have to kick players, since as players we should go into a roulette with the expectation of getting a random experience, if that random experience does not sit well with you then simply leave the group and reroll, or form your own group that caters to your personal style. Be it a slow or speed run. No one should be berating or belittling another because they are unwilling to cater to your desired play.

Roulette is random, so either deal with the outcome or pay the price ( being sitting in queue again ) and roll again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're still twisting things by considering that "no expectation" is an expectation.

I don't "have the expectation to not speedrun", I "don't have the expectation of having to speedrun".

---

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Do you even understand what you have been saying?

You said that everyone has to adjust to people who want to do slow runs whether that be the majority wants to go slow or only 1/4 of the party wants to go slow doesn't matter, but no one has to adjust to a majority that wants speedruns even if 3/4 of the party wants a speedrun and only one player doesn't.

Why do the players who prefer speedruns have to always adjust to the players who prefer slow runs, but players who prefer slow runs never have to adjust to the players who prefer speedruns?

Do you not see what I am pointing out here?

This double standard in itself is an expectation. You expect to always have everyone adjust to your play style if you prefer slow runs, and you also expect all speedrunners to adjust to your slow run even if it is 3 v 1 like my example about you being on tank, remember you answered me:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'll explain to them why I won't do a speedrun, and if they don't understand, they'll have to deal with it or make a team with additionnal requirement.

---

You have an expectation that they just "have to deal with it" and you are basically saying "you have to adjust to my play style so too bad you can't do anything about it because kicking me is wrong", but they in turn cannot say anything like that to you. Why are you allowed to force your play style on them, but if they refuse or try to force their play style on you they are somehow in the wrong while you remain innocent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

You said that everyone has to adjust to people who want to do slow runs whether that be the majority wants to go slow or only 1/4 of the party wants to go slow doesn't matter, but no one has to adjust to a majority that wants speedruns even if 3/4 of the party wants a speedrun and only one player doesn't.

---

Because they have a tool to make sure that they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additionnal requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

This double standard in itself is an expectation.

---

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

You have an expectation that they just "have to deal with it"

---

No, I have the Duty Finder saying "They have the right to be there by my standards, so deal with it". And, like I said, it also applies to me if I'm the one asking for higher requirements, so again, no "double standard".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Snip . . .

---

You are missing the point, the standard is that a roulette is random, so you can either get a speed run group or a slower paced one. That is the expatiation all players should have when it comes to roulette queues it is random. If you happen to get a group of players that match your play style be whatever it is awesome, if you do not you have a few choices, either request if it would the group would be willing to go with your desired play style, if they agree great if not, you have two other options stick it out, or leave and spin again so to speak. In a roulette you can not alter the outcome you either have the option of taking what you got, or rolling again.

If players went into roulette queue with the expatiation that you may not get your ideal setup, players would not have to kick other players. At times when I queue and say I get a run that I cannot speed run as a tank due to gear, if the group is not okay with a slower paced run, I am not going to hold up the group I will simply leave and wish them a pleasant day. This happened not that long ago, would it have been nice if they worked around me? Sure, but I am not going to force them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

---

This is a double standard, because common denominator is a double standard. I could say that it should be the highest common denominator, and how you want to argue against that?! Impossible, cause common denominator have nothing to do with fairness. It is the perfect example of unfairness, but it gives everyone "a chance". Hence why it is used.

The fair way is by majority vote. When it's 2vs2 either one yields, or the party is remade. That is the fair option and how duty finder works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because they have a tool to make sure that they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additionnal requirements.

---

Yes, and people who want to always do slow runs also have that same tool to make sure they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additional requirements.

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "slow" or "fast" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "slow run" isn't?

PF is there for anyone who is 100% unwilling to compromise on certain things. That includes people who ALWAYS want slow runs and will never adjust to speedrunners and it also applies to speedrunners who will NEVER adjust to slow down for slower runs. Both sides need to use PF in this case OR they have to accept the fact they may not get the group they want, or that they will have to adjust, or that they may get kicked for their refusal to compromise to a majority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

---

Yes, exactly, the only requirements are language and item level. So "slow" or "fast" are not in the requirements either. You are not required by the DF to go fast just as you are not required by the DF to go slow, which means both would be considered additional requirements.

