Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"How dare you ask that problem A be dealt with when other problems exist?!" is a very wrong way to look at almost anything, let alone when those problems are resolvable separately/independently of balancing concerns across tanks or among the relative contributions of Warrior's kit.

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No strawman, please, I have said none of these words and neither implied them in any way.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which do you actually like then? The gameplay of the tools (unchanged, except in that other Warrior mitigation optimizations might also now be of value), or solely the fact that you uniquely don't need the other roles / render another role redundant in their interactions with you, or a different game approach whereby the "trinity" is softened to a pudding?

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A closed choice is a nice manipulation tactic.
I have proposed solutions that can restore the so holy trinity and pointed out why Bloodwhetting isn't the problem and that nerfing it wouldn't restore the trinity.

I want to keep the current status while restoring the trinity in dungeon, I've provided enough materials to do so.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

You healers need to stop gas lighting yourselves that you're mad at warrior healing. you're mad because your role has been made to push the same trash looking boring gcd filler attacks since shadowbringers. dawntrail tried to remedy this but they chickened out and only gave you something interesting to do on a two minute cooldown. then 90% of fights is glare filler. People that objectively want healing to be fOcUsEd On HeAlInG should go back to wow with your archaic mentality that healers should just be drones to fill health bars. Healing has been the least fun role for 3 expansions now and it sucks. the whole role needs to more engagement outside of heal checks and long cooldown nukes.

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First off um... I'm not really a healer player so idk what you're yapping about. The only healer I kinda experienced was Scholar and that only due to the fact I just farmed dungeon with it to level summoner. I think regardless of your opinion of if healer should be healbot or not, that it kinda stupid you can go a whole dungeon and spam Broil and forget you're supposed to heal people since Warrior can do that job on a 25 sec CD whitout ressources cost.

I mainly play tank and dps and I think that in most content of the game Warrior just get stupid priveledge when it come to just...overall balancing. Paladin is a holy knight who whield white magic, yet it got more limited healing that has cast time and mana management. Warrior also second best in tank dps. Like, you can just grab warrior right now and go to Eureka and even compared to other tank, leveling trought it will be a breeze since it the only class that can solo 6+ mobs and lower level FATE in that content.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Healers waits until there's damage to heal and spam the same button while waiting, that's their gameplay. As long as SQEX gives nothing to do to fill those empty window, you'll see complains.
You can nerf Bloodwhetting, Clemency, Cover and whatever you want, healers will always remain an ungrateful role to play.

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Even if healer gameplay rn is boring with the two button press damage rotation, Healing still should be a big part of their role. Even if you would give them dps rotation, I'd find it kinda stupid that their whole role would be limited to ''yea you're the dude that cast aoe heal when boss do unavoidable damage and you're here to heal people who don't get out of orange puddle''. Like, at that point remove healer and give everyone GW2 type of self sustain.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I'd find it kinda stupid that their whole role would be limited to ''yea you're the dude that cast aoe heal when boss do unavoidable damage and you're here to heal people who don't get out of orange puddle''.

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Even if we nerf Warrior and the tanks, that would remain "the dude who heal people who don't get out of puddles".

Giving them a rotation would copy-paste the recipe applied to tanks who are "the DPS that tank the boss and has mitigation tools". That would work since there's no tank strike.
Healers should focus on the party while the tank should focus on individuals. That's already kind of the case, except dungeons only deal damages on individuals and throws 10 raidwide accross the whole dungeon.

Increase the damage tools, increase the damage received across the party, focus on healer mechanics that requires burst healing.
If we want to go further we could even integrate the cleanse in their toolkit, bring back the aoe cleansing and Esuna would be the last ressort if you missmanaged your tools.
We could even consider having purging abilities that removes buffs from bosses.

Nerfing Warrior won't make healing interesting, and it would be super nice if the non-WAR players would stay in their lane.

I've been looking up characters posting in this thread and it's obscene how many non-WAR players are speaking like they're the mouthpiece of an entire job that they don't even have at max level.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

No strawman, please, I have said none of these words and neither implied them in any way.

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Unless you referred to yourself in the third person earlier and expect to be referred to also as such even in a direct reply, it should be clear that I wasn't referring to you, but rather the poster ("he") whose content we were both talking about.

