Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

edited-------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroRains

Mad and blaming own inadequacies on other things.

---

I'm actually done with the fight. Several times now.

Your turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Mad and blaming own inadequacies on other things.

---

lol your right, being inadequate to voice my concern over content that I've already completed and can fairly review to help benefit future content. To me, it seems your the only one who's upset the majority doesn't agree. Well, back on topic now.

I think it has it's place, to say it's a horrible design and the fight is terrible is going a little far. Especially when so many people enjoy how intense and do or die it is. Do I wish that all fights are like primal fights for the future? No, I hope there is more diverse strategic content as well, but it definitely has it's place and I love it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Stuff

---

You know that a % of players who are against these mechanics are people beating these fights. This whole "learn to dodge" or any variation thereof is just a wall of crap to hide behind. Even people winning the fight say its poorly designed.

"Move on to a new game!" Some of these same people are, like myself, 1.0'rs... we stuck with it through worse than this crap, and its insulting that we should move on.

A BS fight is a BS fight whether it is easy, hard, extreme or in between.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroRains

lol your right, being inadequate to voice my concern over content that I've already completed and can fairly review to help benefit future content. To me, it seems your the only one who's upset the majority doesn't agree. Well, back on topic now.

---

The majority in this thread probably have no idea what goes on during the heart phase because they are busy DFing it. Your only valid point was that ilevel was too low. Interesting...I just spent 30 minutes the other day reviewing ilevel requirements for each fight here.

Why would I be mad about the fight? I like the fact that the majority cannot complete it just yet. It means there is still something to do with the remaining approximate 2 months and 2 weeks till 2.2. I've actually told you I enjoy this fight quite a bit several times throughout this thread.

For someone who has completed the fight, your review is pretty misinformed. Do you really think it is game over if a DPS dies pre-heart? Or even post-heart? lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Citing statistics without citing actual numbers. Whining.

---

What % would that be?

I wonder why I don't see many people whining about Twintania. Surely she has a bunch of BS in there as well if you find Titan contains BS.

The extremes people will go to to defend their inadequacies in quite alarming...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

The majority in this thread probably have no idea what goes on during the heart phase because they are busy DFing it. Your only valid point was that ilevel was too low. Interesting...I just spent 30 minutes the other day reviewing ilevel requirements for each fight here.

Why would I be mad about the fight? I like the fact that the majority cannot complete it just yet. It means there is still something to do with the remaining approximate 2 months and 2 weeks till 2.2. I've actually told you I enjoy this fight quite a bit several times throughout this thread.

For someone who has completed the fight, your review is pretty misinformed. Do you really think it is game over if a DPS dies pre-heart? Or even post-heart? lol

---

You make valid points, to be sure. Don't think I'm completely saying your wrong, because they do have merit. But Yes, if a dps dies and party is close or around bare minimum, its a wipe. Plain and simple. If your busting gear i90 and rocking 7k pally and 5k dps that parse 400+, you bet the fight isn't over. A good fight doesn't mean being 23 item levels higher than content to clear it makes it fun. Yes, the fight requires very minimal mechanics to succeed, but still doesn't qualify it as content deemed hard and rewarding. More of Oh finally cleared it, never looking at it again.

Gear is only a small portion of ability to complete a fight, which includes skill and experience. What I find most disturbing is people flat out denying anyone new to do the Extremes, well how will they learn or do better later in attempts if you deny them completly any participation in the fight due to gear/actual run attempts. Gear is a core/foundation aspect to entering the fight, the rest is skill and somewhat connection.

You cant do shit about Ping, its in every game. tho I am slow sometimes, I listen to the casting sound effects or abilities that Titan do, to predict a movement before it drops down on my screen.

But the fight I hear is absolutely fun and possible with practice. I have yet to do it because I am in no rush.

As for Parsers , they are never 100% correct and have many faults, many Dev's and GM's dont give any credit to there numbers do to the ability to be off. It is a tool simply to guess what your doing. Your parse would be much more accurate for you, than others.

