Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You all aren't using the dev tags. I put one on the topic.
This very thing is why the people who say "wait until X is implemented before saying Y are wrong.
Now it is too late to level cap them.

I should have made a stink about it a month and a half ago and dragged people kicking and screaming through the topic.

Back then they could have changed it to the right decision.
Now they can't.

Now we can only hope Yoshida did this for a good reason and not because putting a level cap mechanic in it would have simply delayed the launch of the raid.

Hope is inferior to stopping the forseen when you're able.

Next time the devs mention they're working on something, you all need to make it very clear what you don't want them to do, especially if they are likely to do it.

It is your all's faults for raging at this. You should have made this quite clear that you wanted them capped back in march.

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Honestly, it was assumed they would be. Why wouldn't they be?

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It doesn't destroy the challenge unless you want it to destroy the challenge. If you don't want to be lead through the dungeon by someone level 50, don't get someone level 50 to join you, form a party of level 25's instead.

If someone ones wants to be hand-lead through the dungeon, what difference does it make to you?

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Because people (including me) will always take the easier route in a competitive environment like a MMO. There is no "free choice" when　EXP/hour or loot is involved. Your argument sounds logical, yet defies human nature. If everybody was offered artifact weapons at the beginning of the game - who would refuse? Would it make their gaming experience more fun? No.

SE has to take into consideration human nature, but that's one of the many things they fail at.

In my opinion, if the rank 30 gear is really great that you want to wear it at rank 50 and enter the dungeon to do it as a rank 50 so what? Yes you will get it quicker and it will be less of a challenge (possibly- depending if they have anything in place to maybe scale mob levels etc) compared to the other dungeon.

We are also getting a dungeon for rank 50 that will present more of a challenge for those of appropriate rank. It's content at the end of the day- some achievements will be faster and others slower... isn't that the point? If you really want a challenge then do it on a job of the correct rank. I really don't see what the issue is. No-one is going to force you to go as rank 50 with three other rank 50 friends to do it where it may "spoil your fun".

I also have no issue of a level cap being introduced, but scaling down gear you are wearing, removing actions from your action bar and having to reset abilities etc is probably more difficult for SE to implement at the moment considering the job and battle overhaul that they are currently working on. Perhaps they will in the future.
In the meantime they are trying to give players what we have been screaming for- content. I'm not trying to white knight, but seriously arguing that no level cap means that you will do it at rank 50 and have no challenge (where you have a choice to do it as a job of the right rank level) is no argument at all to me.

Either do it at the correct ranks, or don't do it at all. At least they are starting to put something else in the game other than leves ^^

If the rank 30 gear is not worth getting for players dependent on how long they will use it for, or its effectiveness later on compared to the rank 50 gear, then simply don't do the lower dungeon. Isn't this the same at the moment for mid-level NM drops? And, this was always the case for NM drops in FFXI. Not everything can be targeted at rank 50 players.
Just my thought on the matter. :)

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Originally Posted by Richard

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...331#post192331



Way to halfass more filler content that will be completed in two weeks.

[SIZE="6"]
Give us OPTIONS!

- Voluntary level cap feature: Any player above the recommended dungeon level can initiate this feature to scale their level down. Example: Lv.50 Player wants a challenge so his Lv.50 job is scaled down to Lv.25 for Toto-Rak.

- Make it so loot doesn't drop when there is a player that is 10 levels above the recommended level in the dungeon. TERA's instanced content works like this and it helps balance content.

- ???
[/SIZE]

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onoes
Gods forbid they give us freedom on how we want to play it.

In the end, 1 thing matters

IT IS NOT GOING TO BE CAPPED

this is a FACT

we know this

everyone arguing for a cap, already lost this arguement as its already been decided

so why the hell is this still going on?

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

So, in that vein, the Promathia missions were only "cosmetic challenges".
Dammit, do you even know what you are talking about?

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Promathia missions were a chain of storyline missions and you would miss out on the expansion's story by not capping it, not just a single instance. I'm not missing anything if I decide not to run the r30 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Richard

you miss the point that there are people who don't have jobs below the 30's and 40's anymore.

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If this is the case, then surely these players won't be bothered about the gear that drops in the lower level dungeon? The same as if gear drops from NMs for my CON for example that is below my current rank- if it is no longer effective I don't care to go and get it. I don't see that being a problem- should I insist that SE makes all NM drops for rank 50 only?

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Originally Posted by Shika

In my opinion, if the rank 30 gear is really great that you want to wear it at rank 50 and enter the dungeon to do it as a rank 50 so what? Yes you will get it quicker and it will be less of a challenge (possibly- depending if they have anything in place to maybe scale mob levels etc) compared to the other dungeon.