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A closed choice is a nice manipulation tactic.

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A set of choices presented in a manner closed than it actually is would be a manipulation tactic, yes, but so would a set of choices presented as more open than they actually are. In this case, those choices are (to the honest extent of my understanding) exhaustive among what could/would be changed by dungeon tuning. Presenting anything more than them as relevant (insofar as seems to be remotely reasonable) would be (to my understanding) manipulative conflation.

If you can show why those potential outcomes are not exhaustive, by all means. But don't pretend that focusing on just what outcomes would actually be affected when discussing the effects of change is inherently reductive; by that token, it is at least as arguable that any discussion outside of what would be changed would be a separate issue and/or mere conflation.

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I want to keep the current status while restoring the trinity in dungeon, I've provided enough materials to do so.

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Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

it would be super nice if the non-WAR players would stay in their lane.

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Is this a false flag, or are you really outing yourself (and by association, your job or a portion of its other users) as a whole new level of entitled / unconcerned for broader game health? These are comments on broader balance, not what feels good or what niche optimizations are available in a given Ultimate.

Jobs operate relative to their alternatives and their relative balance can absolutely have an impact on the game. An overpowered job necessarily impacts others (making content more difficult than intended if the OP job is tuned around and other jobs are taken instead or easier than usual if that job is stacked). An underpowered job that content is nonetheless tuned around necessarily impacts others (denying them a need to make full use of their kits / optimize appropriately).

"If you're not presently maxed in job Z, you are not allowed to voice concern for how job Z may impact jobs A-Y" is not a good look, even if we remove the hierarchical vibes there.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Honestly, imma say it some people should of seen the interview with yoshi-p, I believe its from 7.2 and further they are gonna try to make class identities more diverse. For example: PLD be more of the defensive, GNB more dps, DRK more magical defense.

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Those aren't worthwhile identities. Those will merely produce rotating levels of competitiveness based on the fight's damage type and how deep one is into prog -> farm (or, how mistake-prone one's party is). "Diversifying" tanks in that way merely obliges tank players to level all 4 and for each fight to take only 1-2 particular tank jobs for their given degree of progression.

Or, more shortly put, those "identities" would just necessitate more job-leveling grinds while greatly reducing job choice for all tanks.

I do wonder if people here would be so happy if the shoe were on the other foot. If, for example, holy stun didn't have limited uses making all tanks and other healers inferior picks for party compositions in normal content. I mean, that's fine. Right?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

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I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Just look at 24 man raid, healing is still an insanely boring chore yet Warrior kit isn't in that specific situation where Bloodwhetting is broken.
Yet it's still boring to heal and the trinity barely matters! Why is it the case?

Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons, maps and fate that regardless if you have a Warrior or not.
Bloodwhetting shouldn't be nerfed because the complains comes from a kneejerk reaction and would encourage nerf mentality for something so niche.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I do wonder if people here would be so happy if the shoe were on the other foot. If, for example, holy stun didn't have limited uses making all tanks and other healers inferior picks for party compositions in normal content. I mean, that's fine. Right?

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Go ahead.
Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.
DPS would complain if you stun the mobs without letting them nicely pack first.
Healers would complain because they're spamming a single button.

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

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As far as I'm concerned it is not a necessity that tanks must suck in order for healing to be needed, or is it your opinion that tanks needing healer is by definition sucking? As someone said somewhere and I agreed "tanks should be hard to kill" but not impossible. I've done immortality in Star Trek Online in the highest level content that game had and yeah, it was fun for a while but then it got old and boring, it's a big part of why I don't play the game anymore despite being a massive (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT era) Trek fan.

If we intend to keep the healing role, no job should be immortal, it's antithetical to having healers.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

As far as I'm concerned it is not a necessity that tanks must suck in order for healing to be needed, or is it your opinion that tanks needing healer is by definition sucking? As someone said somewhere and I agreed "tanks should be hard to kill" but not impossible. I've done immortality in Star Trek Online in the highest level content that game had and yeah, it was fun for a while but then it got old and boring, it's a big part of why I don't play the game anymore despite being a massive (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT era) Trek fan.

If we intend to keep the healing role, no job should be immortal, it's antithetical to having healers.

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If they intend to keep healing, then I would suggest they get more creative then heal/shield for x.

