M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

using paladins as healers is not the same as not having healers.

The only thing to come of this will be nerfing paladin healing.

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You think that, but the dev's might just buff War's healing instead.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

using paladins as healers is not the same as not having healers.

The only thing to come of this will be nerfing paladin healing.

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I point to MNK in this regard.
Nerfed Mantra to 10% from 20%
Given Earth's Reply that totally invalidate the nerf.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Based on the decisions the FFXIV Dev's have made over the last few expansions, it might very well be rocket science to them.

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Do we actually know who the job designers are specifically for any given expansion?

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

using paladins as healers is not the same as not having healers.

The only thing to come of this will be nerfing paladin healing.

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its really just this. they'd have to remove the healing aspect of divine veil and shake it off and this wouldn't be possible again.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I am not being aggressive I am being blunt. The game is false advertising if it possible to clear current content without healers and whatever justification you write down means nothing, either cbu3 needs to destroy the trinity and move on to having all Jobs be hybrid or fix the trinity. People take someone speaking bluntly as aggressive which is something I can't help, I don't actually really care all that much if healers are deleted from the game I just want CBU3 to give us clear direction before we end up with a complete mess of a game.

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To be clear, I think you're being aggressive but I also don't think that's a bad thing. Blunt factors right into aggressive with me. Either way I agree with you in full.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I am not being aggressive I am being blunt. The game is false advertising if it possible to clear current content without healers and whatever justification you write down means nothing, either cbu3 needs to destroy the trinity and move on to having all Jobs be hybrid or fix the trinity. People take someone speaking bluntly as aggressive which is something I can't help, I don't actually really care all that much if healers are deleted from the game I just want CBU3 to give us clear direction before we end up with a complete mess of a game.

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My problem isn't really you being aggressive, my problem is why you quote my post and attached an aggressive rant that has nothing to do with it. Like ... seriously, in the post you quote I wasn't even talking about healer whatsoever.

You can go off the rail and that's fine, I'm just questioning why doing it in my face? You can be blunt as long as you hit the target, but this feels more like you're just making random swing at people. Again, this is the post that you quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I feel like this is just a false assumption. Are you saying just because you're good at something, you won't be using something that make it easier for you?

When I do PF, sometime I make macro to call out stuff like (in/out) or (partner/spread) if I keep seeing people make mistake, so obviously I'm capable of tracking them.

But that doesn't mean I feel much more comfortable whenever I play with static and have a dedicated caller.

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So again, the heck that have anything to do with your rant?

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

using paladins as healers is not the same as not having healers.

The only thing to come of this will be nerfing paladin healing.

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People already pointed out that they released the log for that clear and it not like Paladin were going out of their way to be healer. They weren't spamming clemency or anything.

the reason for the 3 paladin was the triple cover play due to no tank LB.
Bonus point for keeping 4 supports and 4 dps to keep the myriad of pair mechanics in the fight consistent.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

My problem isn't really you being aggressive, my problem is why you quote my post and attached an aggressive rant that has nothing to do with it. Like ... seriously, in the post you quote I wasn't even talking about healer whatsoever.

You can go off the rail and that's fine, I'm just questioning why doing it in my face? You can be blunt as long as you hit the target, but this feels more like you're just making random swing at people. Again, this is the post that you quote:



So again, the heck that have anything to do with your rant?

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It's simple you can say what you like but it doesn't matter what justification you have, the game is advertised as a trinity mmo, the trinity is broken, either fix it or remove it. This is current content if it was an old savage tier it wouldnt be a problem but having it this unbalanced means one of the main design choices of the game is broken.

I'm responding to your reply because you're making the excuse "PF can't do it, I'm personally more comfortable with call outs." Whatever, obsessed with the third party software. My point is that doesn't matter because the current hardest content shouldn't be able to be cleared without healers and that whatever your opinion on this doesn't matter because the game's design is broken. It doesn't matter if you weren't talking about healers, you were talking about the clear without healers.