All games are 'artificially' difficult. Dodging is a skill in and of itself. If you can't dodge, you don't have the skill for this particular encounter. Sure, memorising the pattern rotation will help, but it isn't necessary. I still don't remember the rotations, even from HM, because it's not something I need to do. You just need to know how to deal with each of those patterns or events.

If you are expecting a stellar turn out in a Duty Finder with no implicit demands on previous experience or performance, then you'll likely be disappointed. You have three choices to succeed:

1) Take a group who you know can all do the fight
2) Take a group with players who can carry those that aren't great at the fight
3) Take a group with players prepared to put the time in together to learn

It sounds as if your base reference is number 3 and this is always going to be the most difficult option because it's ALWAYS the situation that DF is in and ALWAYS the situation DF doesn't want to be in. But it's ultimately the player's choice. Although it's good the option is available, I don't think the DF is how Titan Ex (or even HM) is primarily intended to be completed.

Groups in i80/i90 are not struggling to complete this fight. Groups with multiple players still unable to dodge the abilities and deal with adds and tank switches are struggling to complete this fight. There's a difference. Yes, running Titan Ex in shitty gear is probably a bad idea. Whoop dee doo. But I promise you that the reason players fail is, for the most part, not because of gear.

You keep insisting the only way to have valid difficult content is by making it based on decision making. You like one type of content, we get that. But not everyone consistently likes the same thing. I personally like variation and that my skills are tested in different ways. Decision making is certainly one of those, but being able to perform a dexterous role while under intense pressure is another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Question

---

Answer: Twintania has things that have been discussed by others.... >>>>Options<<<<

How many do we want to stack for fireball, do we want to feed a fireball and DS (edited, wrote divebomb cuz i was ranting.) to every other conflag? Are we gonna run around individually to neurolinks when we get the orb, or gonna tank her on top of one and have the OT eat them? If he gets liquid hell, do we move Twin or just have people run to the links til the ground under her is clear again? Melee DPS on the main snake or help with the first two babies? On the hill or center-to-side to dodge divebomb? And there are more... but that should be sufficient.

Find me the options in titan, plzthx.

Stack > move > re-stack > re-move > re-stack > re-move.

Oh, another edit: I said % cuz I don't have actual numbers, but it's at least two people, which makes it a percentage. I was not even misleading about anything, nor did I use any actual (inherently woulda been wrong) numbers. Don't be a D-bag; try to make valid points instead of trying to use non-logical arguments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kettle

All games are 'artificially' difficult. Dodging is a skill in and of itself. If you can't dodge, you don't have the skill for this particular encounter. Sure, memorising the pattern rotation will help, but it isn't necessary. I still don't remember the rotations, even from HM, because it's not something I need to do. You just need to know how to deal with each of those patterns or events.

If you are expecting a stellar turn out in a Duty Finder with no implicit demands on previous experience or performance, then you'll likely be disappointed. You have three choices to succeed:

1) Take a group who you know can all do the fight
2) Take a group with players who can carry those that aren't great at the fight
3) Take a group with players prepared to put the time in together to learn

It sounds as if your base reference is number 3 and this is always going to be the most difficult option. But it's ultimately the player's choice. Although it's good the option is available, I don't think the DF is how Titan Ex (or even HM) is primarily intended to be completed.

Groups in i80/i90 are not struggling to complete this fight. Groups with multiple players still unable to dodge the abilities and deal with adds and tank switches are struggling to complete this fight. There's a difference. Yes, running Titan Ex in shitty gear is probably a bad idea. Whoop dee doo. But I promise you that the reason you are failing is not because of gear.

You keep insisting the only way to have valid difficult content is by making it based on decision making. You like one type of content, we get that. But not everyone consistently likes the same thing. I personally like variation and that my skills are tested in different ways. Decision making is certainly one of those, but being able to perform a dexterous role while under intense pressure is another.

---

This is interesting. I'd like to clear a few things to make sure I understand what you mean, if you don't mind.