It's not like the abilities wars have couldnt be given to healers to use on tanks. The complete lack of creativity for healers is why healing sicks...not because of tanks.

Healing sucks fundamentally because healing isn't required in some 70+% of content, if I spend entire duties not healing I might as well go play a DPS. Now, why am I not healing? Healing isn't required. Why is healing not required? Could it have something to do with the principle recipient of healing overhealing themselves already? It just might. I don't have this problem with DRK, more often that not when I pull a DRK in roulettes I get to heal and let me tell you what, that is the highlight of my playtime - I actually get to do what I play healer to do - I get to HEAL.

You know what else fixes the one button monotony? Healing. We have so many healing buttons that if we had to use them and if our "dps filler" were actually filler that'd be great, gone would be the one button monotony people complain about. Further, while I'm thinking about the subject, there's no point in being creative about healing skills when there's no use for them.

Fun heals are fun.

You can heal people besides tanks.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons

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One of the most commonly run content. You're right that WAR is only overpowered in a specific situation, yet that hasn't stopped it from becoming a source of annoyance to players. Seeing a Warrior tank when queueing into a dungeon is pure disappointment. Fixing this won't make healers perfect, but it will make them better.

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Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.

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At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Even if we nerf Warrior and the tanks, that would remain "the dude who heal people who don't get out of puddles".

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False, you would also be the dude who has to keep the tank alive unless you want a party wipe.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

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???

Merely being "reined in to balance", let alone just "not immortal", does not necessitate being "paper".

Not having 7 seconds straight of near-Benediction spam per 25s, and instead again seeing healing reward from your oGCD, AA, and reflective damage, does not make tanking suck.

To your broader point, yes, a tank that seemingly lacks sufficient power to have agency or any control over its survival would be bad, but that is worlds apart from what was requested. Few have even suggested a return to Endwalker levels of healing, which was far from paper anyways, let alone Stormblood or Heavenward. And even those iterations of tanks left them far from paper.

For my part, I felt most engaged when tanking was legitimately difficult, such as when playing Protection Warriors at its squishiest, because there was nonetheless a ton of agency by which to survive and perform our jobs. How? Because passive and/or easy capacity is only a small part of agency.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

One of the most commonly run content. You're right that WAR is only overpowered in a specific situation, yet that hasn't stopped it from becoming a source of annoyance to players. Seeing a Warrior tank when queueing into a dungeon is pure disappointment. Fixing this won't make healers perfect, but it will make them better.


At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

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Personally, I LOVE getting Warrior tanks when I’m healing. It allows me to DPS more, killing mobs faster. I roll my eyes when I get Gunbreakers, especially when they don’t know how to use Superbolide properly.

And as a LONG time healer main who’s only recently started tanking seriously, I relish playing Warrior - it’s actually become my favorite melee job in the game, and Bloodwhetting is party of that experience.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.

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The same is at least as true of your approach. Simply put:

Where (even oGCD) healing doesn't much matter, the problem is that...

1. the healing doesn't matter and healers have nothing else to do with even potential engagement, AND
   
2. that healing increases cannot quite be settled upon simultaneously across ST and MT content for tanks like WAR and for tanks like DRK, therefore denying a workable threshold from which to finally --having removed the prior red herrings about theoretical healing increases great enough to allegedly make Malefic spam therebetween appealing-- handle what downtime remains.

Where (oGCD) healing does matter, the problem is that...

1. the relative waste of GCD heals exacerbates how little else there is with even potential engagement, AND
   
2. that further healing increases to dig into that portion cannot quite be settled upon simultaneously across ST and MT content for tanks like WAR and for tanks like DRK, therefore denying a workable threshold from which to finally --having removed the prior red herrings about theoretical healing increases great enough to allegedly make Malefic spam therebetween appealing-- handle what downtime remains.

The problems are the same, just sampled at different levels of decay.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

False, you would also be the dude who has to keep the tank alive unless you want a party wipe.

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That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

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That remark makes me believe you completely missed the point.
Tanks fits 2 roles, they are DPS and they are tanks.

In Dungeons, Normal mode and 24 man raid, tank buster deals miserable damages. Yet do we see a tank strike?
No, because tanks still have another role to fill.