We are also getting a dungeon for rank 50 that will present more of a challenge for those of appropriate rank. It's content at the end of the day- some achievements will be faster and others slower... isn't that the point? If you really want a challenge then do it on a job of the correct rank. I really don't see what the issue is. No-one is going to force you to go as rank 50 with three other rank 50 friends to do it where it may "spoil your fun".

I also have no issue of a level cap being introduced, but scaling down gear you are wearing, removing actions from your action bar and having to reset abilities etc is probably more difficult for SE to implement at the moment considering the job and battle overhaul that they are currently working on. Perhaps they will in the future.
In the meantime they are trying to give players what we have been screaming for- content. I'm not trying to white knight, but seriously arguing that no level cap means that you will do it at rank 50 and have no challenge (where you have a choice to do it as a job of the right rank level) is no argument at all to me.

Either do it at the correct ranks, or don't do it at all. At least they are starting to put something else in the game other than leves ^^

If the rank 30 gear is not worth getting for players dependent on how long they will use it for, or its effectiveness later on compared to the rank 50 gear, then simply don't do the lower dungeon. Isn't this the same at the moment for mid-level NM drops? And, this was always the case for NM drops in FFXI. Not everything can be targeted at rank 50 players.
Just my thought on the matter. :)

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it's not really about gear drops or targeting a specific audience. it's about making the game challenging to those who want a challenge and making it casual for those who want to be spoon fed.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Honestly, it was assumed they would be. Why wouldn't they be?

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Because there's no level cap mechanic and would require several additional decisions on how to handle gear level and the coding that would make that happen. Because they do as little as they can get away with.

It wasn't assumed they would be, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Because people (including me) will always take the easier route in a competitive environment like a MMO. There is no "free choice" when　EXP/hour or loot is involved.

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Don't expect a good exp/hour rate with a rank 50 class in a rank 30 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Shika

If this is the case, then surely these players won't be bothered about the gear that drops in the lower level dungeon? The same as if gear drops from NMs for my CON for example that is below my current rank- if it is no longer effective I don't care to go and get it. I don't see that being a problem- should I insist that SE makes all NM drops for rank 50 only?

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circular arguement

they dont want 50s getting the gear easily
the 50s dont need the gear
then why does it need to be capped?
because they still dont want the 50s getting the gear easily

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Originally Posted by Shika

If this is the case, then surely these players won't be bothered about the gear that drops in the lower level dungeon? The same as if gear drops from NMs for my CON for example that is below my current rank- if it is no longer effective I don't care to go and get it. I don't see that being a problem- should I insist that SE makes all NM drops for rank 50 only?

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Its not all about gear! Did the CoP missions drop any worthwile gear/loot? No. But those instanced dungeons were extremely fun because they were challenging. The level cap was a key part in maintaining that challenge.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

ok i'm not sure how much more i can explain it. if i want to run through the r30 dungeon to see what is in it or to help a ls mate get something he needs then that is my business. this is an instanced dungeon and you will not even know i am there. i find helping other people and exploring fun.

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would it not be fun to help him, and explore, while actually having some threats to your life? or having a clock ticking on your exploration? to have to do the content multiple times?

To have to fight some gatekeeper NM at the appropriate level to get to the room with the stunning waterfall view, and gold treasure chest?

Having the game put you at a level appropriate level, can add a lot more content, and entertainment than just running through it.

as the game stands most people dont know the tricks and weakness and strengths of many mobs in the game because it simply doesnt matter, because you can just outlevel 90% of the games content. The gatekeeper NM could be the most epic designed monster in the game with special abilities, limit breaks, heck it might be able to summon bahamut, but when the level 50 dude kills it in 3 hits, you would never see that.

people complain battle is boring, and easy, when a lot of that is because they are fighting the monsters when they pose no challenge, the worst part is SE seems to be continously promoting this, then claiming their focus is "Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play." and then caps sp at 10 levels, and allows you to steam roll monster design/placement and strategies by over leveling everything.

they should at the very least limit rewards based on levels in the party.

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Originally Posted by Shika

Either do it at the correct ranks, or don't do it at all. At least they are starting to put something else in the game other than leves ^^

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we will be. it stated + that means above that point and since it is uncapped that can be all the way to 50. if we want to go help others and those others want help that is our business.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Promathia missions were a chain of storyline missions and you would miss out on the expansion's story by not capping it, not just a single instance. I'm not missing anything if I decide not to run the r30 dungeon.

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CoP missions were a means to an end. Mid level content is also a means to an end. For a new player entering the game they will most likely go through the R30 dungeon and no skip it to gear up for the R50 dungeon. This is how progession works.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Because there's no level cap mechanic and would require several additional decisions on how to handle gear level and the coding that would make that happen. Because they do as little as they can get away with.