What you call "dexterous role" and aparently oppose to "decision making", I understand it as basically "reflex action" (where the rapidity of your reflex is tested rather than what you are doing. Please do correct me if I misunderstood.

I would also like to know what you mean when you say "dodging is a skill in and of itself". What "skill" exactly? Because as I understand it, dodging means: 1) percieve the threat 2) moving to avoid it. Aside from reaction time, what "skill" does it require?

I do agree with you about the DF part: it would seem logical that the most difficult battles in the game were made for team effort and therefore be hard to PUG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroRains

You make valid points, to be sure. But Yes, if a dps dies and party is close or around bare minimum, its a wipe. Plain and simple. If your busting gear i90 and rocking 7k pally and 5k dps that parse 400+, you bet the fight isn't over. A good fight doesn't mean being 23 item levels higher than content to clear it makes it fun. Yes, the fight requires very minimal mechanics to succeed, but still doesn't qualify it as content deemed hard and rewarding. More of Oh finally cleared it, never looking at it again.

---

Then talk about ilevel requirements in general and not just for this specific fight. Notice in the thread I posted in? Several of the fights could use huge adjustments to be playable in DF. I'm well aware of this.

The game has been out for a while now. Many people are approaching i90 with mythology alone. If you acknowledge that SE made a blunder in setting the ilevel too low for most of the new (and old) DF content, then you obviously have a notion about where the ilevel should be set at to do the fight smoothly. To me, the extremes are probably up there at i78-i85. Can be done with less? Sure. Do I believe the development team equipped iwhatever gear and did these fights with the bare minimum? Yes. Are they also the people who developed the fight? Yes so they probably should have bumped up the ilevel by 10 levels or so after determining their own bare minimum.

What I'm saying is that many of the primal fights have never been DF friendly (pre 2.1/post 2.1) and continue to still not be. Instead of saying the fight is BS, focus more on the ilevel requirement for the normal DF player.

However, your first post in this thread as the OP was about instant kill mechanics. This simply isn't true. Ever been stun locked by a dreadknight who dies as he goes to stun another player? It disabled you for the rest of the Twintania encounter unless you are lucky enough to die. It removes you from the battlefield for all intents and purposes. In some cases, casting a raise during Twin can't be done due to positioning and mana constraints. If a DPS dies during twister phase, you have a very high probability of wiping due to dreadknights which are instant kill themselves. Do you find Twin fun, though? I personally do.

Now, how about the other extremes? I don't find Garuda fun at all due to aggro mechanics of the spiny plume. It causes more wipes than it should. I also do not like the nature of double whicked. Chances of a DF group understanding this fight in 60 minutes are very low. Most people will tell you, though, that Garuda is an easy fight and even 'fun'. Same with Ifrit. But both of them also use a set rotation that requires precise execution or you will wipe. I feel like Titan is getting the brunt of your attacks because his rotation appears faster than the other two. Why can't you view them as fights that stress different things? Garuda stresses tank communication the most. Titan stresses raid awareness the most. Ifrit stresses healer communication the most.

You find raid awareness difficult because it requires reliance on other members. Isn't this the problem with any DF fight, though? You're all strangers. No one knows each other. You need to all be aware and on the same page or it won't work: not exclusive to Titan Ex at all.

You are looking for a solution to a specific problem when there is a much larger one presented that is not being addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Find me the options in titan, plzthx.

Oh, another edit: I said % cuz I don't have actual numbers, but it's at least two people, which makes it a percentage. I was not even misleading about anything, nor did I use any actual (inherently woulda been wrong) numbers. Don't be a D-bag; try to make valid points instead of trying to use non-logical arguments.

---

1) Read posts thoroughly when the information is readily available to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Anyone who has done this fight knows there is strategy. Do you let the healer or DPS go in or out for double gaols? Do you break the healer or DPS out first? Which method do you use to dodge the cross bombs? How do you utilize LB? How do you utilize tank CDs like hallowed and holmgang? How do you decide which bomb to kill on the gigantic bomb + plume + geocrush? How many people can die before you call it a wipe? Do you take 2 healers or 1 healer and 5 DPS? What method do you use to avoid weights? How do you optimize your strategy to help people with specific job requirements succeed (casters, melee DPS)? How many stacks do you let the tank take until you swap? Can your DPS communicate so that you do not push Titan into another phase during an inopportune time like after a stomp or upheaval?