Go back to my 24 man raid argument where Warrior isn't broken yet healing is still boring. I haven't seen a counter-argument yet.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

(...) where Warrior isn't broken (...)

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Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

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So the tank is not part of the party?

Edit: Suggested reading.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580157

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580074

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

So the tank is not part of the party?

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It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.
Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.

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Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.
The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.
Also why the broken state of BW isn't what makes healing boring.

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.

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That's not what the debate is about, that is just your position.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

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I think I scored everything there was to score, but let me score once again that you say that balance on trash packs doesn't matter, so every time you say you care about balance in dungeons you're lying.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.

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I've not disputed this, indeed I've agreed that it is an area to be addressed, in addition to tank balance.

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Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

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I say "cool, we have healing as effective resist, neat idea", but that's what it should be. It should not be the tank not only negates 100% of damage taken but also overheals itself regularly. Similarly, when any job can solo clear group content (which the exception of Deep Dungeons that have achievements clearly showing they're designed to be solo-ed) synced, that is a problem that needs to be fixed. If all the tanks can do it then all the tanks need to be adjusted in addition to the content because I don't see healers or dps solo-ing synced content. If they were I'd be advocating for that to be fixed.

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Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.

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Why should the game only be interesting during boss/raid fights? I think it's a good idea to return to the days when packs could be threatening, then they could spit out vulns or have major damage attacks for tanks and healers to be aware of.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I think I scored everything there was to score, but let me score once again that you say that balance on trash packs doesn't matter, so every time you say you care about balance in dungeons you're lying.

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Ah yes, be the judge of your own performance and attribute yourself your precious points, what could go wrong.

To say I don't care about dungeon balance is either ignorance or bad faith as I've been advocating to balance the dungeons from the start.
Trashpack are worthless and should be made meaningful just like in criterion where... Would you look at that, Bloodwhetting isn't broken!

Anyone who wants to nerf Bloodwhetting rather than taking a look at the content doesn't care about balance, they care about the healer ego.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Why should the game only be interesting during boss/raid fights? I think it's a good idea to return to the days when packs could be threatening, then they could spit out vulns or have major damage attacks for tanks and healers to be aware of.

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That's what I'm saying from the beginning. Make dungeons more interesting by adding mechanics, things for the healer to do rather than DPS and healing the tank.
Nerfing Bloodwhetting won't fix that, it won't magically make healing funnier or make the healer use their aoe heals.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

To say I don't care about dungeon balance is either ignorance or bad faith as I've been advocating to balance the dungeons from the start.

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At this point I don't know how, nor do I care how you mentally compartmentalize that image of yourself while repeatedly saying balance doesn't matter. Either it matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If you cared about balance in dungeons, and you say you do, and you thought that Bloodwhetting is overpowered/broken in dungeons, and you say you do, then the logical conclusion is to nerf bloodwhetting, whether or not that fixes healers or makes the dungeons engaging or not.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

At this point I don't know how, nor do I care how you mentally compartmentalize that image of yourself while repeatedly saying balance doesn't matter. Either it matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If you cared about balance in dungeons, and you say you do, and you thought that Bloodwhetting to be overpowered/broken in dungeons, and you say you do, then the logical conclusion is to nerf bloodwhetting, whether or not that fixes healers or makes the dungeons engaging or not.

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If that's your only logical conclusion, you lack vision, imagination and the ability to observe a design under multiple perspectives to fully understand the flaws and root of the problem.

Balance will never matter in dungeons, it's their purpose to be easily cleared while putting the minimum effort into it but it doesn't mean I don't care about the design&balance of dungeons.
Balancing jobs so they behave like good boys and good girls who stays in their lines is a mistake. Balancing dungeons themselves to make them more engaging is a preferable solution.

And since Balancing doesn't matter, it's good to have a few broken thing to break the usual pace of XIV.
My point is, seeking perfect job balancing will only sanitize the game and not make it engaging or fun. Tackling the balancing on the dungeon level can allow all jobs to be fun and engaging while not sanitizing the jobs.

Do you understand? It doesn't matter yet it doesn't mean I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Valmaxian

Personally, I LOVE getting Warrior tanks when I’m healing. It allows me to DPS more, killing mobs faster.