Also aggressive implies I'm attacking you, I'm not I'm stating an opinion on poor game design bluntly and stating the fact that something is broken in the game so whatever opinion you have on it doesn't change the fact it's broken. People take discussion about a video game way too personally.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Did you actually watch the video, the party had cactbot running the entire time yelling out the mechanics, they did nothing fancy with the mechanics (like how the healer less TOP clear had to rezz sacc the RDM on magic number) and they even had two people die on canons and they still didn’t even see soft enrage

This is like your average mid tier static reclear tier quality effort from the party members. Following a mit plan and not taking extra damage really isn’t some monumental achievement. The only reason an average person isn’t doing this is because hector guides PF braindead follows don’t use non standard comps

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I looked at the log because I assumed they were good players and didn't cheat. If anything that makes it worse than the "they're elite players" argument. If you need cheats to do anything then I couldn't care less about what it was because I already think it's dogshit.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

It's simple you can say what you like but it doesn't matter what justification you have, the game is advertised as a trinity mmo, the trinity is broken, either fix it or remove it. This is current content if it was an old savage tier it wouldnt be a problem but having it this unbalanced means one of the main design choices of the game is broken.

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Again, that had nothing to do with what I said.

I wasn't talking about healer.

I wasn't talking about trinity.

And for the last time, I already pointed out the flaw of SE's vision of the trinity in other posts, so it's not like I'm even defending the system.

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I'm responding to your reply because you're making the excuse "PF can't do it, I'm personally more comfortable with call outs." Whatever, obsessed with the third party software.

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Except I'm not. I'm just pointing the illogical assumption of the poster I quoted. Just because some drive a car, doesn't mean they're too lazy to walk. Just because someone use a calculator, doesn't mean they don't know how to do basic math. It may be the case it may be not, I simply point out to the other poster it's an erogenous assumption. that's all, and it has nothing related to your rant.

And it's irrelevant at this point because this is like your 3th replied, your first reply mentioned nothing of the sort.

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Also aggressive implies I'm attacking you, I'm not I'm stating an opinion on poor game design bluntly and stating the fact that something is broken in the game so whatever opinion you have on it doesn't change the fact it's broken. People take discussion about a video game way too personally.

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So what make you think you need to quote a completely irrelevant message to state your opinion?

You're just trying really hard not to take ownership of what you said, seem a bit hypocritical with all the air you putting up.

I didn't ask you to NOT be aggressive, I wasn't even the first person who said you came across as aggressive.

What I want to say is if you gonna quote someone, then reply with thing that related to the quote, especially if you gonna be aggressive about it.

Yet here you are, 3 replies later, still trying to run in circle putting up air instead of simply taking ownership of what you - at this point I gonna assume - a misquote.

If 2 people debating politic and one get aggressive, not ideal but understandable. But this is like I'm talking about the weather and you coming at me with a sexism rant/accusation.

Like ... holy crap, "replying to what you quote with something relevance" is such a difficult concept? Being blunt has no relevancy to it.

I feel like koko wasn't making a false assumption. They said "if you need a plugin". That means, maybe you do on don't. Needing it would imply you can't accomplish the task without it. So I don't see a problem with the wording.

That said, I don't feel that it was that big of a comment on skill level, but it could be interpreted it that way

Conversation was-- doesn't matter, plugins only prove the point more. Jumping in to say someone using plugins doesn't mean that they are bad necessarily kind of seems like a defense that isn't contributing to the discussion

People who are incapable of clearing Honey B complaining that the games elite players did a crazy challenge.

This sort of thing should be celebrated but you guys are denigrating their achievement.

Very specific non-standard comp (just because some guy said that as a meme doesn't mean it isn't true)
They didn't do this by accident in 1 pull. Whole fight down to the gcd was meticulously planned out.

I'll accept criticism posts from people who go away and do this themselves.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

People who are incapable of clearing Honey B complaining that the games elite players did a crazy challenge.