It's like I'm talking to people who have no idea what they're talking about due to lack of experience. If a DPS dies before the heart, you raise them. 2 of our Titan kills have been with a DPS who was dead all throughout the heart/post heart phase due to a landslide. One of our kills was done with FIVE people dying and being brought back with raise. It's almost like the people in this thread should read the WHM swiftcast thread.

---

2) I'll try to refrain from using 'non-logical' arguments if you will refrain from using illogical arguments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

More blablah

---

Your non-logical argument was when you attacked my numbers, unsuccessfully. I'll give you credit for "where does the healer go" and other than that everything you listed is stack > move > stack > move.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Find me the options in titan, plzthx.

---

Where should we put the gaols? How do we want to bait landslides for a given bomb pattern? When should we do tank swaps to make it the smoothest? How should we split DPS on jailers? Which bomb should we remove? When should PLDs use Tempered Will to prevent knockbacks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Non-logical

---

You provided numbers? When was this?

So LB is stack > move > stack > move. Stacking is a strategy, you know? :) Moving to specific locations is also one. Choosing party composition alters your strategy as well.

I see you're busy grasping at straws, though. I'll leave you and your 'non-logical' arguments to others who are more bored than I am at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billie21

I would also like to know what you mean when you say "dodging is a skill in and of itself". What "skill" exactly? Because as I understand it, dodging means: 1) percieve the threat 2) moving to avoid it. Aside from reaction time, what "skill" does it require?

---

What is 'skill'?

skill [skil]
noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

Seems to be linked to decision making. Do you continue to cast a spell knowing something is coming up that you need to dodge or do you cancel the cast and prepare to dodge? Decision made, skill associated with dodging. Ever notice that certain members in your group die more often than others? If dodging were not a skill, they would either all die or all live. People seem to think dodging is not a skill because it is more heavily influenced by other factors. Does that suddenly make it not a skill, though? No.

Decision making is a huge part of many classes/jobs in this game. Your ability to make informed decisions is what I would consider skill. Your ability to move out of something you know is coming is, therefore, a skill.

You're desperately seeking decisions that are not there.

Gaols, apart, and i credited the "where does the healer go" already.

You bait landslides by.... wait for it... stack > move > stack.

You don't have a bunch of freedom to decide tank swaps. Magic number > swap.

Split DPS on gaolers... wait what? I suppose you might end up with all melee, somehow, especially in PUG, but have you seen how fast they die to even one DPS?

Which bomb... > move > stack. . . the one you stack on.

Use tempered will if someone screws up and gets you targeted with an unavoidable landslide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

You provided numbers? When was this?

---

I said % and said I did NOT USE NUMBERS. And you talk about my made up statistics.... I didn't use any; FFS. Please tell me you're trollin with that cuz if so... 7/10.

lol gotta admit the back and forth in this thread is pretty fun to read

Titan fights, NM/HM/EM are fun. not sure what the fuss is about. Pretty sure Demon Wall also has this mechanic. So it's not like it's a lone task.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Your non-logical argument was when you attacked my numbers

---

I believe this implies you have numbers. I attacked them, so you say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Answer: Twintania has things that have been discussed by others.... >>>>Options<<<<

How many do we want to stack for fireball, do we want to feed a fireball and DS (edited, wrote divebomb cuz i was ranting.) to every other conflag? Are we gonna run around individually to neurolinks when we get the orb, or gonna tank her on top of one and have the OT eat them? If he gets liquid hell, do we move Twin or just have people run to the links til the ground under her is clear again? Melee DPS on the main snake or help with the first two babies? On the hill or center-to-side to dodge divebomb? And there are more... but that should be sufficient.