So if you always wanted to speedrun and would never compromise you should use PF, but also if you always wanted to slow run and would never compromise you should also use PF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, I have the Duty Finder saying "They have the right to be there by my standards, so deal with it". And, like I said, it also applies to me if I'm the one asking for higher requirements, so again, no "double standard".

---

So these "higher requirements" are just things you personally pick and choose? Is there something in-game that says what are "higher requirements"? Does the DF explain what is a "higher requirement"?

I've been playing since launch and I don't see where the game outlines what is a "higher requirement" so it seems to me you are just trying to dictate what is considered a "higher requirement" that has to be done in PF only. There is no objectivity to it, you just pick and choose based on subjective opinion. Objectively we need to look at what DF requires and then see what isn't listed.

So again, 3 people want a speedrun and have majority and you admit on tank that if you didn't want to speedrun you would expect them to just "deal with it" and they cannot kick you. Why are you allowed to force them to go slow and they have no choice but to obey you and they cannot force their play style on you otherwise they are in the wrong but you can freely force your play style on them and be innocent of any wrong? (This is a double standard by the way, you are allowed to do something that your opposition isn't allowed to do)


PS. You have had double standards everywhere in your posts, sorry, either you just don't want to accept that or you don't understand what a double standard is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

the standard is that a roulette is random, so you can either get a speed run group or a slower paced one. That is the expatiation all players should have when it comes to roulette queues it is random.

---

This.

I just don't get why people "have to deal with it". What's the reasoning behind this "people should adapt to my standards but I won't adapt to theirs" statement? It's not a rethorical question, I want a legit answer. The expectation shouldn't be "the worst possible situation" but the possibility of facing both of them and adapt accordingly. As mentioned above, you have the right to kick the odd-ball or just leave if the group doesn't meet your standards. Or adapt. The later is the one that makes you a better player overall, in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "slow" or "fast" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "slow run" isn't?

---

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

So these "higher requirements" are just things you personally pick and choose? Is there something in-game that says what are "higher requirements"? Does the DF explain what is a "higher requirement"?

---

The PF does, where you can set a higher required ilvl, restrict the jobs that can join, or set any comment for any additionnal constraint you decide as a leader such as "No 1st timers" or "lootmaster". And people who don't want to meet your requirements simply won't join your team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilseph

It's not a rethorical question, I want a legit answer.

---

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" mindset. This is not the case with PF or RF.

---

But why? Why it has to work like that *according to you*? You're making it look like an unwritten rule, when that's not the case. As it is now, it seems to be matter of personal preference more than anything. I respectfully disagree with your idea of expectation, as I'd suggest to be open to either scenario upon queueing up. Sure, you can convince them to do otherwise, but in the end, that rule doesn't exist. You made that rule by yourself. Don't try to impose it on other players as if you had any authority, you're a player like them. It's what the majority wants, you can either negotiate, kick the conflicting parts (which will lead to a vote) or leave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilseph

I respectfully disagree with your idea of expectation, as I'd suggest to be open to either scenario upon queueing up. Sure, you can convince them to do otherwise, but in the end, that rule doesn't exist.

---

Sure, we can discuss to find a consensus, but, if that consensus can't be found because people are too stubborn, you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

---

Is there a single instance in this game in which a "full" run would be optional while still being at all worthwhile? There's AV first room, DH to first boss, DC to first boss, partial runs, but the only dungeons in the game I can think of in which a full run is not required to complete the dungeon are DH (2 pulls short of full), and AV (about 4 mob packs short of full).

I very frequently see people tossing up "slow run" PFs. And IS a setting specifically for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

---

No. It doesn't. It may be rule by the mean, median, or mode, but it is certainly not always the LCD unless the rest of the group is for whatever reason unwilling to kick in order to approach more common ground between that player majority.

It's merely majority rule. No more, no less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

---

So....you are just arguing semantics now...that means nothing really and changes nothing for the point I made. All you did was change the words.

I can do that too easily enough...

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "full run" or "speedrun" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "full run" isn't?