This sort of thing should be celebrated but you guys are denigrating their achievement.

Very specific non-standard comp (just because some guy said that as a meme doesn't mean it isn't true)
They didn't do this by accident in 1 pull. Whole fight down to the gcd was meticulously planned out.

I'll accept criticism posts from people who go away and do this themselves.

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“Whole fight meticulously planned down to the GCD”

My brother in Christ they failed 4 seperate mechanics and 2 people died and they had cactbot running

You heard it here first. Celebrate cactbot. Elite players. Lmao.

No wonder XIV is in the state it is in, when its core base can longer perceive something is broken.

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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You see, For some reason people are only happy when tank are op for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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I think it has something to do with players are afraid they will be benched for playing a certain job. I do not think anyone wants to go back to that time. I do not pug often but for the most part unless a class is grossly under performing people will accept every job.

Remember back in the day that was not the case. Say they give two play styles to healers. One easier akin to WHM and SGE, and then make SCH and AST have more depth and extra things to do. Say if they make WHM and SGE more selfish healers not much group utility and make AST and SCH give more group utility to help fill out their kit like party buffs they have the manage or something.

Unless WHM or SGE personal damage out paces what AST or SCH can do with their utility people will be like why bring WHM or SGE? But if WHM or SGE can match what AST and SCH do people will be like what is the point of AST or SCH if they can do our job with much less effort.

I think their was a time when people did complain about how easier jobs did the same or equal damage to jobs that required more perceived effort. This is a balance dilemma that is not exactly easy to fix. Someone will be unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

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Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG. I do not a pld alone can do healing more effectively as a healer it just so happens when you get a bunch of roles that have a degree of sustain and utility it can match what a healer can do.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

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It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

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tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

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Because the tank heals are more suited to the actual method of healing that’s encouraged in 14

Let’s take PLD, PLD has 3 mitigations, one of them is a shield, very strong self rotational healing and 2 forms of the same mitigation that can either heal itself or heal others

So it excels at mitigating big hits on the party that the game loves to use (the only 2 classes that have more mitigation than PLD are the literal shield healers), it excels at healing itself when it’s taking damage given literally none of its commonly used heals cost DPS (hell HS is neutral and the magic heals are a DPS GAIN to press) and it excels at healing others as it loses functionally nothing to pressing intervention to heal another as they rarely need HS to heal themselves and their overheal is far less than the true healers because they don’t waste healing on healing everything with AOE heals when they don’t need to

GNB basically mirrors PLD but trades worse AOE mitigation for better shareable defensives and WAR is just WAR

The tanks are 100% better self healers than the healers and while they can’t rival the thereotical HPS of the healers they are just as effective at the eHPS needed to clear the fight

Theoretical HPS bloat of the healers isn’t useful when it isn’t needed

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

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Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG.

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Yet it has gone overboard to the point that tanks no longer need healers at all, and they don't need damage dealers unless there is a DPS check to beat that tank DPS can't handle.

If a tank dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect the tank quickly (if they haven't just used their Swiftcast), tank can provoke as soon as they're up and wipe is averted.

If a damage dealer dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect them quickly to contribute to any DPS check the party needs to pass to avoid a wipe.

If a healer dies, who is there to resurrect the healer? Either the party has RDM or SMN, or the healer remains dead.

The answer isn't to give other roles multiple tools to handle healing and mitigation. The answer is to give the other roles a tool to resurrect the healer so they can perform their role just as the healer is able to resurrect the other roles so they can do theirs.

That's not to say that the other roles should have no tools for healing and mitigation. But those tools should be rare with moderate length recast time (90-120 seconds) and should apply to self only (outside of tanks getting a party wide mitigation tool to use, which would be appropriate for their role).

The utility that damage dealers get should be related to dealing damage. Increase the damage done by self and party members. Debuff the boss to reduce their damage dealt and/or increase damage taken. I'm old school enough I would love to see crowd control make a comeback for some boss fights and having damage dealers responsible for that.