Stack > move > re-stack > re-move > re-stack > re-move.

---

So basically Twintania is stack > move > stack > move > stack > move. Gotcha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Anyone who has done this fight knows there is strategy. Do you let the healer or DPS go in or out for double gaols? Do you break the healer or DPS out first? Which method do you use to dodge the cross bombs? How do you utilize LB? How do you utilize tank CDs like hallowed and holmgang? How do you decide which bomb to kill on the gigantic bomb + plume + geocrush? How many people can die before you call it a wipe? Do you take 2 healers or 1 healer and 5 DPS? What method do you use to avoid weights? How do you optimize your strategy to help people with specific job requirements succeed (casters, melee DPS)? How many stacks do you let the tank take until you swap? Can your DPS communicate so that you do not push Titan into another phase during an inopportune time like after a stomp or upheaval?

---

So let's go over which are not actual stack > move mechanics:

1) Deciding where gaols are placed
2) Which gaol is broken first and if you split DPS on gaols (ranged on far one, melee on close one) or not
3) Methods for dodging cross bombs vary. There are several different 'safe' bombs so stacking isn't necessary and is actually beneficial not to place everyone on the same bomb in some strategies
4) When your tank uses hallowed/holm is independent of stacking or moving. For instance, our tanks generally save it for the add phase when healers are hard-pressed.
5) Do you melee LB a bomb or Titan? Do you AoE LB? Do you even have an AoE LB? Do you use tank LB to mitigate bomb damage instead. Where is LB dependent on stacking or moving?
6) # of people who die before you call a wipe is independent of stacking or moving
7) Party composition is independent of stacking or moving: it changes your strategy entirely (in other words, kill Titan before the big set of bombs goes off/as they go off)
8) Do you have everyone stack for weights or spread out along the arena and move inwards? Oh look! A strategy regarding stacking tactics
9) Do your DPS know when to stop so that Titan isn't pushed prematurely into another phase when the healers aren't ready/people aren't topped off?

Many of these are independent of movement or stacking. Anything else you'd like to add or is it just un-logic/non-logic from here on out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

Heh

---

What was that you were saying about grasping? I'm going to bed, but ty for the fun. Your posts make me chuckle. I've said it in other posts (in various threads), I'll say it in this one. When you start attacking semantics, you're out of points to make. So it's a good a time as any for sleep.

Good night, Neverland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

What is 'skill'?

skill [skil]
noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

Seems to be linked to decision making. Do you continue to cast a spell knowing something is coming up that you need to dodge or do you cancel the cast and prepare to dodge? Decision made, skill associated with dodging. Ever notice that certain members in your group die more often than others? If dodging were not a skill, they would either all die or all live. People seem to think dodging is not a skill because it is more heavily influenced by other factors. Does that suddenly make it not a skill, though? No.

Decision making is a huge part of many classes/jobs in this game. Your ability to make informed decisions is what I would consider skill. Your ability to move out of something you know is coming is, therefore, a skill.

---

Kettle seemed to oppose decision making to dexterity, as well as Ttan EX to other fights. Therefore, I assumed the meant something other than decision making. But thank you for trying.
She also said that you did not need to know the fight by heart to win it which would imply that you don't need to know what is coming before it actually happens.



PS: You know, it's a shame that most of your messages on this thread consist in saying you have a bigger one/demeaning people/being derisive and hypocritical, because every so often you do make some interesting and constructive posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

<snip>

---

For the sake of this silly argument I think it's reasonable to define a choice as a situation that has multiple correct but distinct solutions. Breaking out healer first vs. a DPS is such a choice. As are all the other choices I listed. You can simply say "everyone should do it <this> way therefor there are no choices" but I can say the same about Twintania.

guess you are just bad, with the latency changes it's actually easier to dodge in extreme than it was in the hard mode

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroRains

lol gotta admit the back and forth in this thread is pretty fun to read

---

Ya, at least ppl are producing good stuff. Not telling ppl to go play other games and claiming their 1337 farming content runs.