Also to be fair there is "slow run" and "speedrun" when it comes to how the party is handling the pulls and not just if the party is doing optional side rooms. Multipulling is a speedrun mentality (along with skipping avoidable rooms), while "slow run" would be a group doing single pulls and with the optional addition of doing a "full run" as well by including side rooms/extra mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

The PF does, where you can set a higher required ilvl, restrict the jobs that can join, or set any comment for any additionnal constraint you decide as a leader such as "No 1st timers" or "lootmaster". And people who don't want to meet your requirements simply won't join your team.

---

There are options in PF for every type of group though. You can make the group for first timers only, or slow runs only, or anything you want so it isn't only for "higher requirements" and that would be obvious to most people who actually make PFs. Which again is why both sides have the option to use PF if they are 100% unwilling to compromise since in PF they can create the exact party they want be it slow run or fast run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

---

No, the DF has no rules like that which you yourself even pointed out lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As long as you match the Duty Finder expectation (min ilvl, language), you're in your right.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

---

I mean at this point you are destroying your own argument you do realize that? You are contradicting yourself.

So where is this "objective lowest common denominator" rules? Where in-game does it say that DF follows these rules? Who at SE said that those are the rules for DF?

If something is "objective" that means it is a "fact". So where is your proof that DF in-game has this "lowest common denominator" rules or where is the quote directly from SE saying that those rules are in place for DF?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Snip . . .

---

Why are you avoiding the point that the only standard or expectation that is placed on DF and roulette queue is that it is a random experience, and as a player you have no idea what kind of group you will get. Since the group make up is generated at random a individual players will or desire takes no part in it. PF is meant to remove the random nature of DF and roulette queue, be it for a speed run or to do a slower paced run.

Once again an individual player does not have the right the impose their preferences on the group, if your play style does not gel with the group simply leave said group and either create a PF, or try your luck and queue again. When a player tries to impose their desire on the group it only leads to harassment, which then has the potential to leave each member with a negative experience.

This goes for those that wish to try and force a speed run when the rest of the group is okay to take it slow, as much as it goes for people that wish the take things slow when the group clearly wants and is capable of doing a speed run. Your line of thinking will simply promote harassment and create negative experiences for players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squintina

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

---

There absolutely is. I agree 100% in that regard, and I'd meant for my post to clearly agree with your own. (Clearly I failed.) As for anything outside that agreement, I'm just saying that XIV's game design itself very, very rarely pushes in any direction but that babying tunnel-vision. And it easily could, if it weren't so focused on being barebone or "streamlined", but it's as if they're almost philosophically opposed to allowing for that kind of depth (and make continual adjustments to filter it out, such as complete resistance to damage-broken CC in all content over 50, or the gradual increasing gap between tank and non-tank survivability).

And the funny, or abominable, thing, imo, is just how perfect lower-level dungeons otherwise would be for figuring out just how much one can directly contribute with any given toolkit. It allows people to build up conventions for unstated but understood target order or AoE vs. ST. You can figure out when, how, and why to DoT spread, to CC, to AoE. It actually has some of the few viable places in this game in which single-targeting down 3-4 enemies, one by one, via CC, outpaces AoE once you account for the added healer dps made available. And it given ample opportunity to thin out one's tank stance usage. And yet... "I'm the healer. I heal. That's it." <Proceeds to idle for 9 GCDs.> Learning opportunity wasted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, we can discuss to find a consensus, but, if that consensus can't be found because people are too stubborn, you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

---

Nor do you have any right to enforce your preferences. I can pull for the tank if I so choose. If you dislike it, your options are restricted to asking me in chat not to or kicking me. In the latter case, if the kick were denied, the majority has spoken. Now you either have to accept it or leave yourself. DF exists solely to create an easy and constantly available option for running content. How we approach it is entirely up to the 4-8 individuals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Snip . . .

---

I do agree that PF is meant remove the variables that come with DF, though I do think as players we should go simply with the vote option a means of showing the consensus of the group. I get what you are saying, I simply wish tank and healers that prefer things a certain way spoke up at the start instead keeping to themselves, if tank and healers that prefer slower runs mention it at the start I do think most people would be understanding, and if they are not the player that made the request should not hold the group hostage and force the group to kick them, they simply should live on their on accord or adapt to the situation if it is solely a play style issue and not gear one.

Though I do not agree with trying see what the consensus is on either side of spectrum by forcing a situation that may lead to a kick. I know it is a silly notion, but I simply do not understand why people on either side try to force their preferred play style in a random situation leaving the only recourse forced removal from the group.