It wasn't assumed they would be, obviously.

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yet they can enforce a minimum level requirement?

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Originally Posted by Richard

CoP missions were a means to an end. Mid level content is also a means to an end. For a new player entering the game they will most likely go through the R30 dungeon and no skip it to gear up for the R50 dungeon. This is how progession works.

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cop as a means to an end was a story driven chain
this is not a chain of quests/missions

they are 2 seperate dungeons

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Originally Posted by Richard

it's not really about gear drops or targeting a specific audience. it's about making the game challenging to those who want a challenge and making it casual for those who want to be spoon fed.

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A r50 going back and getting r30 gear isn't spoon feeding. That's like saying The Rock beating you in an arm wrestling match is being spoon fed a victory. He's bigger, badder, and stronger than you because he worked to get there. Don't get mad at the Rock because you can't be bothered to go out and lift a few weights.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

yet they can enforce a minimum level requirement?

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its called "the quest wont be available to enter these until you are X level"

same way they do the leve requirements


but there is nothing in place to do the opposite

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

circular arguement

they dont want 50s getting the gear easily
the 50s dont need the gear
then why does it need to be capped?
because they still dont want the 50s getting the gear easily

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dont want you ruining the game for everyone lower than you. If it was just you doing it who cares, but it will be the rule rather than the exception.
If they limit drops it would be enough of a deterent for level 50s, but still allow people who just want to explore and see stuff to go in there and murder everything

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Originally Posted by Felis

Don't expect a good exp/hour rate with a rank 50 class in a rank 30 dungeon.

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Don't expect a good SP/hour rate in a 60 minute dungeon at all, because that's not why you're there.

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Originally Posted by Physic

dont want you ruining the game for everyone lower than you. If it was just you doing it who cares, but it will be the rule rather than the exception.
If they limit drops it would be enough of a deterent for level 50s, but still allow people who just want to explore and see stuff to go in there and murder everything

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but no one is forcing anyone to go into those 30 dungeons with 50 players

thats the beauty of it

you can CHOOSE who is in your party still, or did they somehow take that option out of the game?

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Originally Posted by Richard

CoP missions were a means to an end. Mid level content is also a means to an end. For a new player entering the game they will most likely go through the R30 dungeon and no skip it to gear up for the R50 dungeon. This is how progession works.

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I am already 50. I don't need r30 gear to progress.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but no one is forcing anyone to go into those 30 dungeons with 50 players

thats the beauty of it

you can CHOOSE who is in your party still, or did they somehow take that option out of the game?

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for the people with no jobs below the 30's yes. that option is taken out of the game.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

A r50 going back and getting r30 gear isn't spoon feeding. That's like saying The Rock beating you in an arm wrestling match is being spoon fed a victory. He's bigger, badder, and stronger than you because he worked to get there. Don't get mad at the Rock because you can't be bothered to go out and lift a few weights.

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its like an nba player wanting to compete in a junior high school game.

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Originally Posted by Physic

dont want you ruining the game for everyone lower than you. If it was just you doing it who cares, but it will be the rule rather than the exception.
If they limit drops it would be enough of a deterent for level 50s, but still allow people who just want to explore and see stuff to go in there and murder everything

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If I just want to see an explore, why do I have to take 60 minutes to do it?

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Originally Posted by Physic

would it not be fun to help him, and explore, while actually having some threats to your life? or having a clock ticking on your exploration? to have to do the content multiple times?

To have to fight some gatekeeper NM at the appropriate level to get to the room with the stunning waterfall view, and gold treasure chest?

Having the game put you at a level appropriate level, can add a lot more content, and entertainment than just running through it.

as the game stands most people dont know the tricks and weakness and strengths of many mobs in the game because it simply doesnt matter, because you can just outlevel 90% of the games content. The gatekeeper NM could be the most epic designed monster in the game with special abilities, limit breaks, heck it might be able to summon bahamut, but when the level 50 dude kills it in 3 hits, you would never see that.

people complain battle is boring, and easy, when a lot of that is because they are fighting the monsters when they pose no challenge, the worst part is SE seems to be continously promoting this, then claiming their focus is "Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play." and then caps sp at 10 levels, and allows you to steam roll monster design/placement and strategies by over leveling everything.

they should at the very least limit rewards based on levels in the party.

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that majority are not in here stating that it should be scaled. if that's what they wanted to do that would be fine with me as i could have a challenge and help others. that is not what is happening and people are saying i should not be allowed to help them because my classes are too high or too low. i just don't see how if i enjoy helping another and that person comes and asks me for help that i should be told no i cannot go help them.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I am already 50. I don't need r30 gear to progress.