The job design team needs to step back and remember the point of each role in the trinity. Tanks generate enmity so the majority of incoming damage is directed at them, then mitigate the damage received so they can survive long enough to get needed healing from healers. Damage dealers deal damage to all enemies while doing their best to avoid avoidable damage. They likewise should be relying on healers to handle unavoidable damage plus any additional damage taken due to errors.

If they're going to keep giving a single role more and more tools then design encounters so the other roles are only relevant to speed of kill and not to success, then they need to get rid of the trinity entirely and give all jobs the same general tools with the same overall potency/power as those that tanks are being given.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

It is really funny how often im reminded that people have no idea what theyre looking at or are talking about when discussing this stuff. Like people don't even recognise cactbot which literally tells them what to do so they don't even have to remember mechanics this is literally just a group of people who have done this fight once maybe twice and now they have a plugin telling them what to do and with that plugin telling them what to do they can perfectly do mechanics and it shows that if you can perfectly do mechanics you do not need a healer because damage output in this game is determinent not consistent. Hell this happens every single raid tier its just been way faster than usual.

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I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There was zero uptime GCD healing by the PLD’s here, literally anyone who can parse purple can do this
And actually locking out healers isn’t the point anyway. The point is that if the PLD can do the healers job for them why do we have TWO healers overloaded with disgustingly overpowered healing

When nascent flash+SIO+DV is doing 80% of the healing in this log then why the actual f……. Does a skill as powerful as seraphism exist on a class that has a damage kit that looks like it’s designed around a healer that spends 95% of the time spamming succor

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They give all this healing to WAR PLD but DRK gets a middle finger.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

SNIP

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Overall while I agree, I am not holding my breath but I do agree. That being said, I would argue that the access to so many rez options while in combat has done more to trivialize content and would rather they just got rid of them from every class that is not a healer and limit it to something like a 10 min cooldown on healer while in combat.

We have already seen what happens when they give roles skills that impact the group that appear to have minimal impact players will just ignore them altogether. To a degree that is what lead SE removing any semblance of aggro management players would not use their aggro dumps, so they shifted from making aggro a group effort into solely the tanks effort.

Even when it comes to CC, if we are being honest only reason we used hard CC like sheep or traps back in the day was because we were bad at the games. Even in classic WoW content were we would use traps largely just boiled down to let is unga bunga it stacks AoE and burn it down if we need to control we will use soft cc like slows and stuff.

For what it is worth and I know people dislike this take but I do think FFXIV is just going down a more causal path that may no longer cater to players that want to be engaged with the content outside of prog.

Edit: This largely boils down to two mindsets. One do you feel it should not be possible to map something out to the point where certain roles it was balanced for are no longer need. IE: 2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps or do you feel that it is okay for people to push the boundaries as to what is possible as so long it does not replace the standard that the content is balanced around.

Personally I do not see much an issue cause overall for most players a healer will always be preferred and needed to clear content. Now I do agree it would be nice to have fun with my role outside of prog and people playing poorly but alas I do not see SE changing that up anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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Well if you want it to seem like I'm attacking you then sure fine, take it that way. Perhaps I should of just simply not quoted anyone but really my point remains the same. No opinions on here matter the games core design is broken, it being broken can't be justified by anyone that's my point. Im sorry if I misinterpreted what you said if thats the case.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

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Well it's mostly because healers are poorly designed and other jobs are over compensating with their healing.
Healers have kits for a game with a lot more constant healing being necessary but this game doesn't have that. The game is designed around determinent and patterned damage, you either take damage for failing a mechanic or it's choreographed raid wides that happen every run the exact same way.