DAMNIT IT JINXED IT :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billie21

I understand it as basically "reflex action" (where the rapidity of your reflex is tested rather than what you are doing. Please do correct me if I misunderstood.

---

I don't think they necessarily oppose and actually both appear in a fight like Titan. I was just trying to rationalise the difference the OP was making in comparing Twin to Titan. If I was to express my own view of the differences, it'd probably be with Twin being a traditional raid boss and Titan being a fun arcade game. What the OP is essentially saying though is 'Please only make the type of content I like', which in some respects is understandable, but in others, bollocks.

There are certainly some reflexes required on titan HM /Ex, but those reflexes often require a decision to be made at the same time. Has a Landslide been placed down unusually? Which direction have line bombs been placed? Is there anything else going on I should be aware of (healer positioning / Gaols coming?). Being able to make those decisions, react and survive is something some find harder to do (clearly - else we would not be having this discussion). Players who react and move robotically and can't react to change are those that most often die. Being able to make decisions, survive, adapt where necessary and perform a role optimally* is something some people find even more difficult to do. It requires a certain amount of dexterity, situational awareness and, as you say, reflexes. I'd certainly consider that a skill. People aren't finding this fight difficult because it is 'unfair'.

*and this is almost a pre-requisite for extreme primals, which is where I expect the problem lies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billie21

Kettle seemed to oppose decision making to dexterity, as well as Ttan EX to other fights. Therefore, I assumed the meant something other than decision making. But thank you for trying.
She also said that you did not need to know the fight by heart to win it which would imply that you don't need to know what is coming before it actually happens.

---

He/she is actually right. When I go to DF Titan HM, I don't think many players have any idea what they're doing. Some will drop plumes right on me and I have to move the moment they do when I'm not expecting them at all. There is always an escape route for plumes. Can you spot it in time and move/sprint to it? How about using class moves to get out of situations like that? Things like aetherial manipulation, when used right, can help you avoid many situations but require very fast reflexes. Have you ever seen a MNK shoulder tackle back onto the arena after he was clearly landslided off it? I have. Again, fast reflexes/thinking differentiate him from other MNKs. Most people cannot do this. I believe this is what he/she was referring to.

It's also a shame that you seem to harp on server delay so much. Most people are aware it exists and work with it. There is nothing wrong with the game: just something wrong with your expectations about how the servers should function.

I'm a pretty level-headed player. If people wish to use extremes in their retorts as hyperbole, I don't see why I shouldn't go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view me as anyways. Preconceived notions, misjudging a player based on a handful of posts, and all that other nonsense you know? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

What was that you were saying about grasping? I'm going to bed, but ty for the fun. Your posts make me chuckle. I've said it in other posts (in various threads), I'll say it in this one. When you start attacking semantics, you're out of points to make. So it's a good a time as any for sleep.

---

I guess that's a good way to bow out of an argument when you have no other points. :X

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

Ya, at least ppl are producing good stuff. Not telling ppl to go play other games and claiming their 1337 farming content runs.

DAMNIT IT JINXED IT :(

---

Yeah...I'd hate for people to cite their farming experience in other 1337 content that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroRains

I clear twintania weekly, and even twisters aren't as punishing as landslide.

---

Oh darn look at that. First post, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

He/she is actually right. When I go to DF Titan HM, I don't think many players have any idea what they're doing. Some will drop plumes right on me and I have to move the moment they do when I'm not expecting them at all. There is always an escape route for plumes. Can you spot it in time and move/sprint to it? How about using class moves to get out of situations like that? Things like aetherial manipulation, when used right, can help you avoid many situations but require very fast reflexes. Have you ever seen a MNK shoulder tackle back onto the arena after he was clearly landslided off it? I have. Again, fast reflexes/thinking differentiate him from other MNKs. Most people cannot do this. I believe this is what he/she was referring to.

It's also a shame that you seem to harp on server delay so much. Most people are aware it exists and work with it. There is nothing wrong with the game: just something wrong with your expectations about how the servers should function.