On the whole I do agree with your point, the collective get to decide the pace. I simply wish people would not try to test the waters and letting the vote kick option be the deciding factor.

I have never used the vote kick option before do you have to be the party leader to initiate or can anyone do it? Either way it sucks putting players be it one person or the whole group through a negative experience simply to allow the vote kick option to the deciding factor. Wish more people would be vocal and speak up at the start.

This morning I joined a group asked if the group was okay with smaller pulls, since my gear is pretty booboo. They said nah, so I just left and told them to have a nice day. I was not going to try and force smaller pulls or run the risk of them trying to force larger pulls on me. That is how these situations should be handled not by testing the waters and seeing which wins out the vote kick or people simply being indifferent and just going with the vote even though they would prefer a different type of run.

I just do not agree with the whole you do not like then kick me mindset, may has misunderstood your point, but that is what I got. Be it for either side of the spectrum when it comes to fast or slow runs, seems selfish to a degree in my eyes. If that is not what you meant then please disregard the whole post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

I do agree that PF is meant remove the variables that come with DF, though I do think as players we should go simply with the vote option a means of showing the consensus of the group.

---

If the tank (or the healer) is not geared enough to survive a big pull, it doesn't matter that the three others are adamant on doing a speedrun.
If the DPS can't AoE efficiently (Because, yes, low level dungeons still exist..and MNK), forcing a speedrun is not saving any time and only puts more burden on healers by removing downtimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I can pull for the tank if I so choose. If you dislike it, your options are restricted to asking me in chat not to or kicking me

---

Enjoy your death if you do it on purpose. And good job wasting your own time because you don't want to waste your own time following the tank's pace.

Haukke Manor is another where full runs aren't required for completion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Haukke Manor is another where full runs aren't required for completion.

---

As are Sastasha, Tam-Tara, Copperbell, Halatali, Brayflox, Stone Vigil...
And I think people wiped Toto-Rak from their memory to keep their sanity after so many low-level roulettes :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the tank (or the healer) is not geared enough to survive a big pull, it doesn't matter that the three others are damant on doing a speedrun.
If the DPS can't AoE efficiently (Because, yes, low level dungeons still exist..and MNK), forcing a speedrun is not saving any time and only puts more burden on healers by removing downtimes.

---

That is a strawman. No one is talking about cases where a tank or healer is unable due to gear or cases where multipulls are not beneficial like in very low level dungeons. In that case yeah it doesn't matter if 3 people demand a speedrun because it isn't a realistic goal so some kind of compromise has to happen.

My examples were simply when there is no gear or experience impediment, for example, no new players, all are geared enough to do speedruns, and the job composition and/or level of the dungeon is proper where a speedrun is beneficial.. No one with even a bit of logical sense would argue about trying to force a speedrun when the tank or healer simply don't have the gear to handle it or in low levels when AoE is limited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Enjoy your death if you do it on purpose. And good job wasting your own time because you don't want to waste your own time following the tank's pace.

---

You completely missed their point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Enjoy your death if you do it on purpose. And good job wasting your own time because you don't want to waste your own time following the tank's pace.

---

Again, you’re insinuating that people need to yield to one player instead of the majority. That’s not how DF works. You work together as a team for some sort compromise on how a run should go, not just say, “Well, I’m the tank and I’m more important than you, so I decide what we do, and you just have to listen to me or be kicked. Because I’m the tank. Deal with it.” Same logic replies to the reverse, inb4 you bring that up: “I want large pulls/speed run, and I’m more important than the other 3/7 people, so you just have to listen to me. Deal with it.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Enjoy your death if you do it on purpose. And good job wasting your own time because you don't want to waste your own time following the tank's pace.

---

Have you run some of the dungeons lately? DPS jobs can handle a single pack with spot heals. It's why 2-3 packs have essentially become the normal. In fact, I did it the other day in Solm Al (hard) on AST and kept myself healed while DPSing. On just the one pull, I literally didn't touch even regen. That's how insignificant the damage is. Regardless, it has little to do with speed and the fact one pack pulls are mind numbingly boring. I can basically afk.

So if the healer decides they want larger pulls and is willing to heal through a DPS pulling. The majority has decided.