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you are everyone who plays this game. XIV is sure to stay F2P forever.

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Originally Posted by Physic

its like an nba player wanting to compete in a junior high school game.

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This would be accurate if it was a competition.

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Originally Posted by Richard

for the people with no jobs below the 30's yes. that option is taken out of the game.

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nope, the option is there

the option to not get in the way of those who dont want 50s in their group


people who only want to run with mid level players have that option
people who dont care what ranks people are have that option

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Originally Posted by Richard

you are everyone who plays this game. XIV is sure to stay F2P forever.

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Did I say I was?

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Originally Posted by Physic

it doesnt matter if its epic endgame loot. lets say this dungeon gives epic loot by low chance, and decent loot by high chance. much like NMs. all the value of gear that level is lower if you have easy to obtain gear for that level.

"Hey, dont buy any gear, ill just jump on my 50 spend 14 min and get you a full gear set with an option for super hax gear that will be the best gear till level 36."

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Your assuming to much. We don't know how drop rates will be, we don't know how you obtain gear, we don't know how much of the instance can be cleared in on go, we don't know what the reentry time is and we don't know if there are any penalties for having lv 50s. Your simply assuming that Dungeons can be repeated without a cool down, drop rates are so high that you can get the gear you want in 1 try and that having 50s wont effect drop rate.

Both in FFXIV and in FFXI drop rates have always been horrible, only reason it feels like NMs in XIV dont have a bad drop rate is because they repop within 5mins. for some of the NMs in XIV, i had to kill it 20+ times to get the drop. If the NMs poped on a 2h timer, that would of been 40+ hours of camping straight. Also there are 7 Battle classes in this game, i doubt full set of gear for all the classes will drop in 1 go, so your example does not work. even if a Lv50 can clear it in 14mins, without penalty, there is no guarantee that the item you want is the one that will drop.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

i know right

its people wishing all content was endgame

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

nope, the option is there

the option to not get in the way of those who dont want 50s in their group


people who only want to run with mid level players have that option
people who dont care what ranks people are have that option

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again you are leaving out the people who want to do it at the recommended level but don't have the option to.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but no one is forcing anyone to go into those 30 dungeons with 50 players

thats the beauty of it

you can CHOOSE who is in your party still, or did they somehow take that option out of the game?

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Vedis is a crafter. He actually looks forward to swooping into content aimed at R30 crafters and wrecking the place. Challenge isn't something he focuses on. Just advantage.

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Originally Posted by Richard

you miss the point that there are people who don't have jobs below the 30's and 40's anymore.

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I think he understands the point, but is basically saying to you "why do you want to go into a r30 if you don't have any jobs within level range to benefit from the drops there? Everything will be useless to you. Check out the r50 instead."

Assuming everything in there would not be worthwhile at r50, I would agree with him. Of course, we don't know that to be true. Yet, anyway. If we assume it isn't true, and that some of the gear would actually be useful to people post level 40, then it would still benefit people to run it even if they have all jobs at 50 obviously.

In my opinion, most of the people posting in this thread are actually on the same side. They just don't realize it.

An optional difficulty slider, like starring it as Vedis mentioned, is a great compromise. It prevents content from going unused, which you would think would be ideal for the game maker since they don't have to churn out as much stuff to keep players busy.

I wouldn't subscribe to any arguments that sliders are not an option because people wouldn't use it.

You would think from these forums that everyone here is an alpha that doesn't take crap from anyone. But in game they would allow others to dictate to them how their party is going to go? I would respectfully, if bluntly, submit that people should grow a pair and tell their party mates they don't want to cheese through the dungeon. Or find another party that is willing to use the slider.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

circular arguement

they dont want 30s getting the gear easily
the 50s dont need the gear
then why does it need to be capped?
because they still dont want the 30s getting the gear easily

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Fixed. This is the source of your confusion.

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Originally Posted by Richard

again you are leaving out the people who want to do it at the recommended level but don't have the option to.

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thats an entirely different issue altogether
they chose to level everything past that range already
and they can always make a new character if experiencing it at that range is so important(and its very easy to level it up to that point to do it too)

im sure we'll be getting "Heroic" difficulty sooner or later...lol
(Wich could be fun imo)

Anywayz, please SE dont make everything so freaking Easy,
bring on the FFXI's Dynamis, Sky, Limbus team to make it proper.

Im sure most of us want more challenge, besides it might make us more
busy playing the game rather than bitching & complaining too.

More epic-long fights !

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Fixed. This is the source of your confusion.

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oh how cute, he changed my quote to show that he thinks he knows what hes talking about

facts are still facts

theres on level cap

live with it