I'm a pretty level-headed player. If people wish to use extremes in their retorts as hyperbole, I don't see why I shouldn't go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view me as anyways. Preconceived notions, misjudging a player based on a handful of posts, and all that other nonsense you know? :)

---

Thanks, this does make sense.


I am "harping" about delay, as you say it, because Kettle and you (as well as others) all this require fast reaction/decision making. Which cannot happen when delay comes into play, since you only get the information afterwards (when it's too late to take action). Thus completely ruining the point of the exercise (only way to overcome the trial is to learn it by heart, relying on your memory rather than reflexes and spit second decision making).

My expectations of how the server/game should function is simply that it should function at all.
For those mechanics to be enjoyable, they need to function properly (i.e: you get the information in time to react, and the server gets the info of your reaction and doesn't cancel it because his decision was already made before it happened).
If a server can not function in such a way for these mechanics to work, then the game should have different mechanics, that can work with the state of the server/network/the game's netcode/etc...


My point was that the design choices for this fight are actually "punishing", rather than "difficult" (because of the delay problem).
Again, the video that was linked (about the whole "punishing" vs "difficult") is quite eloquent (which is why it has been linked).


PS: I could give you reasons why you should not go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view you as, one of which would be to avoid ruining a potentially interesting discussion by overflowing it with petty arguments. Another would be to avoid discrediting your own arguments -but I gues that's your personal choice to make).

Ok so I want you to imagine that you are watching a movie. You finish the movie and decide to watch it again. This time, however, the movie is sped up a little bit so events occur faster than what you remember the first time you watched the movie. So, when you expect something to happen in the sped up movie, the only reference point you have is your previous experience with the slower movie. Therefore, you can make an informed guess as to when something is going to happen in the sped up movie but you are not 100% sure.

I feel this is the disconnect we are experiencing. This delay is the sped up movie. I GENERALLY know what is going to happen next but, due to how the server works, I am not 100% sure of when it will happen. I have a vague idea. Even though I know something is coming up, I still need to be ready to react instantly because it could either be behind the expected value or ahead of time.

You are right when you say memory plays a part in this. But I believe you are incorrect if you say reaction is not involved at all. It's like you completely ignore the memory aspect and assume that people will have no time to react as a result.

Let me give you a great example. Familiar with Twintania? There is a section of the fight where she flies up in the air and everyone has to stack (stacking in Twintania? crazy I know). After a brief moment, a random person gets an icon over their head and you must MOVE from your spot or you will get hit by her divebomb. She does this three times and then spawns three snakes for you to deal with. You have a brief window till she comes back down and does another set of divebombs. This window is substantially larger than the first set of divebombs.

So, you have memory of this attack because you've seen it in the past. You could even make a macro or use an application to tell you when she is about to come down for the second wave of divebombs. But before all this, the method I used was to simply zoom in and look/listen for the icon to appear above the players head and then move. If your reaction was slow, you would get hit by a divebomb.

This should tell you that there are mechanics in this game that rely on reaction time. Some may argue that there aren't any in Titan because he is scripted but the fight doesn't always proceed as planned. Sometimes you need to improvise...which is what Kettle was getting at. If you memorize his pattern, great: you know how to do the fight without thinking IF everything goes perfectly. What happens when it doesn't? Can you adapt? Will you have the reactions to cover the slack when things go awry?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

et me give you a great example. Familiar with Twintania? There is a section of the fight where she flies up in the air and everyone has to stack (stacking in Twintania? crazy I know). After a brief moment, a random person gets an icon over their head and you must MOVE from your spot or you will get hit by her divebomb. She does this three times and then spawns three snakes for you to deal with. You have a brief window till she comes back down and does another set of divebombs. This window is substantially larger than the first set of divebombs.