Do people refuse to do big pulls when capable?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Do people refuse to do big pulls when capable?

---

Yes, they do. I’ve done level 70 Expert dungeons with tanks in 330/340 gear (which is very much overkill for a dungeon like Kugane Castle) that pull one pack at a time. They are more than capable of multi-pulling.

Barring instances where the healer or tank is severely undergeared and/or new to a duty, or instances where DPS refuse to AOE larger packs, there are people that legit refuse to pull more than one pack at a time.

Can confirm, we had to clear a couple of pulls in Bardams with no tank after they had a sulk and /sat in place. I’d be lieing if it wasnt rough but we did it =o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Do people refuse to do big pulls when capable?

---

I've done the full pulls in every dungeon at minimum ilvl (just to give some extra challenge), so if someone normally geared does not, it's pretty much just refusal rather than due caution unless they or their team are of (significantly) below average skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Snip . . .

---

Please stop cherry picking, everyone has clearly stated that if the group is capable and desires speed runs no one person should hold them back no matter the reason. The expectation all players should have when it comes to DF is that it is random. The point everyone is trying to make that you keep ignoring is that the experience of DF is randomly generated, and as such the the group gets to decide what the pace is, not one individual player.

I do agree that if players do not like the style of the group they should not try and create a negative experience for the group, or for the person by either sitting around waiting for the vote kick option, or by pulling extra packs. As players we have to come to terms with the fact that we may at times not get our ideal group, so we have certain options if the group wants to a slower paced run or a speed run either you leave or suck it up. The option of doing something to force a vote kick should never been an option since that is an extremely selfish mindset.

I mean I have been in groups were the healer asked if we could do smaller pulls simply because they did not like them, the group said w/e, about four pulls in one of the DPS got annoyed and started to pull for the tank. Though no one ever initiated a vote kick we simply just went alone since with, while myself and the tank simply did not care either way. The healer and the DPS that ended up pulling extra packs were both placed in a situation that they did not enjoy. I do think people should just speak up, and if they do not like the style of the group and majority is okay with it just leave and re-queue, use PF, or queue with one or two other players so you will be the majority. I do not understand why people have the desire to put others in positions they do not like waiting for the vote kick option since doesn't a certain amount of time have to pass before you can start a vote kick?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Barring instances where the healer or tank is severely undergeared and/or new to a duty, or instances where DPS refuse to AOE larger packs, there are people that legit refuse to pull more than one pack at a time.

---

It may not be popular, but I think if say the tank or healer are severely under geared they should not hold the group back if they are capable and desire a speed pull. Not saying that you do, you just brought up a point that I think many people feel that the group should work around the new player. It would be nice if they did, but no one should expect it or even think they are bad people for not wanting to deal with a new player.

I have left groups as a under geared tank since at the start I told them I have never been and my gear gear was meh, both DPS just typed out RIP. At that point I had to make a call, I could either pull small groups and make the run boring for everyone, pull larger groups and pretty much put the healer in a position due to my gear would leave the healer not as much time to DPS as they would with a geared tank, that new the place, or leave. I just left and apologized.

Though I have seen others take the other options, if the tank is under geared and does not know the place tries to do large pulls I could not image how stressful that may be for the healer since the tank did die a few times through the run. I mean we did it, and as a dps it was annoying, but bearable, not sure about the healer and since I never healed I cannot image how healing such a tank makes someone feel.

I guess what I am saying is I wish also new players did not expect the group to cater to them, if you run into a group willing to awesome, but do not expect it. If new players do run into groups that seem indifferent or showing contempt for the idea I would hope they would make a judgment call that takes everyone's feelings into account as best as they can not just their own.

I don't get the mentality of these (for the lack of better word) bad FFXIV players.

If you are joining a random party, isn't it desired to perform well, so that the dungeon run goes smooth, fast and easy for most of the group? To leave a good impression? To actually make it fun for everyone involved in the group? Why would you literally disrespect people in a multiplayer settings because you "want to play the game your way" instead pulling the best out of yourself?

Is it because in your mindset, you think you are good players and don't need a change of playstile or (dare I say) advice from a random person?

I honestly want to know that without some funny guy meme'ing me a 1 liner because he thinks he is funny.