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If you run out of OGCD's sure, though I find that to rarely happen if ever. DPS uptime is 100% reguardless of tank, WAR stands out because its self healing is so overtuned that by the time a WAR's HP is low enough to even consider any healing it jumps back to full. Other tanks at least benefit from a healer's presence.

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And as a LONG time healer main who’s only recently started tanking seriously, I relish playing Warrior - it’s actually become my favorite melee job in the game, and Bloodwhetting is party of that experience.

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I can understand liking the healing ability when soloing content, but that still breaks the game so it's not something that should be kept.

If people really want to keep Bloodwhetting as is then mobs need a tool to fight back against it. Amaurot has healing down enemies. If these were added to dungeons with increased healing down and focused on the tank that would go a long way to solving the problem. As long as the mobs causing the effect are around self healing could be reduced to a value like 1% and the tank would also benefit by having to think a little more about healing depending on what enemies are still alive.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

In Dungeons, Normal mode and 24 man raid, tank buster deals miserable damages. Yet do we see a tank strike?
No, because tanks still have another role to fill.

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FF14 is generally low difficulty. Things like TB's are weak in a lot of content and I'd like that to change. It won't address WAR making healers redundant in dungeons though.

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Go back to my 24 man raid argument where Warrior isn't broken yet healing is still boring. I haven't seen a counter-argument yet.

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Alliance raids aren't dungeons. Within dungeons a WAR tank makes the healer role redundant. That's a significant and game breaking problem that can't be fixed by making changings to alliance raids. Alliances also tend to focus more on party wide damage while dungeons do not. You're suggesting to change things to make dungeons the same way, but that only prompts me to ask why take away variety for the sake of a clearly overpowered class? Dungeon pulls are where a party member, the tank, takes a large constant stream of damage. It's a situation mostly unique to dungeons and it's a specific kind of healing that a healer can learn to engage in. Why take it away and double down on the game destroying its own mechanics? I see no good coming from it.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If that's your only logical conclusion, you lack vision, imagination and the ability to observe a design under multiple perspectives to fully understand the flaws and root of the problem.

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I'll grant you that, your solution to one job having one ability that blatantly overperforms on multi-pack pulls in dungeons being removing multi-pack pulls from the dungeons altogether so that using aoe abilities on any job, Warrior included, is a DPS loss, is truly imaginative.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Alliance raids aren't dungeons. Within dungeons a WAR tank makes the healer role redundant. That's a significant and game breaking problem that can't be fixed by making changings to alliance raids. Alliances also tend to focus more on party wide damage while dungeons do not. You're suggesting to change things to make dungeons the same way, but that only prompts me to ask why take away variety for the sake of a clearly overpowered class? Dungeon pulls are where a party member, the tank, takes a large constant stream of damage. It's a situation mostly unique to dungeons and it's a specific kind of healing that a healer can learn to engage in. Why take it away and double down on the game destroying its own mechanics? I see no good coming from it.

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24 man raid are casual battle content. To not take it in account would be cherry-picking, exactly what this thread has been doing.
If you're still unhappy with it, then take in account criterion dungeon or deep dungeon like Eureka Orthos.

Take all data or take none, don't cherry-pick.

I don't get your point about "variety". Fates and Maps exist and use the exact same pattern. We would sacrifice nothing but gain more.

There was a great discussion years ago in WoW about whether a button is fun to push had nothing to do with healing amount.

Example was Circle of healing was a brainless smart heal that was always the best option. Powerful, but not fun.

Stop trying to gimp others to force them to bring you along and calling it fun.

That isn't fun. Current healing isn't fun.

Holy used to be fun.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

There was a great discussion years ago in WoW about whether a button is fun to push had nothing to do with healing amount.

Example was Circle of healing was a brainless smart heal that was always the best option. Powerful, but not fun.

Stop trying to [nerf Bloodwhetting back to when it was less ridiculous but better involved and engaged with the rest of one's kit use] to force them to bring [each role, in a intentionally trinity-based game] along and calling it fun.

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The irony has to be intentional, right?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

24 man raid are casual battle content. To not take it in account would be cherry-picking, exactly what this thread has been doing.
If you're still unhappy with it, then take in account criterion dungeon or deep dungeon like Eureka Orthos.

Take all data or take none, don't cherry-pick.

I don't get your point about "variety". Fates and Maps exist and use the exact same pattern. We would sacrifice nothing but gain more.