---

Isn't just a wonder that the majority of people stuck on twintania just happens to be at divebombs and snakes?The only mechanic that is seemingly random if it hits you when you were sure you were out of its range? Don't even bring divebombs and try to say it's a great mechanic. Its honestly the worst phase in the entire fight, because again its not a group effort, all CAN YOU THE INDIVIDUAL DODGE THE BOMB? Titan is just 6 or 7 phases worth of divebombs instead of one.

I'll give you an example: in Dzemael's second boss, I start running as soon as the adds join the fight. This way, when the aoes pop, they are already behind me (I'm out of it before they even appear). If I don't, I cannot possibly dodge them. Delay means I get hit every time if I wait for the aoe to pop before moving.

So this fight which has so many fast aoes to dodge, ends up no requiring any fast reaction from me, none of the skills dodging would be mobilising are actually used. I just run during the whole fight (yes, the delay was the main reason I switched to BRD).
This is an example of how it distorts the whole point of the exercise.

Again, what would you have her do?. "move faster" maybe, but the screen clearly is showing something different from what is actually happening.
Since you only appear to be an elitist *** when provoked, and are, in fact, levelheaded, you will have read my post (the big one) and noticed that I didn't dismiss memory entirely. I even guessed that these encounters were designed to be done multiple times.

Again, the matter lies in the degree to which you rely on your foreknowledge or your speed. It's obviously always a mix of both.
Ideally, it's as you describe. You have a general idea of what's coming next, so you are prepared to react. In reality,the delay often means you have to react before anything happens.
The longer the delay, the more you have to rely on memory, and less on your speed (because the info arrives too late).
For such a fight, that would mean moving when you know a landslide is going to happen, even though it hasn't happened yet, so that when it does show up on the screen, you've already dodged it (like my example in Dzemael).

In such a context, someone trying to take on a new "challenge" will be frustrated by failure instead of stimulated, because failure doesn't feel like you did something wrong and can improve, but rather that the game is punishing you/tricking you.
Only way to overcome this is memorizing then moving pre-emptively. Sadly, doing this can be rather disappointing for people who expected another kind of challenge (the kind you are describing).


And I've reach the max messages I can post, so this is my last message for today.

Sometimes crap don't sink. Some people out there love crap. That doesn't mean it isn't crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

Can someone that play a lot of mmos answer me this.

Is FFXIV as bad as other mmos when it comes to buying runs? Like to the point where bigger FCs act like they're gil sellers spamming to sell runs.

---

Yes. Esp. Titan HM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

Yes. Esp. Titan HM.

---

Ya, Titan sells got out of hand... even on legacy server I'm on. I personally was caught by suprised

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Next year: Leviathan super mega EXTREME! A ten hour fight and you can't screw up once or you DIE!

---

2 words for you: Pandemonium Warden
Look it up ^^ (it's FFXI related)

It's like reading forums from XIV:1.0.
The "elites" are self entitled because they have gotten so use to working with server lag, they think it is "normal" and it keeps the "scrubs" off their game.

Hint: Your wrong, and you are the minority. Shocking, I know... I hope us"casuals" ruin this game for you, because honestly, the forums and the in-game community would be a lot less toxic with you gone.

Lag and delay aside, I love the fight, it's dynamic and different, there's fights with heavy mechanics, fights that are pure DPS checks, and fights like this that are a dodgethon.

Titan is one of the few, if not the only, raid bosses I've not gotten tired of repeating in an MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArtEmisPalmecia

It's like reading forums from XIV:1.0.
The "elites" are self entitled because they have gotten so use to working with server lag, they think it is "normal" and it keeps the "scrubs" off their game.

Hint: Your wrong, and you are the minority. Shocking, I know... I hope us"casuals" ruin this game for you, because honestly, the forums and the in-game community would be a lot less toxic with you gone.

---

If only you'd said 'slap in the face' at some point, this would have been a pretty high Bad Post Bingo score.

The fight itself is very similar to Titan HM... If you can clear that with not much difficulty I would think it wouldn't be that hard to clear it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kettle

If only you'd said 'slap in the face' at some point, this would have been a pretty high Bad Post Bingo score.

---

Awww, did I struck a nerve? It seems so.