EDIT: for the sake of clarification: I draw a clear line between a new or low skill ceiling player that is trying to improve (even tho he really should know the basics at max level), and a straight out baddy who refuses to change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

so that the dungeon run goes smooth, fast and easy for most of the group?

---

Problem is, "smooth", "fast" and "easy" can contradict each other depending on level, gear, skill or party composition.
If you can't have all three, which one is the most important ?

Quote:

---

Majority Rule

---

Can we just agree that majority rule is not a reasonable standard to expect people to follow?

For example:
5 people in a MS think that 1-3 people should run the instance while the rest just afk.
^ it is completely reasonable for the minority to not comply with this right?

A more realistic example:
Party: Healer is new, please go easy with the pulls.
^ if a good tank pulls one group at a time, they dont need a healer, but if the tank makes a pull that requires a healer and something goes wrong, it's the tank's fault for not pulling small enough. This is very unfair to the tank. I queue with the understanding that there will be a healer and the role of healer requires them to take some responsibility for the party's survival. If the party wants to throw all of that responsibility on the tank, it is reasonable for the tank to not want to comply with the majority. (in this situation, i ask the healer make a commitment to healing like: "I understand you are new. Can i count on you for a minimum of cure II spam? I can work with that", i.e. something that gives them some responsibility and enables them to be accountable)

Of all of them, "easy" isn't.

Given that most dungeons are easy by default and are pretty heavily gimped down by the players gear level / max itemsynch, the element of challenge outside of savage content is reasonably low. As I mentioned in the post you're quoting but sadly/conveniently cropped out, people are more often than not encouraged to improve and the attitude ranges widly between grateful acceptance for advice and rudeful spite.

I have never, in my >15 years of mmo experience, witnessed a moment where people, outside of the hardest endgame content, get shamed for asking for advice and actually use it to turn them into a better player.

The real problem lies with people who straight out refuse to optimize. Check my other post, there are multiple reason why that is an issue.

Bottom line: If you don't want/try to push the best out of you, you have it coming to get shamed/insulted/kicked out of a party in a multiplayer setting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

Can we just agree that majority rule is not a reasonable standard to expect people to follow?

---

You example here, though, depends on a behavior beneath a minimum of what any reasonable person would require to consider the majority therein not cheating and/or griefing, each reportable offenses. Moreover it relies on double-standards, whereby that majority rule is not legislating for itself, but rather creating two bodies, and then legislating over that second body in which it has no actual participation.

Now, admittedly, reporting aside, they are technically free to do that; we can't systematically defend against such except by punishment after the fact. But in any reasonable situation not already reportable, does "majority rule" as a basic description fall apart?

Majority rule will always suffer from misinterpretation, unfair judgment, and deposited responsibility, as per your second example — which you'd offered a perfect personal counter for — and I, myself, will likely find situations where I'm likely to stretch how I interpret the opinions of the remaining group members, such as when the tank in a "let's go slow" party who knows he can survive on Regen alone, but as our only true arbitrator is Vote Kick, I don't see how majority rule isn't an apt basic description.

Though, admittedly "striking a balance between or as to circumvent effective conflicts" may be a better definition, albeit a mouthful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

Of all of them, "easy" isn't.

---

Then chose between "fast" and "smooth"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

The real problem lies with people who straight out refuse to optimize.

---

The problem also lies with people who don't have the patience to teach other. If your new healer/tank tries to manage a mass pull and the group wipes once or twice, most people will just bail out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Now, admittedly, reporting aside, they are technically free to do that; we can't systematically defend against such except by punishment after the fact. But in any reasonable situation not already reportable, does "majority rule" as a basic description fall apart?

---

The problem with the majority is that not all roles bear the same responsibility, so they don't express their opinion based on the same premise.

Moving the goalpost and strawmanning in one reply. Should I only post in single words so that you can't crop out the info you dislike?
Which part of "asking for advice" and "improve" did you not understand?

If you >new guy< overestimates himself and decides to be witty about it, can you blame people to leave? Given that the dungeon structure makes it more than difficult to wipe on big pulls since packs are gated behind others anyway.