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Why are you bringing up things besides dungeons, isn't PyurBlue only talking about dungeons.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

24 man raid are casual battle content. To not take it in account would be cherry-picking, exactly what this thread has been doing.

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Where was I cherry picking? Dungeons work differently than other content and I think it's safe to say that is a design choice and generally accepted by the playerbase. WAR self healing is most problematic in dungeons so it's going to come up in a discussion on why WAR is problematic. Getting a WAR tank in high level roulettes is the least desirable outcome for me when healing and whatever happens in alliance or normal raids doesn't change that.

I'm editing this in to be extra clear. I don't think WAR healing is the only problem with healing at the moment and reducing WAR healing ability isn't meant to fix the entirety of healing. It's meant to fix a class that breaks the role system that FF14 is built around. Tanks that don't requiring healing spoil content where the healer is supposed to heal the tank. This has to be fixed as part of the greater effort to make healing as a whole more fun, unless rebuilding the entire game is being pushed as a realistic solution.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The irony has to be intentional, right?

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BW is powerful but not always the best choice...and you can't spam it like you could CoH.

Not sure if you ate just trying to be picky or just joking around.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

BW is powerful but not always the best choice...and you can't spam it like you could CoH.

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Circle of Healing was a (frequently MP-intensive) CD. It wasn't spammable.

Perhaps you're thinking of Prayer of Healing, the spammable one? But then, that would have generally been the worse choice, the fallback akin to Medica I, rather than something akin to Indomitability/Rapture.

Regardless, though, BW is always the best choice and an overwhelming source of WAR's contribution in the content being discussed. But, as you noted about CoH, that doesn't make it fun. Rather, its excess in strength simply makes other kits (including the remainder of Warrior's own) that bit less fun.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

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Keeping the tank alive mean mobs don't agro the squishy party member and that keep them alive. You can't really make the dps take more damage in a meaningful way with how the fights in game work since the past 10 years. The only way to make healing meaningful is to make it so Tank can't heal themselves so easily.

The game is designed so DPS don't need healing unless they are one failed mechanic away from death or if there a rare unavoidable party damage. That just how it is. The only one taking constant damage is the tank so he the only one who need constant healing.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Circle of Healing was a (frequently MP-intensive) CD. It wasn't spammable.

Perhaps you're thinking of Prayer of Healing, the spammable one? But then, that would have generally been the worse choice, the fallback akin to Medica I, rather than something akin to Indomitability/Rapture.

Regardless, though, BW is always the best choice and an overwhelming source of WAR's contribution in the content being discussed. But, as you noted about CoH, that doesn't make it fun. Rather, its excess in strength simply makes other kits (including the remainder of Warrior's own) that bit less fun.

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No, lol. CoH was an instant and spammable when it was introduced...so was wild growth. They added the cd later.

Loved mending, though...the pinball heal. It was almost spammable...they nerved it though with a cd, too. /sadface

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

No, lol. CoH was an instant and spammable when it was introduced...so was wild growth. They added the cd later.

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So, for <11%, soon to be <9%, of the game's lifetime (as we already know how it will function in TWW). Because they realized how dumb that was and quickly corrected.

As should be done with any heal tuned for a single-target but then allowed to scale linearly with target count. Such as EW-DT Bloodwhetting (whereas Nascent Flash in ShB was extremely strong but at least had a workable scalar).

(Also, no, Wild Growth was not. It both had a CD and, more importantly, was a HoT, making it incomparable to CoH or any other truly spammable heal.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Those aren't worthwhile identities. Those will merely produce rotating levels of competitiveness based on the fight's damage type and how deep one is into prog -> farm (or, how mistake-prone one's party is). "Diversifying" tanks in that way merely obliges tank players to level all 4 and for each fight to take only 1-2 particular tank jobs for their given degree of progression.

Or, more shortly put, those "identities" would just necessitate more job-leveling grinds while greatly reducing job choice for all tanks.

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I did say those tanks as example cause GNB and DRK have magic defense in thier kit evne though GNB has one and PLD has shieldtron, cover, intervene, sentinel, and divine veilf or a shield. I mean if other jobs had more diversity that would be nice to see so it snot some of teh same classes i usually see when doing content.