Healers reworked in ShB were reworked as if this would change and it didn't. Instead other roles gained heals that are strong enough to let people survive through the patterned healing. So now healers who do way too low damage and have a low playerbase due to being very boring can be phased out by groups with any sort of communication, and you would do that wouldn't you if you could.
Why take a healer with personal damage so low it takes them longer to beat the MSQ because they take longer to kill mobs. Just take a tank or a DPS who can heal, make a basic plan on where who would use a heal, do one cheese to skip the one healing check in the fight and complete it way faster because you aren't being sandbagged by a weak magical DPS.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

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I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

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Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

Passage of arms and reprisal- AOE mitigations, totally fine, they have no healing effects

Holy Shelton- in my opinion it’s too much healing but let’s leave that aside as personal taste. Let’s look at PLD’s two other main methods of healing; intervention and rotational healing. A PLD presses Holy Spirit/holy circle about 3 times per minute and does a confitier combo for 7 400 potency heals per minute of which you have no agency over, you do then because it’s a DPS gain to press them. Then intervention skill used to protect others, why does this skill also heal the other person (nascent flash and HOC are the same) when it’s on such a short CD and has no downside to the PLD besides robbing you of the ability to cast your own mitigation for the next 20 seconds

Overlap of the roles can be good if it’s balanced well, but HS/NF/DV/HOC/SIO are not well balanced because they are healer level healing CD’s with zero drawbacks to the tank. You can see this in the reverse in that the strongest free single target mitigation the healers can give to the tanks is 15% aquaveil

Sharing of some measure of role responsibility is fine (which is why TBN is perfectly fine being targetable), the rest of the tanks just take it 15 steps too far

If you think giving tanks/dps healing is alright, why don't healers also get tank/dps abilities ? At least it would be fair then. I'm totally on the team that every job damage should be lowered a little bit to be given back to healers and bring them to the same level of tanks. If you don't agree with that I'm sorry to tell you but you are not advocating for balance or crossover responsability. Either everyone should be able to do everything or no one should step out of their specialization too much. Arguing that it is perfectly normal for tanks to make more DPS and have sufficient party healing to keep everyone alive is asinine, it should not even be possible in normal content except under rare circumstances and yet we're seeing that be done on freaking current savage and ultimate.`

At this point I think they should simply drop the masquerade, everyone should be a DPS with some form of specialized utility because that's how the game always has worked. Let "true" DPS have their 20% damage bonus but design tanks as DPS with mitigation and healers as DPS with healing. That's the only reasonnable solution I can see that don't necessitate to rework all content from the ground up. Even if tanks were not as OP as they are right now, healing would still be bland and boring because of encounter design.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why?

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On just the healing part: Division of power. If all the healing potencies were converted into pure shielding, both Divine Veil and Shake it off would be huge, and they were even more powerful. But tbh they would feel more boring since filling health bars feels better. If we had to live without the healing power all together ... well the entire button would feel worse and less impactful all together and like a wasted effort. I doubt a 10% hp shield would be enough to save most dire situations at all.

I have always felt that people do not press addle or feint on their respective dps roles because they cannot see the impact. For the part of the community that does not enrage with mit schedules or combat readers, the imminent impact of the game is what drives behavior.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

On just the healing part: Division of power. If all the healing potencies were converted into pure shielding, both Divine Veil and Shake it off would be huge, and they were even more powerful. But tbh they would feel more boring since filling health bars feels better. If we had to live without the healing power all together ... well the entire button would feel worse and less impactful all together and like a wasted effort. I doubt a 10% hp shield would be enough to save most dire situations at all.

I have always felt that people do not press addle or feint on their respective dps roles because they cannot see the impact. For the part of the community that does not enrage with mit schedules or combat readers, the imminent impact of the game is what drives behavior.

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I mean that’s how the button worked until like 6.3 and if “filling health bars” is how you have fun why aren’t you playing a healer

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean that’s how the button worked until like 6.3 and if “filling health bars” is how you have fun why aren’t you playing a healer

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6.0 added the healing to it.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

6.0 added the healing to it.

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6.3 is when they removed the requirement that someone had to cast a heal to activate it though, so some sacrifice was required until 6.3. Now it's a free heal and shield. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