For the sake of clarity: Can you give me a concrete example of your party bailing after mentioned mass pull?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

snip

---

I have been in quite a few instances with undergeared tanks and healers. In the ones where they have outright apologized for their poor gear a la something like “I just returned to the game after a couple months absence”, “I just started playing a few days ago and didn’t know I could get better gear from vendors/the MB”, or “I know my gear is really poor but I’m going to try my best; if it’s not enough/too slow then feel free to replace me if you guys want a cleaner/faster run”, groups have been extremely willing to help out said person, adjusting to accommodate them. However, when a person doesn’t speak up about their poor gear, tries to do far too much for them to handle multiple times (i.e., poorly geared tank tries for larger pulls, dies, respawns, and just does the same thing again—bonus points if they acknowledge their gear is crap), people are far less willing to accommodate, and far more likely to resort to “majority rules” in the form of vote dismissal. Communication is key.

Certainly people should not expect other people to cater to them—and I know that there are players out there that do not expect that, but there are an equal amount out there that do.

Personally speaking, I will not enter a duty unless I have appropriate gear for it, and that probably comes from my experience as a healer having to heal overly enthusiastic undergeared tanks on more occasions than I would like to count. A good example is I am leveling up NIN right now, which was still in the 230 gear from Weeping City (tells you how often I played that job after it hit 60 lol). I farmed up some poetics to buy the job 260 Shire gear, and even augmented it before opting to join roulettes where I may get a duty I am not geared to handle. Same thing when I leveled DRK—she was in full 270, and I didn’t get much gear from her after Shisui, so I stuck to just doing Alliance Roulette so as to not burden a healer in Bardam’s Mettle or Doma Castle with poor gear. However, not everyone has that kind of foresight nor consideration. Only in a perfect world would such happen, and this world is anything but that. I try not to expect people to have the same kind of behavior or consideration as myself, though it would be nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem also lies with people who don't have the patience to teach other. If your new healer/tank tries to manage a mass pull and the group wipes once or twice, most people will just bail out.

---

It is awesome when people offer to teach you in a game like this, but you shouldn't expect it from everyone. No one has the obligation to set aside time from their game time/life in order to teach a complete stranger how to play their role/job in an online game. You shouldn't have that kind of expectation.

I mean I do help people when I can, but I also don't always want to be spending my time teaching people either. I pay my sub to play the game and have fun too and teaching others isn't always part of my agenda.

People need to realize you cannot always rely on other in-game players during an instance to teach you. There are plenty of online resources you could use to further your own learning about a role or job or you could even use /shout in a populated map or use PF to see if someone is available who has time to set aside to help you out. During a run is the worst time to expect everyone else to teach you a lot of basics about your job. It's great when a party is okay to do so, but you cannot always expect it.

Sort of like these players that go into EX Primals in DF then ask for all the mechanics to be explained to them.....I don't understand these types of players. If you were just going to make someone else type out all the mechanics when we enter the duty why didn't you just look up a guide online first? It's the same result and you can learn at your own pace and get way clearer explanations then having some poor other player get sore fingers typing out all that information for you during the run and making everyone wait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

Moving the goalpost and strawmanning in one reply.

---

Funny, coming from someone who, when asked "which one of three is the most important", can only reply "this one is the least".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

Should I only post in single words so that you can't crop out the info you dislike?

---

I didn't know there was a rule that I have to reply to every single sentence in one post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

Which part of "asking for advice" and "improve" did you not understand?

---

Which part of "people not having the patience to teach other did you not understand" ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

If you >new guy< overestimates himself and decides to be witty about it, can you blame people to leave?

---

So, we went from "new players need to improve" to "the new guy is the one biting more than he can chew" so others are victims. Kudos for consistency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorriow

For the sake of clarity: Can you give me a concrete example of your party bailing after mentioned mass pull?

---

What ? You're trying to tell me that you've never met people who immediately leave when someone is a first timer and acknowledged that they don't know one particular fight ? What a wonderful MMO world you're lving into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

People need to realize you cannot always rely on other in-game players during an instance to teach you.

---

Speedrunning is like learning how to ride a bicycle, the first times, you will fail. If people kick or leave you when it happens, chances are you won't improve for quite some time. And no videos will ever be enough to teach you, or else everybody would clear all content.

If I meet someone new and willing to learn, I will adjust my pace to him, even if some hurry veterans ask me to speedrun because it's the zillionth time they do this content.